Better Call Solitude (Mario and Luigi Brothership 2nd CRT (3-A, 2-C, or 2-B))

[Galactidot]

That's right, we're back. Sorry.

This will build off of the previous, locked CRT, Breaking Bond (see what I did with the titles?) and bring up new points, revolving around Reclusa's abilities and hierarchy among other higher beings of the Mario verse.

This will be divided into three sections.
Specify what you agree with and disagree with, explain why.

This time, I will only tally staff votes to prevent clutter. But please still give your input, I care!

Let's start with...

The Compromise (High 3-A to Low 2-C) (CURRENT FOCUS)

However, "Destroying worlds until there is nothing left" would pretty much have to be High 3-A at bare minimum. It is consistently stated throughout the series that universes are infinite in size individually or "Contain infinite space." And the recent remasters of both Galaxy games added more lore to the story books doubling down on it. "Taking an eternity" I'm quite positive we can interpret as a hyperbole as the OP did bring up points that his backstory basically confirms he has destroyed/devoured "Other worlds" before. While it does prove he doesn't do this instantly, nor can he do it to more than one universe at the same time, the fact remains is that he can consume an infinite sized world within a finite amount of time. I see this as High 3-A minimum, possibly Low 2-C if time was included.

I can agree that there is nothing quite proving 2-B physical stat scaling based on the Soli-Tree or creating nightmares interpret as dreams, but High 3-A/Low 2-C seem quite blatant. And we cannot reasonably use "Timeframes" as a counterargument against tiers that go that high.

These words were uttered by @DarkDragonMedeus at the end of the Breaking Bond CRT. In that CRT, we tried to scale to Reclusa's creation feat:

Reclusa traps his victims in Dream Worlds that he can freely modify, destroy, and create. The Bros. can take coins and mushrooms out of these dreams, solidifying their status as dream worlds.
He does this using the Soli-tree, which is referred to as his "locus of loneliness". This is his "little toy" that he created with little to no effort, and would scale not only to all of his dream worlds, but to the very concept of Glohm he embodies, as all vanish upon his death.
He's done this to at least hundreds of worlds, which are at minimum in this context Kingdoms (directly stated), at at maximum universes (based on most frequent meaning of "world" in Mario cosmology)
We now know that the two largest kingdoms, being the Mushroom Kingdom and Bowser's Kingdom, are implied to have around 98 million civilians each, and the Mushroom Kingdom is generally depicted as larger than Bowser's Kingdom.

This would put him at at least 2-C, as this lines up with the definitions of the tier. Realistically, he's a more expansive dream stone, surpassing the 100,000 benchmark the Dream Stone set. He's succeeded in exterminating all life in a given world many, many times. This would possibly put him at 2-B. At most, he could be 2-A if we're subscribing to the idea that he's destroyed the population of entire universes, which are infinite in the Mario cosmology. However, this is a HUGE reach, so we're gonna be striving for 2-B here at most.

But we couldn't arrive on a truly unanimous conclusion of how these worlds are created. As you see, we will try to scale to his confirmed feat of destroying worlds in this thread, and scale him to that.

This is for High 3-A to Low 2-C.

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

---

Upscaling and Glohm (2-B)

In Mario and Luigi Brothership, there are things known as Rare Reefs, which can be found across the ocean. One of them shows us someone familiar.

The Zeekeeper is a thing across the multiverse. Nice to get confirmation of this after so long, and this actually leads into some interesting scaling...

In the story of Mario and Luigi Brothership, we learn of the Great Conductor, a similar guardian. He is a guardian of bonds. He tells us this:

As already established, Reclusa travels the multiverse destroying worlds, and this explains how Reclusa was never defeated before --- nobody could, not even each world's respective guardians.
These guardians would need to have lost to Reclusa in order for him to kill everyone, and the Zeekeeper wouldn't let this guy fly.

The Great Conductor, being a similar being to the Zeekeeper, would scale to him, yet it is implied neither of them defeat Reclusa. Therefore:

Reclusa > Zeekeeper (2-B)

Reclusa > Great Conductor (Unknown, presumably similar to Zeekeeper)

Also, Rosalina, guardian of the universe in the Mushroom Kingdom, would also fall --- remember, Reclusa is capable of killing everyone there, too. Lumas and all.

Reclusa > Rosalina & Lumas (Low 2-C)

BUT WAIT.
It gets better.

Reclusa is capable of a feat nobody has ever reached in the franchise --- disarming the Bros.
He does this in multiple instances:


Weeping Reclusa can stagger Luigi.
And more importantly...


Weeping Core can disarm the Bros with blunt force.

You wanna know who CAN'T disarm the Bros with blunt force?
With an attack specifically derived from his AP?
While the Bros weren't buffed?


(Is the video working? If it isn't, click the link above. )

Reclusa > Dreamy Bowser (2-B)

Reclusa scales to both his dream worlds AND the worlds and people he destroys:

You may recall that Reclusa is a being that turns loneliness into energy (Glohm), giving him his form and power
Once he is done killing everybody, he manifests a new physical form in another dimension by gathering enough Glohm (concept he introduces) in the new dimension.
This is done through his egg.

Reclusa's egg is the source of his power, and is fueled by the very world's isolation.
When Reclusa hatches, he creates the Soli-tree from his egg. The egg exploding immediately turns the sky of (at least) the planet red.
This also later creates a pillar of Glohm that shoots into the sky, displaying even MORE energy.

The egg is both the SEED of the Soli-tree and EGG of Reclusa, and gained all of it's energy from the same source.
The Soli-tree is equal to Reclusa (with Reclusa's death destroying the Soli-tree, and everything it made) and made all of the dreams, and is where he siphons his power from.
(See how it's completely in sync with his expressions, and how when he starts expending more energy, it does the same.)

Everything Reclusa did in and out of dreams is Glohm-related, and it is a UES.
He pulls from the same power source, so his dream-manipulation feats are scalable to him ALONG with his real world feats.

1. He uses Glohm as his power source, is made of it, and created it
2. His egg is made entirely of Glohm
3. This egg scales directly to everybody in the world, as that's where it's from
4. (This means he's directly stated to have the power of everybody infected with Glohm (and the world itself)
5. He can use it in the real world to create the Soli-tree, which spawns from and scales to his egg
6. The Soli-tree directly scales to Reclusa, the dreams, and the world, as Glohm made all three from the same power source and amount through his egg
7. Reclusa = Egg = World = Dreams = Glohm = Soli-tree

"Destroying the Uni-Tree was a good start to the scheme."
"Then I used Glohm to sever connections between both the land and its people."
"All so that Reclusa could come into this world!"

To add onto this, Glohm is inherently volatile to everything, and is a direct inverse of Bonds, which are described as "limitless power"
("Connectar: Limitless Power" By Dr Vulko)
that holds worlds together.
Glohm, as the inverse, does the opposite, creating voids (like Glohm Bowser), instantly killing anyone who is exposed to too much of it (Weeping Reclusa's Glohm Aura) and altering space and time itself (Zokket does this during his fight directly, space distorts when Reclusa gets angry)

This is for 2-B via upscale and Glohm.

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

---

The Abilities
Here, I'll list off Reclusa's powers.
Glohm, being his power source, is scalable to all of his techniques. He is shown to use it to transform into Weeping Core, Weeping Reclusa, and to create the Soli-Tree, which created the dream worlds.

Glohm: Besides being an energy source, it can also corrupt others, making them hateful.

Energy Manipulation, Mind Manipulation and Corruption (Type 2) (1 Layer)

He can also use Glohm Fog to one-shot most foes

Petrification: Like his inspiration, Medusa, Reclusa can turn others into stone.

Creation: Of dream worlds and monsters, some being boss-level in terms of strength.

Reality Warping: Reclusa should be able to use all the same techniques as Zokket and Glohm Bowser, who can warp reality in various ways, including Spatial Manipulation, Air Manipulation, and creating pipes from nothing. He is shown to be able to manipulate dark, fire, ice, and plants as is.

Invulnerability, Information Analysis and Reactive Evolution: Reclusa has the ability to read attacks when he's in Weeping Core form. Upon the first hit, he will begin to analyze. On the second, he will be done analyzing, and will become effectively immune to the attack. He never forgets attacks he's analyzed, even after leaving Weeping Core form.

Incorporeality: At most, Reclusa is an embodiment of the concept of Isolation. At least, he is made of energy.

Existence Erasure (in the dream world): He claims to be able to do this, and does do it to the AI civilians of the dream.

Cloning: He can create physical or non-physical copies of himself with varying degrees of strength at will. This one has as much HP as a boss would (you can tell it's a clone because the real Reclusa appears 15 seconds later), and all of them can attack. It's implied that there's one of these in each Reclusa dream world.

This is for Reclusa's abilities.

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Incorporeality: At most, Reclusa is an embodiment of the concept of Isolation. At least, he is made of energy.

sure

Existence Erasure (in the dream world): He claims to be able to do this, and does do it to the AI civilians of the dream.

sure

Spatial Manipulation

sure

Energy Manipulation, Mind Manipulation and Corruption (Type 2) (1 Layer)
He can also use Glohm Fog to one-shot most foes

Energy maybe not sure if this example mind haxes or corrupts the bros

Petrification: Like his inspiration, Medusa, Reclusa can turn others into stone.

I agree, however, the petrification wears off eventually, or maybe the devs secretly knew the bros can resist petrification cause they do so in NSMB2

Reclusa should be able to use all the same techniques as Zokket and Glohm Bowser,

I might have missed a step but huh?

 

[Galactidot]

I might have missed a step but huh?

Reclusa created Glohm and gave those two their power

 

[JPTheGamer]

In the same boat as Zesp

 

[Armorchompy]

Probably won't be able to comment today

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Looks fine. Neutral on 2-B currently. Maybe my internet is bad but i can’t see some things

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

My conclusions from last thread I personally agree with of course; the stuff that High 3-A to Low 2-C range being a minimum interpretation. As for everything else, I think they should be handled in separate threads/projects before debating here as I have said. The Lumas + Rosalina thing deserves its own thread for scaling, and on paper, the Great Conductor thing seems vague on whether or not he is equal with Zeekeeper, though it is implied sort of that not even Zeekeeper could stop Reclusa on his own. And upscaling from Dreamy Bowser, the wiki again currently treats Mario and Luigi defeating Dreamy Bowser as an outlier, and unless as I said someone creates an organized blog post elaborating why "Power of Bonds" should be treated as a universal energy system within the Mario verse similar to what Saint Seiya having one for how "Power of Friendship" works or something of that nature.

 

[I'm_here_to_teach]

I havent played this but from what i can see Im fine with High 3-a and low 2c.

I personally didnt see anything showing he can effect all the worlds at once outside of the dream powered stone but Im not completely sold on it scaling to all the worlds but I mean the possibility is their .

Though it seems like he can erase multiple characters at once so im fine with a possible 2b rating.

all the hax im fine with .

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The powers and abilities listed I forgot to comment on, I share more or less the same takes as ZespeanGalaxy.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'll do this half first.

Upscaling and Glohm (2-B)

In Mario and Luigi Brothership, there are things known as Rare Reefs, which can be found across the ocean. One of them shows us someone familiar.

The Zeekeeper is a thing across the multiverse. Nice to get confirmation of this after so long, and this actually leads into some interesting scaling...

In the story of Mario and Luigi Brothership, we learn of the Great Conductor, a similar guardian. He is a guardian of bonds. He tells us this:

As already established, Reclusa travels the multiverse destroying worlds, and this explains how Reclusa was never defeated before --- nobody could, not even each world's respective guardians.

No proof is given that these guardians are actually comparable to the Zeekeper - having the same position [provided "dream guardian" is an official thing rather than just a task some creatures take up of their own will] doesn't imply comparable power, and you haven't proved that they do to begin with ("being a similar being to the Zeekeeper" requires a source to not just be headcanon, and "from whom ALL dreamers take cues" strongly implies he is one of a kind).

And the Zeekeeper wouldn't let this guy fly.

Assuming that some off-screen battle happened with no logic beyond "it would make sense" is not viable grounds for scaling. Especially because...

Also, Rosalina, guardian of the universe in the Mushroom Kingdom, would also fall --- remember, Reclusa is capable of killing everyone there, too. Lumas and all.

... I don't think Rosalina would "let this fly" either, not any more than the Zeekeeper. If we're being consistent and saying Zee would attack Reclusa, so would Rosalina - and yet she's well and alive and continues to show up in spinoffs. Given Reclusa would certainly kill her given the chance, this is a hole in your reasoning.

Reclusa is capable of a feat nobody has ever reached in the franchise --- disarming the Bros.
He does this in multiple instances:

You wanna know who CAN'T disarm the Bros with blunt force?
With an attack specifically derived from his AP?
While the Bros weren't buffed?

Reclusa > Dreamy Bowser (2-B)

This is a baffling argument. Are you saying a 2-B character does not have the AP to disarm a tier 6 character? Dreamy Bowser did not disarm the bros because he wasn't trying to and the devs didn't want him to (in the same way they didn't want him to just turn them into atoms, given the AP difference), not because he was unable. I have no words. By that logic Thwomps have the AP to flatten Mario & Luigi, whereas they remain 3D after Reclusa's attacks. So really your average Thwomp should be At least 2-B, likely higher.

... By the way, here's Bowser X disarming the bros.

Glohm: Besides being an energy source, it can also corrupt others, making them hateful.

I don't doubt this but you still require scans.

He can also use Glohm Fog to one-shot most foes

I'm not sure what you're suggesting this should be.

Petrification: Like his inspiration, Medusa, Reclusa can turn others into stone.

This is fine but don't put the Medusa bit in the profile, it's not relevant. You should also mention it wears off after a few seconds.

Creation: Of dream worlds and monsters, some being boss-level in terms of strength.

I would list the dream world stuff separately as dream manipulation, but sure (provided the monsters are also made IRL and not just in the dreams, but I think that's the case).

Reality Warping: Reclusa should be able to use all the same techniques as Zokket and Glohm Bowser, who can warp reality in various ways, including Spatial Manipulation, Air Manipulation, and creating pipes from nothing. He is shown to be able to manipulate dark, fire, ice, and plants as is.

You should just list these as the powers that they are rather than RW - although I don't doubt he just has the ability anyway.

Invulnerability, Information Analysis and Reactive Evolution: Reclusa has the ability to read attacks when he's in Weeping Core form. Upon the first hit, he will begin to analyze. On the second, he will be done analyzing, and will become effectively immune to the attack. He never forgets attacks he's analyzed, even after leaving Weeping Core form.

Don't list the wiki as a source, that's not allowed. For the rest this is fine but it "minimizes" the damage, so it's clearly not Invulnerability, just IA and RE.

Incorporeality: At most, Reclusa is an embodiment of the concept of Isolation. At least, he is made of energy.

Reclusa (as well as the allegedly also conceptual goons the scan is referring to) is clearly tangible, attacks hit him, he doesn't ever phase through things or appear as anything but a tangible material object. At best the "made of energy" thing - which again has no scans BTW - would be inorganic physiology.

Existence Erasure (in the dream world): He claims to be able to do this, and does do it to the AI civilians of the dream.

I don't think that should be taken literally. If you have a scan for the latter half post it.

Cloning: He can create physical or non-physical copies of himself with varying degrees of strength at will. This one has as much HP as a boss would (you can tell it's a clone because the real Reclusa appears 15 seconds later), and all of them can attack. It's implied that there's one of these in each Reclusa dream world.

The ability is fine but can you stop stating things without evidence? What do you mean "it's implied" am I supposed to just take your word for it?

We're at a count of

 

[Galactidot]

I'll do this half first.

No proof is given that these guardians are actually comparable to the Zeekeper - having the same position [provided "dream guardian" is an official thing rather than just a task some creatures take up of their own will] doesn't imply comparable power, and you haven't proved that they do to begin with ("being a similar being to the Zeekeeper" requires a source to not just be headcanon, and "from whom ALL dreamers take cues" strongly implies he is one of a kind).

There is certainly only one Zeekeeper, I'm basically saying here that Reclusa is greater than Zeekeeper, and all other beings with similar roles, like Rosalina and The Great Conductor.

Assuming that some off-screen battle happened with no logic beyond "it would make sense" is not viable grounds for scaling. Especially because...

... I don't think Rosalina would "let this fly" either, not any more than the Zeekeeper. If we're being consistent and saying Zee would attack Reclusa, so would Rosalina - and yet she's well and alive and continues to show up in spinoffs. Given Reclusa would certainly kill her given the chance, this is a hole in your reasoning.

Rosalina and the Zeekeeper are alive, point being because Reclusa didn't get to fight them --- the Bros killed him first, as they're the only ones capable of doing so in the verse.

This is a baffling argument. Are you saying a 2-B character does not have the AP to disarm a tier 6 character? Dreamy Bowser did not disarm the bros because he wasn't trying to and the devs didn't want him to (in the same way they didn't want him to just turn them into atoms, given the AP difference), not because he was unable. I have no words. By that logic Thwomps have the AP to flatten Mario & Luigi, whereas they remain 3D after Reclusa's attacks. So really your average Thwomp should be At least 2-B, likely higher.

... By the way, here's Bowser X disarming the bros.

Bowser X's disarming was done through the inhale, which is a skill that doesn't use any sort of force.

As for the Thwomps, we literally see Sniffle Thwomps get countered by the hammer too.

And Dreamy Bowser certainly would try to disarm them, given he has another attack where he uses magic to levitate a Bro towards him as a strategy.
Also, if he pulls off the attack, the Brother hit gets stunned. Reclusa can stun even after a successful counter.

This is fine but don't put the Medusa bit in the profile, it's not relevant. You should also mention it wears off after a few seconds.

I wasn't going to include the Medusa bit, mind you.

I would list the dream world stuff separately as dream manipulation, but sure (provided the monsters are also made IRL and not just in the dreams, but I think that's the case).
You should just list these as the powers that they are rather than RW - although I don't doubt he just has the ability anyway.

Agreed.

Don't list the wiki as a source, that's not allowed. For the rest this is fine but it "minimizes" the damage, so it's clearly not Invulnerability, just IA and RE.

I had videos, but I lost them. I'll try to upload them as soon as possible.

Reclusa (as well as the allegedly also conceptual goons the scan is referring to) is clearly tangible, attacks hit him, he doesn't ever phase through things or appear as anything but a tangible material object. At best the "made of energy" thing - which again has no scans BTW - would be inorganic physiology.

I gave the made of energy scan, it's one of the two possible interpretations for the translation. By the way, Reclusa is capable of phasing himself and his attacks in and out of existence and/or vision.

I don't think that should be taken literally. If you have a scan for the latter half post it.

I will.

The ability is fine but can you stop stating things without evidence? What do you mean "it's implied" am I supposed to just take your word for it?

Reclusa is shown to be within each dream world. He just hides somewhere in each.

We're at a count of

Did you accidentally hit post?

 

[Armorchompy]

I am now going to respond to the @DarkDragonMedeus half of the post.

However, "Destroying worlds until there is nothing left" would pretty much have to be High 3-A at bare minimum. It is consistently stated throughout the series that universes are infinite in size individually or "Contain infinite space." And the recent remasters of both Galaxy games added more lore to the story books doubling down on it. "Taking an eternity" I'm quite positive we can interpret as a hyperbole as the OP did bring up points that his backstory basically confirms he has destroyed/devoured "Other worlds" before. While it does prove he doesn't do this instantly, nor can he do it to more than one universe at the same time, the fact remains is that he can consume an infinite sized world within a finite amount of time. I see this as High 3-A minimum, possibly Low 2-C if time was included.

Alright so here is the first and frankly most obvious problem with high 3-A. It says "worlds" here, not universes. No argument has been made as to why the latter interpretation should be chosen, and there are additional problems. I will be referencing posts from the previous thread.

But also by the mere fact that Glohm is enough to destroy a world until there's nothing left. We can also believe he scales to these worlds as he just said he's taking it for himself, as he's proved to be capable of hundreds of times. Remember, he specifically ENDS THESE WORLDS. Whether these be universes or planets, he scales regardless.

The scans here seem to back up Dot/DDM's interpretation but in reality they actually highlight the massive flaw with it. The wording here is VERY bizarre. Reclusa says that "the world will be over" and that "he will play with it until it is gone". This is very notable because Reclusa's whole thing is that he traps people inside dream worlds where they are isolated until they slowly die. Let's look at what comes right before the quote in the last scan:

​

"Now everyone is having fun in the little dreams I've prepared for them. And with everyone off in their own little worlds, MY world will be nice and quiet! Solitude is sublime! This is how I've broken everyone's connections...in so many worlds!"​

​

Snoutlet: "Ergh... how can anyone LIVE without support from other folks?"​

​

"Hah! They caaan't! Gahahahahahaha! All that awaits them is a slow demise! I'm so thrilled for this world to end! Everyone will be cluelessly alone! The world will be over before anyone knows what happened!"​

Presented out of context the quote already seemed weird, but reading the conversation as it plays out it becomes exceedingly clear that the "world's end" that Reclusa is referring to here is very clearly and explicitly the death of all its inhabitants. This is what he does, he sticks them in dream worlds until they die. And mind you, he is explicitly stating that THIS is what he's done in all the other worlds. He doesn't destroy the universe or even the planet, he "just" kills everyone in them.

When I brought up something along these lines last thread (although back then I was just theorizing, rather than straight-up knowing that the evidence was misleading), Galactidot said this:

Yeah sure and all but have you seen how in this franchise the worlds are literally dependent on the wishes and dreams of the people living within them?
Did you forget that the Pure Hearts are literally made from bonds? That these bonds scale to a multiverse-eating void?

Besides the lack of scans, if this is true it straight-up invalidates any potential assumption that Reclusa is actually destroying the universes. We know for a fact he kills all of a world's inhabitants, and according to this that would be enough to destroy a universe. Put simply this means that anyone with the ability to kill everyone would be able to cause tier 2 destruction without themselves being that strong.

 

[Galactidot]

Alright so here is the first and frankly most obvious problem with high 3-A. It says "worlds" here, not universes. No argument has been made as to why the latter interpretation should be chosen, and there are additional problems. I will be referencing posts from the previous thread.

There IS Concordia being called a parallel world, with dimension being used interchangeably.

The scans here seem to back up Dot/DDM's interpretation but in reality they actually highlight the massive flaw with it. The wording here is VERY bizarre. Reclusa says that "the world will be over" and that "he will play with it until it is gone". This is very notable because Reclusa's whole thing is that he traps people inside dream worlds where they are isolated until they slowly die. Let's look at what comes right before the quote in the last scan:

​

"Now everyone is having fun in the little dreams I've prepared for them. And with everyone off in their own little worlds, MY world will be nice and quiet! Solitude is sublime! This is how I've broken everyone's connections...in so many worlds!"​

​

Snoutlet: "Ergh... how can anyone LIVE without support from other folks?"​

​

"Hah! They caaan't! Gahahahahahaha! All that awaits them is a slow demise! I'm so thrilled for this world to end! Everyone will be cluelessly alone! The world will be over before anyone knows what happened!"​

Presented out of context the quote already seemed weird, but reading the conversation as it plays out it becomes exceedingly clear that the "world's end" that Reclusa is referring to here is very clearly and explicitly the death of all its inhabitants. This is what he does, he sticks them in dream worlds until they die. And mind you, he is explicitly stating that THIS is what he's done in all the other worlds. He doesn't destroy the universe or even the planet, he "just" kills everyone in them.

True, but the world ending (everyone dies) is very different from the world is gone. I believe he's referring to both separately.

See, I can see your point with everyone being dead being the end of the world.

But him saying he'll play with the world (world being the direct subject matter) until its gone...

He essentially said that the world will be over, which is vague, I understand...

But him saying he'll play with the world, not the people, until it's gone, not they're gone, is noteworthy to take into account.

When I brought up something along these lines last thread (although back then I was just theorizing, rather than straight-up knowing that the evidence was misleading), Galactidot said this:

Besides the lack of scans, if this is true it straight-up invalidates any potential assumption that Reclusa is actually destroying the universes. We know for a fact he kills all of a world's inhabitants, and according to this that would be enough to destroy a universe. Put simply this means that anyone with the ability to kill everyone would be able to cause tier 2 destruction without themselves being that strong.

This is moreso to imply that people scale to a world when they all work together. This is a known fact, and doesn't invalidate anything.

 

[Armorchompy]

There is certainly only one Zeekeeper, I'm basically saying here that Reclusa is greater than Zeekeeper, and all other beings with similar roles, like Rosalina and The Great Conductor.

But your logic is already flawed here. Rosalina is only Low 2-C, the Zeekeper is 2-B. You can't argue that the Conductor and the other dream beings Reclusa fought and beat were equal to the ones we know, when those are already literal infinities apart from one another.

Bowser X's disarming was done through the inhale, which is a skill that doesn't use any sort of force.

What do you think wind is, hax? Suction is a type of force.

As for the Thwomps, we literally see Sniffle Thwomps get countered by the hammer too.

I am trying to show you that "Dream Bowser doesn't do this with his attacks" is a stupid thing to argue because they can't have everything happen. "X disarmed them while DBowser's attacks couldn't" is equally as valid of an argument as "Y flattened them while DBowser's attacks couldn't" - which is to say not at all.

And Dreamy Bowser certainly would try to disarm them, given he has another attack where he uses magic to levitate a Bro towards him as a strategy. Also, if he pulls off the attack, the Brother hit gets stunned. Reclusa can stun even after a successful counter.

He certainly wouldn't try, given he provably doesn't. I'm sorry but there is simply no world in which you can argue that a 2-B would be unable to disarm a High 6-A. If the fight was portrayed even slightly realistically, getting stunned/disarmed would not happen because they would be completely GONE after the first attack, not even atoms left. The fact that they don't already means the fight is so unrealistic that no conclusions can be drawn from it other than "gee Super Mario doesn't behave according to our powerscaling standards".

I could resort to other arguments like "Bowser could've been holding back" or "Bowser would have no reason to disarm enemies infinitely weaker than them" but that is more than this absolutely insane argument warrants. With that said a lot of provably non 2-B enemies are perfectly capable of stunning the bros.

I wasn't going to include the Medusa bit, mind you.

Fair enough.

I had videos, but I lost them. I'll try to upload them as soon as possible.

Sure, no rush.

I gave the made of energy scan, it's one of the two possible interpretations for the translation. By the way, Reclusa is capable of phasing himself and his attacks in and out of existence and/or vision.

I'd like to see scans for this too.

I will.

Reclusa is shown to be within each dream world. He just hides somewhere in each.

Alright, but you'd still need a scan.

Did you accidentally hit post?

More like I forgot to delete that bit. Ignore it.

 

[Galactidot]

But your logic is already flawed here. Rosalina is only Low 2-C, the Zeekeper is 2-B. You can't argue that the Conductor and the other dream beings Reclusa fought and beat were equal to the ones we know, when those are already literal infinities apart from one another.

Not exactly... I'm not saying there are other dream beings, I'm saying there are other powerful beings Reclusa fought, sure. They need at least be 2-C to protect the world? Likely.

But I'm trying to explain that we are told that Reclusa could take down the Mushroom Kingdom, which Rosalina would protect...

...and that he could take down the Zeekeeper, as The Great Conductor tells us that ONLY Mario and Luigi could beat him, and Zeekeeper is relevant considering Reclusa's defilement of dreams, which it is his job to defend!

What do you think wind is, hax? Suction is a type of force.

It is a type of force, but pulling items out of Mario's bag is very different from outdoing his direct force from a hammer swing.

I am trying to show you that "Dream Bowser doesn't do this with his attacks" is a stupid thing to argue because they can't have everything happen. "X disarmed them while DBowser's attacks couldn't" is equally as valid of an argument as "Y flattened them while DBowser's attacks couldn't" - which is to say not at all.

Reclusa is simply rolling, and Reclusa is shown to be able to overpower Bowser (same as Bowser X, who is just Bowser not holding back) with raw strength on screen.

He certainly wouldn't try, given he provably doesn't. I'm sorry but there is simply no world in which you can argue that a 2-B would be unable to disarm a High 6-A. If the fight was portrayed even slightly realistically, getting stunned/disarmed would not happen because they would be completely GONE after the first attack, not even atoms left. The fact that they don't already means the fight is so unrealistic that no conclusions can be drawn from it other than "gee Super Mario doesn't behave according to our powerscaling standards".

I noted the power of bonds, It's important to note that the Bros were in an empowered state during these confrontations. They were actually WEAKER fighting Dreamy Bowser.

I could resort to other arguments like "Bowser could've been holding back" or "Bowser would have no reason to disarm enemies infinitely weaker than them" but that is more than this absolutely insane argument warrants. With that said a lot of provably non 2-B enemies are perfectly capable of stunning the bros.

Like, I'm talking arm strength here. On a successful counter. Not one the Bros failed. Reclusa is the only one to get away with taking minimal damage, disarming the Bros, and barely getting knocked back upon a SUCCESSFUL counter. Do you have examples of foes who stun or disarm the Bros when they successfully counter the attack?

 

[JPTheGamer]

Alright so here is the first and frankly most obvious problem with high 3-A. It says "worlds" here, not universes. No argument has been made as to why the latter interpretation should be chosen, and there are additional problems. I will be referencing posts from the previous thread.

"Worlds" are usually referred to as either planets or universes in fiction; nobody depicts them as stars, solar systems, or even galaxies as much as they do with the first two. Seeing as how there's more than just planets in these instances, it should imply that these "worlds" can potentially be the size of universes.

 

[Galactidot]

"Worlds" are usually referred to as either planets or universes in fiction; nobody depicts them as stars, solar systems, or even galaxies as much as they do with the first two. Seeing as how there's more than just planets in these instances, it should imply that these "worlds" can potentially be the size of universes.

True

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

"Worlds" are usually referred to as either planets or universes in fiction; nobody depicts them as stars, solar systems, or even galaxies as much as they do with the first two. Seeing as how there's more than just planets in these instances, it should imply that these "worlds" can potentially be the size of universes.

I think Executor N0 explained it best on another thread, but the general definition of Sekai 世界 (Which MTLs such as Google Translate translate to world). Basically means "All time and space", and can likely mean "All existence." Context may be key, but what we do know is the various "Worlds" he destroyed in the past are located in different bodies of Space. Ultimately, I'd like to see what Japanese Raws say and have translators look at it. But if there was Isekai 異世界 (Which means Alternate world(s) or Parallel world(s) especially. Then them being parallel universes would be as blatant as could be.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Wait so is the CRT also about making the bros beating Dreamy Bowser not an outlier and scaling it to their strength in Brothership? If not than I don't think the disarming argument really works.

 

[Galactidot]

Wait so is the CRT also about making the bros beating Dreamy Bowser not an outlier and scaling it to their strength in Brothership? If not than I don't think the disarming argument really works.

Yes, I also noted in the post to specify what you agree and disagree with, so the disarming thing isn't the full argument. Basically it's structured so that we can examine 3-A to 2-C, 2-B, and abilities separately.

But yeah, you can see that The Great Conductor considers the Bros bonds powerful even before reaching Concordia. More powerful than anything else in the multiverse for that matter, which would heavily explain the defeat of Dreamy Bowser and other foes. Bonds are essentially just Pure Hearts without form, after all!

 

[Armorchompy]

"Worlds" are usually referred to as either planets or universes in fiction; nobody depicts them as stars, solar systems, or even galaxies as much as they do with the first two. Seeing as how there's more than just planets in these instances, it should imply that these "worlds" can potentially be the size of universes.

"Seeing as how there's more than just planets" - who said that? Obviously a universe exists but that doesn't imply that's what's being talked about here.

Not exactly... I'm not saying there are other dream beings, I'm saying there are other powerful beings Reclusa fought, sure. They need at least be 2-C to protect the world? Likely.

"Likely" doesn't mean shit. It means it's just a theory and while it might be true, you cannot prove that it is and proof is what VSBW requires.

But I'm trying to explain that we are told that Reclusa could take down the Mushroom Kingdom, which Rosalina would protect...

...and that he could take down the Zeekeeper, as The Great Conductor tells us that ONLY Mario and Luigi could beat him, and Zeekeeper is relevant considering Reclusa's defilement of dreams, which it is his job to defend!

The Great Conductor isn't omniscient. He's not even from this universe, he doesn't even know

It is a type of force, but pulling items out of Mario's bag is very different from outdoing his direct force from a hammer swing.

So Mario & Luigi can resist a 2-B's attempt to hit the hammer away from their hands, but can be overpowered by infinitely weaker suction? This makes no sense.

Reclusa is simply rolling, and Reclusa is shown to be able to overpower Bowser (same as Bowser X, who is just Bowser not holding back) with raw strength on screen.

I noted the power of bonds, It's important to note that the Bros were in an empowered state during these confrontations. They were actually WEAKER fighting Dreamy Bowser.

Correct, they were not 2-B against Dreamy Bowser and thus them being able to resist an attempt at disarming them is PIS and thus not viable for scaling.

This is assuming that Bowser was attempting to disarm them which you have no proof of. You can say "Oh it would make sense" but A: that's not enough and B: bowser is a moron so just because it's a smart thing to do doesn't mean he'll do it.

 

[Ningenron]

but the general definition of Sekai 世界 (Which MTLs such as Google Translate translate to world). Basically means "All time and space", and can likely mean "All existence."

I’m genuinely baffled at how you managed to be so completely wrong about something this simple and clear. No, it doesn’t mean ‘all of existence’ or ‘all time and space’, it just means ‘the world,’ plain and simple. And MTLs translating it that way isn’t wrong, because that’s literally just what the kanji means. It’s not like it’s a sentence where the context and nuance could be hidden somewhere; it’s just a single kanji.

 

[JPTheGamer]

"Seeing as how there's more than just planets" - who said that? Obviously a universe exists but that doesn't imply that's what's being talked about here.

I didn't say anyone stated that; I was referring to the Dream Worlds as they contain more than just planets

 

[Armorchompy]

I didn't say anyone stated that; I was referring to the Dream Worlds as they contain more than just planets

But this is talking about the IRL tangible worlds that Reclusa destroys, not the dream ones.

 

[JPTheGamer]

I’m genuinely baffled at how you managed to be so completely wrong about something this simple and clear. No, it doesn’t mean ‘all of existence’ or ‘all time and space’, it just means ‘the world,’ plain and simple. And MTLs translating it that way isn’t wrong, because that’s literally just what the kanji means. It’s not like it’s a sentence where the context and nuance could be hidden somewhere; it’s just a single kanji.

Sekai can also mean universe, not just world.

 

[JPTheGamer]

But this is talking about the IRL tangible worlds that Reclusa destroys, not the dream ones.

These IRL worlds also contain more than just planets and stars throughout the series; the worlds in the Super Mario Galaxy games contain galaxies in them, for one.

 

[Ningenron]

Sekai can also mean universe, not just world.

Well no, ‘universe’ is 宇宙, not 世界. These cherry picked dictionaries you pulled without any comprehension don’t change that. And it’s not ‘also means’ but ‘it can mean,’ which is a completely different nuance that all depends on context

 

[JPTheGamer]

Well no, ‘universe’ is 宇宙, not 世界. These cherry picked dictionaries you pulled without any comprehension don’t change that. And it’s not ‘also means’ but ‘it can mean,’ which is a completely different nuance that all depends on context

Just because the definition of the translation is "world" DOESN'T mean that it isn't a universe; like I said, a world is usually referred to as either a planet or universe in fiction.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Just because the definition of the translation is "world" DOESN'T mean that it isn't a universe; like I said, a world is usually referred to as either a planet or universe in fiction.

They were just saying the kanji doesn't generally mean all of time and space like DDM said it did, not that in the right context it wouldn't mean universe you just made up an entirely new argument nobody was making.

 

[JPTheGamer]

They were just saying it doesn't automatically mean all of existence like DDM said it did, not that in the right context it wouldn't mean universe you just made up an entirely new argument nobody was making.

Existence has multiple meanings; it can refer to humanity as a whole, one's life on this planet, the Earth, or even the entire universe. Our universe is scientifically stated to comprise "all of existence"; that means it contains planets, stars, solar systems, and even galaxies, not just one planet. And most people by today's standard often call it a "world".

 

[Dust_Collector]

Again, you're trying to make a point nobody was arguing against.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Again, you're trying to make a point nobody was arguing against.

Well, even if the kanji doesn't automatically translate to things like "all of existence" or "all of time and space", that's not to say these worlds in Super Mario aren't universes and don't contain all of "existence" or "time and space", especially when you take into account their size due to the structures they contain like galaxies in the worlds in the Super Mario Galaxy games rather than just planets. And seeing as how the term "world" can mean things like a planet or a universe, it should further imply that these worlds in the verse can potentially be universes or reach the size of universes.

 

[SeijiSetto]

I think Executor N0 explained it best on another thread, but the general definition of Sekai 世界 (Which MTLs such as Google Translate translate to world). Basically means "All time and space", and can likely mean "All existence." Context may be key, but what we do know is the various "Worlds" he destroyed in the past are located in different bodies of Space. Ultimately, I'd like to see what Japanese Raws say and have translators look at it. But if there was Isekai 異世界 (Which means Alternate world(s) or Parallel world(s) especially. Then them being parallel universes would be as blatant as could be.

+1ing ningenron, you appear to be very confidently wrong
sekai is probably closest to the english word "world", and just like "world", it can mean several things depending on context, from society to planet to universe and a multitude of things between
taking it as "all time and space"/"all existence" by default doesn't make any sense

 

[Galactidot]

Yes, I also noted in the post to specify what you agree and disagree with, so the disarming thing isn't the full argument. Basically it's structured so that we can examine 3-A to 2-C, 2-B, and abilities separately.

But yeah, you can see that The Great Conductor considers the Bros bonds powerful even before reaching Concordia. More powerful than anything else in the multiverse for that matter, which would heavily explain the defeat of Dreamy Bowser and other foes. Bonds are essentially just Pure Hearts without form, after all!

Okay, just bumping this up, but...

GUYS, WHAT ON EARTH IS GOING ON HERE?!

This whole thing about the meaning of "sekai" is pointless! I dont believe DarkDragonMedeus had any ill will in his statement.

He simply deconstructed the Kanji. Yes, that gave a skewed result and is more akin to finding Latin roots of words than knowing the definition. The word's origins sometimes have no real bearing on the current meaning.

We literally just need the context, which we all should acknowledge is the case.

Don't act like you all haven't made such rudimentary mistakes either...

 

[Galactidot]

"Likely" doesn't mean shit. It means it's just a theory and while it might be true, you cannot prove that it is and proof is what VSBW requires.

Im stating the fact that Rosalina didn't create the MULTIVERSE. Im literally just saying that whoever made/protects each universe scales to it, and Reclusa beat them. It's that simple.

The Great Conductor isn't omniscient. He's not even from this universe, he doesn't even know

I just explained why that doesn't matter. If the people know about the multiversal dream guardian, the wise pig sage who could detect the power of beings throughout the multiverse (outright a PLOT POINT of his) probably DOES, in fact, know.

So Mario & Luigi can resist a 2-B's attempt to hit the hammer away from their hands, but can be overpowered by infinitely weaker suction? This makes no sense.

I dont think you realize how different the suction is from a traditional vacuum force. Command blocks literally allow you to move. They are a canonized menu system. He took away their button with what could be considered toon force, not the item itself.

Correct, they were not 2-B against Dreamy Bowser and thus them being able to resist an attempt at disarming them is PIS and thus not viable for scaling.

Remember? Bond/Glohm are UES?

This is assuming that Bowser was attempting to disarm them which you have no proof of. You can say "Oh it would make sense" but A: that's not enough and B: bowser is a moron so just because it's a smart thing to do doesn't mean he'll do it.

Reclusa wasn't attempting to disarm them. He was trying to roll over them. I never said BOWSER was. It's a byproduct of taking extreme force.
This doesn't mean jack shit.

 

[SeijiSetto]

Don't act like you all haven't made such rudimentary mistakes either...

it's not a rudimentary mistake where you slightly flubbed or misremembered the meaning or something (like you say, everyone does this, if someone slightly mistranslated something because they read a kanji wrong or thought it meant a slightly different thing to what it actually did then yeah whatever you'd just say "oops my bad" and move on)
it's saying something that just isn't true because you don't know what actually is true

 

[Galactidot]

it's not a rudimentary mistake where you slightly flubbed or misremembered the meaning or something (like you say, everyone does this, if someone slightly mistranslated something because they read a kanji wrong or thought it meant a slightly different thing to what it actually did then yeah whatever you'd just say "oops my bad" and move on)
it's saying something that just isn't true because you don't know what actually is true

I'm quite literally just choosing to believe he's innocent until proven guilty here, he hasn't been on in hours to clear it up, there's no use in this finger pointing as of now.

 

[Galactidot]

E

However...

Do you think you could verify this translation while you're here?

It's been a point of contention for a while

Of course, it's entirely up to you, though it would be greatly appreciated~

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I’m genuinely baffled at how you managed to be so completely wrong about something this simple and clear. No, it doesn’t mean ‘all of existence’ or ‘all time and space’, it just means ‘the world,’ plain and simple. And MTLs translating it that way isn’t wrong, because that’s literally just what the kanji means. It’s not like it’s a sentence where the context and nuance could be hidden somewhere; it’s just a single kanji.

+1ing ningenron, you appear to be very confidently wrong
sekai is probably closest to the english word "world", and just like "world", it can mean several things depending on context, from society to planet to universe and a multitude of things between
taking it as "all time and space"/"all existence" by default doesn't make any sense

I was paraphrasing what @Executor_N0 has explained multiple times; particularly here, here, and here. If you both have problems with that, take it up with him instead of dogpiling onto me.

But yes, I know it translates to World in a general setting. And I never said the "Word" Sekai was a sentence. However "All Existence" or "All Time and Space" or "Everything that exists" is the very first description in most Japanese dictionaries. Executor also brought up links that listed 12 or more definitions, but the first and most highlighted was even mentioning it being derived from the Latin word "Mundus" or the Greek word "Kosmos". Which also happens to be where the English word "World" also originated from. But the original definition was intended to mean "everything that exists" or even a synonym for "Universe" which could by extension also mean "Multiverse" given the existence of cosmologies. Yes, World can also just mean planet or even just something smaller than a planet such as Old World (Europe, Asia, Africa) and New World (The Americas, Oceania, ect). But those are considered rarer cases, with the Japanese work Sekai also having such possibilities. But most Japanese works tend to be more consistent at meaning something more Cosmic in nature. And when various historical figures and/or philosophers in ancient past used it and/or when ancient religious figures used words whether it be "World," "Sekai," "Mundus," or "Kosmos," they all meant something cosmic and not just planet Earth.

But back to the main topic. Concordia is not just some random planet or random country within the same planet as Mushroom Kingdom, but a parallel world. Mario and Luigi were transported there via a dimensional portal and sucked into Mysterious Space. The story even qualifies as the narrative genre known as Isekai. But given it is one, a different body of space from what the Mushroom Kingdom is located, and even a "Parallel" world, it's obviously not located in some 4-A sized pocket dimension or a planet sized pocket dimension, but a parallel universe. As for Reclusa's "Devouring the entire world" statement, it is implied to be a spatial devouring given his method of doing so was forming a giant void, he has devoured many worlds, and actively travels to different dimensions (body of spaces) to devourer said worlds, I find it hard to believe anything he devourers is anything less than a universe. It shouldn't be a standard assumption that anything parallel to a literal universe is any smaller than said parallel universe. Mushroom Kingdom is obviously located in a universe with many galaxies and consistently stated to be infinite in size, which means "Parallel Worlds" must also be universes. Why would someone travel to different universes just to eat random planets instead of just traveling through space to devourer planets? If they ran out of planets in those other "Universes" is the next best interpretation, that would be more assumptive because one, devouring an infinite number of planets within a finite amount of time would be Infinite speed + still be High 3-A minimum. Which is even more assumptive; ultimately, Reclusa devouring universes is the most likely interpretation. And the OP still makes a good point about Great Conductor looking all over the worlds to truly find who can stop him given the threat he clearly gives off.

But more over, as I informed the OP in Discord. We should have waited or tackled other topics before making the thread or doing the rest of the stuff. Especially starting with the part about the Rosalina and Lumas that are updates as a result of the extended story book lore released in the remasters of Super Mario Galaxies 1 + 2.

 

[Galactidot]

But more over, as I informed the OP in Discord. We should have waited or tackled other topics before making the thread or doing the rest of the stuff. Especially starting with the part about the Rosalina and Lumas that are updates as a result of the extended story book lore released in the remasters of Super Mario Galaxies 1 + 2.

Mii apologies