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Potential huge LS and AP God tier bleach upgrade (Squad zero level characters)

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This thread was made after a lot of observation, correcting old mistakes, and updating the info we had since the previous CRT. I also want to mention that several people contributed ideas that helped shape this thread. I strongly recommend reading everything here before forming an opinion.

Little addition: my imgur is not linking the scans properly so I used imgbox instead so make sure you look at the top right corner of your screen if there are more images and use the arrow to navigate.

INTRODUCTION


Unlike my last thread, this one is going to cover several key points:

• Reasons for removing the previous Senna rating
• A proposal for a new and updated rating for both AP/LS
• Evaluating the LS and AP requirements based on our wiki standards
• Justifying character scaling and making sure it stays consistent

NOTE:
This thread is NOT focused on Cour 4 revisions or any updates to the verse or its characters. It also has nothing to do with Yhwach or Soul King scaling—those topics are for others to handle once Cour 4 releases, potentially giving the highest tiers even higher LS and AP than the one i am proposing in this CRT. The only reason they're mentioned here is because, as top-tier characters, they would naturally scale above Senna and be affected by any rating changes.

Please avoid bringing in scaling that isn’t directly based on Senna’s feats, so the thread doesn’t get derailed. Again, this is not about TYBW Yhwach cosmology scaling—it's strictly about Senna’s own feat and how it affects Squad Zero–level characters and above.


LOW 4-C REMOVAL RATING


Before the Thousand-Year Blood War anime came out, the evidence supporting the realms being full universes wasn’t strong enough, things were vague, unclear, and there just wasn’t enough information suggesting universal-sized realms. But with the new information from the TYBW anime which basically retcons old movie-era assumptions, fixes contradictions, and expands the scale of the realms—we now have better context.

Because of that, I’m proposing that the old calc should be removed and replaced with one that lines up more clearly with Kubo’s intended cosmology.

Memories of Nobody Exhibit

This section explains why the realms shouldn’t be considered planetary, based on the movie’s own internal logic.

Visual Representation of the Realms

Urahara visually compares the World of the Living and Soul Society to the Valley of Screams, showing both realms as much larger than the Valley—a dimension with its own natural star. This is backed up by the Research and Development Department’s display of the visual computation of the realms.

If the realms were just planet-sized, the Valley of Screams should logically appear star- or solar-system-sized in comparison, but it doesn’t. Instead, the other realms massively dwarf it, which supports a much larger cosmological scale.


Cosmology and Logical Implications

The movie explains—verbally and visually—that the Dangai surrounds all three realms, including the Valley of Screams. We also see stars visible in the World of the Living during these scenes.

If the realms were just planets, seeing stars while enclosed inside the Dangai wouldn’t make sense. The setup fits way better with universe-sized spaces rather than isolated planets.

Yes, TYBW later retcons this by stating the Garganta surrounds the realms instead—but this point still matters because even the movie’s logic doesn’t support the realms being planetary.


Collision Impact Statement

Mayuri theorizes that the collision between the two realms could destroy “the universe.” Even if we interpret “universe” loosely as in "their cosmological system”, that still places the colliding bodies far beyond planetary scale. Two planets crashing into each other wouldn’t produce even a tiny fraction of that level of destruction.

And he’s not referring to the soul cycle or metaphysics—he’s specifically talking about gravitational, physical impact.

These points already undermine the original calc, and when combined with newer TYBW info, the old Low 4-C interpretation doesn’t hold anymore.


Thousand-Year Blood War Anime Exhibit

The strongest supporting evidence comes from Senjumaru, who directly refers the three realms in a way that clearly implies universal scale. The community already accepts this, including Low 2-C realms from another CRT—so replacing the previous calc is consistent with accepted standards.

Also, the movie has been officially confirmed as canon in Episode 32 of the TYBW anime, which further strengthens the argument. That same episode shows multiple Valleys of Screams visualized as much smaller than the realms—again reinforcing the updated cosmology.

Conclusion

With all this combined, the old Low 4-C rating doesn’t reflect current canon or author intent. Because of that, it should be removed and replaced with the updated proposal in the next section.


NEW UNIVERSAL LS RATING AND BREAKDOWN

In the previous CRT, it was agreed that Senna pushing the realms apart wouldn’t count as LS, since the force came from the explosive shockwave released by the Blanks’ energy meaning it was brief, instantaneous, and fits only AP rather than sustained LS. I still fully stand by that interpretation. However, the LS being proposed now doesn’t come from Senna’s explosion at all. It comes from the Blanks before that moment specifically, their ongoing gravitational pull that was slowly dragging both realms toward a collision. That sustained force is what qualifies as lifting strength, not the final blast that pushes them away.

FEAT BREAKDOWN

For those who haven't watched the movie the bleach fandom wiki explains the event and plot of the movie perfectly here: https://bleach.fandom.com/wiki/Bleach:_Memories_of_Nobody or you can watch the movie if you want to. Regardless, I will go over certain plot points in the movie in order to bring more context to the feat.

Early in the movie, it’s explained that the Valley of Screams was formed by Blanks between the World of the Living and Soul Society, acting like a bridge attached to both realms. When Senna (the combined memories of the Blanks, aka the Shinenju) is placed at the center of the Valley, the Blanks instinctively rush toward her. This chain reaction causes them to generate a gravitational pull strong enough to contract the Valley and drag both connected realms toward each other.

Mayuri further explains that this pull would eventually force Soul Society and the World of the Living into a full-on collision. He even estimates it would take about an hour for the realms to finally crash, meaning the Blanks are exerting a continuous, sustained force over a long period which directly matches LS criteria.

Overall, the movie makes it clear that the Blanks aren’t causing a one-off explosion or random burst of energy, they’re actively and continuously dragging two massive realms toward each other over an extended period of time. That means the force involved isn’t just destructive AP, but a sustained pulling force that lines up perfectly with how LS is defined. So the setup, mechanics, and narrative all support treating this as a legitimate lifting strength feat.


NEW LS AND AP SCALING PROPOSAL

Since treating the realms as universes lines up more accurately with the author’s intent, I’m proposing we use the ratings from the already CGM accepted calc (credit to Arc7kuroi). The calc relies on minimal assumptions and sticks to the default interpretation of the feat.

I’ve reorganized the existing results from arc's calc and breakdowns in a separate calc (the one we put in the bleach verse profiles) for clarity, and I also added the LS section since the original calc didn’t cover that so both AP and LS scaling are presented together.

I’m completely fine with Galaxy-level AP based off senna pushing back the realms and Universal LS based on the blanks generating an immense gravitational force to pull the dimensions for an hour into collision. The former approach has already been accepted by other CGM members, and pulling two realms with universal mass should logically equal at least twice the mass of the observable universe, especially since that’s currently what we consider the size of the realms per Senjumaru’s calc.

Final Results

Attack Potency: Galaxy level — 3.7 yottafoe
Lifting Strength: Universal — 3 × 10^53 kg (≈ 2× observable universe )


IS THE FEAT CONSISTENT?


Bleach already has other cosmic-level feats, including 4-B (Solar System level) and 4-A (Multi-Solar System level). So a 3-C (Galaxy level) feat (which naturally comes after 4-A) fits perfectly into the established power progression and shouldn’t be treated as an outlier. It’s a reasonable jump in tier and helps reinforce overall scaling consistency.

Senjumaru’s 4-B feat is just a casual reiatsu flex, which implies her actual combat output should be far higher especially considering Squad Zero’s narrative portrayal. We’re explicitly told that Squad Zero can’t all go all-out at the same time because their combined reiatsu could seriously damage or even destroy all three realms. That alone supports them being in Senna’s range when she’s empowered by the Blanks.

Consistency also shows up with Uryu (who is physically relative to senjumaru) both of his fights with Ichigo portray him as relative. And no, that doesn’t mean Ichigo was mentally nerfed, especially in their second fight. By then, he had his true Zanpakuto, accepted it, and wasn’t held back by self-doubt anymore.

Characters who only scale above Gremmy’s 4-A feat should not scale to this, since they have no direct connection to Senna or the Blank-based scaling. Still, the 4-A feat helps reinforce that the verse already has multiple high-tier cosmological benchmarks, making the 3-C result feel completely natural rather than an outlier.

With that established, the following characters would scale to the feat:

  • Senna with her blanks
  • Soul king adyneus
  • Ichigo (dangai training/ post true zanpakuto)
  • Yhwach (post 9 years training)
  • Aizen (post hygoku evolution)
  • Kenpachi (cyfow)
  • Hikone (cyfow)
  • Ikomikomodoe (cyfow)
  • Ginjou (cyfow)
  • Uryu (awakened)
  • Senjumaru (full power)
  • Ichibei
  • The rest of squad zero (full power)
  • Renji (post royal palace training)
EDIT: After much deliberation, I have concluded that the remaining section of this CRT is cluttering up the thread and distracting people from the main post goal (New AP approval or AP and LS approval). So I have decided to strike these out and conclude them in another CRT once the feats are accepted.

REASONS FOR RATING JUSTIFICATIONS

Before I list which characters should scale to the feat, I want to explain why increases in reiatsu also boost Lifting Strength (LS). This should clear up complaints from the previous CRT about bleach UES not getting LS increases.

First off, one obvious effect of higher reiatsu is increased downward pressure, which translates directly into LS. We see this early on when Yamamoto’s reiatsu overwhelms Nanao: she’s physically crushed by the pressure while Shunsui and Ukitake can still stand because their reiatsu protects them effectively raising their LS to match Yamamoto’s spiritual pressure.

It’s also repeatedly established that you have to train your body to withstand your own reiatsu, or your body will be physically harmed by it. TYBW gives us an extreme example where Kenpachi’s reiatsu snaps his arms off because his body couldn’t handle the power. That shows the same principle in reverse: raw reiatsu that exceeds bodily durability causes physical rupture.

To drive the point home, during the Arrancar arc Ichigo is sealed with Bakudō 75 — Gochū Tekkan — which uses five metal bars to restrain him. When Ichigo’s reiatsu surges under Hollow influence, the metal cracks and eventually breaks in response. That demonstrates a causal link: higher reiatsu → greater force exerted on the environment → higher effective LS.

Taken together, these examples support the conclusion that significant reiatsu increases should correspond to higher LS. Therefore, characters with large reiatsu surges should logically have LS at or above the level demonstrated by Senna’s Blanks.

Now to the important part: I’ll justify why the proposed characters scale to this feat. Please read the next section carefully before commenting.


SENNA:

Starting with the obvious is senna who scales because she’s the one who manipulates the blanks. However, her power comes from the Blanks, not her own physical capabilities. So she only scales while empowered by them. To be clear, Senna does not physically scale to the LS herself, since the strength comes from an external source. She’s the only character on this list where that distinction applies.


SOUL KING ADYNEUS:

As the lynchpin of the worlds, he should naturally be superior to Senna (same reasoning used for his AP scaling)


ICHIGO:

As a Soul King candidate, Ichigo possesses more reiatsu than the weakened Reio, who served as the lynchpin of the worlds—so he would naturally scale.

Pre–time skip Ichigo scales after Dangai training, since he becomes physically superior to 4th Evolution Aizen, who is stated to surpass the Soul King. Post–time skip Ichigo scales after passing the Soul King test, making him comparable to the Soul King, and he should be even higher when using Bankai and Hollowfication.

This does not include Fullbring Ichigo so he wouldn’t scale.

YHWACH

Post 9 years strength would scale, clashed with true shikai ichigo and physically dominated him multiple times, telekinetically holding off Ichigo's clash. This should also extend to his quincy restraining techniques as well, higher after he absorbed reio (should be far superior to the weakened soul king).


AIZEN:

Post 3rd evolution, (was going to replace reio as the lynchpin with the hygoku) higher in later evolutions (stated to surpass reio), even higher after muken (Urahara comments the gravitational force of his hado 90 has gotten stronger after his fight with Ichigo) this LS would extend to his kido abilities as well.


CYFOW:

Characters like Hikone would scale since they’re also Soul King candidates meaning they were intended to replace the Soul King as the lynchpin. Ikomikidomoe (after consuming the Soul King fragments) and Kenpachi are physically superior to Hikone, so their LS would scale above his. This is supported by Kenpachi physically matching Hikone during their fight. As for Ginjou, his power level is very inconsistent only rising due to his emotions so i am fine with a possibly rating since he still meets the requirements of being a soul king.


URYU:

Now for the most important character as he is essentially the link between the soul king tier characters (i.e Ichigo) and squad zero level characters (senjumaru) since he fought both in relative settings. I will list the following reasons why he scales;



All these evidence should be enough to justify uryu having comparable LS to Ichigo and thus characters who can physically clash with uryu should scale as well.


SENJUMARU:

Physically restrained awakened uryu with her fabric, so that uryu had to use antithesis to escape so she would scale at her full power.


OTHER SQUAD ZERO MEMBERS:

The likes of Oetsu, Tenjiro and hikifune would scale to full power senjumaru at their full power


ICHIBEI:

Would automatically scale as he is stronger than the rest of the squad zero members at their full power, would extend to his kido as well


RENJI:

Now for my goat, he is physically shown to be superior to uryu's LS multiple times in their fight, with uryu implying he didn't hold back;





OVERALL CONCLUSION

With the evidence, scans, and explanations presented, there’s more than enough support to remove the old calc, apply the new one, and accept the proposed scaling for the listed characters. If Cour 4 or any future Bleach material introduces contradictions to my proposed scaling, I or someone else will make a downgrade CRT and adjust the ratings accordingly. But that doesn’t mean outdated or invalid ratings should stay in place now.

I’ve also addressed the major concerns from the previous CRT, but if anyone has questions, disagreements, or additional info to contribute, feel free to tag me in the comments.

Hope you enjoyed the read!


AGREE: @Infinite9Luck (AP, neutral on LS), @Ralp0054 (AP, neutral on LS), @Lloydblitzed (AP and LS) @Adam1396 (AP, neutral on LS), @ItsMeat (AP and LS (possibly/likely rating)), (staff vote) (AP) @LephyrTheRevanchist (staff vote) (AP, neutral on LS) @Nierre (staff vote) (AP, neutral on LS) @Qawsedf234 (staff vote) (AP)



DISAGREE:
@DavidTPPM (LS), @Qawsedf234 (staff vote) (LS)
 
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Cosmology and Logical Implications

The movie explains—verbally and visually—that the Dangai surrounds all three realms, including the Valley of Screams. We also see stars visible in the World of the Living during these scenes.

If the realms were just planets, seeing stars while enclosed inside the Dangai wouldn’t make sense. The setup fits way better with universe-sized spaces rather than isolated planets.

Yes, TYBW later retcons this by stating the Garganta surrounds the realms instead—but this point still matters because even the movie’s logic doesn’t support the realms being planetary.
Did TYBW retcon it or did they just adapt what the manga said?
 
shit, im dumb mb💀💀, i read it in tandem with you citing the episode in a later point and thinking you're talking about the anime retconning the movie, my fault💔💔
 
shit, im dumb mb💀💀, i read it in tandem with you citing the episode in a later point and thinking you're talking about the anime retconning the movie, my fault💔💔
No problem I didn't expect the CRT to start getting traction now, I was waiting for saqphire's CRT to conclude before posting mine in bleach General discussion page. The only reason I posted this was because I didn't want my CRT to wipe when i leave the site.
 
Taken together, these examples support the conclusion that significant reiatsu increases should correspond to higher LS. Therefore, characters with large reiatsu surges should logically have LS at or above the level demonstrated by Senna’s Blanks.
So for the movie the Valley of Screams generates a space in the Dangai between the WotL and SS (per the bad guy's plan). When the Blanks are reunited with their Memories the realm naturally collapses in on itself, which is completely natural.

However per the plot, when the realm was made it already spatial linked the SS and WotL, which is why when it shrank to collapse it would cause a dimensional collision.

This to me is just a context sensitive version of spatial manipulation that doesn't scale to lifting strength. The force being used to move the realms isn't something I see scaling to anyone LS wise, especially when you haven't shown that things like gravity scale in a 1:1 fashion with lifting strength.

AP wise I guess I'm not technically against, but you're relying a large swath of What Ifs for basically everyone other than Ichigo, Yhwach, and the Soul King.
 
So for the movie the Valley of Screams generates a space in the Dangai between the WotL and SS (per the bad guy's plan). When the Blanks are reunited with their Memories the realm naturally collapses in on itself, which is completely natural.

However per the plot, when the realm was made it already spatial linked the SS and WotL, which is why when it shrank to collapse it would cause a dimensional collision.

This to me is just a context sensitive version of spatial manipulation that doesn't scale to lifting strength.
The Blank pull isn’t a passive spatial collapse or a default result of the Valley of Screams shrinking—it is explicitly triggered by the Blanks reuniting and generating a gravitational force that actively drags Soul Society and the World of the Living toward one another. Before that moment, the Valley existed in the Dangai without ever pulling the realms together, meaning spatial linkage alone isn’t enough to cause the collision. The movie repeatedly frames the impending impact as something being physically pulled into motion, not simply teleported, folded, or naturally collapsing. The realms accelerate toward each other with enough momentum to threaten complete destruction, which requires sustained force acting on their mass—meeting the basic VS lifting strength standard of exerting continuous external force on an outside object. Gravity is a real, quantifiable physical force rather than spatial manipulation, and LS evaluations regularly include gravitational output so long as the character is the source of the effect. Because the Blanks are directly responsible for generating the pull and moving the realms, the feat falls under LS rather than AP or hax, since it is not instantaneous damage but prolonged force applied to massive structures across distance.
The force being used to move the realms isn't something I see scaling to anyone LS wise, especially when you haven't shown that things like gravity scale in a 1:1 fashion with lifting strength.
Bleach consistently treats raw spiritual power as interchangeable across durability, striking strength, and physical force output, meaning attack potency superiority correlates to superior lifting strength. Many characters repeatedly overpower binding forces, gravitational restraints, spatial pressure, or large-scale kinetic forces simply through greater reiatsu, demonstrating universal energy scaling rather than compartmentalized stats. Even though Senna ultimately prevents the collision through explosive AP rather than lifting strength, anyone whose AP and spiritual pressure surpass hers would logically exceed the Blanks’ output, because their gravitational pull represents the upper limit of Blank-generated force. Since the movie establishes that Senna’s energy release can counteract and overpower the pull, stronger characters—many of whom are canonically far above her—would inherently be capable of exerting equal or greater physical force. Thus, superior AP in Bleach is not a “what if,” but a demonstrated verse mechanic, allowing characters who clearly eclipse Senna to reasonably scale above the Blanks’ LS feat.
AP wise I guess I'm not technically against, but you're relying a large swath of What Ifs for basically everyone other than Ichigo, Yhwach, and the Soul King.
This is basically the same standard we have been using for bleach for a long time. My scans and explanations consistently show these characters are relative. To say this is to ignore what I just said in the CRT without even addressing why they are all wrong.
 
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Agree with AP, not sure about LS actually. Was this an actual physical feat or was it via telekenisis?
As I stated in the CRT, they achieve that by releasing immense gravitational force that draws the realms together. This wiki has always counted gravity manip under LS guidelines (for example) so the feat would scale.
 
Side addition i forgot to mention: The Valley of screams (atleast the one in the movie) is basically a massive fusion of countless blanks. The blanks are leaving the fusion to merge with the shinenju and since they were already connected to both realms the force is dragging both realms together. THAT ISNT SPATIAL MANIP.

And if the LS is legit (which it is) characters who surpass the Blanks reiyorku and reaistu would infact get both LS and AP ratings or don't get them at all (which this wiki already disagrees with AP wise). I have already explained how your power physically exerts physical pressure on your body. This should be a logical conclusion.
 
Before that moment, the Valley existed in the Dangai without ever pulling the realms together, meaning spatial linkage alone isn’t enough to cause the collision. The movie repeatedly frames the impending impact as something being physically pulled into motion, not simply teleported, folded, or naturally collapsing.
They could see the SS from the WotL and vice versa:
At 12:50 a.m. Today, a town from the World of the Living
suddenly appeared above the Seireitei. At the same time, the Research Technology Commcenter detected a trail of spiritual waves flowing into the World of the Living, and one minute later, we lost all communication between the two worlds.
The Valley of Screams had connected the realms, which is why Urahara's pictures show it expanding and connecting the two realms. After they were connected, it then collapsed, which drew them together, which is why they tried to destroy it before the process went too far.
However, about three days ago, a new dimension appeared between the Dangai Precipice World
and the World of the Living. It began to expand rapidly, bridging the gap and adhering to both worlds.
So it connected them, and then when it shrank they got pulled together.
Gravity is a real, quantifiable physical force rather than spatial manipulation, and LS evaluations regularly include gravitational output so long as the character is the source of the effect. Because the Blanks are directly responsible for generating the pull and moving the realms, the feat falls under LS rather than AP or hax, since it is not instantaneous damage but prolonged force applied to massive structures across distance.
I don't consider the feat to be LS for the reasons listed before. But even it was, the second point still stands. You'd have to show that gravitational force can be scaled to lifting strength, as it's not an automatic assumption, even under UES.
Bleach consistently treats raw spiritual power as interchangeable across durability, striking strength, and physical force output, meaning attack potency superiority correlates to superior lifting strength
That's a fallacious way of thinking. You have to show that things like gravity and TK can scale to lifting strength, or provide showings of similar magnitude that we can reasonably conclude such a thing.
Since the movie establishes that Senna’s energy release can counteract and overpower the pull, stronger characters—many of whom are canonically far above her—would inherently be capable of exerting equal or greater physical force.
This just means they can replicate the amount of force she can generate, which I understand the reasoning with. But the force of moving the worlds was due to a spatial collapse and not just gravitational pull. Gravity isn't even mentioned as what is drawing near, but the dimension itself collapsing after it had connected both worlds.
This is basically the same standard we have been using for bleach for a long time. My scans and explanations consistently show these characters are relative. To say this is to ignore what I just said in the CRT without even addressing why they are all wrong.
I explained why they were wrong. Our standards on the UES page doesn't even mention lifting strength and you have to prove it scales to other statistics. It's why for multiple years Star Wars characters didn't scale physical strength to Telekinetic strength until a linkage was proven between the two.
 
They could see the SS from the WotL and vice versa:

The Valley of Screams had connected the realms, which is why Urahara's pictures show it expanding and connecting the two realms. After they were connected, it then collapsed, which drew them together, which is why they tried to destroy it before the process went too far.
Now you are the making one headcanons;

Simply being able to see the realms does not prove the realms were being passively dragged together by spatial collapse alone. Visual proximity isn’t the mechanism — Mayuri explicitly states that the Blanks rushing toward the Shinenju would generate the force that contracts the Valley and pulls both realms into collision. Before the Blanks merged, the realms were already spatially linked but never moved toward each other. The realms visually intersecting is a result of the force pulling them, not evidence that the force was just passive spatial shrinking. If simple connection caused collision, the realms would have begun moving long before Senna was placed into the center of the Valley. The movie establishes a causal chain: Blanks merge → Valley contracts → continuous force pulls the realms → collision in an hour. That is an active force event, not a passive topology change.

And no, they tried to destroy it because of what the blanks were unintentionally doing by pulling the realms together. Yamamoto only decides to destroy the valley of screams (eliminating the pulling force) after hearing mayuri words about what the blanks are doing not because of the dimension itself. I recommend you rewatch the movie before continuing this stance.
So it connected them, and then when it shrank they got pulled together.
The collapse is not the cause of the motion — the force generated by the Blanks is. The collapse is the consequence of that force acting on the Valley’s structure. Saying “it collapses, therefore no LS” ignores the fact that VS rules require the force to be physically moving an external object, not that the environment must remain intact. The collapse is the delivery system for the force, not the explanation for why the realms move. Mayuri’s statement makes the mechanism explicit: the Blanks produce the force that contracts the Valley, and that contraction exerts real physical pull on the connected realms. That falls cleanly under LS standards because the motion of the realms is driven by sustained physical force over time.
I don't consider the feat to be LS for the reasons listed before. But even it was, the second point still stands. You'd have to show that gravitational force can be scaled to lifting strength, as it's not an automatic assumption, even under UES.
Even if the word “gravity” is not said, the force functions exactly like gravitational pull: a mass-center draws external masses inward continuously, generating acceleration. VS does not require name-drops — feats are evaluated by mechanics. Continuous attraction of massive external objects over long duration is, by definition, a lifting-strength-type force. Things like attraction, pull, drawing together, and continuous compression fall under LS when they physically move objects, regardless of whether the characters call it gravity. The guidance for LS is mechanical, not semantic.
That's a fallacious way of thinking. You have to show that things like gravity and TK can scale to lifting strength, or provide showings of similar magnitude that we can reasonably conclude such a thing.
Ichigo is unaffected by Aizen's hado 90 force which generates immense gravitational force because he has higher reaistu. (This is a clear cut example of having higher LS/Reaitsu scale above gravity manip of weaker reaistu).

Universal energy scaling does not require explicit mention of LS on the UES page. UES means Bleach treats reiatsu as a universal stat across AP, durability, pressure output, and physical force. Characters overpower binds, kido restraints, gravitational wells, dimensional pressure, and reiatsu-based crushing forces strictly through higher power levels. Bleach consistently equates “stronger reiatsu” with “greater ability to exert physical force,” regardless of the type (kinetic, pressure-based, gravitational-like). Because Senna’s AP release overwhelms the Blank pull outright, anyone with superior AP and spiritual output logically surpasses the Blank force since the verse treats these energies as interchangeable. This is not hypothetical — it is demonstrated Bleach mechanics.
This just means they can replicate the amount of force she can generate, which I understand the reasoning with. But the force of moving the worlds was due to a spatial collapse and not just gravitational pull. Gravity isn't even mentioned as what is drawing near, but the dimension itself collapsing after it had connected both worlds.
The movie directly contradicts this interpretation. If the realms were pulled purely because space collapsed, the process would be instantaneous, but the movie establishes a one-hour sustained pull. Spatial collapse is instantaneous compression. Sustained acceleration over one hour requires applied force, not topology snapping. The realms gain velocity toward each other, which cannot occur without force acting through time. This cannot be explained by spatial shrinkage alone. A shrinking dimension does not impart kinetic energy unless there is a pulling force associated with the contraction, which is exactly what Mayuri describes. That means the Blanks are generating physical force, not merely altering geometry.
I explained why they were wrong. Our standards on the UES page doesn't even mention lifting strength and you have to prove it scales to other statistics. It's why for multiple years Star Wars characters didn't scale physical strength to Telekinetic strength until a linkage was proven between the two.
Telekinesis and gravitational-like force are already accepted under LS standards when they physically move external objects, because LS measures external force, not what body part produces it. The TK debate in Star Wars involved whether telekinesis was powered by a separate ability, not whether moving objects with force counts as LS. In Bleach, reiatsu is explicitly the same energy source as AP and durability. Since the Blank pull is powered by reiatsu, the only question is whether the force they exert is continuous and physical — and the movie confirms both. Once that is established, LS scaling follows naturally because Bleach characters repeatedly overpower force-type outputs through raw reiatsu. There is no separate “gravity stat” in Bleach — it all scales from spiritual power.
 
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As I stated in the CRT, they achieve that by releasing immense gravitational force that draws the realms together. This wiki has always counted gravity manip under LS guidelines (for example) so the feat would scale.
Alright.

The calc you linked used force x distance = AP. Why not do that?
 
Alright.

The calc you linked used force x distance = AP. Why not do that?
What do you mean?

Edit: if you are referring why i didn't use blanks pulling the realms as AP is because the feat will bring potentially lesser values than senna's combined blank explosion. Plus Arc's calc was already CGM evaluated so that was easier to justify.

I suppose I could do an AP section for scaling consistency if the LS gets accepted
 
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Now you are the making one headcanons;
I dislike it when people do this. I never called your viewpoint a head canon, I just disagreed with the fusion mechanics of it as presented in the story. This is just poisoning the well.
Simply being able to see the realms does not prove the realms were being passively dragged together by spatial collapse alone.
Based on this, you didn't properly read my explanation. Per the movie:
  • People in both the WotL and SS can see each other
  • Urahara explains that this is possible because the Valley of Screams had explicitly connected the two realms
  • The bad guy and Mayuri explain that the point of the above was to fuse the WotL and SS, and then collapse the realm by having the Blanks regain their memories. The realm collapsing would cause the SS and WotL to smash into each other
There is no passive dragging involved; they were bridged together by the realm and were going to be smashed together because the realm was collapsing.
And no, they tried to destroy it because of what the blanks were unintentionally doing by pulling the realms together. Yamamoto only decides to destroy the valley of screams (eliminating the pulling force) after hearing mayuri words about what the blanks are doing not because of the dimension itself. I recommend you rewatch the movie before continuing this stance.
It wasn't unintentional. It was the exiled clan's thousand-year plan. They set up the Valley of Screams in that location so the realms would be merged and the collapse of the VoS would drag the WotL and SS together.
The collapse is the consequence of that force acting on the Valley’s structure. Saying “it collapses, therefore no LS” ignores the fact that VS rules require the force to be physically moving an external object, not that the environment must remain intact.
The environment is only moving because the connector piece had shrunk, which forced the realms to be closer together. I'm not sure that's LS or gravity manipulation, rather than the spatial distance just shrinking.
Ichigo is unaffected by Aizen's hado 90 force which generates immense gravitational force because he has higher reaistu. (This is a clear cut example of having higher LS/Reaitsu scale above gravity manip of weaker reaistu).
Ichigo was unaffected by Hado #90 because he was to durable to damaged by Aizen at that point, after which he broke the box with his hand. To my knowledge, with AP vs LS, if the AP is notably higher, the twitch movements would still let you move even if you were weaker LS-wise. The only time LS would come into effect is if you already had comparable levels of AP.
This is not hypothetical — it is demonstrated Bleach mechanics.
Can you show lifting strength scaling to a non-physical ability.
The movie directly contradicts this interpretation. If the realms were pulled purely because space collapsed, the process would be instantaneous,
It's not, because the process of collapsing isn't instantaneous. The realm did instantly shrink, but was in the process of shrinking.

Anyway, my view is unchanged. I get AP, I'm against LS.
 
I mean, that's like the biggest anti-showing:

We agree that Yhwach's physicals don't scale to his TK. So why would gravity manipulation scale to anyone's physicals (under the view that it is gravity manipulation)?
No opinion on LS from this, I was just pointing out where LS is scaled via an ability in Bleach.
 
I dislike it when people do this. I never called your viewpoint a head canon, I just disagreed with the fusion mechanics of it as presented in the story. This is just poisoning the well.
I used the term headcanon because the movie never states the realms move simply because the connecting space shrinks. The only explicitly credited cause of the collision is the Blanks converging and generating the contracting force. Any alternate explanation not supported by dialogue or narration is interpretive, not textual. I apologize if that offends you, it was not my intention.
Based on this, you didn't properly read my explanation. Per the movie:
  • People in both the WotL and SS can see each other
Because the valley of screams (fused blanks) connected both realms and acted as a lens. This has nothing to do with anything.

Being able to see the realms establishes connection, not motion. The realms were visually linked before they began moving toward collision. That proves connection alone does not cause the pull. The actual motion only begins after Senna is placed at the center of the valley and the Blanks converge, which Mayuri identifies as the trigger that generates the force contracting the Valley. If spatial linkage alone caused movement, the collision would have started earlier. The timing confirms an external force, not passive shrinking.
  • Urahara explains that this is possible because the Valley of Screams had explicitly connected the two realms
Again this doesn't help your argument in any way whatsoever, all you are doing is proving they are connected, you would need to provide blatant proof that connection somehow generates the force to pull the realms if you can't do that your argument doesn't hold.
  • The bad guy and Mayuri explain that the point of the above was to fuse the WotL and SS, and then collapse the realm by having the Blanks regain their memories. The realm collapsing would cause the SS and WotL to smash into each other
No thats not what happened, the Valley connecting both realms wasn't planned, it happened accidentally no one planned it. Furthermore, my scan literally debunk this stance. What mayuri and the "bad guy" says is that putting the shinenju at the center of the Valley of screams will cause the blanks (the entire dimension is basically fused blanks) to move to her position causing the dimension to contract and pull the realms since they are attached and then the realms collide and destroy from the force of the collision. Please tap the link i sent explaining the invents of the movie. This stance is blatantly wrong and can't be proven.
There is no passive dragging involved; they were bridged together by the realm and were going to be smashed together because the realm was collapsing.
How is it possible for a collapsing dimension to pull worlds that is attached to without force being applied??

It wasn't unintentional. It was the exiled clan's thousand-year plan. They set up the Valley of Screams in that location so the realms would be merged and the collapse of the VoS would drag the WotL and SS together.
There is literally NO evidence of this in the movie. The exiled clan only use the opportunity of the blanks creating a dimension between the realms to achieve their goal. They didn't orchestrate this. If you think they did. Bring a scan please.
The environment is only moving because the connector piece had shrunk, which forced the realms to be closer together. I'm not sure that's LS or gravity manipulation, rather than the spatial distance just shrinking.
But this isn't true:
Shrinking space does not automatically impart kinetic energy to attached masses. If the collision were purely spatial topology changing, the realms would simply overlap — not accelerate toward each other over an hour. The movie explicitly frames the process as a sustained pull with a calculable collision ETA, meaning force, not passive spatial rearrangement. Contraction is the delivery mechanism, not the explanation for the movement.
Ichigo was unaffected by Hado #90 because he was to durable to damaged by Aizen at that point, after which he broke the box with his hand. To my knowledge, with AP vs LS, if the AP is notably higher, the twitch movements would still let you move even if you were weaker LS-wise.
Kurohitsugi isn’t just cutting AP, it exerts crushing force, functioning like gravitational pressure. And Ichigo resists it without movement difficulty, purely through reiatsu.

That implies:
  • Aizen’s spell applies sustained compressive force (LS-relevant)
  • Ichigo’s reiatsu counters and negates that force
  • therefore Ichigo’s spiritual output includes superior lifting/anti-force capability

Kurohitsugi isn’t a durability/AP interaction — its primary function is crushing, restraining, and immobilizing via sustained compressive force. Ichigo resisting it through reiatsu demonstrates Bleach’s established principle that spiritual power scales to resisting external physical forces, including LS-type pressure. That’s why the comparison is relevant — the verse already treats reiatsu as something that can overpower restraining or crushing forces rather than just cutting or explosive AP.
The only time LS would come into effect is if you already had comparable levels of AP.
And senna showed comparable levels of AP by pushing back the LS of the worlds colliding into each other.
Can you show lifting strength scaling to a non-physical ability.
Yhwach using his reaistu to lift the Wandenreich.
It's not, because the process of collapsing isn't instantaneous. The realm did instantly shrink, but was in the process of shrinking.
The fact that it takes an hour proves the opposite — LS requires continuous applied force over time. Instant explosions = AP. Sustained pulling until collision = LS. The movie explicitly gives a long-duration timeframe, meaning a continuous accelerating force is acting on the realms. That satisfies VS lifting-strength criteria perfectly.
Anyway, my view is unchanged. I get AP, I'm against LS.
That’s fine, but rejecting LS now requires disproving one of the following, because the feat meets all three:
• massive external objects are being moved,
• movement occurs via sustained force,
• the force originates from energy output, not passive geometry.
As long as those remain true, the pull is LS under wiki standards — regardless of personal preference.
 
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I mean, that's like the biggest anti-showing:

We agree that Yhwach's physicals don't scale to his TK. So why would gravity manipulation scale to anyone's physicals (under the view that it is gravity manipulation)?
This rating is so outdated its not even funny and the logic that Yhwach doesn't physically scale to his TK is wrong is scales above it and will give detailed reasons soon.
 
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I mean, that's like the biggest anti-showing:

We agree that Yhwach's physicals don't scale to his TK. So why would gravity manipulation scale to anyone's physicals (under the view that it is gravity manipulation)?
A lot bleach of related ratings are outdated and I will explain why the premise behind Yhwach not physically scaling to class Z makes no sense. I might update them after this CRT concludes.

I want to start by pointing out that the anime (tybw EP 32) visually confirms what lifts the Wandenreich—it's Yhwach’s dark reiatsu, not telekinesis like many assumed from the manga.

That alone already places Yhwach’s casual reiatsu-based LS at Class Z bare minimum, and potentially much higher depending on which anime palace distance and timeframe you use.

As mentioned in my CRT, a character’s body must be able to physically withstand the reiatsu they emit, otherwise it crushes them. Since Yhwach is constantly surrounded by the same black reiatsu that performs a Class Z lifting feat, his body should logically scale to at least that output.

His fight with Ichigo further reinforces this. Yhwach’s reiatsu initially restrains True Shikai Ichigo, but once Ichigo hollowfies and his power jumps, Yhwach immediately switches to using his sword and physical strength, acknowledging Ichigo has reached a level worth engaging physically. This implies Ichigo’s force exceeded Yhwach’s reiatsu LS, so Yhwach relied on physicals instead.

Then before they clash, ichigo holds yhwach sword to restrain him and unleashes an attack and the shockwave destroys a portion of warwehlt but Yhwach doesn’t block with reiatsu like before—he blocks physically. This only makes sense if his physical strength—and Ichigo’s—are superior to the reiatsu-based lifting output shown earlier.

So taking the anime clarification, his fight against Ichigo, and basic reiatsu crush mechanics together, the idea that Yhwach doesn’t physically scale above lifting the Wandenreich doesn’t hold up.

And just to be clear, the feat is performed casually, with zero visible strain—he lifts a structure millions of miles away using only his aura. That shouldn’t be treated as an anti-LS argument, because he’s not even trying—it's just passive spiritual pressure.

So this throws that anti showing argument out of the window.
 
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What do you mean?
The calc you linked for the Jupiters being pushed has an AP section where they calculate AP from the calculated lifting strength with the distance they pushed them using force x distance. If we knew the (at least minimum) distance Senna pushed them, that can scale really high given that instead of two planets, it's two universes being pushed
 
The calc you linked for the Jupiters being pushed has an AP section where they calculate AP from the calculated lifting strength with the distance they pushed them using force x distance. If we knew the (at least minimum) distance Senna pushed them, that can scale really high given that instead of two planets, it's two universes being pushed
Ohh, my CRT already addressed this, senna's feat is an instantaneous explosion that releases enough force to override the gravitational pull caused by the blanks on the realms, that doesn't count as LS. For LS, it needs to be a sustained pulling, pushing, tearing or lifting force which blanks fall under.

However I am using senna overriding the gravitational force as a means to prove why stronger characters scale above the LS since their constant output is superior to the force and energy of senna's explosion via bleach mechanics system. I don't know if you understand what I fully mean?
 
Ohh, my CRT already addressed this, senna's feat is an instantaneous explosion that releases enough force to override the gravitational pull caused by the blanks on the realms that doesn't count as LS. For LS, it needs to be a sustained pulling, pushing, tearing or lifting force which blanks fall under.

However I am using senna overriding the gravitational force as a means to prove why stronger characters scale above the LS since their constant output is superior to the force and energy of senna's explosion via bleach mechanics system. I don't know if you understand what I fully mean?
No I get it, it's not Senna's lifting strength being calced here but her strength/reiatsu surpassing the Blanks' LS and since Reiatsu = Strength, that upscales the top tiers. That makes sense now
 
As I stated in the CRT, they achieve that by releasing immense gravitational force that draws the realms together. This wiki has always counted gravity manip under LS guidelines (for example) so the feat would scale.
I'll just point out that this is just whataboutism. The reason why gravity manip was considered for AP in that specific case is that we literally see the users scale to their own gravity manip and actively using it for striking strength, whether it's by using it directly against their own physical strikes or them and their opponents no-selling it.

So unless you have feats showing these characters directly scaling to these gravity hax then this example really doesn't prove anything helpful here.
 
Anyway I also disagree with this scaling to LS at all. Besides Qawsedfs reasoning wouldn't this also be outright contradictory to the Soul King test where one has to wield the weight of the 3 realms? This makes everyone down to even fodders like Renji a soul king candidate lmao.

Hell you could even say the raising the Wandereich is contradictory rather than supportive. Way weaker characters can supposedly move entire universes but yet the Quincy somehow find lifting the wandereich as "unbelievable" and "truly magnificent"? That's like being flabbergasted by the world's strongest power lifter slowly lifting a grain of rice.
 
Anyway I also disagree with this scaling to LS at all. Besides Qawsedfs reasoning wouldn't this also be outright contradictory to the Soul King test where one has to wield the weight of the 3 realms? This makes everyone down to even fodders like Renji a soul king candidate lmao.

Hell you could even say the raising the Wandereich is contradictory rather than supportive. Way weaker characters can supposedly move entire universes but yet the Quincy somehow find lifting the wandereich as "unbelievable" and "truly magnificent"? That's like being flabbergasted by the world's strongest power lifter slowly lifting a grain of rice.
Wandenreich upscale smh

Seriously though, the Soul King palace is meant to be this holy grail of places in the verse where Aizen wanted to ascend to so of course people would be shocked by that. It's like if you saw Heaven being lifted over you by your leader, not necessarily because it is heavier but because it's simply seen as inconcievable to lift via it's narrative status as a heavenly realm
 
I'll just point out that this is just whataboutism. The reason why gravity manip was considered for AP in that specific case is that we literally see the users scale to their own gravity manip and actively using it for striking strength, whether it's by using it directly against their own physical strikes or them and their opponents no-selling it.

So unless you have feats showing these characters directly scaling to these gravity hax then this example really doesn't prove anything helpful here.
That comparison isn’t whataboutism because the situation in Bleach already meets the same criteria used in that precedent—you’re assuming we don’t have scaling when we actually do.

And again I have already shown characters physically scaling to gravity manip before via having higher reiatsu. (Ichigo overpowers the gravitational crushing force of Aizen’s hado 90 effectively destroy this argument).

In Bleach, characters don’t just “have gravity happen near them.” Reiatsu inherently generates physical downward force, and the series repeatedly establishes that characters must physically withstand and counter it:

  • Yamamoto’s reiatsu crushes Nanao to the ground, while Shunsui and Ukitake remain standing because their own reiatsu physically resists it.
  • Kenpachi’s reiatsu literally tears his body apart when his physique isn’t strong enough to withstand its force.
  • Ichigo cracking and breaking Bakudo 75 happens only because his reiatsu exerts enough physical pressure to overpower the sealing weight.

These aren’t metaphorical examples—Bleach explicitly treats reiatsu as a measurable physical force that characters withstand, resist, and overcome through strength, durability, and pressure output. That means reiatsu-generated force does scale to their physical stats, including LS.


So when the Blanks generate sustained force strong enough to pull two realms together, that’s not “random gravity hax.” It’s consistent with the established mechanics of Bleach—reiatsu exerting physical pressure on the environment. And any character whose reiatsu, durability, and physical power are portrayed as superior to that force would logically scale to it under UES standards.

So the example isn’t irrelevant—it demonstrates that Bleach already has a direct narrative and mechanical link between reiatsu-generated force and a character’s lifting/physical capability.
 
Wandenreich upscale smh

Seriously though, the Soul King palace is meant to be this holy grail of places in the verse where Aizen wanted to ascend to so of course people would be shocked by that. It's like if you saw Heaven being lifted over you by your leader, not necessarily because it is heavier but because it's simply seen as inconcievable to lift via it's narrative status as a heavenly realm
Doesn't really seem like that in the scene. Askin specifically says that after looking down and around at everything being lifted and Jugram specifically comments on Yhwachs power. It's not "wow this is heaven in front of me" but "wow Yhwach is strong af"
 
That comparison isn’t whataboutism because the situation in Bleach already meets the same criteria used in that precedent—you’re assuming we don’t have scaling when we actually do.
If you did you wouldn't need to bring up feats from other series, you could just show Senna performing a feat that scales her to the feat like that.
And again I have already shown characters physically scaling to gravity manip before via having higher reiatsu. (Ichigo overpowers the gravitational crushing force of Aizen’s hado 90 effectively destroy this argument).
Aizen is a different character using a different ability in a different context. That does not prove any spatial or gravitational shenanigans scale to the user or anyone else.
So the example isn’t irrelevant—it demonstrates that Bleach already has a direct narrative and mechanical link between reiatsu-generated force and a character’s lifting/physical capability.
The GoH example demonstrates narrative link between reiatsu and LS in Bleach? I find that hard to believe ngl
 
Anyway I also disagree with this scaling to LS at all. Besides Qawsedfs reasoning wouldn't this also be outright contradictory to the Soul King test where one has to wield the weight of the 3 realms? This makes everyone down to even fodders like Renji a soul king candidate lmao.
Even if the Soul King test were LS—which we have zero confirmation of—it still wouldn’t scale to external lifting strength. Ichibei flat-out states Ichigo is being filled internally with Soul King power, and the visuals show that energy rupturing from inside his body, not pressing against him externally. That’s endurance against internal reiryoku infusion, not resisting an outside gravitational or reiatsu-based force.

Internal spiritual capacity ≠ external force output.

Reiryoku stored in the body is relatively stable. Reiatsu—the thing that actually exerts crushing force—is variable, directional, and actively projected. Surviving your body not exploding from an internal power source doesn’t translate to being able to lift, push, or counter external force. They are fundamentally different mechanics.

So trying to use the Soul King test to disprove LS scaling is just conflating two unrelated systems. It doesn’t debunk anything.

Also calling renji a fodder is crazy.
Hell you could even say the raising the Wandereich is contradictory rather than supportive. Way weaker characters can supposedly move entire universes but yet the Quincy somehow find lifting the wandereich as "unbelievable" and "truly magnificent"? That's like being flabbergasted by the world's strongest power lifter slowly lifting a grain of rice.

Lifting the Wandenreich IS supportive, not contradictory

The argument that “lifting universes makes lifting the Wandenreich unimpressive” ignores how feats scale in Bleach.

Bleach LS/AP scale is not linear; it is reiatsu-based.

Yhwach lifting the Wandenreich is impressive not because the Wandenreich is heavy, but because:
  • He lifts it with casual ambient reiatsu,
  • Across massive distance,
  • Without focus, hand gestures, or strain,
  • While using his passive aura.
Characters are impressed because of the effortlessness and precision of the feat, not the raw weight. This is a universal trope in Bleach: people marvel when reiatsu is used with casual finesse.
By this logic:
“Why are characters impressed by smaller feats when bigger ones exist in the verse?”
…you would have to throw out half of Bleach’s dialogue reactions, including:
  • Ichigo being shocked at Grimmjow’s casual reiatsu, when its not doing anything.
  • Ulquiorra being impressed by Ichigo’s mask transformation, while he is far stronger
  • Aizen fearing Ichigo’s Mugetsu despite his fragor generating more power visually.
Bleach characters react to control, finesse, and display, not only magnitude.

So the Wandenreich reaction is perfectly normal within the narrative.
 
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Also "Weaker characters can lift universes” is a misinterpretation

No—only characters whose reiatsu exceeds the Blanks' sustained pulling force would scale to that LS.

It only applies to characters whose reiatsu is explicitly stated or shown to be:
  • Comparable to
  • Greater than
  • Or capable of resisting forces beyond the Blank gravitational contraction.
In other words:
Only high-tier characters scale. Not fodder.

Renji would scale because he has scaling connections to the strongest characters in the verse.
 
I would re-write that response entirely btw because it's clear it's AI-coded (why is it saying Kenny breaks down from Reiatsu when it's Ichigo who does)
Uhh it's Kenpachi whose arms rips off not Ichigo’s? and I am only using ai to grammatically check and correct my responses to my make stance more readable, because I am typing too fast lol, the reasonings and response still comes from myself.
 
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If you did you wouldn't need to bring up feats from other series, you could just show Senna performing a feat that scales her to the feat like that.
I did that because saqphire didn't know that LS also corresponds to non contact force which is why brought a gravity manip LS calc to show that is not the case here not because I needed it to prove the validity of my argument.
Aizen is a different character using a different ability in a different context. That does not prove any spatial or gravitational shenanigans scale to the user or anyone else.
It does because Bleach has UES, if we consider aizen to be superior to senna's blanks, then he is also superior to the blanks LS. The same reasoning justifies every other reaistu relevant stat. It is the same reason we put Ichigo and aizen's range on the same level as Senjumaru’s because they have superior reaistu. This is consistently accepted by the community that higher reaitsu encompasses all relevant stats.
The GoH example demonstrates narrative link between reiatsu and LS in Bleach? I find that hard to believe ngl
That's because Bleach unlike GOH has UES and what do you mean goh demonstrates a link between reaitsu and LS? Is that a mistake?.

This is like saying characters don't scale to senna's AP, you are inadvertently making the same argument you just don't know it yet.
 
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