Cid Kagenou 2-C Upgrade!

[TheHyperGuy]

Cid Kagenou, my Lord Shadow, is quite possibly Low-Multiversal. I can't believe no one has even tried to make this argument before, but I'm willing to put it forward.

It start's with the Black Rose

Where Does the Black Rose Scale?​

The black rose is an interdimensional gate between two universes/realms that are separated both spatially and Temporally. Considering the fact that we have Minoru's home planet showcasing a drastically slower flow of time, only 2 years passing on earth while 15 years passed in this new world.

Now the difference in time flow wouldn't matter too much without the evidence prior that the worlds are concluded as Different realms, and it was stated this isn't talking about outer space or other planets, so clearly these are disconnected universes as the manga states. Every once in a while, these realms "collide" with each other by pure coincident. However, there is a key, the ring, which is stated to "open the door" implying the black rose.

This is different than the black rose "accidently" appearing due to universes just colliding at random, but this meant that the Cult was able to force the black rose to open. Since the Ring opened the black rose, therefore doing this by force. This should mean that what was done by "accident" in the past, is now able to be done purposefully with the key. Why does this matter?

Considering the black rose can "force" 2 separate universes to "collide" and therefore connect them, it should scale the Black Rose to 2-C, via "significantly affecting" two space-times.

This might be semantical from the look of things, but Mordred makes it clear, that these collisions are uncommon and random when the realms move around a specific center and slam into each other. And considering the Cult has researched this they would be the authority figures on this. Even noting that other realms exist and Demons and beast do come out of them. So I don't really expect myself needing to defend why Mordred would be quite knowledgeable on this topic.

How Does Cid Scale to This?​

Simple, he was blatantly stated to destroy the black rose with his "mighty attack". The black rose should easily be proven to be shattered thanks to the key being shattered as a result of the Black Rose shattering, signifying more of the connection between them.

Wouldn't this Upscale the Verse too Much?​

No, because there's only 1 character that scale to this because they are the only one able to produce power like "I AM ATOMIC." And that's shadow. Iris even makes it clear that power is nothing any human could manage. And it's implied that no one else could even replicate that attack, other than possibly Aurora who has tried to cast it, but failed. And considering she had the ability to destroy the world, which would probably just refer to the planet, and not the actual universe, her power is supported. Even if Aurora can't Destroy the Planet, Cid probably could if his "rising atomic" was aimed at it, instead of away, and It would still add some validity to only Shadow scaling to this feat.

But then what about those that damage Cid? Well, we all know that Cid can boost his defenses; here, here, here and here. And with the Iris statements, it's clear no one known has the power to rival Cid Kagenou, and no one else in the verse has even came close to the same feat's, it's safe to say, when Cid isn't channeling his power through his body, his durability wouldn't equal his atomic, as he always covers his body in magic to protect himself. So his durability should also scale to his atomic in use when he channels magic to defend himself, and without magic to defend himself, he should stay with his regular durability.

So it should look like this (changes in purple);​

Spoiler: Upgrade

Attack Potency: At least Wall Level without magic (He optimized his body to be as efficient in combat as possible, should upscale Claire who could break her own bones while her magic was sealed, is stronger than Alexia who could tank a hit that pulverized a table and sent her flying to a wall), Large Mountain Level with magic (Cleared the rain with his magic), Large Mountain Level+ when applying magic on his attacks (he is able to apply the same level of magic in a "point" than a "surface" allowing himself to increase the piercing power of the attack, for instance, Beta, by applying this technique, was able to one shot someone who prior was completely undamaged by her attacks), Multi-Continent level with I AM ATOMIC (His strongest attack, Cid charges up way more magic than his usual attacks increasing the output drastically, it was shown to reach this level of energy, Cid when he was just a kid performed this feat with Rising Atomic), Low Multiversal level with I AM ATOMIC (In his fight between Ragnarök and Mordred, he shattered the black rose. A gate which forces two universes to collide and connect with each other. These universes are spatially and temporally separated.)
...
Durability: At least Wall Level without magic (He optimized his body to be as efficient in combat as possible), Large Mountain level+ when applying magic to his defense (Can apply the same technique he uses to increase the piercing power of his attacks for defense), possible Low Multiversal level when applying magic to his defense (equal to his power in destroying the black rose.)

This might upgrade Cid Kagenou quite high, but I feel my reasoning and evidence is sound enough to at least make the argument. We already have his atomic reaching deep into outer space in his local solar system, as a kid too, which theoretically if that'd hit any planets, it'd suck.

Agree:

Neutral:

Disagree:

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

Hard disagree because why does destroying the Gate between dimensions L2-C? This is just destroying the connection between the 2 dimensions, not destroying the whole dimension itself. This is like destroying the wardrobe connecting to Earth and Narnia and the wardrobe itself is barely wall level.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Hard disagree because why does destroying the Gate between dimensions? This is just destroying the connection not destroying the whole dimension itself. This is like destroying the wardrobe connecting to Earth and Narnia and the wardrobe itself is barely wall level.

Because like I explained why the Black rose would scale to it. If a man dragged two rocks to himeslf, he would have to have the power/energy to do so.

In this way, the black rose dragging two universes together, and having them collide would be no different.

We could also just go with the idea that it uses gravity to do so, and having to have enough gravitational force to pull two universes, should equate to that amount of energy. Considering it does end up creating a black hole upon it being destroyed, which is a gravitational type phenomon

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

Because like I explained why the Black rose would scale to it. If a man dragged two rocks to himeslf, he would have to have the power/energy to do so.

In this way, the black rose dragging two universes together, and having them collide would be no different.

We could also just go with the idea that it uses gravity to do so, and having to have enough gravitational force to pull two universes, should equate to that amount of energy. Considering it does end up creating a black hole upon it being destroyed, which is a gravitational type phenomon

Your 'dragging two rocks' analogy fundamentally misinterprets the mechanism. The Black Rose isn't applying brute force to move two entire universes through a void. The black rose is more like a lock pick where it finds a spot where the universes are already naturally brushing against each other and just opens a door. This is just a feat of spatial manipulation hax with Low 2-C Range, not Multiversal Attack Potency. Destroying the lock pick( the black rose) does proves Cid can negate Low 2-C hax, but it does not mean his raw destructive output is equivalent to the total mass-energy of two space-time continuums. You are conflating the scale of an effect with the energy required to achieve it; a key that opens a vault between two universes is not itself as durable or powerful as the universes it connects. Cid broke the key, not the vaults it connects. I only agree that the Black rose is Low 2-C range

 

[TheHyperGuy]

he black rose is more like a lock pick where it finds a spot where the universes are already naturally brushing against each other and just opens a door.

Again, I already differentiated it happening "accidently" and it being "forced" to appear. The Force part is what my premise relies on, not the accidental part.

This is just a feat of spatial manipulation hax with Low 2-C Range, not Multiversal Attack Potency.

So if a a gravitational ability drags a planet towards another, and you destroy that attack that is capable of doing that, would your attack now not scale to the ability that can drag two planets towards each other? Cause the attack must have equal or greater energy to offset and nullify such an ability in my eyes,

You are conflating the scale of an effect with the energy required to achieve it; a key that opens a vault between two universes is not itself as durable or powerful as the universes it connects.

But if the lock is literally pulling two spaces together that weren't connected to begin with, it would be different. Again, If I pull two rocks towards me, I would have to have the energy to make that happen. So when the black rose is "forced" to open, it must do the same thing, because the "accidental" opening is when the two universe collide without external help.

So why would the black rose, via the key, not have forced two universes to collide?

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

Again, I already differentiated it happening "accidently" and it being "forced" to appear. The Force part is what my premise relies on, not the accidental part.

You're indeed correct about the 'forced' distinction, but you're assuming 'force' means raw energy. It's more accurate to say the Black Rose forces a synchronization or enforces a stable connection using hax, like a router forcing a WiFi connection. It's not physically dragging the universes with kinetic force.

So if a a gravitational ability drags a planet towards another, and you destroy that attack that is capable of doing that, would your attack now not scale to the ability that can drag two planets towards each other? Cause the attack must have equal or greater energy to offset and nullify such an ability in my eyes,

It would scale to the energy of the gravitational beam itself, not the planets. For example; A tractor beam that moves a planet doesn't have planet-level durability but you could disrupt it with a much smaller explosion. Cid destroyed the tractor beam (the portal), not the planets ( universes)

But if the lock is literally pulling two spaces together that weren't connected to begin with, it would be different. Again, If I pull two rocks towards me, I would have to have the energy to make that happen. So when the black rose is "forced" to open, it must do the same thing, because the "accidental" opening is when the two universe collide without external help.

This is the core misunderstanding. The lock isn't pulling them. It's merging them at a point where they are already in close dimensional proximity. This is like the difference between using a giant magnet to pull two ships together and using a teleport device to swap a piece of each ship's hull. The energy requirements are incomparable.

So why would the black rose, via the key, not have forced two universes to collide?

Due to lack of cosmic-sized collateral damages prove it didn’t. You forcing two universes to collide with kinetic force would release energy that vaporizes both. So is more lean towards spatial hax, not universal level raw power, It mearly forced a gateway to form, not a collision.

The whole point of the Low 2-C is the collide part and he colliding is the critical misunderstanding. The narrative literally suggests universes naturally and rarely align or 'collide', this isn't a force the Black Rose generates. If it were, the energy required to forcibly slam two universes together would be immeasurably beyond Low 2-C and would destroy everything. Instead, the Black Rose is a control mechanism; it doesn't create the collision, it exploits this natural, momentary alignment to stitch or form a stable gateway.

In conclusion, the Black Rose is just one type of phenomenon related to the natural universal collision but it doesn’t describe as destroying universes, merging worlds permanently, creating/shaping a space-time continuum or the structure of the universe. It is simply a gate or a connection event

 

[TheHyperGuy]

You're indeed correct about the 'forced' distinction, but you're assuming 'force' means raw energy. It's more accurate to say the Black Rose forces a synchronization or enforces a stable connection using hax, like a router forcing a WiFi connection. It's not physically dragging the universes with kinetic force.

I don't think that is implied at all within the narrative I have seen. The scans I showed about the black rose, mentioned it was unstable because it was done via force. But how would the universes collide if the key never activated the black rose? Cause if the Mordred is correct in saying these realms orbit a point, and then "happen" to hit each other, this means that they aren't near each other to collide majority of the time. So if something was to force that connection, then by extension it means, They require energy in order to do it.

For example, if a god grabbed two universes and pressed them together, there would be no argument whether he was low multi because it's blatant. My premise is to suggest this was down in a way that DOES require raw energy or gravitational force.

It would scale to the energy of the gravitational beam itself, not the planets. For example; A tractor beam that moves a planet doesn't have planet-level durability but you could disrupt it with a much smaller explosion. Cid destroyed the tractor beam (the portal), not the planets ( universes)

But the tractor beam still had enough pull to grab planets and drag them towards each other. Even if we assume the low end interpretation, this is still relative to a planet level feat. In the same breath, pulling two UNIVERSES, would be a much more astronomical feat, and trying to calculate how much energy that'd take would just not really matter since, it still would be relative to two universes.

This is the core misunderstanding. The lock isn't pulling them. It's merging them at a point where they are already in close dimensional proximity.

But if they were already close enough to open the black rose accidently, then why was it implied that the key was the one to "open the door" meaning force the black rose open. It's just be a random happening instead of something planned by the cult. So there would need to be justifiable evidence that they were close enough to enact the black rose without the ring/key, which isn't supported narratively.

This is like the difference between using a giant magnet to pull two ships together and using a teleport device to swap a piece of each ship's hull. The energy requirements are incomparable.

I think transferring something through space would require a lot of energy itself. But again, this is based on whether or not the black rose forcibly pulled two universes together, or simply existed when the collision occurred, which I don't see any implication for the latter being the case.

Due to lack of cosmic-sized collateral damages prove it didn’t. You forcing two universes to collide with kinetic force would release energy that vaporizes both.

But inverse, this happened once and that issue never occurred, so this claim seems to be more of an appeal to reality then anything.

If we take your claim without the fallacy, you seem to disagree with how Mordred described the collision, so what makes you doubt his words? Cause if his words are to be taken as true, two worlds collided multiple times, to bring magic in the world, and the Velgalta kingdom incident. So why wasn't the World ripped to cosmic dust during those situations unless you disagree with Mordred's proposal.

The whole point of the Low 2-C is the collide part and he colliding is the critical misunderstanding. The narrative literally suggests universes naturally and rarely align or 'collide', this isn't a force the Black Rose generates. If it were, the energy required to forcibly slam two universes together would be immeasurably beyond Low 2-C and would destroy everything. Instead, the Black Rose is a control mechanism; it doesn't create the collision, it exploits this natural, momentary alignment to stitch or form a stable gateway.

The narrative also suggest the ring made the black rose occur, without it being natural at all. The Cult knew what they were doing, was able to control the black rose, although slightly, and it specifically states that the last time the black rose occurred, it was by pure accident. However, they specifically imply they are controlling it this time, therefore they made it happen, using a key, which forced it to appear. Which would then mean the black rose pulled two universes together to collide and make the connection.

 

[Zefra3011]

Disagree. The collisions are figurative, and it's just a way to say the universes connect. It's not like the universes make a car accident.

Also, even if this gets accepted, it won't scale to durability. It was accepted during his rework of the profile that he can decide the targets of I Am Atomic. Reason why Alexia was undamaged while Zenon was literally deatomized during the first.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

The collisions are figurative

What supports this claim? Cause if they orbit a point, and then happens to touch and connect, would that not be collision?

Not trying to disagree, but in the manga, they show the realms running into each other, unless that is not to be take as canon.

 

[PhantomØ4]

The collisions are not figurative as far as we know? But there's another issue. Uhhhh, the issue of scaling Shadow to it aside too lol.

This thread is heavily extrapolating the gate that the ring is causing universes to collide in order to create the gate. That much is not said from what I recall and do not see present in the scans... but in short what the OP did was:

Universes coming close and colliding causes them to link up and can cause these inter-dimensional rifts to appear.

The ring can cause the universes to link up to open a inter-dimensional rift.

Thus the ring must cause universes to collide in order to link them up.

The issue is that it's not necessarily true. The mechanism behind the gate by all info we have simply links up the worlds without causing them to collide as the former is not a requisite... and when it's referred to an event is referred to be of the same sort as the night that a gazillion people died I am PRETTY SURE it's strictly talking about the effects of the gate and ***** pouring out of it... as re-creating that tragic event of magical beasts pouring out was the aim of the cult and it's a bit disingenuous to try to pass it off as it talking about the mechanism being the same.

If it caused universes to collide the gate becoming unstable would have not sent Shadow back to his own world instead of the world Ragnarock came from which's far as I recall is not the same as Shadow's original word.

Won't respond any further unless additional scans are provided or I am pointed out to misremember something as my aim is not to waste my time to change your mind, just inform third party readers.

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

I don't think that is implied at all within the narrative I have seen. The scans I showed about the black rose, mentioned it was unstable because it was done via force. But how would the universes collide if the key never activated the black rose? Cause if the Mordred is correct in saying these realms orbit a point, and then "happen" to hit each other, this means that they aren't near each other to collide majority of the time. So if something was to force that connection, then by extension it means, They require energy in order to do it.

For example, if a god grabbed two universes and pressed them together, there would be no argument whether he was low multi because it's blatant. My premise is to suggest this was down in a way that DOES require raw energy or gravitational force.


But the tractor beam still had enough pull to grab planets and drag them towards each other. Even if we assume the low end interpretation, this is still relative to a planet level feat. In the same breath, pulling two UNIVERSES, would be a much more astronomical feat, and trying to calculate how much energy that'd take would just not really matter since, it still would be relative to two universes.


But if they were already close enough to open the black rose accidently, then why was it implied that the key was the one to "open the door" meaning force the black rose open. It's just be a random happening instead of something planned by the cult. So there would need to be justifiable evidence that they were close enough to enact the black rose without the ring/key, which isn't supported narratively.

I think transferring something through space would require a lot of energy itself. But again, this is based on whether or not the black rose forcibly pulled two universes together, or simply existed when the collision occurred, which I don't see any implication for the latter being the case.


But inverse, this happened once and that issue never occurred, so this claim seems to be more of an appeal to reality then anything.

If we take your claim without the fallacy, you seem to disagree with how Mordred described the collision, so what makes you doubt his words? Cause if his words are to be taken as true, two worlds collided multiple times, to bring magic in the world, and the Velgalta kingdom incident. So why wasn't the World ripped to cosmic dust during those situations unless you disagree with Mordred's proposal.


The narrative also suggest the ring made the black rose occur, without it being natural at all. The Cult knew what they were doing, was able to control the black rose, although slightly, and it specifically states that the last time the black rose occurred, it was by pure accident. However, they specifically imply they are controlling it this time, therefore they made it happen, using a key, which forced it to appear. Which would then mean the black rose pulled two universes together to collide and make the connection.

This is my last reply because your entire premise is built on a single, unproven assumption that the word "force" in this context must mean the application of raw, universe-level kinetic energy. The narrative evidence, however, consistently points to a different conclusion.

Firstly, on the nature of "force", You claim the Black Rose must be physically dragging the universes together. But the mechanism shown is one of precision and control, not brute strength. The natural "collisions" are a pre-existing, cyclical cosmic event like the alignment of celestial bodies. The key and the Cult's ritual don't generate this event; they are likely to hijack its timing. The "force" is applied to the activation mechanism, not the spacetime or the cosmos itself. This is like the difference between waiting for a solar eclipse and pressing a button to cause one on demand. The button doesn't move the planets/universes; it precisely triggers a pre-programmed alignment. The "instability" noted in the scans is the result of the Cult's imperfect control over this incredibly precise magical process, not the uncontrolled release of kinetic force.

Secondly, the flawed "tractor beam" analogy part: You insist that moving universes requires energy relative to their mass. This fundamentally misidentifies the mechanism. The Black Rose isn't a tractor beam pulling physical objects; it is a dimensional tool creating a localized wormhole. The energy required is for the act of warping space-time to create a bridge, not for moving theinfinite mass on either side of it. To use a simple analogy: the energy required to puncture a hole in a balloon does not scale with the volume of air inside. Similarly, the energy to open a dimensional gateway is not equivalent to the mass-energy of the universes it connects. Cid destroyed the gateway generator, not the universes it.

Lastly, the lack of destruction: You dismiss this as an "appeal to reality," but it is, in fact, the most critical appeal to narrative consistency. The story's own internal logic defines the rules. Mordred explicitly states that these "collisions" have happened multiple times in the past. The result was never the destruction of the world, but rather the transfer of magic, demons, and beings. Therefore, the term "collision" in this universe is defined by the author as a non-destructive, spatial alignment event. For you to claim that this specific collision was a universe-shattering impact is to make an extraordinary claim that directly contradicts the established lore. The burden of proof is on you to provide evidence from the narrative that this event was different in kind, not just in its trigger.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

I'll only respond to this because it's a good counter argument imo

If it caused universes to collide the gate becoming unstable would have not sent Shadow back to his own world instead of the world Ragnarock came from which's far as I recall is not the same as Shadow's original word.

How so? If the gate to the world Ragnarock was broken, as it was stated that the black rose was, then why would it link back to the same place? I can see this perspective, but it was a black hole that dragged Shadow in, after the black rose was destroyed. This black hole was just a tear in space, since the gate was shattered, there's no reason to suspect the black hole would've gone to the same place. And since it wasn't a formed gate, it likely could've just been sending him blindly not necessarily to a specific universe.

 

[Zefra3011]

What supports this claim? Cause if they orbit a point, and then happens to touch and connect, would that not be collision?

Not trying to disagree, but in the manga, they show the realms running into each other, unless that is not to be take as canon.

In the manga is Mordered creating particles of magic to explain it what he's saying. But it doesn't mean the collisions in his explaination are literal. I would expect much more destruction if two universes collide, since you are claiming it would be similar to two cars or two planets colliding to each others.

I would personally just when for new contents about it, rather than jumping on conclusion with only a short explaination about all this.

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

In the manga is Mordered creating particles of magic to explain it what he's saying. But it doesn't mean the collisions in his explaination are literal. I would expect much more destruction if two universes collide, since you are claiming it would be similar to two cars or two planets colliding to each others.

I would personally just when for new contents about it, rather than jumping on conclusion with only a short explaination about all this.

I honestly find it only low 2-C in range or spatial hax but Not AP because I haven’t seen a single evidence that he gives us that can destroy the universes because collide ≠ destruction in this narrative since it only implies that it is a Inter-Dimensional gate.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

This is my last reply because your entire premise is built on a single, unproven assumption that the word "force" in this context must mean the application of raw, universe-level kinetic energy. The narrative evidence, however, consistently points to a different conclusion.

Firstly, on the nature of "force", You claim the Black Rose must be physically dragging the universes together. But the mechanism shown is one of precision and control, not brute strength. The natural "collisions" are a pre-existing, cyclical cosmic event like the alignment of celestial bodies. The key and the Cult's ritual don't generate this event; they are likely to hijack its timing. The "force" is applied to the activation mechanism, not the spacetime or the cosmos itself. This is like the difference between waiting for a solar eclipse and pressing a button to cause one on demand. The button doesn't move the planets/universes; it precisely triggers a pre-programmed alignment. The "instability" noted in the scans is the result of the Cult's imperfect control over this incredibly precise magical process, not the uncontrolled release of kinetic force.

Secondly, the flawed "tractor beam" analogy part: You insist that moving universes requires energy relative to their mass. This fundamentally misidentifies the mechanism. The Black Rose isn't a tractor beam pulling physical objects; it is a dimensional tool creating a localized wormhole. The energy required is for the act of warping space-time to create a bridge, not for moving theinfinite mass on either side of it. To use a simple analogy: the energy required to puncture a hole in a balloon does not scale with the volume of air inside. Similarly, the energy to open a dimensional gateway is not equivalent to the mass-energy of the universes it connects. Cid destroyed the gateway generator, not the universes it.

Lastly, the lack of destruction: You dismiss this as an "appeal to reality," but it is, in fact, the most critical appeal to narrative consistency. The story's own internal logic defines the rules. Mordred explicitly states that these "collisions" have happened multiple times in the past. The result was never the destruction of the world, but rather the transfer of magic, demons, and beings. Therefore, the term "collision" in this universe is defined by the author as a non-destructive, spatial alignment event. For you to claim that this specific collision was a universe-shattering impact is to make an extraordinary claim that directly contradicts the established lore. The burden of proof is on you to provide evidence from the narrative that this event was different in kind, not just in its trigger.

The let this be my last conclusive response to these claims;

1. The only way for this "triggering a pre-programmed alignment" to work is by pre-supposing that the dimensions are close enough for this connection to be made to begin with. Which if they are, then the connection would happen regardless of external help, so the whole plot point about the ring being important to summoning the black rose, is just thrown out of the entire narrative, via that line of logic.
2. But in order for the universes to create a connection they must "collide" or be touching, which is my whole point. I'm pretty sure my whole argument is the Gate causing two universes to move towards each other. That's it, the collision part is just an effect of that cause. It would still require so much energy to pull even one of these universes towards another. Which would then lead it to be at least L2-C (messed up the tier numbers), because one universe has to be pulled in order for the collision to occur.
3. Why does there have to be destruction? "2-C: Low Multiverse level
   Characters or objects that can significantly affect, create and/or destroy small multiverses composed of two to a thousand separate space-time continuums, or an equivalent." I'm arguing for significantly affecting, and I'm pretty sure dragging two universes would imply such.

I would expect much more destruction if two universes collide, since you are claiming it would be similar to two cars or two planets colliding to each others.

Even despite the collision, two universes being dragged would call for 2-C, which is my premise. The collision is just an effect from the cause of being dragged.

he gives us that can destroy the universes because collide ≠ destruction in this narrative since it only implies that it is a Inter-Dimensional gate.

Destruction isn't the only way to scale to such heights.

 

[Zefra3011]

Even despite the collision, two universes being dragged would call for 2-C, which is my premise. The collision is just an effect from the cause of dragged.

My point is that we don't know if they physically move and it's a metaphor to explain things ending up in another dimension when these "collide" (or connect somehow), or they actually move and collide physically (without causing destruction) pickpocketing each others in the while.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

In the manga is Mordered creating particles of magic to explain it what he's saying. But it doesn't mean the collisions in his explaination are literal.

He's simply showing what it would look like considering all the knowledge he knows. What reason do we have to suggest it isn't literal?

My point is that we don't know if they physically move and it's a metaphor to explain things ending up in another dimension when these "collide" (or connect somehow), or they actually move and collide physically (without causing destruction) pickpocketing each others in the while.

So we know a few things;

1. They orbit a center, who knows what that center is
2. They sometimes get close enough to "collide" during their orbit
3. This "collision" causing the two universes to become linked

In what point in Mordred explanation, denotes the idea they aren't physically moving? He said they "Orbit" a center, which requires movement. Then when they move, they "collide" with each other rarely at random. What if the gate just causes a buffer and stops them from causing any destruction? It would still qualify for significantly affecting two universes and negate the idea that destruction would be required after collision. The black rose would then be stopping them both from physically touching and be the connection between them.

 

[Voidnether]

If you destroy a structure that's capable of linking space-times, that alone wouldn't give you anything but if you're capable of destroying the space-times within then yeah it's 2-C

Heck, them colliding is an anti-feat but like if these universes are separate space-times then yeah it's easily 2-C

 

[SeijiSetto]

what makes it tier 2 instead of tier 3
if they can be physically connected by dragging them around doesn't that just make them spatially separated
and what part of it is relating to the entire timeline that would push it from tier 3 into tier 2

 

[TheHyperGuy]

If you destroy a structure that's capable of linking space-times, that alone wouldn't give you anything but if you're capable of destroying the space-times within then yeah it's 2-C

My argument is;
Black rose drags two universes = 2-C
Cid destroys black rose = 2-C

The black rose having enough energy to pull and connect two universes is my premise for the scaling.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

what makes it tier 2 instead of tier 3
if they can be physically connected by dragging them around doesn't that just make them spatially separated
and what part of it is relating to the entire timeline that would push it from tier 3 into tier 2

Them being referred to as separate universes/realms and having different time flows. 15 years in one realm, 2 in another. That just supports the evidence of temporal disconnect. Now I can understand counter argument for them not being temporally disconnected because of no blatant statement of different timelines, but that's implied by the speed at which each realm goes through time. Wouldn't make sense for that to happen under the same timeline.

 

[Voidnether]

My argument is;
Black rose drags two universes = 2-C
Cid destroys black rose = 2-C

The black rose having enough energy to pull and connect two universes is my premise for the scaling.

Aight yeah no, black rose would have Immeasurable LS but the size of black rose itself is unquantifiable. Like I said, if there's a structure that's able to link space-times and you destroy that structure, at best it's just range

Honkai: Star Rail — Immeasurable LS, potentially Tier 2

First, the Century Gate enables instantaneous travel across the vast world of Amphoreus and even through different spacetimes. Trianne opened the Century Gate and tried to pull the Flame Reaver inside. However, the Flame Reaver resisted before Castorice managed to pull it into the Century Gate...

vsbattles.com

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Aight yeah no, black rose would have Immeasurable LS but the size of black rose itself is unquantifiable. Like I said, if there's a structure that's able to link space-times and you destroy that structure, at best it's just range

Honkai: Star Rail — Immeasurable LS, potentially Tier 2

First, the Century Gate enables instantaneous travel across the vast world of Amphoreus and even through different spacetimes. Trianne opened the Century Gate and tried to pull the Flame Reaver inside. However, the Flame Reaver resisted before Castorice managed to pull it into the Century Gate...

vsbattles.com

Would a structure, based on gravity, not have to be able to handle it's own pull and the weight of 2 universal space-times?

EDIT: Also, the way your portal you brought is explained, is not like how it's explained in EIS

 

[SeijiSetto]

Them being referred to as separate universes/realms and having different time flows. 15 years in one realm, 2 in another. That just supports the evidence of temporal disconnect. Now I can understand counter argument for them not being temporally disconnected because of no blatant statement of different timelines, but that's implied by the speed at which each realm goes through time. Wouldn't make sense for that to happen under the same timeline.

see:

It should be noted that variations in the flow of time, such as faster or slower rates, do not necessarily indicate the existence of separate universes or space-time continuums. This phenomenon can occur within a single universe or pocket dimension, and therefore does not serve as sufficient evidence for the existence of multiple universes or space-time continuums.

if that's the only evidence then this paragraph explicitly disqualifies that

 

[Zefra3011]

I'm not the best for these tiers but would the Black Rose's durability scale to tier 3-2 because its Ap does? Like, if I have a technology that can destroy a universe, and I destroy it, it means I can destroy that machine rather than showing its same level of Ap. Wouldn't it apply to the Black Rose as well?

 

[Voidnether]

Would a structure, based on gravity, not have to be able to handle it's own pull and the weight of 2 universal space-times?

I mean, it's NPI to space-time at best unless that structure actually serves as a container (see how hyperspace or hypertimeline works)

 

[Voidnether]

I'm not the best for these tiers but would the Black Rose's durability scale to tier 3-2 because its Ap does? Like, if I have a technology that can destroy a universe, and I destroy it, it means I can destroy that machine rather than showing its same level of Ap. Wouldn't it apply to the Black Rose as well?

Yeah but in this case you would have 3-A through said technology, if someone destroyed the machine then you just lose access to that

 

[TheHyperGuy]

if that's the only evidence then this paragraph explicitly disqualifies that

I'm adding it as supporting evidence, not primary. I already have the evidence they are different universes, the different time flows just add on why they would be separate temporally as well as spatially.

 

[Zefra3011]

Yeah but in this case you would have 3-A through said technology, if someone destroyed the machine then you just lose access to that

I see, thanks. Then Shadow shouldn't scale to it, nor can use its power in any way as for now.

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

Would a structure, based on gravity, not have to be able to handle it's own pull and the weight of 2 universal space-times?

EDIT: Also, the way your portal you brought is explained, is not like how it's explained in EIS

It can, but it’s not tiering but pure hax since it the Mechanism is Precision-Based, Not Power-Based.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Like, if I have a technology that can destroy a universe, and I destroy it, it means I can destroy that machine rather than showing its same level of Ap. Wouldn't it apply to the Black Rose as well?

I don't see that being equally comparable. If that device managed to survive inside the universe as it was being destroyed, that would be what I'm arguing. Since The black rose would have to have the energy/pull on these universes, and with new interpretation, stop them from colliding to cause physical damage to either universe.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

It can, but it’s not tiering but pure hax since it the Mechanism is Precision-Based, Not Power-Based.

Again, why would it need to be precision?

If the universes were close enough to just form a connection, then the connection would've been formed without external help, which throws the ring plot out the narrative as it doesn't mean anything anymore.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

I mean, it's NPI to space-time at best unless that structure actually serves as a container (see how hyperspace or hypertimeline works)

So an object that pulls two universes together, manages to not be destroyed when it's serving as a connection to two colliding universes, that now (with recent interpretation) must be shouldering the weight of these two universes to make sure they don't physically cause damage to each other, and that scales no where?

I'll use my premise in an analogy, one that I already stated.

If a god, decides to drag two universes towards each other and make them touch, does that god scale to 2-C?

 

[Zefra3011]

Wait, you can't assume the Black Rose was between the collision and tanked the impact. If that's what you are arguing, there's no proof.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Wait, you can't assume the Black Rose was between the collision and tanked the impact. If that's what you are arguing, there's no proof.

There's no proof the universes never collided either, but that's been thrown around this whole thread as "not literal".

Each counter argument has made massive assumptions to justify the position. So I don't think adding an assumption of equal interpretation for myself is wrong to do.

 

[PhantomØ4]

I'll only respond to this because it's a good counter argument imo

How so? If the gate to the world Ragnarock was broken, as it was stated that the black rose was, then why would it link back to the same place? I can see this perspective, but it was a black hole that dragged Shadow in, after the black rose was destroyed. This black hole was just a tear in space, since the gate was shattered, there's no reason to suspect the black hole would've gone to the same place. And since it wasn't a formed gate, it likely could've just been sending him blindly not necessarily to a specific universe.

Just gonna point out that this just furthers that the universes do not need to be dragged into a collision in order to connect them btw and the black rose trying to be scaled never mentions dragging the universe to link them, it simply links them and causes the same effect.

 

[Zefra3011]

There's no proof the universes never collided either, but that's been thrown around this whole thread as "not literal".

Each counter argument has made massive assumptions to justify the position. So I don't think adding an assumption of equal interpretation for myself is wrong to do.

Well, you are making the positive claim, I initially merely said there's another possibility.

If you say your argument relies on a assumption I don't think there's much to discuss.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Just gonna point out that this just furthers that the universes do not need to be dragged into a collision in order to connect them btw and the black rose trying to be scaled never mentions dragging the universe to link them, it simply links them and causes the same effect.

What brought Cid to his original world, is not what brought Ragnarok into the main world. Cid specifically mentioned a black hole, and the black rose never exhibited black hole qualities until after it was destroyed.

For the dragging, it's just simple line of logic.

1. Universes orbit a center
2. They randomly collide sometimes
3. This collision causes a connection

If the method of creating a connection is for these universes to physically move and touch/collide with each other, then if this connection is forced upon, there's really only one interpretation, or at least One I can see, is that the universes are pulled into each other to touch and make the connection.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Well, you are making the positive claim, I initially merely said there's another possibility.

If you say your argument relies on a assumption I don't think there's much to discuss.

So can I not apply that same refutation to nearly every reply I've gotten? Since nearly each of them relies on assumptions?

 

[PhantomØ4]

What brought Cid to his original world, is not what brought Ragnarok into the main world. Cid specifically mentioned a black hole, and the black rose never exhibited black hole qualities until after it was destroyed.

I am saying that there is no need for the universes to dragged into collision, it is never mentioned as a pre-requisite, just 1 way it can happen and within the same volume it's proved to not be needed with the black hole... there is no requirement for the universe collision and THUS why assuming:

For the dragging, it's just simple line of logic.

1. Universe orbit a center
2. The randomly collide sometimes
3. This collision causes a connection

If they method of creating a connection is for these universes to physically move and touch/collide with each other, then if this connection is forced upon, there's really only one interpretation, or at least One I can see, is that the universes are pulled into each other to touch and make the connection.

Is just extrapolating because that is one way to link worlds together.