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Better Call Solitude (Mario and Luigi Brothership 2nd CRT (3-A, 2-C, or 2-B))

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I was paraphrasing what @Executor_N0 has explained multiple times; particularly here, here, and here. If you both have problems with that, take it up with him instead of dogpiling onto me.

But yes, I know it translates to World in a general setting. And I never said the "Word" Sekai was a sentence. However "All Existence" or "All Time and Space" or "Everything that exists" is the very first description in most Japanese dictionaries. Executor also brought up links that listed 12 or more definitions, but the first and most highlighted was even mentioning it being derived from the Latin word "Mundus" or the Greek word "Kosmos". Which also happens to be where the English word "World" also originated from. But the original definition was intended to mean "everything that exists" or even a synonym for "Universe" which could by extension also mean "Multiverse" given the existence of cosmologies. Yes, World can also just mean planet or even just something smaller than a planet such as Old World (Europe, Asia, Africa) and New World (The Americas, Oceania, ect). But those are considered rarer cases, with the Japanese work Sekai also having such possibilities. But most Japanese works tend to be more consistent at meaning something more Cosmic in nature. And when various historical figures and/or philosophers in ancient past used it and/or when ancient religious figures used words whether it be "World," "Sekai," "Mundus," or "Kosmos," they all meant something cosmic and not just planet Earth.

But back to the main topic. Concordia is not just some random planet or random country within the same planet as Mushroom Kingdom, but a parallel world. Mario and Luigi were transported there via a dimensional portal and sucked into Mysterious Space. The story even qualifies as the narrative genre known as Isekai. But given it is one, a different body of space from what the Mushroom Kingdom is located, and even a "Parallel" world, it's obviously not located in some 4-A sized pocket dimension or a planet sized pocket dimension, but a parallel universe. As for Reclusa's "Devouring the entire world" statement, it is implied to be a spatial devouring given his method of doing so was forming a giant void, he has devoured many worlds, and actively travels to different dimensions (body of spaces) to devourer said worlds, I find it hard to believe anything he devourers is anything less than a universe. It shouldn't be a standard assumption that anything parallel to a literal universe is any smaller than said parallel universe. Mushroom Kingdom is obviously located in a universe with many galaxies and consistently stated to be infinite in size, which means "Parallel Worlds" must also be universes. Why would someone travel to different universes just to eat random planets instead of just traveling through space to devourer planets? If they ran out of planets in those other "Universes" is the next best interpretation, that would be more assumptive because one, devouring an infinite number of planets within a finite amount of time would be Infinite speed + still be High 3-A minimum. Which is even more assumptive; ultimately, Reclusa devouring universes is the most likely interpretation. And the OP still makes a good point about Great Conductor looking all over the worlds to truly find who can stop him given the threat he clearly gives off.
Yeah, for him to destroy something infinite in finite time... Yeah, that makes total sense, he must at least be 3-A.

We should start voting on that first, before getting into upscale and abilities, as I requested earlier.
 
Likely 2-B would work IMO, and I agree with all abilities except Invulnerability, that looks like Limited Invulnerability at best
Oh yeah! There's a likely, that should be considered~

Also, I did say "essentially" invulnerable. He can still get "hurt", but I'm moreso convinced its just anti softlock measures than anything, since he scales everything down to single digits, it wouldn't make much of a difference.
 
But more over, as I informed the OP in Discord. We should have waited or tackled other topics before making the thread or doing the rest of the stuff. Especially starting with the part about the Rosalina and Lumas that are updates as a result of the extended story book lore released in the remasters of Super Mario Galaxies 1 + 2.
Before I respond to the counterarguments, which parts of this thread should I ignore and consider a "to be done later"?
 
A little late but the zeekeeper stuff is a no go imo

"the zeekeeper wouldnt let it fly"

He didn't care to help with bowser until he was offered money

and all the statues are undiscovered until you yourself find them , and NPCs are unaware of them as you have to talk to Issa Rock when you discover it.

So theres no evidence that great conductor even knows who the zeekeeper is to begin with, or even if it interacted at all with them.
 
A little late but the zeekeeper stuff is a no go imo

"the zeekeeper wouldnt let it fly"

He didn't care to help with bowser until he was offered money

and all the statues are undiscovered until you yourself find them , and NPCs are unaware of them as you have to talk to Issa Rock when you discover it.

So theres no evidence that great conductor even knows who the zeekeeper is to begin with, or even if it interacted at all with them.
Yes, normal people of the planet don't know about those statues, why would an interdimensional god that can search throughout the multiverse wouldn't know?
 
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A little late but the zeekeeper stuff is a no go imo

"the zeekeeper wouldnt let it fly"

He didn't care to help with bowser until he was offered money

and all the statues are undiscovered until you yourself find them , and NPCs are unaware of them as you have to talk to Issa Rock when you discover it.

So theres no evidence that great conductor even knows who the zeekeeper is to begin with, or even if it interacted at all with them.
I mean, The Great Conductor is able to powerscale people he doesn't even know across the multiverse, I think he'd know
 
Right then.
Im stating the fact that Rosalina didn't create the MULTIVERSE. Im literally just saying that whoever made/protects each universe scales to it, and Reclusa beat them. It's that simple.
We've been to other universes in the Mario series and never really found anyone like this, even in games like SPM where reality is at stake. Not to mention Rosalina herself has failed to intervene in... literally any plotline outside of her own, ever.

... Also uh, I just noticed Rosalina isn't tier 2. No tier 2 rating is listed on either her page or the Lumas' and even if we said that the Galaxy reset thing was universal (honestly not sure, I don't remember the specifics) it's not something that she'd be able to do in combat. There's just nothing to scale to here.
I just explained why that doesn't matter. If the people know about the multiversal dream guardian, the wise pig sage who could detect the power of beings throughout the multiverse (outright a PLOT POINT of his) probably DOES, in fact, know.
Again this is a lot of assumption to disguise the fact that we're talking about characters who are not part of this plotline and who in the Zeekeeper's case have only been relevant in precisely ONE game. Like Super Mario has 200+ games and very rarely any kind of continuity beyond cameos and references, you cannot take the lack of mention of mostly unrelated characters as solid, actionable evidence that they would not be capable of stopping Reclusa. It's not like this has been the first time that Mario/the bros have been the only people capable of stopping a foe that would threaten enough of the world to involve other beings at least as powerful as them or more powerful.

Hell if it was that simple and Rosa was actually a tier 2 combatant you'd imagine that Mario & friends would be pretty quick to ask her for help when someone's threatening the Kingdom - if she's willing to leave her duty to play a few rounds of karting or tennis she's probably fine to destroy a world-ending threat too.
 
Right then.

We've been to other universes in the Mario series and never really found anyone like this, even in games like SPM where reality is at stake. Not to mention Rosalina herself has failed to intervene in... literally any plotline outside of her own, ever.

... Also uh, I just noticed Rosalina isn't tier 2. No tier 2 rating is listed on either her page or the Lumas' and even if we said that the Galaxy reset thing was universal (honestly not sure, I don't remember the specifics) it's not something that she'd be able to do in combat. There's just nothing to scale to here.

Again this is a lot of assumption to disguise the fact that we're talking about characters who are not part of this plotline and who in the Zeekeeper's case have only been relevant in precisely ONE game. Like Super Mario has 200+ games and very rarely any kind of continuity beyond cameos and references, you cannot take the lack of mention of mostly unrelated characters as solid, actionable evidence that they would not be capable of stopping Reclusa. It's not like this has been the first time that Mario/the bros have been the only people capable of stopping a foe that would threaten enough of the world to involve other beings at least as powerful as them or more powerful.
The problem with this line of thinking is that there's a Zeekeeper's rock formation in Concordia, indicating that they know his existence, especially the Great Conductor, then there's the fact that Brothership references Dream Team a lot, with enemies that appeared originally and only in Dream Team reappearing in Brothership
 
The problem with this line of thinking is that there's a Zeekeeper's rock formation in Concordia, indicating that they know his existence, especially the Great Conductor, then there's the fact that Brothership references Dream Team a lot, with enemies that appeared originally and only in Dream Team reappearing in Brothership
As I mentioned - yeah there's cameos and mentions and obviously an M&L game is gonna be eager to reference previous M&L. That doesn't mean he's an actual part of the plotline, if he was they'd at least address how he can't help in brief given this is his domain but a quick fun cameo isn't really that, especially when the rare reefs are full of other random references.

Either way this is a topic that apparently is better off not discussed right now, so.
 
Right then.

We've been to other universes in the Mario series and never really found anyone like this, even in games like SPM where reality is at stake. Not to mention Rosalina herself has failed to intervene in... literally any plotline outside of her own, ever.

... Also uh, I just noticed Rosalina isn't tier 2. No tier 2 rating is listed on either her page or the Lumas' and even if we said that the Galaxy reset thing was universal (honestly not sure, I don't remember the specifics) it's not something that she'd be able to do in combat. There's just nothing to scale to here.

Again this is a lot of assumption to disguise the fact that we're talking about characters who are not part of this plotline and who in the Zeekeeper's case have only been relevant in precisely ONE game. Like Super Mario has 200+ games and very rarely any kind of continuity beyond cameos and references, you cannot take the lack of mention of mostly unrelated characters as solid, actionable evidence that they would not be capable of stopping Reclusa. It's not like this has been the first time that Mario/the bros have been the only people capable of stopping a foe that would threaten enough of the world to involve other beings at least as powerful as them or more powerful.

Hell if it was that simple and Rosa was actually a tier 2 combatant you'd imagine that Mario & friends would be pretty quick to ask her for help when someone's threatening the Kingdom - if she's willing to leave her duty to play a few rounds of karting or tennis she's probably fine to destroy a world-ending threat too.
Nooooo dawg we were supposed to ignore Zeekeeper and Rosalina upscaling

Remember? Focus on 3-A to 2-C for now
 
True, but the world ending (everyone dies) is very different from the world is gone. I believe he's referring to both separately.
I don't really think there's enough evidence to say this, especially when we know his M.O. so clearly. I mean what you're saying is he kills everyone with the dream stuff... and then he just blows up the universe for the hell of it. You don't have any real evidence to point to other than slightly ambiguous wording which definitely just refers to killing everyone.
But him saying he'll play with the world, not the people, until it's gone, not they're gone, is noteworthy to take into account.
It isn't really. If you're affecting everyone in the world at once then saying you're affecting the world is a pretty normal figure of speech. Like saying that an event "shook the world" is pretty common (just off a cursory search I found a book, a movie and two songs named some variety of that).

There's also no real indication as to what "playing with the world" would even mean if it isn't what Reclusa does with people. His entire thing is that he hates when people are together and works to separate (and then kill) them. There's no real reason to say he'd then go out of his way to destroy what is now an empty world/universe just for kicks.

I am presenting these without full context solely because I expect that you'd know it better than me, but there are a few quotes which seem to pretty clearly indicate that Reclusa's MO doesn't include universal destruction:
  • "He's gonna end everything! Pretty cool, right? When he's done, everybody in Concordia... "is gonna be GONE!" - Seems to clearly imply that the end goal is indeed "just" mass murder.
  • "He hatches from an egg and fills the world with loneliness... When his power is used up, he recharges in his egg. If we don't stop him... he'll keep doing that, again and again." - Basically states that Reclusa goes back to napping after the whole loneliness stuff.
This is moreso to imply that people scale to a world when they all work together. This is a known fact, and doesn't invalidate anything.
It doesn't really validate anything either, then.
 
I don't really think there's enough evidence to say this, especially when we know his M.O. so clearly. I mean what you're saying is he kills everyone with the dream stuff... and then he just blows up the universe for the hell of it. You don't have any real evidence to point to other than slightly ambiguous wording which definitely just refers to killing everyone.
Yeah, that's effectively what I'm saying.
First off, he already describes his disdain for both the islands AND the people:

"Connecting the islands? Connecting the PEOPLE?"
He sees them as seperate entities ENTIRELY. He refers to people as his "toys" as well, but this wording is absent when he talks about the world itself:

"I'm taking this world all for myself. Anything that isn't me...is my toy!"
"I will play with this world until it's gone! Even if it takes an eternity! Just me! ALONE!"
"I thought you'd all make such good toys, but..."
He refers to the people (his toys) and the world entirely separately. Also:

"If you get in my way, I will BREAK you! I will POUND you into FINE POWDER!"

There's also no real indication as to what "playing with the world" would even mean if it isn't what Reclusa does with people. His entire thing is that he hates when people are together and works to separate (and then kill) them. There's no real reason to say he'd then go out of his way to destroy what is now an empty world/universe just for kicks.
There are a few reasons, actually.
First off, since he just, as you says, simply kills everyone, there'll be no reason to play with the world for eternity other than to destroy it. Also, essentially everything is alive in the Mario series, remember?

And he'd NEED to destroy the world for everyone to be gone:

We see him destroy Concordia's planet onscreen. It's an infinite universe out there, and unless Reclusa destroyed an infinite amount of people in a finite amount of time, he must destroy the universe itself in order to "destroy the world". He'd also have no reason to reincarnate in other universes if the next planet was just a float across the galaxy away.

This would also prevent life from sprouting back up. If he kills everyone without ending the universe, life can just randomly sprout back up, and he has no real method of killing everything with flowers alone, does he?
Some beings would be simply too large to flower, simply unable to even sleep, or do not need sustenance from food, water, or anything else of the sort. What about Boos and Boo-like creatures? They're incorporeal. What about the other infinite number of planets? Heck, we don't even need planets, as some beings just float in space in this series.
Starting to see the issue here? Not only is the wording pointing towards such universe destruction, but so is the logic.

Also, Glohm can make things exposed to it explode, fade out of existence, dissolve etc. When Reclusa fills an empty world with no survivors to infect with Glohm, this is why.
I am presenting these without full context solely because I expect that you'd know it better than me, but there are a few quotes which seem to pretty clearly indicate that Reclusa's MO doesn't include universal destruction:
  • "He's gonna end everything! Pretty cool, right? When he's done, everybody in Concordia... "is gonna be GONE!" - Seems to clearly imply that the end goal is indeed "just" mass murder.
"I... I ain't real clear on the details! I just know they ain't gonna be around!"

Is what he says right after. This is our fella known as Shun, and he hasn't heard all the details of Reclusa yet. He is talking about Zokket in this line.
  • "He hatches from an egg and fills the world with loneliness... When his power is used up, he recharges in his egg. If we don't stop him... he'll keep doing that, again and again." - Basically states that Reclusa goes back to napping after the whole loneliness stuff.
This is a Shun who knows about Reclusa. But, this only adds credence to what I said about using Glohm to destroy the world, as he'd have nobody to infect if they're all dead already, seeing as he opened with flowers.
It doesn't really validate anything either, then.
Notable thing, Reclusa has been confirmed to have fought against the people of 2-C worlds before:

"The power of Bonds? Feels like that rings a bell..."
"Ohhh, of course. Yes, yes, I'm veeery scared."
 
First off, he already describes his disdain for both the islands AND the people:
He sees them as seperate entities ENTIRELY.
Connecting the islands IS connecting the people, he's saying he will not allow the former because it implies the latter and that is something he's morally opposed to, this is very basic reading comprehension.
He refers to people as his "toys" as well, but this wording is absent when he talks about the world itself: He refers to the people (his toys) and the world entirely separately. Also:
What do you mean, "this wording is absent"? He literally says he will "play" with the world, that's what you do with toys - he is very clearly referring to the same thing (the population) every time. You're grasping at straws to try and find an implication for something that just isn't part of the script, when what's going on here is much simpler.

... And yeah obviously he threatens to kill those who fight him right before attacking them? This isn't evidence of anything beyond "Reclusa will fight to remove obstacles to his plan" which is just plainly obvious.
There are a few reasons, actually.
First off, since he just, as you says, simply kills everyone, there'll be no reason to play with the world for eternity other than to destroy it. Also, essentially everything is alive in the Mario series, remember?
There's no reason to destroy it either. Obviously he's childish but what he hates are people and connections not... empty matter, I suppose. It'd be like blowing up a house nobody's living in anymore, you're not even doing anyone harm.
We see him destroy Concordia's planet onscreen. It's an infinite universe out there, and unless Reclusa destroyed an infinite amount of people in a finite amount of time, he must destroy the universe itself in order to "destroy the world". He'd also have no reason to reincarnate in other universes if the next planet was just a float across the galaxy away.
There's several issues with this argument but first can I get a scan for this?
This would also prevent life from sprouting back up. If he kills everyone without ending the universe, life can just randomly sprout back up, and he has no real method of killing everything with flowers alone, does he?
Some beings would be simply too large to flower, simply unable to even sleep, or do not need sustenance from food, water, or anything else of the sort. What about Boos and Boo-like creatures? They're incorporeal. What about the other infinite number of planets? Heck, we don't even need planets, as some beings just float in space in this series.
Starting to see the issue here? Not only is the wording pointing towards such universe destruction, but so is the logic.
That's complete headcanon. We never see him even slightly address this concern nor is there anything that hints that this is part of the logic of the story. Even if it was a logical theory (I don't even think that's true) there's just no evidence that it's true and evidence is what you need for VSBW, especially when it's to justify such a high tier. FFS this isn't Dark Souls, it's a story for literal children, if they wanted to say something they would've said it.
This is a Shun who knows about Reclusa. But, this only adds credence to what I said about using Glohm to destroy the world, as he'd have nobody to infect if they're all dead already, seeing as he opened with flowers.
Not really. It makes it pretty clear that he does the "Loneliness" stuff and then goes back to sleep. Very clearly not destroying the world in the meantime, otherwise Shun would mention that.
Notable thing, Reclusa has been confirmed to have fought against the people of 2-C worlds before:
No, he's fought people using the power of Bonds. What you are trying to do currently is scale Bonds to (Low) 2-C, this isn't accepted right now.
 
Connecting the islands IS connecting the people, he's saying he will not allow the former because it implies the latter and that is something he's morally opposed to, this is very basic reading comprehension.
I guess?
What do you mean, "this wording is absent"? He literally says he will "play" with the world, that's what you do with toys - he is very clearly referring to the same thing (the population) every time. You're grasping at straws to try and find an implication for something that just isn't part of the script, when what's going on here is much simpler.
Not really, in Japanese he says:
cVD3U6P.png

Also, he's quite literally not alone if life remains in the world, so he'd be contradicting himself even in English.
As someone who has played the game and 100%'d it, "the world" and "the people" being different is honestly pretty essential to the story as well.
When he says he's gonna destroy the world, he's referring to the WORLD, because the people will already be gone in every instance he says this.
He can't just re-destroy them.

(Again, him saying forever is obvious hyperbole as he'd never be able to destroy another world in that case, he just said that to piss them off)

There's several issues with this argument but first can I get a scan for this?
We see him destroy Concordia's planet onscreen.

I assume you mean this part? That's absolutely not what I meant. Shoot. It should be this:

"If we saw him destroy Concordia's planet onscreen".

It's an infinite universe out there, and unless Reclusa destroyed an infinite amount of people in a finite amount of time, he must destroy the universe itself in order to "destroy the world". He'd also have no reason to reincarnate in other universes if the next planet was just a float across the galaxy away.
That's complete headcanon. We never see him even slightly address this concern nor is there anything that hints that this is part of the logic of the story. Even if it was a logical theory (I don't even think that's true) there's just no evidence that it's true and evidence is what you need for VSBW, especially when it's to justify such a high tier. FFS this isn't Dark Souls, it's a story for literal children, if they wanted to say something they would've said it.
It's not even headcanon. If he doesn't destroy the universe, he literally cannot kill everybody because the universe is infinite.
I already explained that in order to at kill everyone in a world, he needs to scale to everybody and the strongest members of the world in order to succeed, but I think you opposed that.

But it still applies, as there are simply two possibilities here:

He destroys the world and scales (what we're discussing here)

or

He consistently outscales everyone in each entire universe he goes to and soloes verses for a living, scaling to it's inhabitants
(which MUST be the case if you think he doesn't destroy the worlds themselves)

As for the story being for children, may I remind you that Nintendo didn't even WRITE this game? Nintendo had to step in multiple times to WATER DOWN the story and remove more mature elements, so that doesn't even apply here.
Not really. It makes it pretty clear that he does the "Loneliness" stuff and then goes back to sleep. Very clearly not destroying the world in the meantime, otherwise Shun would mention that.
Then what is he talking about with playing with the world AFTER everyone is dead? In this case, when does he decide to destroy the next world?
No, he's fought people using the power of Bonds. What you are trying to do currently is scale Bonds to (Low) 2-C, this isn't accepted right now.
Aren't Bonds already even stronger than that? And also, this would confirm Bonds as a UES, wouldn't it?
 
I typed up a whole post tackling the opposition's argument line by line but then I decided not to send it- it is solely to the benefit of what is just a thoroughly unfounded argument to legitimize it by actually debating the specifics of it. I am instead going to take a step back and address the forest instead of the trees - because this just simply does not work at a fundamental level. In doing so I will also provide a summary so that people reading the post may understand more easily what this is.

To give a bit of background, Reclusa is a villain who hates bonds and relationships and enjoys driving people apart. Across many worlds in the past he has forcefully put entire worlds' inhabitants into personal dream worlds until they all died. It must be kept in mind before we proceed that Reclusa is an extremely childish and impulsive character prone to throwing tantrums and often sees his actions as just playing in the way a child would with toys.

The core argument of the OP is that Reclusa is seemingly said to destroy the "worlds" he takes over until nothing is left, after doing his whole dream thing. I have already explained pretty thoroughly how the scene used as evidence directly debunks that interpretation when looked at with proper context. I think my argument there is concise enough that there isn't really a point in copy/pasting it here, but in conclusion Reclusa is clearly referring to the death of all the inhabitants, not the destruction of the planet or universe.

Of course the debate has gone on since then, and I find the arguments that have been made by Galactidot to not be substantial at all. They are effectively subjective interpretations based on small bits of circumstantial evidence rather than clear proof that Reclusa is indeed referring to the destruction of universes. They are the following:
  • The world and the people of the world are referred to separately by Reclusa when he speaks of his plans.
    • As addressed before this is clearly just a metonymy. Reclusa's whole motivation is that he hates when people are together, and that he wants to prevent it and force everyone to be isolated until they die. There is no reason that he would care to destroy an uninhabited world. Any statement that is interpreted to mean the opposite is never really directly saying so, it is just describing Reclusa's pre-existing M.O. in an ambiguous way.
  • Simply killing all inhabitants of the world will not preclude the possibility of life coming into existence again in the future.
    • True but this has never been stated to be something Reclusa cares to prevent. Would it make sense for this character? Maybe, but that isn't enough to assume he would do it. No character in fiction is perfectly pragmatic and 100% consistent in their actions, let alone such an over the top childish and whimsical villain, and no writer should be expected to perfectly consider every ramification of what they put to text. This is also without even considering that even if he wanted to do that Reclusa might just be unable to, given that we currently regard him to be a High 6-A character with no ability to unleash universal destruction.
  • Reclusa states that he will "play" with the world alone, which is interpreted to mean that he will continue to do stuff after everyone is dead. Assumedly, that is destroying the entire thing.
    • As Galactidot themselves admit, Reclusa is saying that he will play with the world forever - which directly contradicts the idea that he will be destroying it in its entirety. So even on its own the statement is either unreliable or straight-up debunks OP's claim. But in fact, Reclusa straight-up says that, to him, a world where everyone is trapped in his dream flowers as a world that he is alone in. I refer to the same quote as before: "And with everyone off in their own little worlds, MY world will be nice and quiet!" - So the assumption here is just wrong.
It's possible that after reading this summary you might be of the impression that some or even all of these points are arguable rather than flat-out wrong. This might be true - I admit there isn't a 100% iron solid conclusion that can be drawn regarding these points of contention. However, I remind you that it is all based on interpretation and conjecture. VS Battles Wiki requires fact, or at least very clear implication, to put something on a profile. Even if we take everything OP says as uncontradicted, the argument ends up as something like "Reclusa MIGHT be destroying the universes he takes over because he SEEMS to care about doing so and MIGHT want to do it". It's not very reliable. Now granted, there are other issues, like how "world" can just as easily refer to planets rather than universes and while it has been claimed that Reclusa seeks to destroy all life in the universes he affects this is also not really ever stated, although it is at least a more reasonable assumption. But the main problem, simply put, is that there's just no actual proof to back up the speculation.

I think this works okay as a summary and while I am sure a response to it will be posted I am content to try and tag a few staff members to hopefully get this checked.

@Maverick_Zero_X @Mr. Bambu @LephyrTheRevanchist @LordTracer
 
I typed up a whole post tackling the opposition's argument line by line but then I decided not to send it- it is solely to the benefit of what is just a thoroughly unfounded argument to legitimize it by actually debating the specifics of it. I am instead going to take a step back and address the forest instead of the trees - because this just simply does not work at a fundamental level. In doing so I will also provide a summary so that people reading the post may understand more easily what this is.

To give a bit of background, Reclusa is a villain who hates bonds and relationships and enjoys driving people apart. Across many worlds in the past he has forcefully put entire worlds' inhabitants into personal dream worlds until they all died. It must be kept in mind before we proceed that Reclusa is an extremely childish and impulsive character prone to throwing tantrums and often sees his actions as just playing in the way a child would with toys.

The core argument of the OP is that Reclusa is seemingly said to destroy the "worlds" he takes over until nothing is left, after doing his whole dream thing. I have already explained pretty thoroughly how the scene used as evidence directly debunks that interpretation when looked at with proper context. I think my argument there is concise enough that there isn't really a point in copy/pasting it here, but in conclusion Reclusa is clearly referring to the death of all the inhabitants, not the destruction of the planet or universe.

Of course the debate has gone on since then, and I find the arguments that have been made by Galactidot to not be substantial at all. They are effectively subjective interpretations based on small bits of circumstantial evidence rather than clear proof that Reclusa is indeed referring to the destruction of universes. They are the following:
  • The world and the people of the world are referred to separately by Reclusa when he speaks of his plans.
    • As addressed before this is clearly just a metonymy. Reclusa's whole motivation is that he hates when people are together, and that he wants to prevent it and force everyone to be isolated until they die. There is no reason that he would care to destroy an uninhabited world. Any statement that is interpreted to mean the opposite is never really directly saying so, it is just describing Reclusa's pre-existing M.O. in an ambiguous way.
  • Simply killing all inhabitants of the world will not preclude the possibility of life coming into existence again in the future.
    • True but this has never been stated to be something Reclusa cares to prevent. Would it make sense for this character? Maybe, but that isn't enough to assume he would do it. No character in fiction is perfectly pragmatic and 100% consistent in their actions, let alone such an over the top childish and whimsical villain, and no writer should be expected to perfectly consider every ramification of what they put to text. This is also without even considering that even if he wanted to do that Reclusa might just be unable to, given that we currently regard him to be a High 6-A character with no ability to unleash universal destruction.
  • Reclusa states that he will "play" with the world alone, which is interpreted to mean that he will continue to do stuff after everyone is dead. Assumedly, that is destroying the entire thing.
    • As Galactidot themselves admit, Reclusa is saying that he will play with the world forever - which directly contradicts the idea that he will be destroying it in its entirety. So even on its own the statement is either unreliable or straight-up debunks OP's claim. But in fact, Reclusa straight-up says that, to him, a world where everyone is trapped in his dream flowers as a world that he is alone in. I refer to the same quote as before: "And with everyone off in their own little worlds, MY world will be nice and quiet!" - So the assumption here is just wrong.
It's possible that after reading this summary you might be of the impression that some or even all of these points are arguable rather than flat-out wrong. This might be true - I admit there isn't a 100% iron solid conclusion that can be drawn regarding these points of contention. However, I remind you that it is all based on interpretation and conjecture. VS Battles Wiki requires fact, or at least very clear implication, to put something on a profile. Even if we take everything OP says as uncontradicted, the argument ends up as something like "Reclusa MIGHT be destroying the universes he takes over because he SEEMS to care about doing so and MIGHT want to do it". It's not very reliable. Now granted, there are other issues, like how "world" can just as easily refer to planets rather than universes and while it has been claimed that Reclusa seeks to destroy all life in the universes he affects this is also not really ever stated, although it is at least a more reasonable assumption. But the main problem, simply put, is that there's just no actual proof to back up the speculation.

I think this works okay as a summary and while I am sure a response to it will be posted I am content to try and tag a few staff members to hopefully get this checked.
You still didn't touch upon him being capable of killing everybody due to the fact that his flowers don't work on everybody, so he needs another method to kill them all...

Like AP...?

That's literally the entire point of this argument you just glossed over, that whether he destroys the world or kills everybody, he'd still scale regardless...

So even if you DID debunk him destroying the world, he still scales.

And he easily does so with Glohm, which is quite literally a UES, something suggested in the first thread.
 
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I thought we agreed to save any "Glohm being a UES" arguments for later. Because it's entirely dependent on "Power of Bond" being one, which while there definitely was given some substance/indication, I'd prefer if we created an elaborate blog post explaining it and showcasing examples throughout the series instead of exclusively using Brothership statements.

The only argument worth discussing for now is the context of "Reclusa consuming the world/worlds." What he is doing is bare minimum consuming all life on Concordia, which at first seems more like a planetary range feat rather than AP. But the context that he has consumed "Multiple worlds" in the past implies other details. At minimum, he traveled to multiple planets to consume all life until nothing was left from those statements alone. But we do know throughout that he doesn't just travel through outer space to seek out life he consumes, but rather other parallel dimensions/universes. Implying that he already wiped those individual universes/dimensions clean of life. And the fact that the Great Conductor basically searched not just his own universe/dimension but other universes/dimensions to call the Mario Bros to his own as the "Only ones who can stop him" all but confirms his over time capabilities exceeds the boundaries of a single universe. And it's doubled down over Reclusa basically stating the Mushroom Kingdom would be next on his "menu" after consuming Concordia and most likely the rest of the dimension/universe Concordia is located in. It's also already been accepted universe times individual universes in Mario lore are contain infinite bodies of space, and the rereleases of Mario Galaxy 1+2 not only repeats the "Infinite sized universe(s) thing, but also double confirms population is also infinite, not just space. All translations whether English, Japanese, Spanish, Italian, ect all basically mention infinite number of planets/stars (Either way are just Lumas, and it also confirms Lumas are still alive/sentient even when they turn into planets or stars). Which effectively means wiping a dimension clean of life would have to be High 3-A minimum.
 
I thought we agreed to save any "Glohm being a UES" arguments for later. Because it's entirely dependent on "Power of Bond" being one, which while there definitely was given some substance/indication, I'd prefer if we created an elaborate blog post explaining it and showcasing examples throughout the series instead of exclusively using Brothership statements.

The only argument worth discussing for now is the context of "Reclusa consuming the world/worlds." What he is doing is bare minimum consuming all life on Concordia, which at first seems more like a planetary range feat rather than AP. But the context that he has consumed "Multiple worlds" in the past implies other details. At minimum, he traveled to multiple planets to consume all life until nothing was left from those statements alone. But we do know throughout that he doesn't just travel through outer space to seek out life he consumes, but rather other parallel dimensions/universes. Implying that he already wiped those individual universes/dimensions clean of life. And the fact that the Great Conductor basically searched not just his own universe/dimension but other universes/dimensions to call the Mario Bros to his own as the "Only ones who can stop him" all but confirms his over time capabilities exceeds the boundaries of a single universe. And it's doubled down over Reclusa basically stating the Mushroom Kingdom would be next on his "menu" after consuming Concordia and most likely the rest of the dimension/universe Concordia is located in. It's also already been accepted universe times individual universes in Mario lore are contain infinite bodies of space, and the rereleases of Mario Galaxy 1+2 not only repeats the "Infinite sized universe(s) thing, but also double confirms population is also infinite, not just space. All translations whether English, Japanese, Spanish, Italian, ect all basically mention infinite number of planets/stars (Either way are just Lumas, and it also confirms Lumas are still alive/sentient even when they turn into planets or stars). Which effectively means wiping a dimension clean of life would have to be High 3-A minimum.
EXACTLY, THIS.

3-A to low 2-C?

Also, to Armor, can we use a possibly for the stuff in the previous thread, considering in the end the problem was that is was a possibly?

Will leave the UES stuff for later, just saw it was relevant to mention.
 
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You still didn't touch upon him being capable of killing everybody due to the fact that his flowers don't work on everybody, so he needs another method to kill them all...

Like AP...?

That's literally the entire point of this argument you just glossed over, that whether he destroys the world or kills everybody, he'd still scale regardless...
I purposefully ignored it because you and DDM both asked for this half of the argument to be left off the table for a future CRT. If you don't want to discuss whether Reclusa could be scaled to people on the tier of Rosalina or the Zeekeeper then you cannot just claim that he should as though it were taken for granted.
And he easily does so with Glohm, which is quite literally a UES, something suggested in the first thread.
Reclusa, with or without Glohm, is not currently agreed to scale anywhere higher than High 6-A.
Also, to Armor, can we use a possibly for the stuff in the previous thread, considering in the end the problem was that is was a possibly?
Not every wild theory can be rewarded with a possibly. I can make up any amount of arguments as to why character X is tier Y, if I fail to substantiate it to a significant degree that should just not make it on the page at all.
 
I purposefully ignored it because you and DDM both asked for this half of the argument to be left off the table for a future CRT. If you don't want to discuss whether Reclusa could be scaled to people on the tier of Rosalina or the Zeekeeper then you cannot just claim that he should as though it were taken for granted.
? I'm not referring to the Zeekeeper...
Reclusa, with or without Glohm, is not currently agreed to scale anywhere higher than High 6-A.
I know.
Not every wild theory can be rewarded with a possibly. I can make up any amount of arguments as to why character X is tier Y, if I fail to substantiate it to a significant degree that should just not make it on the page at all.
Remember? The whole thing literally came down to whether he did the dreams directly or indirectly... It was very close.
 
clerks-not-supposed-to-be-here.gif


alright. fine.

Having read the thread, I think a lot of things come down to broad assumptions about who "probably would have fought who" based on roles, goals, and other facets of the characters. I think these are generally pretty unsafe arguments to begin with, and I think Armor tends to present fairly reasonable points that would suggest these encounters have never happened, or don't need to happen.

Although the "world" meaning conversation got a bit sidetracked (it's right to correct a major misconception like that, even if it isn't the focal point of the CRT, of course), I don't see compelling evidence suggesting worlds are universes. The last major post from Armor also touches on the fact that he likely isn't going to destroy these worlds as in, literally cause them to cease to be, but rather empty them of troublesome others. I wouldn't agree that an AP explanation is likely, given the character's traits and apparent character focus.

This CRT is steeped in much more assumptions than is typical, I feel, and so both sides of the argument are engaging in speculation. Would he do this or that, would he mean X or Y? I find a lot of them unsatisfactory in terms of being backed up with evidence, but I think Armor's tend to make more sense.

TL;DR I agree with Armor (all above is my musing on "why"). now leave me outta these, man.
 
Although the "world" meaning conversation got a bit sidetracked (it's right to correct a major misconception like that, even if it isn't the focal point of the CRT, of course), I don't see compelling evidence suggesting worlds are universes. The last major post from Armor also touches on the fact that he likely isn't going to destroy these worlds as in, literally cause them to cease to be, but rather empty them of troublesome others. I wouldn't agree that an AP explanation is likely, given the character's traits and apparent character focus.
Bambu, see what Ddm said:
The only argument worth discussing for now is the context of "Reclusa consuming the world/worlds." What he is doing is bare minimum consuming all life on Concordia, which at first seems more like a planetary range feat rather than AP. But the context that he has consumed "Multiple worlds" in the past implies other details. At minimum, he traveled to multiple planets to consume all life until nothing was left from those statements alone. But we do know throughout that he doesn't just travel through outer space to seek out life he consumes, but rather other parallel dimensions/universes. Implying that he already wiped those individual universes/dimensions clean of life. And the fact that the Great Conductor basically searched not just his own universe/dimension but other universes/dimensions to call the Mario Bros to his own as the "Only ones who can stop him" all but confirms his over time capabilities exceeds the boundaries of a single universe. And it's doubled down over Reclusa basically stating the Mushroom Kingdom would be next on his "menu" after consuming Concordia and most likely the rest of the dimension/universe Concordia is located in. It's also already been accepted universe times individual universes in Mario lore are contain infinite bodies of space, and the rereleases of Mario Galaxy 1+2 not only repeats the "Infinite sized universe(s) thing, but also double confirms population is also infinite, not just space. All translations whether English, Japanese, Spanish, Italian, ect all basically mention infinite number of planets/stars (Either way are just Lumas, and it also confirms Lumas are still alive/sentient even when they turn into planets or stars). Which effectively means wiping a dimension clean of life would have to be High 3-A minimum.
Even if he were to simply eliminate all life, he would still scale...

And I do want everyone to know that, despite my status as a mere user, I consider myself quite knowledgeable on this game, and I, too, believe all signs point to wiping the whole dimension of life (or else he wouldn't need to travel to other ones if there are still planets full of life)...
 
Remember? The whole thing literally came down to whether he did the dreams directly or indirectly... It was very close.
Galactidot, I am genuinely sorry because clearly you care about this and I take no satisfaction in upsetting you, but ultimately both of your threads have been based on conjecture. I don't claim that you couldn't be right and you are free to believe in your interpretation but as far as the website is concerned it is simply not based on viable evidence.
 
Galactidot, I am genuinely sorry because clearly you care about this and I take no satisfaction in upsetting you, but ultimately both of your threads have been based on conjecture. I don't claim that you couldn't be right and you are free to believe in your interpretation but as far as the website is concerned it is simply not based on viable evidence.
...

But there's actually no way we're gonna scale Reclusa below Antasma, right?

Like, not even 3-A or 2-C? DDM has been agreeing with me for a reason, because it works...

And for every other franchise, doesn't the newest villain upscale based on threat level to the last? Like Infinite being 2-B in Sonic despite displaying no such feats?

And Reclusa DOES have feats...

He's consistently seen as a threat by everyone, even Bowser...

It's outright confirmed he can only be killed by the Bros amped up by the bonds of like, 19 people...

He's never failed once to kill everybody across a verse hundreds of times, and literally solos verses for fun in the lore...

Even the previous thread held weight with dream manipulation on a mass scale, and that's a lowballed way of describing his feat...


I just don't get it.
 
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Again, let's save Antasma scaling for later, or even scaling to the Mario Bros vs whether it be inconsistency/outlier for them. But based on what's consistently accepted, staff majority tends to agree once again it would be outlier for them. Instead, focus on whether Reclusa's own feat qualifies.

But bottomline is, when he says "Consume world(s)" agreed "All life" is more akin and less assumptive than "Consuming universe(s)." But the "World(s)" or "Parallel/Alternate World(s)" when it comes to traveling are definitely alternate universes. And it would indeed sound asinine to travel to different universes/dimensions as opposed to different planets to "Look for more life to consume" unless every other planet in the universe was already wiped clean of life. Or better yet, the fact that the planets themselves are living implies they consumed too. Method of consumption after putting everyone to sleep is of course spreading a void that expands to consume everything that spreads overtime. And expanding a void to infinite to consume all life would still be a High 3-A feat regardless of timeframe.
 
And for every other franchise, doesn't the newest villain upscale based on threat level to the last? Like Infinite being 2-B in Sonic despite displaying no such feats?
i have no opinion on anything else in the thread that i haven't already stated (and my vote holds no weight anyway) BUT
infinite has a statement of being sonic's strongest enemy so far at that time which is why he has that, it's in the justification for his AP section
it's not just a thing done by default, you need evidence of such
 
i have no opinion on anything else in the thread that i haven't already stated (and my vote holds no weight anyway) BUT
infinite has a statement of being sonic's strongest enemy so far at that time which is why he has that, it's in the justification for his AP section
it's not just a thing done by default, you need evidence of such
I should check for that, part of me swears I saw something like that for Reclusa or Zokket...
 
I typed up a whole post tackling the opposition's argument line by line but then I decided not to send it- it is solely to the benefit of what is just a thoroughly unfounded argument to legitimize it by actually debating the specifics of it. I am instead going to take a step back and address the forest instead of the trees - because this just simply does not work at a fundamental level. In doing so I will also provide a summary so that people reading the post may understand more easily what this is.

To give a bit of background, Reclusa is a villain who hates bonds and relationships and enjoys driving people apart. Across many worlds in the past he has forcefully put entire worlds' inhabitants into personal dream worlds until they all died. It must be kept in mind before we proceed that Reclusa is an extremely childish and impulsive character prone to throwing tantrums and often sees his actions as just playing in the way a child would with toys.

The core argument of the OP is that Reclusa is seemingly said to destroy the "worlds" he takes over until nothing is left, after doing his whole dream thing. I have already explained pretty thoroughly how the scene used as evidence directly debunks that interpretation when looked at with proper context. I think my argument there is concise enough that there isn't really a point in copy/pasting it here, but in conclusion Reclusa is clearly referring to the death of all the inhabitants, not the destruction of the planet or universe.

Of course the debate has gone on since then, and I find the arguments that have been made by Galactidot to not be substantial at all. They are effectively subjective interpretations based on small bits of circumstantial evidence rather than clear proof that Reclusa is indeed referring to the destruction of universes. They are the following:
  • The world and the people of the world are referred to separately by Reclusa when he speaks of his plans.
    • As addressed before this is clearly just a metonymy. Reclusa's whole motivation is that he hates when people are together, and that he wants to prevent it and force everyone to be isolated until they die. There is no reason that he would care to destroy an uninhabited world. Any statement that is interpreted to mean the opposite is never really directly saying so, it is just describing Reclusa's pre-existing M.O. in an ambiguous way.
  • Simply killing all inhabitants of the world will not preclude the possibility of life coming into existence again in the future.
    • True but this has never been stated to be something Reclusa cares to prevent. Would it make sense for this character? Maybe, but that isn't enough to assume he would do it. No character in fiction is perfectly pragmatic and 100% consistent in their actions, let alone such an over the top childish and whimsical villain, and no writer should be expected to perfectly consider every ramification of what they put to text. This is also without even considering that even if he wanted to do that Reclusa might just be unable to, given that we currently regard him to be a High 6-A character with no ability to unleash universal destruction.
  • Reclusa states that he will "play" with the world alone, which is interpreted to mean that he will continue to do stuff after everyone is dead. Assumedly, that is destroying the entire thing.
    • As Galactidot themselves admit, Reclusa is saying that he will play with the world forever - which directly contradicts the idea that he will be destroying it in its entirety. So even on its own the statement is either unreliable or straight-up debunks OP's claim. But in fact, Reclusa straight-up says that, to him, a world where everyone is trapped in his dream flowers as a world that he is alone in. I refer to the same quote as before: "And with everyone off in their own little worlds, MY world will be nice and quiet!" - So the assumption here is just wrong.
It's possible that after reading this summary you might be of the impression that some or even all of these points are arguable rather than flat-out wrong. This might be true - I admit there isn't a 100% iron solid conclusion that can be drawn regarding these points of contention. However, I remind you that it is all based on interpretation and conjecture. VS Battles Wiki requires fact, or at least very clear implication, to put something on a profile. Even if we take everything OP says as uncontradicted, the argument ends up as something like "Reclusa MIGHT be destroying the universes he takes over because he SEEMS to care about doing so and MIGHT want to do it". It's not very reliable. Now granted, there are other issues, like how "world" can just as easily refer to planets rather than universes and while it has been claimed that Reclusa seeks to destroy all life in the universes he affects this is also not really ever stated, although it is at least a more reasonable assumption. But the main problem, simply put, is that there's just no actual proof to back up the speculation.

I think this works okay as a summary and while I am sure a response to it will be posted I am content to try and tag a few staff members to hopefully get this checked.

@Maverick_Zero_X @Mr. Bambu @LephyrTheRevanchist @LordTracer
after reading this, I will disagree with OP
 
But bottomline is, when he says "Consume world(s)" agreed "All life" is more akin and less assumptive than "Consuming universe(s)." But the "World(s)" or "Parallel/Alternate World(s)" when it comes to traveling are definitely alternate universes. And it would indeed sound asinine to travel to different universes/dimensions as opposed to different planets to "Look for more life to consume" unless every other planet in the universe was already wiped clean of life. Or better yet, the fact that the planets themselves are living implies they consumed too. Method of consumption after putting everyone to sleep is of course spreading a void that expands to consume everything that spreads overtime. And expanding a void to infinite to consume all life would still be a High 3-A feat regardless of timeframe.
First off, yeah, it would be stupid for a guy who can teleport to decide to go through the effort to:
1. Be summoned in another dimension

2. Puppeteer someone to spread your essence

3. Reincarnate and finally start killing everybody
When there's life he can end a mere teleport away that he'd be deliberately sparing by leaving. It's asinine.



Funny you mentioned the planets being alive, I mentioned this, but more vaguely, primarily referring to everything having eyes (like cells):
Also, essentially everything is alive in the Mario series, remember?
But this is even more explicit. Good catch!

The Glohm void is very notable. In fact, Glohm Bowser already does this, and he's leagues weaker than Reclusa himself.
Zokket also has something interesting to say on the matter:
"Destroying the Uni-Tree was a good start to the scheme."
"Then I used Glohm to sever connections between both the land and its people."
Glohm eroded away at the islands, not Zokket. Glohm is dangerous to matter and life.
(And the difference between the land and the people in this line makes that quite apparent, he can't just say "the people" twice.)

Glohm in such capacity to alter millions of dreams (made in the Soli-tree, which Reclusa made entirely on his own with Glohm) completely
ALONGSIDE Glohm literally floating in the sky would without a doubt spell the end...

And we didn't even get to see the part where Reclusa actually uses up his energy.

We have the why, the how, and the what. Any questions?
 
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First off, yeah, it would be stupid for a guy who can teleport to decide to go through the effort to:

When there's life he can end a mere teleport away that he'd be deliberately sparing by leaving. It's asinine.



Funny you mentioned the planets being alive, I mentioned this, but more vaguely, primarily referring to everything having eyes (like cells):

But this is even more explicit. Good catch!

The Glohm void is very notable. In fact, Glohm Bowser already does this, and he's leagues weaker than Reclusa himself.
Zokket also has something interesting to say on the matter:

Glohm eroded away at the islands, not Zokket. Glohm is dangerous to matter and life.
(And the difference between the land and the people in this line makes that quite apparent, he can't just say "the people" twice.)

Glohm in such capacity to alter millions of dreams (made in the Soli-tree, which Reclusa made entirely on his own with Glohm) completely
ALONGSIDE Glohm literally floating in the sky would without a doubt spell the end...

And we didn't even get to see the part where Reclusa actually uses up his energy.

We have the why, the how, and the what. Any questions?
Bump
 
Reclusa, with or without Glohm, is not currently agreed to scale anywhere higher than High 6-A.

Not every wild theory can be rewarded with a possibly. I can make up any amount of arguments as to why character X is tier Y, if I fail to substantiate it to a significant degree that should just not make it on the page at all.
Look. Even altering millions to billions of worlds entirely on your own is enough to be considered a feat. As I said in my other post, Glohm has been shown to alter reality itself multiple times (creation and destruction) so it is absolutely capable of destroying a realm, especially when used by a being that introduced the concept itself.
 
Galactidot, I am genuinely sorry because clearly you care about this and I take no satisfaction in upsetting you, but ultimately both of your threads have been based on conjecture. I don't claim that you couldn't be right and you are free to believe in your interpretation but as far as the website is concerned it is simply not based on viable evidence.
Armor, this isn't based on conjecture, every piece of information you've requested has been given in some way shape or form.

Post in thread 'Better Call Solitude (Mario and Luigi Brothership 2nd CRT (3-A, 2-C, or 2-B))' https://vsbattles.com/threads/bette...ip-2nd-crt-3-a-2-c-or-2-b.185181/post-7393295

Also, I realize you're being pretty inconsistent with what you regard as confirmed and interpreted.

In the previous thread, your whole argument was that, despite the game and narrative saying so, Reclusa did not use the Soli-tree to make the simulation dream worlds. Your whole argument was claiming that what the game said and showed is inaccurate, and rather, Reclusa altered the brains despite showing no power to do so.

Even considering you have openly admitted to not having that much knowledge on the series,
you even ignored the Japanese translations I sent, which doesn't make much sense considering Japanese is a language that has WORDS denoting figurative speech.

Why am I bringing this up? I am aware I am not an admin, moderator, or anything of the sort. But I do know a thing or two about this series, and I am baffled at how you continue to so confidently misunderstand what I'm doing.

You haven't asked genuine questions about the plot, and have more evidently ASSUMED the lack of things even existing in the first place because "Mario is a kids game".

You haven't deconfirmed anything I said once, and have rather relied on suggesting the writers didn't think about something, or a simple case of modus tollens is nothing more than blind guessing. I know what I'm talking about here.




While you're arguing for him considering the world "over" when everyone is dead is fine, your conclusion from that simply ignores the fact that killing an infinite amount of people in a finite amount of time is STILL at least 3-A.

And while you and Bambu have stated there's no reason to conclude these are universes, we have already explained that he doesn't teleport to another universe while the one he's in still has life.

Therefore, if the worlds were planets, he would have never reached Concordia due to the fact that he'll never run out of planets to destroy in an infinite universe.

As such, sure, I'll go with him killing everybody in an infinite universe rather than destroying the universe itself. He can already erase people from inside their dreams anyways.

Why don't we talk about where that would scale?
 
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