Empty Space Feats

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

In the aftermath of the threads https://vsbattles.com/threads/another-addition-revision-to-for-tier-2.157148/ and https://vsbattles.com/threads/tier-2-revision-merging-3d-spaces-and-destroying-empty-space.157173/, it was decided to create a new thread to answer the following question:

Should we grant Space-Time Manip for creating/destroying/erasing/significantly affecting empty spaces, including Tier 2 and above?

I have no side in this debate: this thread is merely to provide a clean slate for others interested in hashing out this issue.

 

[KLOL506]

@Celestial_Pegasus @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Agnaa @Planck69 @DarkDragonMedeus @Everything12 @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @Elizhaa @LephyrTheRevanchist @GrathOfLux @Abstractions

 

[DontTalkDT]

If you affect the empty space itself then that's space manipulation.
If you affect empty spacetime itself then that's spacetime manipulation.
If you just take empty spacetime that already exists and do something in it that doesn't involved affecting space and time itself, say creating galaxy clusters, then no.
(affect = create / destroy / bend here)

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

If you affect the empty space itself then that's space manipulation.
If you affect empty spacetime itself then that's spacetime manipulation.
If you just take empty spacetime that already exists and do something in it that doesn't involved affecting space and time itself, say creating galaxy clusters, then no.
(affect = create / destroy / bend here)

Pretty much

 

[Antvasima]

If you affect the empty space itself then that's space manipulation.
If you affect empty spacetime itself then that's spacetime manipulation.
If you just take empty spacetime that already exists and do something in it that doesn't involved affecting space and time itself, say creating galaxy clusters, then no.
(affect = create / destroy / bend here)

I also agree with this. Thank you for helping out.

 

[FinePoint]

Affecting an 'empty' Tier 2 or above structure itself should still logically include the framework which allows for the space/time/4th dimensional axis to exist.

So, on that basis, I think that it's fine, though should obviously be specified in the justification since it may still be relevant for comparison.

 

[PrinceofPein]

In the aftermath of the threads https://vsbattles.com/threads/another-addition-revision-to-for-tier-2.157148/ and https://vsbattles.com/threads/tier-2-revision-merging-3d-spaces-and-destroying-empty-space.157173/, it was decided to create a new thread to answer the following question:

I have no side in this debate: this thread is merely to provide a clean slate for others interested in hashing out this issue.

The full proposal is not granting space-time manip for affecting empty spaces.
The proposal was:
Should we grant a tier for destruction of empty spaces? Or simple space-time manipulation?
Reason: Tier 3A and above usually involves the amount of energy needed to destroy all matter in a universal sized space. If no matter is been destroyed then there is no way to tier it, which would make such feats, just range and space time manipulation.
Tldr: Destroying an empty universal space, should not be tier 3 in AP, just in range and space-time manip.
Note: This does not apply to methods of destructions that travels e.g. explosion, expansion e.t.c.

 

[KLOL506]

The full proposal is not granting space-time manip for affecting empty spaces.
The proposal was:
Should we grant a tier for destruction of empty spaces? Or simple space-time manipulation?
Reason: Tier 3A and above usually involves the amount of energy needed to destroy all matter in a universal sized space. If no matter is been destroyed then there is no way to tier it, which would make such feats, just range and space time manipulation.
Tldr: Destroying an empty universal space, should not be tier 3 in AP, just in range and space-time manip.

Pein, the "we shouldn't tier empty universal spaces being destroyed" aspect was thoroughly rejected by numerous staff, especially with regards to physical methods like explosions and shockwaves, even more so with Tier 2 where matter inside legitimately stops being relevant. Stop beating a dead horse.

If you want certain non-physical abilities to not scale to AP, make separate CRTs for them like we did with the EE thread. Don't derail here.

 

[KLOL506]

If you affect the empty space itself then that's space manipulation.
If you affect empty spacetime itself then that's spacetime manipulation.
If you just take empty spacetime that already exists and do something in it that doesn't involved affecting space and time itself, say creating galaxy clusters, then no.
(affect = create / destroy / bend here)

What if you physically blow up space-time, like say, with a punch, or shockwave or explosion? Would that grant Space-Time hax or is it just AP?

 

[KLOL506]

The full proposal is not granting space-time manip for affecting empty spaces.
The proposal was:
Should we grant a tier for destruction of empty spaces? Or simple space-time manipulation?
Reason: Tier 3A and above usually involves the amount of energy needed to destroy all matter in a universal sized space. If no matter is been destroyed then there is no way to tier it, which would make such feats, just range and space time manipulation.
Tldr: Destroying an empty universal space, should not be tier 3 in AP, just in range and space-time manip.

@Celestial_Pegasus @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Agnaa @Planck69 @DarkDragonMedeus @Everything12 @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @Elizhaa @LephyrTheRevanchist @GrathOfLux @Abstractions Here we go again.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Pein, the "we shouldn't tier empty universal spaces being destroyed" aspect was thoroughly rejected by numerous staff, especially with regards to physical methods like explosions and shockwaves, even more so with Tier 2 where matter inside legitimately stops being relevant. Stop beating a dead horse.

If you want certain non-physical abilities to not scale to AP, make separate CRTs for them like we did with the EE thread. Don't derail here.

I clarified properly in the thread of what I meant and It was decided then that certain methods would not count i.e. methods of destruction that travels. But we never finalized on the other methods before the thread went cold then.

I will edit my post to add what was decided upon.
(Chill with the accusations, not every opinion you don't like or want is derailing)

 

[Agnaa]

If you affect the empty space itself then that's space manipulation.
If you affect empty spacetime itself then that's spacetime manipulation.
If you just take empty spacetime that already exists and do something in it that doesn't involved affecting space and time itself, say creating galaxy clusters, then no.
(affect = create / destroy / bend here)

Mostly this, but I'd use slightly different wording. I think you can be said to "affect" an empty space without creating/destroying/bending it. Such as by increasing the temperature across it.

But I think this sort of thing is just very obvious? If you do something to space-time, that's space-time manip. If you don't do something to space-time, that's not space-time manip. Why does this need a thread??

 

[Antvasima]

Mostly this, but I'd use slightly different wording. I think you can be said to "affect" an empty space without creating/destroying/bending it. Such as by increasing the temperature across it.

But I think this sort of thing is just very obvious? If you do something to space-time, that's space-time manip. If you don't do something to space-time, that's not space-time manip. Why does this need a thread??

Good point. So what do we need to do here then?

 

[Agnaa]

I think nothing.

 

[Firestorm808]

If it's just an empty space, it's just space manip, no?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Why does this need a thread??

Been a while and I cannot remember what started but it is generally believed that if you create or destroy a pocket dimension even though it is empty, that is 3-A, which was the reason for the thread then

 

[Agnaa]

If you're destroying/creating the space, then sure,

 

[PrinceofPein]

If you're destroying/creating the space, then sure,

Just checked actually, the statement has been updated, so this thread can be closed, if there is nothin left to do
"Characters or objects that can create or destroy all celestial bodies within a finite 3-D space at least equivalent in size to the observable universe via an omnidirectional explosion that covers the entire space, alternately create or significantly affect"
What the thread was about was that this only pertains to creating or attacks that travel and not other type oof destructions

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

If you affect the empty space itself then that's space manipulation.
If you affect empty spacetime itself then that's spacetime manipulation.
If you just take empty spacetime that already exists and do something in it that doesn't involved affecting space and time itself, say creating galaxy clusters, then no.
(affect = create / destroy / bend here)

Looks solid.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Bump.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I think nothing.

Do we have the consensus to consider this resolved?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Do we have the consensus to consider this resolved?

@DontTalkDT @Agnaa

 

[KLOL506]

Do we have the consensus to consider this resolved?

Based on Pein's comment, probably.