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Downgrading Lord of Mysteries

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LOTM_Historian said:
Huh? 😭 What is this headcanon?

This has never been a thing, do u have scans for it being “lower dimensional” or something compared to the astral world?
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I mean first of all, these realms are called “higher dimensions” but that’s not what was implied in my post. A proper class-sized construct is beyond all possible space-time but it can still contain those space-times. In the same manner, a realm of universals can still contain all possible sub-realms of the particulars they ground. So there’s no inherent need to assert an ontological shift for Morora.
 
Super_Nova said:
I mean first of all, these realms are called “higher dimensions” but that’s not what was implied in my post. A proper class-sized construct is beyond all possible space-time but it can still contain those space-times. In the same manner, a realm of universals can still contain all possible sub-realms of the particulars they ground.
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The problem is that your own scan literally says Morora was inside Heraberg and gave him a stomachache when Lumian summoned the meteor. 😭 Space doesn’t even exist in the astral world, so neither Heraberg nor his stomach can be considered “physical.”
 
LOTM_Historian said:
The problem is that your own scan literally says Morora was inside Heraberg and gave him a stomachache when Lumian summoned the meteor. 😭 Space doesn’t even exist in the astral world, so neither Heraberg nor his stomach can be considered “physical.”
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I’m not saying it’s literally in the Astral World, I’m saying it can exist a sub-dimension or sub-reality within it which doesn’t contradict anything.

A Low 1-A realm still transcends Space but it can contain Spatial realms within itself.
 
Super_Nova said:
I’m not saying it’s literally in the Astral World, I’m saying it can exist a sub-dimension or sub-reality within it which doesn’t contradict anything.

A Low 1-A realm still transcends Space but it can contain Spatial realms within itself.
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You are contradicting your own scans. Morora is stated to be in the astral world, in heraberg, who is also in the astral world.

The astral world doesn’t even have real space. Again, the author explicitly stated that it only has conceptual space, meaning everything within the astral world is also conceptual.
 
 
Super_Nova said:
The point is that my interpretation shows no metaphysical problems and is completely valid itself whereas yours assumes extra assumptions of Morora’s ontological change which are unfounded.
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So let me get this straight. Your own scan literally says that Morora is in the astral world, yet you’re arguing it actually isn’t. This doesn’t make sense, especially since Heraberg, as a Sequence 0 orthodox god, is also within the astral world, and Morora is said to be within Hera too.

Secondly, the astral world has been repeatedly described as purely conceptual and symbolic. The author even explicitly states that space doesn’t exist there, only the concepts and symbolism of space.

Yet you’re ignoring all of that saying and claiming that I’m the one making unfounded assumptions? 🤨

You are the one making up headcanons right now my guy…
 
LOTM_Historian said:
So let me get this straight. Your own scan literally says that Morora is in the astral world, yet you’re arguing it actually isn’t. This doesn’t make sense, especially since Heraberg, as a Sequence 0 orthodox god, is also within the astral world, and Morora is said to be within Hera too.

Secondly, the astral world has been repeatedly described as purely conceptual and symbolic. The author even explicitly states that space doesn’t exist there, only the concepts and symbolism of space.

Yet you’re ignoring all of that saying and claiming that I’m the one making unfounded assumptions? 🤨

You are the one making up headcanons right now my guy…
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Again, never in the 40ish chapters that we have seen Morora has an ontological change even ever been hinted at. And almost every time any other thing enters it, it’s always described as composed of concepts, symbols, representations etc.

Morora has never been implied to be anything but physical and
 
It'd be better to choose an example other than Morora (or Klein's Grafting, since that was also used on a Divine Kingdom, and is also the use of an Authority that alters logic, and is also an Authority so it's hax would work on the Astral World and would scale to it) if need be, the prisoners were taken directly to the God of Knowledge & Wisdom's Divine Kingdom (since he himself is inside it), and we already know that matter can exist in the Astral World inside of a Divine Kingdom. We don't know the White Tower's pathway details yet, it'd take a few months before it is revealed and can be fully understood, but this still shouldn't be an anti-feat, a Divine Kingdom is the embodiment of a Sequence 0's concepts (their Authorities) & would also scale to the Astral World which is Authorities incarnate.

If there is an ontological change, there would be no reason to inform the reader, that would just ruin the mystery & wouldn't fit in the plot at the time where we (reader & characters) were questioning where the City of Exiles was. The characters not feeling anything themselves isn't an anti-feat, is it? Since they were sealed, influenced into wanting to stay by the Uniqueness & them not feeling a change is not disproving anything in the first place.
Later on, after the reveal, there was a mention of it being unreachable when in reality but that's it, there wasn't much interaction with Morora later on.
I agreed because of the Symbolisms affecting each other (& since you guys mentioned in another thread that everything relied on the Symbolism of Reality as a foundation which would include the Astral World and hence all the other Symbolism & Authorities), since that contradicts the platonic concept scaling, but now I'm confused if there was scaling fully relying on following platonic concepts. There wasn't really a name drop before so I'm kinda confused, I'll still agree if that's the case though.
 
Exoko said:
I agreed because of the Symbolisms affecting each other (& since you guys mentioned in another thread that everything relied on the Symbolism of Reality as a foundation which would include the Astral World and hence all the other Symbolism & Authorities),
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Everything relies on symbolism in totality not just the symbolism of reality. The astral world depends on its own symbolism.

Also, the author explains that all concepts in reality are merely lesser reflections of greater, higher concepts that exist in the astral world. Those higher concepts hold true importance. Even if every concept within reality were erased, the concept itself would still exist unless its higher counterpart in the astral world were destroyed.
 
There’s no issue with symbolism affecting each other. It’s just that Astral World shows too much connection to places which are effectively non-existent to it.
 
LOTM_Historian said:
The two examples you brought up are legit within the astral world.
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His issues were that a non-1A thing (taken from the Material World) that experienced no ontological change was in the Astral World, meaning it cannot be a 1A realm since a 1A realm can not have non-1A things in it.
Since Morora was still physical he was saying it was a sub-space (that is isolated from the Astral World's effects) since otherwise it would noticeably have a conceptual form or something implying a conceptual change, which isn't really wrong since it's inside a Divine Kingdom but the concepts can also manifest something that is physical, like the Tyrant's sea & matter.
But then this Morora is also connected to the Material World by a door, which leads to the oesophagus of the God of Knowledge & Wisdom, so it's now a sub-space connected to a non-1A realm.
That's what I understood from it.

Also I disagree with this for reasons I mentioned in the message before & disagree overall if Symbolism interacting with each other aren't an issue.
 
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Might as well bump. If mods checking this somehow don’t think whatever I’ve laid out is a problem then I guess everyone in LOTM can be 1-A lelel. OC will have to be upgraded to 1 layer in that case since r>f btw.
 
Exoko said:
It'd be better to use another example, like distorting surrounding authorities, concepts & symbolism done by the Celestial Thearch.
I do remember that this wasn't in the Astral World,
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I literally have the scan of CF saying that concepts in reality are reflections of the ones in AW in the OP… (which is something you can interpret from the text as well btw)
 
Oh
I forgot (i didn't know what it meant)
So that isn't a debunk for it either
 
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Bro I’m literally gonna die before these CRTs are done. Klein’s been literally rotting in my sandbox for months now 🥀
 
So eh......i was asked to vote here, can both sides summerise the arguments?, i will come back later to evaluate them, it is midnight in my country
 
Vietthai96 said:
So eh......i was asked to vote here, can both sides summerise the arguments?, i will come back later to evaluate them, it is midnight in my country
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The Astral World (world of concepts) qualifies for 1-A (the concepts are already accepted in another crt as such) aside from the fact that characters can make non-conceptual realms (places of the physical world like mountains) exist as sort of sub-dimensions within the Astral World without an indication of qualitative change. I am saying that this is an anti-feat and thus it should go to Low 1-A.

The opposition claims that since the realms are technically connected by characters who already have access to the Astral World, it should’t be an anti-feat.

The last part is establishing R>F for the Godhead of the verse. But there has been no contention here from anyone.
 
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Vietthai96 said:
So eh......i was asked to vote here, can both sides summerise the arguments?, i will come back later to evaluate them, it is midnight in my country
Click to expand...


There is no sub-dimension, the city was said to be in the 'stomach' of the God of Knowledge & Wisdom, who was said to have this size.
He in turn is inside his own Divine Kingdom, a Divine Kingdom is a domain that is a manifestation of the Authorities of a True God, while the Astral World itself is made up of those same Authorities.
Divine Kingdoms have already shown the ability to have things that look like matter & physical objects.

The mountains and the city served as a seal for a Uniqueness (not many details needed for this, think of it as a dangerous object), both the mountains and the city were never said to exist in reality, it was constructed to act as a seal for this object by the God of Knowledge & Wisdom, with the residents of this city being criminals caught and sentenced by the Church of the God of Knowledge & Wisdom.

From all of that, there shouldn't be an issue with the City of Exiles Morora being seen as physical.

The issue super_nova has would be that when prisoners are taken to Morora there is no narrated ontological change for them, and the way for them to ascend is by walking through the oesophagus of the God of Knowledge & Wisdom, which is connected to reality by a door.
However, a 'door' in this verse works very differently than a normal door, we've already seen doors that connect to the Astral World or prevent access to it, so another door doing this shouldn't be an issue.
For the characters not having a narrated change, it was for the plot, the location of Morora was kept a secret back when the prisoners were transported to it, later on when the secret was revealed all we learnt was this, And later there was no more entering & exiting Morora.
 
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You could say that they were unknowingly turned into symbolisms, but I couldn’t remember if you had to turn into a symbol to interact with a symbol (the oesophagus of the God of Knowledge & Wisdom & stomach aren’t physical themselves), then someone asked CF which confirmed that they did change into symbols and only perceived everything as physical (so I can push this too ig) but it would be better to wait for the White Tower pathway reveal for a better answer on ‘how’ he did it (maybe an expansion on Astral Passages/Tunnels).
 
Im down for 1-A then. But only GOOs will get to keep a meaningful 1-A rating because unlike them, other characters are only 1-A through mechanics of the Astral World and they aren’t even capable of affecting the universals there sooo
 
Super_Nova said:
Im down for 1-A then. But only GOOs will get to keep a meaningful 1-A rating because unlike them, other characters are only 1-A through mechanics of the Astral World and they aren’t even capable of affecting the universals there sooo
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That includes Klein, the rest can rot.
 
Exoko said:
That includes Klein, the rest can rot.
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Would VS threads even be possible lol. I don’t see how you can make a matchup with LOTM characters now without one side being a complete stomp. Cuz like even MCF is 1-A smurf now lmao
 
Robo432343 said:
klein vs kim dokja 🔥
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OD is the godhead with like acausality 5, nonduality all that jazz. Same goes for most 1-A characters cuz they’re all generally godheads so they’re stacked.

LOTM characters on that end are just balanced lol. So they stomp all below 1-A but get stomped by everyone else.

And if we bring OC into the mix then it’s a stomp for him because sleeping OC is quite literally reached by OC self-terminating so he R>Fs mid fight. Uh, unless there’s some rule about this of course.
 
Exoko said:
There is no sub-dimension, the city was said to be in the 'stomach' of the God of Knowledge & Wisdom, who was said to have this size.
He in turn is inside his own Divine Kingdom, a Divine Kingdom is a domain that is a manifestation of the Authorities of a True God, while the Astral World itself is made up of those same Authorities.
Divine Kingdoms have already shown the ability to have things that look like matter & physical objects.

The mountains and the city served as a seal for a Uniqueness (not many details needed for this, think of it as a dangerous object), both the mountains and the city were never said to exist in reality, it was constructed to act as a seal for this object by the God of Knowledge & Wisdom, with the residents of this city being criminals caught and sentenced by the Church of the God of Knowledge & Wisdom.

From all of that, there shouldn't be an issue with the City of Exiles Morora being seen as physical.

The issue super_nova has would be that when prisoners are taken to Morora there is no narrated ontological change for them, and the way for them to ascend is by walking through the oesophagus of the God of Knowledge & Wisdom, which is connected to reality by a door.
However, a 'door' in this verse works very differently than a normal door, we've already seen doors that connect to the Astral World or prevent access to it, so another door doing this shouldn't be an issue.
For the characters not having a narrated change, it was for the plot, the location of Morora was kept a secret back when the prisoners were transported to it, later on when the secret was revealed all we learnt was this, And later there was no more entering & exiting Morora.
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Having no narrated changes is indeed an anti-feat. Unless you have proof that walking through those doors make those prisoners ascend to 1-A level
 
Super_Nova said:
Not sure tbh.

It kinda sounds like one but the author does a lot of Q&As every week regarding the power system and lore so there’s a bunch of stuff like this.
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Well, shit, since it is somewhat kind of a leading question but can't be proved, i can only go with the route Low 1-A, possibly/likely 1-A due to WoG. Unless someone can clarify this Q&A
 
Vietthai96 said:
Well, shit, since it is somewhat kind of a leading question but can't be proved, i can only go with the route Low 1-A, possibly/likely 1-A due to WoG. Unless someone can clarify this Q&A
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I’ll wait for other mods to chime in with their opinions because the only reason it’s not 1-A kind of is only cuz of this single thing.

And I’ll be honest, it is kinda hammered down that you do need to become a conceptual form in order to enter the astral world, so it would seem a bit odd for the author to not intend the same for Morora.

This question moreso is for clarification, (which the author seems to give), but, still, I’ll wait for other mods. Personally I don’t mind either 1-A or Low 1-A anyhow.

(Also, a better translation seems warranted for that scan as well)
 
Vietthai96 said:
Well, shit, since it is somewhat kind of a leading question but can't be proved, i can only go with the route Low 1-A, possibly/likely 1-A due to WoG. Unless someone can clarify this Q&A
Click to expand...
The astral world has been repeatedly described as purely conceptual and symbolic. The author even explicitly states that space doesn’t exist there, only the concepts and symbolism of space. So it doesn't really make sense that something that is in the astral world isn't also conceptual.
 
Hmm, Astral World is 1-A is fine, but Morora?, i don't think so, unless the Q&A stuff is legit
 
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