UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE [shiny new] DISCUSSION THEAD

[Imaginym]

Don't quite get this one? Like there's a reason Toby specifically picked 800 for its DEF, and chances are nobody in CH5 and prob CH6 will have stats above those either, hell they probably won't even suprass the Spawn's DEF. It's basically the same thing as MTT's 255 DEF ya know?

Shrug. As said earlier, I'm willing to accept the Titan's 800 DF under the pretense of superiority to the Titan Spawn's 200 DF, which doesn't have such issues with its rating.

The first part of what it says there I copied from this Blog, If you want, I can remove the "deep" part

Apologies, but the reason I asked is "Deep cuts?" is because I am confused & uncertain & stuff about what damages are being referred to as "deep cuts".

Yes, the background is the one that appears in the Dark Fountains, but this whole part is strange, the Titan's sprite does not seem so big as to have this whole area inside, the pillar of the Fountain is not so big as to occupy the whole screen

How would you classify this?
It's just bigger on the inside than the outside, inconsistency, another little "world" inside the Dark Fountain?

Isn't the Titan's size notoriously inconsistent?

Otherwise, I'd call it a Possibly or Likely Pocket Reality Manipulation, since although they went into The Titan, not much other than the background & the Titan's supposedly inconsistent scale indicates they've gone to a different reality, as i understand it.

For now I'll change it to (Able to use magic much like the Darkners)

Sounds good.

The Titan Spawn appears to be the same as the smoke of darkness that comes out of the Dark Fountain, appearing in it and having a similar black and white design

Also in dark areas it could go through walls while flying, showing several walls when the light was turned on

I guess that makes sense. (Although the light being turned on part is weird, since the layout changes multiple times in Chapter 4 when the light is turned on.)

I only show the stats as a support argument, I get the Tier from the fact that the characters consider the Titan an almost impossible threat to beat, not acting the same with GIGA Queen, and for this calc that will soon be fully accepted

Noted.

I don't see the contentious part, Gerson shows himself physically superior to the Titan, breaking the Titan's shield with pure strength and it can withstand several Dual Busters without dying

I'd assume some take issue with scaling a secret boss to its own chapter's boss.
Besides that, he cracks the shield.
& Dual Busters are done not only in conjunction with Susie, but with the SOUL shining on Susie & The Old Man. Usually, the SOUL shines its power, so he & Susie are presumably getting a boost they normally don't get, as with Red Buster vs King & Queen.
Heck, there's the point about The Roaring Knight summoning The Titan then never being seen again, so either The Roaring Knight had something important to do, or it didn't want to fight it. Comparable? Superior?

I wrote this wrong, I don't think the Titan has pre-existing light, I meant this "The light of a human SOUL can annihilate its fingers by exposing this light in its multiple eyes"

I would say "onto" or "into" "its multiple eyes", but okay. Thank you very much for the clarification.

I will change this when I can

Thank you very much.

Not really, the profile states that darkness is what limits TP gathering

"Limited Power Nullification (Darkness is capable of constricting the Delta Warriors, reducing their TP Gain)"

While with this part

"Social Influencing (Instigating Fear - Described as "A shard of fear.", terrified the Delta Warriors to a point they had to gather COURAGE to gain TP [Tension Points], the atmosphere smelled like adrenaline while Kris could hear their own heart and Ralsei seemed terrified before the battle began and inside the battle he tried to stay calm)"

Only mentions that the Titan and Titan Spawn terrified the Delta Warriors so much that they need to collect Courage to gain TP, not that fear is what limits them in in the first place

But if you want, tell me how you want me to change it

Currently, it is written:
"Social Influencing (Instigating Fear - Terrified the Delta Warriors to a point they had to gather COURAGE to gain TP [Tension Points]"
If you want, maybe change it to something that mentions the darkness constricting part, like "Terrified the Delta Warriors to a point they had to gather COURAGE to gain TP [Tension Points], which was impeded by the constriction of darkness." or something? Does that read good?

Don't worry
I'm sleepy now, if I say something wrong you know who's to blame
If you all come to an agreement with something, edit the Sandbox for me

Thank you very much once again.

Arguably you can argue Low-High regeneration for the Titan, it originally forms from a dark fountain and it is implied it will keep regenerating as long as the dark fountain inside it is intact, although I'm not sure about this.

This sounds plausible.

My thoughts are such: for most part SOUL has some kind of physical form. In can be caged, it can be interacted via other physical objects. But it's non-physical when inside of Kris(for obvious reasons), and during battles(otherwise it wouldn't be able to exit Kris body freely, and go through obstacles in three solo Susie fights). Kris should still retain their NPI in Light World key, since they somehow able to grab intangible SOUL from inside their chest and take it out, without damage to themselves (does their hands become intangible too during this?)

3 solo Susie fights? (If we're counting HoJ, when does it go through obstacles there?)

Also, the in-battle intangibility is contradicted by Jackenstein's walls obstructing it.
Kris having NPI for grabbing the SOUL while it's in them in the Light World is a bit suspect, since the Light World is where the SOUL shows a ton of anti-feats for Intangibility. If that's LW Kris's only evidence for it, I'd rather call it a Possibly, since we don't know if there's special rules for when it's in Kris, & considering that it can't re-enter Kris from say, their hand, as shown when they carry it around. There's a lot of unknowns regarding the situation, IMHO.

Before release of chapters 3-4 Toby was teasing hardcore challenge. Now, if you manage to not get any trophies in PS version, you will be greeted with exslusive Gaster line. List of psn trophies: https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/34339-deltarune
In order to not get any trophies you jeed to:
-never use an item
-never equip any weapon or armor
-to not get hit more than (effectively) 4 times in chapter 1, and 7 times in other chapters
-never die(other than death from Annoying dog)
-speedrun climbing section

Can this be used for Fun Gang skill justifications?

I do like this. So long as nothing decanonizes the PS4 version, it seems reasonable.
Though, if you never get hit, the weapons & armor you have don't matter, since you have as many turns as you want/need. Dodging is all the SOUL's doing, so in theory, only the SOUL would need to dodge all that stuff.

Also, this would mean saying they can do stuff like damage The Titan with starting equipment like the Wood Blade, meaning we'd place a lot more weight on stuff like Level, rather than say, equipment, like The Justice Axe, The Black Shard, The Puppet Scarf, The Jevil's Knife, Jingle Blade, etc.

I also remember Tenna commenting on when the Delta Warriors don't receive any damage and dodge everything perfectly on Boards 1 and 2

This notion intrigues me.

 

[Comiphorous]

I don't like how Mr. Toby Fox made it so that you get permanently locked out of the Sword route if you don't get S-Rank in the first round and didn't make that clear so now I have to redo an hour and a half of gameplay

You can also get it by sucking ass.

 

[HASE-1929]

I don't like how Mr. Toby Fox made it so that you get permanently locked out of the Sword route if you don't get S-Rank in the first round and didn't make that clear so now I have to redo an hour and a half of gameplay

You can just grind points and buy a fake S ranking after the first round.
That's what I did

 

[Kellex]

I don't like how Mr. Toby Fox made it so that you get permanently locked out of the Sword route if you don't get S-Rank in the first round and didn't make that clear so now I have to redo an hour and a half of gameplay

If I remember correctly, there are ways to enter the backdoor even without S-Ranking.

1. Getting S-Rank on round 1 obviously, but there's also the Susiezilla minigame to S Rank. You have to pay 1500 points tho.
2. Sucking ass on all minigames like @Comiphorous said. This will grant you access to the Z-Room that leads to the backstage
3. Buy S-Rank from a Pippin, although I don't remember which one.

 

[OrangeFR]

For everyone that gave me advice, firstly, thank you. Secondly, I already reset my chapter 3 file to the start because I started r2 without getting S-Rank and I didn't know that would lock you out.

 

[Qurbonboev]

3 solo Susie fights? (If we're counting HoJ, when does it go through obstacles there?)

Vs Lancer, HoJ, SoJ. It goes through obstacles in Lancer and SoJ fights. And in all fights it freely goes through Kris chest.

Also, the in-battle intangibility is contradicted by Jackenstein's walls obstructing it.

Jackenstein walls are magical.

Kris having NPI for grabbing the SOUL while it's in them in the Light World is a bit suspect, since the Light World is where the SOUL shows a ton of anti-feats for Intangibility

If SOUL isn't intangible inside Kris, it would be pretty difficult for Kris to take it out, without severe wounds and bloodshed. And Kris apparently was scaring Noelle by saying that they would rip their SOUL out. So it's probably something that all DR humans can do.

 

[RinneItachi]

Observe peak.

 

[RinneItachi]

I SHARED IT IN THE WRONG THREAD LMFAO I'M GONNA KMS.

I'm not even deleting it...cry.

 

[Comiphorous]

Observe peak.

Chapter 3 got a real different style to the rest of the game.

 

[Lilybitdun]

Observe peak.

what this gotta do with undertale

 

[Ti58]

And Kris apparently was scaring Noelle by saying that they would rip their SOUL out. So it's probably something that all DR humans can do.

I am not sure about this.

 

[RinneItachi]

what this gotta do with undertale

Idk does anyone remember this from when Undertale Vines were a thing?



This has everything to do with it.

 

[RinneItachi]

I saw fanart of Genos as Mettaton and am reconsidering things.

 

[Sparkive]

I don't like how Mr. Toby Fox made it so that you get permanently locked out of the Sword route if you don't get S-Rank in the first round and didn't make that clear so now I have to redo an hour and a half of gameplay

I think that's the point, the weird route requires the player to really try, going off the beaten path in chapter 2, ways to block your path in chapter 3, and like 6 moments in chapter 4 where you can lose your weird route (including not going fast enough), until when you put the ring on Noelle, there's no turning back... Since you have to try hard to get it, all the bad things that happen will be your fault and no one else's.

 

[HASE-1929]

Very good theory, I believe it (But I think the forgotten man is real)

I'm meh on it.
I don't got any problems with it tho I think it works

 

[Imaginym]

Observe peak.

I SHARED IT IN THE WRONG THREAD LMFAO I'M GONNA KMS.

I'm not even deleting it...cry.

I can delete it for you, if you want.

Vs Lancer, HoJ, SoJ. It goes through obstacles in Lancer and SoJ fights. And in all fights it freely goes through Kris chest.

Lancer & King's projectiles go through characters outside of battle, too, though. If the argument is its "intangible during battle", why are overworld projectiles going through it? The waves on the roof of Queen's Mansion, the falling stars for the overworld quizzes in late Chapter 3....

If SOUL isn't intangible inside Kris, it would be pretty difficult for Kris to take it out, without severe wounds and bloodshed. And Kris apparently was scaring Noelle by saying that they would rip their SOUL out. So it's probably something that all DR humans can do.

A. The SOUL can go through Kris's chest (as though the chest itself were intangible.) to enter it, & Kris can also reach through there.
B. The SOUL is intangible while inside Kris's at all, & Kris has NPI for grabbing it.

My issue with B is that the SOUL has occasions where it would want to re-enter Kris but can't re-enter despite being in direct contact via the hand of Kris holding the SOUL.

If it were intangible by default, it wouldn't be able to be pushed around by the wind, confined by present boxes, etc.

I'd assume there's some weird conditionality going on, but how exactly it works is uncertain.

I am not sure about this.

Why not?
Though, FWIW, it is a bit shaky.

1. (When Kris was little, they'd take one of these...)
   (Then pretend to "rip out their heart" and chase me.) - Noelle, Chapter 4

As Noelle understood it, it was their "heart", & the act was pretending to "rip out their heart", suggesting she doesn't know a heart-shaped object is a SOUL. To me, it seems like her quoting of "rip out their heart", frames it like she thought it was about the organ, not a SOUL. (Which, considering heart-shapes are more often associated with the organ than one's spirit, & it would be a more gore-evocative prank for Kris to do to Noelle, makes sense, IMHO.)
There are literally books on this & Noelle is 1 of the top students, & her mom has pillows of the SOUL. Kris also did pranks like pretending to bleed & hiding under her bed to jump out because "human under the bed", as opposed to "monster under the bed". Considering all the pranks about human stuff, why wouldn't Noelle have studied this?

Why would Noelle not know a red, heart-shaped object is a SOUL & that humans can pull it out? There are books about humans in the local library, Kris just seems averse to reading them. (& arguably, reading in general.)


Humans aren't widely understood, either.

Not to mention, the SOUL represents the player & following the connection, was forced into Kris & it's implied they had some kind of deal.
IDK if their circumstances are normal for a human.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Lancer & King's projectiles go through characters outside of battgle, too, though.

Can you elaborate this point?

A. The SOUL can go through Kris's chest (as though the chest itself were intangible.) to enter it, & Kris can also reach through there.
B. The SOUL is intangible while inside Kris's at all, & Kris has NPI for grabbing it.

Idk, I prefer Kris having NPI over their chest literally being intangible

Not to mention, the SOUL represents the player & following the connection, was forced into Kris & it's implied they had some kind of deal.

It's still called Human SOUL

 

[Qurbonboev]

Btw, does anybody who posted new attempt at calcing Spamton Neo final explosion, which arrived at 8-A result?

 

[OrangeFR]

I think that's the point, the weird route requires the player to really try, going off the beaten path in chapter 2, ways to block your path in chapter 3, and like 6 moments in chapter 4 where you can lose your weird route (including not going fast enough), until when you put the ring on Noelle, there's no turning back... Since you have to try hard to get it, all the bad things that happen will be your fault and no one else's.

Sword route is the thing in the game files that relates to getting the shadow mantle which is what I was talking about, though it isn’t the weird route I could see Toby having a similar philosophy I guess (still doesn’t change the fact that it makes it needlessly inconvenient for the player tho).

 

[HASE-1929]

Sword route is the thing in the game files that relates to getting the shadow mantle which is what I was talking about, though it isn’t the weird route I could see Toby having a similar philosophy I guess (still doesn’t change the fact that it makes it needlessly inconvenient for the player tho).

To be fair, the sword route directly calls out the player for possibly doing Snowgrave, with you using a person in a cloak to freeze people to death, and it has parallels to Genocide, with the “main” character who is meant to represent the player.
becoming so strong that they break the game by reaching the max LV (like Frisk and Chara) at the cost of killing their friends, meaning it’s definitely made with that philosophy in mind.
(Though I do agree it's a bit unnecessary for something that doesn't have to be done in the weird route)

 

[LittleGuy99]

Apologies, but the reason I asked is "Deep cuts?" is because I am confused & uncertain & stuff about what damages are being referred to as "deep cuts".

I'm guessing that refers to the attacks with the Black Shard, Kris's sword, and Susie's axe, but I already removed the "Deep" part anyway

Isn't the Titan's size notoriously inconsistent?

Otherwise, I'd call it a Possibly or Likely Pocket Reality Manipulation, since although they went into The Titan, not much other than the background & the Titan's supposedly inconsistent scale indicates they've gone to a different reality, as i understand it.

For now I'll leave it at "Possibly"

I'd assume some take issue with scaling a secret boss to its own chapter's boss.
Besides that, he cracks the shield.
& Dual Busters are done not only in conjunction with Susie, but with the SOUL shining on Susie & The Old Man. Usually, the SOUL shines its power, so he & Susie are presumably getting a boost they normally don't get, as with Red Buster vs King & Queen.
Heck, there's the point about The Roaring Knight summoning The Titan then never being seen again, so either The Roaring Knight had something important to do, or it didn't want to fight it. Comparable? Superior?

I think the Knight is superior to Gerson and the Titan, and it also has a sword that would destroy the Titan with a few hits (if it weren't for regeneration)
I'm guessing you want me to remove the Gerson part since the Titan is physically inferior, especially with Dual Buster, right?
Then I think I agree

I would say "onto" or "into" "its multiple eyes", but okay. Thank you very much for the clarification.

Updated

Currently, it is written:
"Social Influencing (Instigating Fear - Terrified the Delta Warriors to a point they had to gather COURAGE to gain TP [Tension Points]"
If you want, maybe change it to something that mentions the darkness constricting part, like "Terrified the Delta Warriors to a point they had to gather COURAGE to gain TP [Tension Points], which was impeded by the constriction of darkness." or something? Does that read good?

Updated

This sounds plausible.

Added (We almost live in a world where Ralsei has better regeneration than the Titan, although it can still be argued)

This notion intrigues me.

I can't find a good video where the dialogues appear, but I saw them in my playthrough
The dialogues are on the wiki tho (No hit - Pippins and Shadow Guys)
And how can we forget the special dialogue when you no-hit the Knight (Wiki)

 

[LittleGuy99]

Good video

 

[rpmblack]

Should using darkness classify as a form of subjective reality, and can light be a form of resistance to SR or na?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Should using darkness classify as a form of subjective reality, and can light be a form of resistance to SR or na?

How so?

 

[rpmblack]

How so?

The dark worlds are specifically used to make area less real and illusionary with darkners now being capable of creating through memories, and the roaring causes reality to be completely enveloped in darkness to the point where nearly nothing else can exist besides lightners. With light being the counter to darkness here ofc.

 

[rpmblack]

There's also something there about the player likely being in the real world and the soul is connected to the player. It is just mostly speculation though.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Summarising my thoughts on Titan, Titanspawns, Darkness, TP abd fearhax:
TP gain is restricted by darkness in battles with Titan, spawns, Jackenstein and HoJ. In two last cases it was due to place of the fight being dark. But in two first cases, fight were in pretty bright places. So darkness was "summoned" by them, which is expected given their close affinity to darkness.
In fight with Titan and Spawns you need to gather Courage to gain TP. Titan is called fear of the dark. Titan spawns are called shards of fear.
In fight with Spawns we have such lines:
"You hear your heart beating in your ears."
"Ralsei mutters to himself to stay calm."
"Smells like adrenaline."
Indicating some level of fear.
So there are my 2 proposals:
1. Both titan and titanspawns have supernatural fearhax, due to their supernatural nature(darkness personified), and being called fear itself.
2. (More speculative, and probably wouldn't get through): Titan has layered fearhax. Titanspawn fearhax didn't do anything significant to Gang members mind. But Titan did(at the very least at the start, when Susie was shaking from it). Consequently Fun Gang(and Gerson) would get layered fearhax resistance

 

[Imaginym]

Can you elaborate this point?

During the pre-Castle Town chase scene, & the King cutscene, the spades they attack with go through Kris's body, nor do they act as walls when movement is possible; They can be moved into & through, hitstun aside.

Idk, I prefer Kris having NPI over their chest literally being intangible

& yet the SOUL has tons of feats against it being non-physical, & we don't know the rules, & it hasn't been able to re-enter parts of Kris's body except through Kris's chest that we've seen.
I think it's weird, but it seems to be what the info aligns to.

It's still called Human SOUL

When is the SOUL in Kris identified as such?
Closest I can recall is Kris's narration indicating the pillows are the same shape as a human SOUL, but we don't know if this is Kris's own SOUL, considering it represents the player who "connected" to the SURVEY PROGRAM somehow, & we have indications that they go prolonged periods of time (Between Chapter 2 & 3 on the Weird Route, & all the time at night until someone contacts them in the post-Ch4 cutscene, during which the SOUL is in the bird cage.) without the SOUL in them.

The case may be different when a SOUL does not belong to the being it is in, & we have a lot of reason to believe it isn't Kris's own.
Not to mention the prank being framed as pulling an organ out, & Noelle believing that's what it is. If humans can pull out their own SOULs, why would Kris know how to do that, when they seem averse to learning about humans, & why wouldn't anyone, including learned people like, Noelle, know about it?

 

[Imaginym]

Summarising my thoughts on Titan, Titanspawns, Darkness, TP abd fearhax:
TP gain is restricted by darkness in battles with Titan, spawns, Jackenstein and HoJ. In two last cases it was due to place of the fight being dark. But in two first cases, fight were in pretty bright places. So darkness was "summoned" by them, which is expected given their close affinity to darkness.
In fight with Titan and Spawns you need to gather Courage to gain TP. Titan is called fear of the dark. Titan spawns are called shards of fear.
In fight with Spawns we have such lines:
"You hear your heart beating in your ears."
"Ralsei mutters to himself to stay calm."
"Smells like adrenaline."
Indicating some level of fear.
So there are my 2 proposals:
1. Both titan and titanspawns have supernatural fearhax, due to their supernatural nature(darkness personified), and being called fear itself.
2. (More speculative, and probably wouldn't get through): Titan has layered fearhax. Titanspawn fearhax didn't do anything significant to Gang members mind. But Titan did(at the very least at the start, when Susie was shaking from it). Consequently Fun Gang(and Gerson) would get layered fearhax resistance

Which places were bright? The Titan had darkness smoke all the way up to the book shelves, & similar was happening with the Spawns. Jackenstein's was in a "Dark Zoan". HoJ did have lightning, though?

Anyway, for the fear hax, I'd say for now, it's a bit uncertain, IMHO.
I'd call Option 1 a Possibly or Likely, but would support it in that manner.

 

[Qurbonboev]

During the pre-Castle Town chase scene, & the King cutscene, the spades they attack with go through Kris's body, nor do they act as walls when movement is possible; They can be moved into & through, hitstun aside.

IIRC natural hazards attacks(shadow dancers in chp1, electricity in chp2) go through Kris body, and attack SOUL directly. I think that it's just Jackenstein ability to create magical walls, that can stop SOUL(Sans can do this too).

& yet the SOUL has tons of feats against it being non-physical, & we don't know the rules, & it hasn't been able to re-enter parts of Kris's body except through Kris's chest that we've seen.

As I have said, I think SOUL have physical shell outside of Kris in LW, but is intangible inside Kris. Yes, we don't know the rules, but it's the best assumption we have.

When is the SOUL in Kris identified as such?

"LV1 human. Body contains a human SOUL"
"The first hero. The cage, with Human SOUL and parts"

Which places were bright? The Titan had darkness smoke all the way up to the book shelves, & similar was happening with the Spawns. Jackenstein's was in a "Dark Zoan". HoJ did have lightning, though?

HoJ, and Jackenstein fights were in almost total darkness. Fights with Spawns and Titan were relatively bright (ingame).

Btw, you had a theory that during fight with Titan, Fun Gang was unusually amped by SOUL, indicating by it being more bright. Did you change your opinion or get new arguments for it?

 

[Imaginym]

IIRC natural hazards attacks(shadow dancers in chp1, electricity in chp2) go through Kris body, and attack SOUL directly. I think that it's just Jackenstein ability to create magical walls, that can stop SOUL(Sans can do this too).

The point was from this earlier:
"Lancer & King's projectiles go through characters outside of battle, too, though. If the argument is its "intangible during battle", why are overworld projectiles going through it? The waves on the roof of Queen's Mansion, the falling stars for the overworld quizzes in late Chapter 3...."

The notion of the SOUL being intangible (In battle or not.) seems contradicted by projectiles also going through Kris's body; Is Kris's body intangible too because out-of-battle hazards pass through it without effect?

As I have said, I think SOUL have physical shell outside of Kris in LW, but is intangible inside Kris. Yes, we don't know the rules, but it's the best assumption we have.

My presumption, on the contrary, is that the SOUL can only be moved intangibly for certain movements &/or into certain positions (At least in the LW.), based on it being unable to re-enter Kris's body when they hold it out & away from them, it always being re-inserted & removed via the chest, & multiple instances of its supposed Intangibility seemingly only letting it get to a battle (Susie vs Lancer, SoJ.). It does technically leave Kris for Susie vs HoJ, but Kris was in the same room; If it can leave Kris's chest as though that area is intangible to it, there'd be no obstacles.

To me, the notion of a "physical shell" exclusively present in the Light World for the SOUL seems unfounded, unlike with the chest being the intangible point, which, IMHO, seems supported by animation details.

I fear we may be at an impasse regarding this matter. Perhaps there isn't enough info?

"LV1 human. Body contains a human SOUL"
"The first hero. The cage, with Human SOUL and parts"

Thank you for the clarifications.

HoJ, and Jackenstein fights were in almost total darkness. Fights with Spawns and Titan were relatively bright (ingame).

There was much more darkness versus Jackenstein (Couldn't see any part of body except eyes.) compared to Hammer of Justice, which has at at least one point, a night sky illuminating things, & unlike Jackenstein, it isn't considered too dark to aim. Heck, as soon as the battle starts, there's a part of the floor clearly illuminated from the window's light. FWIW, especially during HoJ's turns, the light level does darken, & it does change as the battle progresses, but there's no mention of darkness constricting, the TP Bar doesn't change colour, & it isn't as close to as dark as Jackenstein nor SoJ.

Btw, you had a theory that during fight with Titan, Fun Gang was unusually amped by SOUL, indicating by it being more bright. Did you change your opinion or get new arguments for it?

I'm not sure I recall taking such a position. Such a position seems PARTIALLY plausible, but I'm confused what you're referring to, I'm sorry to say.
By "it being more bright", do you mean the environment???

& I wouldn't call it quite "unusual".
The SOUL has powered up the Delta Warriors in other boss battles, like King & Queen. As before, it's indicated by the SFX, dialogue, & animations:

Spoiler: Video of a battle against The Titan

Dual Heal against The Titan, as before, shows the SOUL shining its power on the healers. We see it glow (as well as the participating characters glowing.) & the SOUL becomes visible while in Kris at this time.
Notably, Dual Heal's effectiveness lowers after each use, further affirmed by the text about that. This drawback is odd because DualHeal didn't have it previously, & Susie is supposed to have gotten better at healing. Either it's a game mechanic for balancing purposes, or it's a product of Darkness, the ostensible antithesis of LIGHT, constricting not just TP, but apparently how effectively the SOUL's power can power up healing.
(Or it's some kind of unconfirmed forshadowing of Susie diverging from Ralsei's healing that is, according to Heal Prayer's description, based on "Heavenly light".)

This weakening only seems to occur for healing, but not for DualBuster, which seemingly doesn't involve LIGHT; You can see DualBuster at 6:12 in that video.
"Your soul is shining... a new ACT appeared!" Select DualBuster. "Your SOUL shone on the Old Man and Susie!"
The SOUL shines on the Old Man & Susie, & Heal Prayer's "Heavenly Light" is uninvolved in Dual Buster. ....Is the SOUL's power not LIGHT?

Strangely, unlike the healing move DualHeal, where the SOUL does shine its power, the DualBuster attacking move does NOT mention power. Perhaps Toby was just negligent/forgetful/complacent?
After all, power is VERY often associated with the SOUL in Deltarune.

SAVE point

A SAVE point is a place where the player can SAVE game progress in Deltarune. Interacting with a SAVE point usually expresses Kris's current thoughts, often accompanied by being "filled with power", and, in the Dark World, fully restores the party's HP. Kris is the only one who can see SAVE points,

deltarune.wiki

0 mentions of Determination in the SAVE Point text, around 50 mentions of power.
& against King & Queen, it is through the SOUL shining onto characters that TALK becomes the Defense-boosting Courage, or the powerful RedBuster.

• Your SOUL shined its power on Susie/RALSEI! [RedBuster/DualHeal]

Toby, why is Ralsei's name capitalized but not Susie's for this? Is it to make him seem more artificial since he's a Darkner & thus, less "real"?


On a previous note, I recommend checking how the Titan looks at 4:56 in the above video for a possible visual that could be a basis for damage it regenerates from being called "deep cuts".
This GIF from the Deltarune Wiki may also be relevant on that note:

Spoiler: Kind of big resolution GIF

Though it may be arguable that it's just its form of semi-amorphous darkness warping/distorting/reshaping.

Sorry if I went kind of overboard. Hope this helps. Or was at least interesting!

 

[EnderLord8]

DETERMINATION VS L.O.V.E. which of the two is more powerful independently?

 

[Qurbonboev]

The notion of the SOUL being intangible (In battle or not.) seems contradicted by projectiles also going through Kris's body; Is Kris's body intangible too because out-of-battle hazards pass through it without effect?

My point was to highlight difference between Kris body(physical) and SOUL(probably non-physical, in DW at least). Magical attacks can go through physical body and strike Soul directly. Jackenstein walls and Spamton Neo green hands are impossible for Soul to go through. I see it as evidence of their ability to construct magical danmaku that is tangible for SOUL.
Main argument for SOUL being intangible in DW is it going through cell in vs Lancer(something that Toby himself highlighted), and it going through maze in vs HoJ.

I fear we may be at an impasse regarding this matter. Perhaps there isn't enough info?

Prolly yes(for LW).

There was much more darkness versus Jackenstein (Couldn't see any part of body except eyes.) compared to Hammer of Justice

My bad, wanted to say "Titan and spawns fights were bright compared to SoJ and Jackenstein, yet darkness effect was present in all four".

I'm not sure I recall taking a position.

Maybe I misinterpreted your position, from this except:
"The point is, the SOUL is working much harder against The Titan. It's shining light constantly, which it only ever does in deep darkness, & has multiple techniques, including DualBuster where it shines its power on party members."

we have indications that they go prolonged periods of time (Between Chapter 2 & 3 on the Weird Route, & all the time at night until someone contacts them in the post-Ch4 cutscene, during which the SOUL is in the bird cage.) without the SOUL in them.

Doesn't tell that much. Flowey was fine with only Determination and body. Chara too exists without problems, with just determination.

If humans can pull out their own SOULs, why would Kris know how to do that, when they seem averse to learning about humans, & why wouldn't anyone, including learned people like, Noelle, know about it

Kris is averse to learning about humans now, but I don't think situation always was like this. Kris, Noelle and Susie seems to be fans of horror movies. Susie prefers movies with giant monsters over movies with giant humans. If pulling out SOUL is something that humans can do, it's def is shown in many horror movies. And I don't think Toby put this as just red herring.

Sorry if I went kind of overboard. Hope this helps. Or was at least interesting!

Nah, it's good. Love long responses.

DETERMINATION VS L.O.V.E. which of the two is more powerful independently?

L.O.V.E is unironically pretty weak. Max stats you can get with it is LV20 stats, 99HP, 38 ATK, 4 DEF. You don't need HP if you can just refuse death, you don't need ATK, if you can just erase the world. Comparing defense boost is obviously laughable.

 

[HASE-1929]

L.O.V.E is unironically pretty weak. Max stats you can get with it is LV20 stats, 99HP, 38 ATK, 4 DEF. You don't need HP if you can just refuse death, you don't need ATK, if you can just erase the world. Comparing defense boost is obviously laughable.

L.O.V.E my favorite DT merchant

 

[StrymULTRA]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/undertale-the-series-of-big-revisions-part-1.184779

IT'S! C.R.T. TIME!

 

[Imaginym]

Maybe I misinterpreted your position, from this except:
"The point is, the SOUL is working much harder against The Titan. It's shining light constantly, which it only ever does in deep darkness, & has multiple techniques, including DualBuster where it shines its power on party members."

Ah yes.
I would say that kind of is true. It has to emit light to destroy the Titan's danmaku to collect courage, it has an ACT to shine brighter, it shines its power onto Ralsei & Susie for them to use DualHeal, & it shines onto the Old Man & Susie for them to use DualBuster.

& we usually don't see it emitting light except in deep darkness, or when it's not in Kris's body.

Kris is averse to learning about humans now, but I don't think situation always was like this. Kris, Noelle and Susie seems to be fans of horror movies. Susie prefers movies with giant monsters over movies with giant humans. If pulling out SOUL is something that humans can do, it's def is shown in many horror movies. And I don't think Toby put this as just red herring.

In a vaccuum, Kris being able to pull the SOUL out (Especially when it's likely not theirs.) doesn't necessarily mean it's a human one.
We don't have any proof they've seen movies where humans pull their SOUL out. It's speculatory.

Nah, it's good. Love long responses.

Thanks.

 

[LittleGuy99]

Epic

 

[LittleGuy99]

Undertale: The Continuation of a series of big revisions (Part 2/?)

Hello guys. We are here again, this time it's my turn to make a very important UT CRT. So, as most of you know, @TheOrangeGuy09 made a UT CRT almost 11 months ago but it didn't get approved yet so now I am here to add some stuff from his CRT and also add 1 or 2 new things. Stamina Revisions...

vsbattles.com

 

[RinneItachi]

Guys I had a dream where Toby updated Undertale with the areas shown in the 10th anniversary live stream and there's a whole sub-story where Frisk goes to the version of the Holiday mansion in the Underground after becoming friends with Noelle, and Dess is there or something idk I forgor. Why can't dreams be real?

 

[Qurbonboev]

FTL DELTARUNE IS REAL!!! FTL DELTARUNE IS REAL!!!(if calcs get accepted in CRT)

Deltarune speed feats

vsbattles.fandom.com

Deltarune: Shocking Laser Dodge

vsbattles.fandom.com