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A Song of Ice and Fire: Attack Potency upgrade CRT

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Shagga
(Note: he currently has no profile, but his feats would be relevant for the entire verse.)

According to the References for Common Feats, to destroy a blade:

• Longsword = 2.177968 × 10⁴ Joules (Wall level)
• Shortsword = 4.172064 × 10⁴ Joules (Wall level)

This feat is a Wall-level feat. Shagga presses a sword against his knee with his bare hands and snaps it in half effortlessly. It’s also reasonable to say that his durability would scale to his AP. Newton’s Third Law is exactly why this works. Any force Shagga applies to the sword is met with an equal and opposite force on his body. Since he handles that force without injury. On top of that, because the force is applied across a broad area of his knee.

(I could also calculate Shagga’s lifting strength using the basic work-energy principle)

Shagga also has another Wall-level feat where he fragments a wooden door with a single kick. Two years ago, someone argued that this feat couldn’t have fragmented the door because “it took multiple hits to fully demolish it.” Revisiting this, the numbers and the scene show that this argument doesn’t hold. The kick alone is sufficient to cause violent fragmentation. I will go through everything in detail, and you can tell me whether it is valid or not.

Again, this is all based on the Reference for common Feats.

The door is described as thin, which directly affects how much energy is needed to break it. In the calculation, a standard thickness of 3.334 cm was used, which does not match to the door that Shagga destroyed. But even if we reduce its thickness to 25 mm or 32 mm, the energy required to fragment it is still Wall-Level:

• 25 mm → 387,849 J (Wall level)

• 32 mm → 497,332 J (Wall level)

Based on accepted material for wood (like shear strength), we can distinguish three types of breakage:

Fragmentation: The material splits into distinct pieces. For a wooden door, this requires ~516,644 J.

Violent fragmentation: Debris flies outward at high speed in small fragments. For wood, this is ~1,136,122 J. This is what we see in the feat. Pieces of the door fly inward after Shagga’s kick.

Pulverization: Crushing the material into nearly dust like particles. This requires much higher energy (~2,907,827 J) and clearly doesn’t happen in the scene.

Shagga’s single kick can deliver hundreds of kJ of energy, enough to reach the violent fragmentation threshold for a thin wooden door:

“The thin wooden door split with a thunderous crack beneath the heel of Shagga’s boot. Pieces went flying inward…”

The door splits and fragments immediately upon impact, with debris flying. Classic violent fragmentation. The fact that Shagga later uses his axe doesn’t negate that the kick alone caused significant fragmentation. Even accounting for reduced door thickness, the physics lines up. The kick provides sufficient energy for violent fragmentation, consistent with the scene description. Arguments that “it took multiple hits, so the kick can’t count” overlooks both the door’s thinness and the energy delivered by a single, forceful kick. The scene clearly shows Shagga kicked the door first, causing it to split and send pieces flying, and only after that did he hack it with three axe blows to fully clear the doorway, the kick alone already produced violent fragmentation.

Like I said, even reducing the door to 32 mm gives ~1.09 MJ, and 25 mm gives ~0.85 MJ. If we use the regular fragmentation, then like I mentioned above: 32mm gives 497,332 J, and 25mm gives 387,849 J.

Brienne

This calculation got accepted. The same feat that was recently used to upgrade Brienne of Tarth’s lifting strength (from class 1 to class 25) was also run through the Work formula (Force × Distance) to get an AP value. The result comes out to be 107 kJ, which lines up with 9-B. So her Attack Potency would go from At least Street level, at most Street+ to Wall-level.

As noted in the lifting-strength CRT, this would also upgrade other warriors, such as Jaime Lannister, due to him being able to trade blows with Brienne while weakened. I also suggest that, since Jaime now scales to Brienne’s 9-B feat, any knights or warriors who were previously considered Athlete level because they were weaker than Jaime be upgraded to Street level, reflecting the new scaling chain in the verse (see explanation)
 
The door feat sounds reasonable. The sword snapping had a possible concern. Depending on which angle the blade is on, snapping it can be easier or harder. Typically one would be snapping it on the flat, which would be easier. I can take a look at that calculation though to see which angle is used.
 
The door feat sounds reasonable. The sword snapping had a possible concern. Depending on which angle the blade is on, snapping it can be easier or harder. Typically one would be snapping it on the flat, which would be easier. I can take a look at that calculation though to see which angle is used.
Sorry forgot to respond. Yeah sounds good and you’re correct that the angle of the blade could make snapping it easier or harder, but for the purposes of this calculation it assume a general low-end break. As noted in the introduction: These calculations are typically low-ends or averages and may not be a one-size-fits-all due to outliers.
 
The previous thread has been applied and will be closed; now we can move on to this one.

Shagga
(Note: he currently has no profile, but his feats would be relevant for the entire verse.)

According to the References for Common Feats, to destroy a blade:

• Longsword = 2.177968 × 10⁴ Joules (Wall level)
• Shortsword = 4.172064 × 10⁴ Joules (Wall level)

This feat is a Wall-level feat. Shagga presses a sword against his knee with his bare hands and snaps it in half effortlessly. It’s also reasonable to say that his durability would scale to his AP. Newton’s Third Law is exactly why this works. Any force Shagga applies to the sword is met with an equal and opposite force on his body. Since he handles that force without injury. On top of that, because the force is applied across a broad area of his knee.

(I could also calculate Shagga’s lifting strength using the basic work-energy principle)

Shagga also has another Wall-level feat where he fragments a wooden door with a single kick. Two years ago, someone argued that this feat couldn’t have fragmented the door because “it took multiple hits to fully demolish it.” Revisiting this, the numbers and the scene show that this argument doesn’t hold. The kick alone is sufficient to cause violent fragmentation. I will go through everything in detail, and you can tell me whether it is valid or not.

Again, this is all based on the Reference for common Feats.

The door is described as thin, which directly affects how much energy is needed to break it. In the calculation, a standard thickness of 3.334 cm was used, which does not match to the door that Shagga destroyed. But even if we reduce its thickness to 25 mm or 32 mm, the energy required to fragment it is still Wall-Level:

• 25 mm → 387,849 J (Wall level)

• 32 mm → 497,332 J (Wall level)

Based on accepted material for wood (like shear strength), we can distinguish three types of breakage:

Fragmentation: The material splits into distinct pieces. For a wooden door, this requires ~516,644 J.

Violent fragmentation: Debris flies outward at high speed in small fragments. For wood, this is ~1,136,122 J. This is what we see in the feat. Pieces of the door fly inward after Shagga’s kick.

Pulverization: Crushing the material into nearly dust like particles. This requires much higher energy (~2,907,827 J) and clearly doesn’t happen in the scene.

Shagga’s single kick can deliver hundreds of kJ of energy, enough to reach the violent fragmentation threshold for a thin wooden door:


The door splits and fragments immediately upon impact, with debris flying. Classic violent fragmentation. The fact that Shagga later uses his axe doesn’t negate that the kick alone caused significant fragmentation. Even accounting for reduced door thickness, the physics lines up. The kick provides sufficient energy for violent fragmentation, consistent with the scene description. Arguments that “it took multiple hits, so the kick can’t count” overlooks both the door’s thinness and the energy delivered by a single, forceful kick. The scene clearly shows Shagga kicked the door first, causing it to split and send pieces flying, and only after that did he hack it with three axe blows to fully clear the doorway, the kick alone already produced violent fragmentation.

Like I said, even reducing the door to 32 mm gives ~1.09 MJ, and 25 mm gives ~0.85 MJ. If we use the regular fragmentation, then like I mentioned above: 32mm gives 497,332 J, and 25mm gives 387,849 J.
Create a blog with your calculations in it and send them to calc members so they can be accepted.

Brienne

This calculation got accepted. The same feat that was recently used to upgrade Brienne of Tarth’s lifting strength (from class 1 to class 25) was also run through the Work formula (Force × Distance) to get an AP value. The result comes out to be 107 kJ, which lines up with 9-B. So her Attack Potency would go from At least Street level, at most Street+ to Wall-level.

As noted in the lifting-strength CRT, this would also upgrade other warriors, such as Jaime Lannister, due to him being able to trade blows with Brienne while weakened. I also suggest that, since Jaime now scales to Brienne’s 9-B feat, any knights or warriors who were previously considered Athlete level because they were weaker than Jaime be upgraded to Street level, reflecting the new scaling chain in the verse (see explanation)
Brienne's calculation isn't entirely accurate because LegendariumOfLies falsely assumes that all cows in ASOIAF are aurochs, but that's not the case, as cows also exist in this version. This will only slightly change the calculation result, so he didn't want to redo it, but it should still be mentioned just in case.

Anyway, if the calculations you did with Shagga are accepted, it's better to use than Brienne's feat regarding AP, but the problem is that we can't scale any characters to Shagga, neither via feats nor via statements.

I think it would be better to close this thread and discuss it in the general discussion and wait to see if your calculations are accepted or not.
 
Create a blog with your calculations in it and send them to calc members so they can be accepted.
Alright, but Shagga snapping a blade in half is not my calculation, it’s based on the common feats. I mentioned that above. Those calculations are overall accepted, right?

The same goes for the door destroying calculation. I only used the common feats calcs. I didn’t make the calculation myself. The violent fragmentation value (~1.13 MJ) comes from white oak violent fragmentation energy density (18.34 J/cc) listed in the linked blog. The “Destroying a Door” calc multiplies that J/cc value by standard door volume (61,947.75 cc), resulting in 1,136,122 J. The blue link points to the material data. The common feats door destroying simply applies it. But yeah, I’ll make a blog if that’s what’s required.
but the problem is that we can't scale any characters to Shagga, neither via feats nor via statements.
Is there really no possibility for others to scale to Shagga at all? Logically, he should be comparable to someone like Sandor but still downscale from Gregor. Are feats absolutely required for that? Or is a good explaination also valid? For example, Duncan at 16 who was 6’11 tall in THK, is very strong (based on his build & for his age) and it took 5+ guards in full armor to overpower him.. one even on his back, and two others grappled him by each arm. Yet they still struggled. Based on statements and feats, Jaime is somehow still considered stronger than Duncan here in VSBW (which I do not agree with). I could make a good overall explanation. Tell me what you think. Didn’t you also mention something similar to this a long time ago?
 
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Alright, but Shagga snapping a blade in half is not my calculation, it’s based on the common feats. I mentioned that above. Those calculations are overall accepted, right?

The same goes for the door destroying calculation. I only used the common feats calcs. I didn’t make the calculation myself. The violent fragmentation value (~1.13 MJ) comes from white oak violent fragmentation energy density (18.34 J/cc) listed in the linked blog. The “Destroying a Door” calc multiplies that J/cc value by standard door volume (61,947.75 cc), resulting in 1,136,122 J. The blue link points to the material data. The common feats door destroying simply applies it. But yeah, I’ll make a blog if that’s what’s required.
We should at least discuss this with one or two Calc members.

Is there really no possibility for others to scale to Shagga at all? Logically, he should be comparable to someone like Sandor but still downscale from Gregor. Are feats absolutely required for that? Or is a good explaination also valid?
Without feats and statements, we can only make assumptions.

For example, Duncan at 16 who was 6’11 tall in THK, is very strong (based on his build & for his age) and it took 5+ guards in full armor to overpower him.. one even on his back, and two others grappled him by each arm. Yet they still struggled. Based on statements and feats, Jaime is somehow still considered stronger than Duncan here in VSBW. I could make a good overall explanation. Tell me what you think. Didn’t you also mention something similar to this a long time ago?
There's no way to say that Jaime is stronger than Duncan either via Jaime's statement. Jaime's statement can't apply to Duncan because he never knew him; Duncan died before he was born.
 
Without feats and statements, we can only make assumptions.
Not full assumptions, because that wouldn’t be valid. I can use statements from GRRM himself, and there is one.
There's no way to say that Jaime is stronger than Duncan either. Jaime's famous statement can't apply to Duncan because he never knew him; Duncan died before he was born.
But he is still considered physically to be a 10-A here. My point is, let’s just assume that Shagga’s calc is accepted and that he eventually gets his profile. That would make him, according to VSBW, stronger than someone like Gregor, who is literally almost 8 feet tall and it’s heavily implied that he’s pretty much the strongest human in this verse.
 
Not full assumptions, because that wouldn’t be valid. I can use statements from GRRM himself, and there is one.
A statement that scales certain characters to Shagga?

But he is still considered physically to be a 10-A here. My point is, let’s just assume that Shagga’s calc is accepted and that he eventually gets his profile. That would make him, according to VSBW, stronger than someone like Gregor, who is literally almost 8 feet tall and it’s heavily implied that he’s pretty much the strongest human in this verse.
To my knowledge, there are no statements claiming that Gregor Clegane is the strongest character in the entire continent or the entire world. Gregor Clegane is stronger than most warriors in Westeros, yes, of course, but there's no way to say he's stronger than Shagga without making an assumption. At best, we could only give him a "possibly" scaling.
 
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A statement that scales certain characters to Shagga?


To my knowledge, there are no statements claiming that Gregor Clegane is the strongest character in the entire continent or the entire world. Gregor Clegane is stronger than most warriors in Westeros, yes, of course, but there's no way to say he's stronger than Shagga without making an assumption. At best, we could only give him a "possibly" scaling.
Based on GRRM and his commentary, it makes sense to say that in Westeros, physical strength is closely tied to size, height and weight. Skill and training matter, but GRRM often shows that bigger people are simply physically stronger.

For example, Jaime notices that Brienne is stronger than him, and that makes sense because she is taller and heavier. GRRM also points out, “I would say Brienne is taller than Renly and Jaime, and significantly heavier than either,” but “nowhere near the size of Gregor,” who is almost eight feet tall and incredibly muscular, making him inhumanly strong, also according to Jaime. Even on Jaime’s list, the people who are stronger than him are physically bigger, taller, and heavier.

Tyrion knows Shagga and Gregor. He sees Shagga snapping the blade and throwing armored men across a room, and no one acts shocked, which suggests that Shagga’s size naturally explains his strength. The way Tyrion described Shagga is nothing like how most people describe Gregor physically. Tyrion describes Shagga as massive, and that he seems to be strong.

Even in Trial by Seven (semi-canon), Jaime’s fight shows how size and mass matter. Jaime is described as “the bigger man, taller, stronger” which lets him overpower a skilled opponent. His advantage comes not just from technique, but from being bigger and stronger, which is implied by GRRM. So being bigger and heavier makes you stronger.

Duncan at 16. Like I mentioned, he’s nearly seven feet tall and can physically overpower several grown armored men at once. His size and mass alone make him naturally very strong. So even if we didn’t had the exact feats to compare Shagga, Gregor, and Duncan, it’s reasonable to use size and how they are physically described to estimate strength in this verse. GRRM clearly shows that the largest, most massive people, like Shagga, Duncan, and Gregor, are stronger than most men. Gregor is probably the strongest human in Westeros. There is no one in this verse who is close to being as big as him.
 
Based on GRRM and his commentary, it makes sense to say that in Westeros, physical strength is closely tied to size, height and weight. Skill and training matter, but GRRM often shows that bigger people are simply physically stronger.

For example, Jaime notices that Brienne is stronger than him, and that makes sense because she is taller and heavier. GRRM also points out, “I would say Brienne is taller than Renly and Jaime, and significantly heavier than either,” but “nowhere near the size of Gregor,” who is almost eight feet tall and incredibly muscular, making him inhumanly strong, also according to Jaime. Even on Jaime’s list, the people who are stronger than him are physically bigger, taller, and heavier.

Tyrion knows Shagga and Gregor. He sees Shagga snapping the blade and throwing armored men across a room, and no one acts shocked, which suggests that Shagga’s size naturally explains his strength. The way Tyrion described Shagga is nothing like how most people describe Gregor physically. Tyrion describes Shagga as massive, and that he seems to be strong.

Even in Trial by Seven (semi-canon), Jaime’s fight shows how size and mass matter. Jaime is described as “the bigger man, taller, stronger” which lets him overpower a skilled opponent. His advantage comes not just from technique, but from being bigger and stronger, which is implied by GRRM. So being bigger and heavier makes you stronger.

Duncan at 16. Like I mentioned, he’s nearly seven feet tall and can physically overpower several grown armored men at once. His size and mass alone make him naturally very strong. So even if we didn’t had the exact feats to compare Shagga, Gregor, and Duncan, it’s reasonable to use size and how they are physically described to estimate strength in this verse. GRRM clearly shows that the largest, most massive people, like Shagga, Duncan, and Gregor, are stronger than most men. Gregor is probably the strongest human in Westeros. There is no one in this verse who is close to being as big as him.
I see what you mean, but Jaime mentioned Arthur in his list, and yet nothing suggests that Arthur was significantly taller and heavier than Jaime.
Jaime is also stronger than most men, even though he's not as heavy as those he mentioned (and that was probably also true for Arthur Dayne).

Obviously, height and weight are related to strength, just like in real life, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're stronger, especially in fiction and when considering power scaling.
 
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nothing suggests that Arthur was significantly taller and heavier
Arthur was never really described physically, yet he’s still placed alongside people like Robert. Gregor, however, is a completely different unit altogether. There is truly no one who comes close to his size, and there are statements from people saying they’ve never seen anyone as big as him, from the North all the way down to Dorne. We’re talking about descriptions that are extremely exaggerated physically.. like Gregor, Shagga, Dunk, or even Maegor. There are also people like Daemon Blackfyre who, by feats, would still be physically considered a low-tier knight, even though he is described as tall and powerful by Westerosi standards, these descriptions carry weight.
Obviously, height and weight are related to strength, just like in real life, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're stronger, especially in fiction and when considering power scaling
Like, come on… we can’t claim that Jaime is, for example, physically stronger than Maegor, who is described by GRRM as: “A big man, even taller than his father Aegon, bull-like, with heavy shoulders, a thick neck, huge arms, on the heavy side but more massive and square than fat. Nothing soft about him” He was beating grown men into submission in melee at 13. There is simply no direct feat to scale them to each other either, since there is a huge time gap, so the best we can do is look at how they are physically built. And in this verse, some people are described in such exaggerated physical terms that we can easily make a reasonable estimation from that.
 
Arthur was never really described physically, yet he’s still placed alongside people like Robert. Gregor, however, is a completely different unit altogether. There is truly no one who comes close to his size, and there are statements from people saying they’ve never seen anyone as big as him, from the North all the way down to Dorne. We’re talking about descriptions that are extremely exaggerated physically.. like Gregor, Shagga, Dunk, or even Maegor. There are also people like Daemon Blackfyre who, by feats, would still be physically considered a low-tier knight, even though he is described as tall and powerful by Westerosi standards, these descriptions carry weight.
Yes, but that's still not explicit proof that Gregor Clegane is stronger than Shagga. It's probably the case, yes, but there's no clear cut evidence to prove it; size and weight aren't necessarily enough to prove it.

Like, come on… we can’t claim that Jaime is, for example, physically stronger than Maegor, who is described by GRRM as: “A big man, even taller than his father Aegon, bull-like, with heavy shoulders, a thick neck, huge arms, on the heavy side but more massive and square than fat. Nothing soft about him” He was beating grown men into submission in melee at 13. There is simply no direct feat to scale them to each other either, since there is a huge time gap, so the best we can do is look at how they are physically built. And in this verse, some people are described in such exaggerated physical terms that we can easily make a reasonable estimation from that.
I never mentioned scaling characters who are hundreds of years apart. There's no reason to scale Jaime Lannister and Maegor Targaryen without a direct statement from George R.R. Martin.
 
Yes, but that's still not explicit proof that Gregor Clegane is stronger than Shagga. It's probably the case, yes, but there's no clear cut evidence to prove it; size and weight aren't necessarily enough to prove it.
Then let’s forget about it if the VSBW rule would disagree, since no one would scale to Shagga due to a lack of interactions. I would then just recalculate Brienne’s feat using a Holstein cow, even though aurochs are cattle as well and were common in medieval times. The results should still be wall-level, but the lifting strength would likely drop to Class 10.


I never mentioned scaling characters who are hundreds of years apart. There's no reason to scale Jaime Lannister and Maegor Targaryen without a direct statement from George R.R. Martin.
I meant that Jaime would likely be physically superior here in VSBW via the Brienne feat, and there is no way to apply it to Maegor, despite him clearly being described as physically superior.
 
Brienne's calculation isn't entirely accurate because LegendariumOfLies falsely assumes that all cows in ASOIAF are aurochs, but that's not the case, as cows also exist in this version. This will only slightly change the calculation result, so he didn't want to redo it, but it should still be mentioned just in case.

Anyway, if the calculations you did with Shagga are accepted, it's better to use than Brienne's feat regarding AP, but the problem is that we can't scale any characters to Shagga, neither via feats nor via statements.

I think it would be better to close this thread and discuss it in the general discussion and wait to see if your calculations are accepted or not.
I will find a more accurate measurement of cattle and post it.
 
Couldn't find an official height, but I did find a way to deduce it.
So, Medieval Cattle had "Wither Height" from 95-105 cm.
According to this paper, Wither Height is usually 2 1/4 times of the head and the length of the body is 3 1/4 Times the Head.
So, going with the high end:
  • 3 1/4 = 13/4
    • Head Height * (13/4) = Length of The Body
    • Head Height = Length of The Body * 4/13
  • 2 1/4 = 9/4
    • Head Height * (9/4) = Wither Height
    • Length of The Body * 4/13 * 9/4 = Wither Height
    • Length of The Body * 9/13 = Wither Height
    • Length of The Body * 9/13 = 105 cm
    • Length of The Body = 105 cm * 13/9
    • Length of The Body = 151.6666666667 cm
 
I did a recalculation. Could you please take a look? I kept your structure but replaced the auroch with a Holstein cow, since they are the most common dairy cows. It should be generally more accurate than using an aurochs.
The Problem is that modern cows - like Holstein Cows - are way bigger than Medieval Cows. I recommend using what I did here:

Couldn't find an official height, but I did find a way to deduce it.
So, Medieval Cattle had "Wither Height" from 95-105 cm.
According to this paper, Wither Height is usually 2 1/4 times of the head and the length of the body is 3 1/4 Times the Head.
So, going with the high end:
  • 3 1/4 = 13/4
    • Head Height * (13/4) = Length of The Body
    • Head Height = Length of The Body * 4/13
  • 2 1/4 = 9/4
    • Head Height * (9/4) = Wither Height
    • Length of The Body * 4/13 * 9/4 = Wither Height
    • Length of The Body * 9/13 = Wither Height
    • Length of The Body * 9/13 = 105 cm
    • Length of The Body = 105 cm * 13/9
    • Length of The Body = 151.6666666667 cm
 
The Problem is that modern cows - like Holstein Cows - are way bigger than Medieval Cows. I recommend using what I did here:
Thanks for the info! I took a look in your link. Just to clarify, ASOIAF is based on the Wars of the Roses, so late medieval England, not the early Middle Ages. By that time, cattle were already larger than the 95–105 cm early medieval types you mention, though still smaller than modern Holsteins.
 
Thanks for the info! I took a look in your link. Just to clarify, ASOIAF is based on the Wars of the Roses, so late medieval England, not the early Middle Ages. By that time, cattle were already larger than the 95–105 cm early medieval types you mention, though still smaller than modern Holsteins.
I actually found a source that gives an estimate for late medieval cattle. Armitage’s Studies on the Remains of Domestic Livestock from Roman, Medieval and Early Modern London, and it seems to be the most accurate one we could reasonably get. I’m lucky to have found it! The largest improved cattle of the 14th–15th centuries could reach about 1.5 m at the withers. Do you think your head to body ratio calculations could be applied here using this wither height? If so, am I ready to go with these numbers?
 
I actually found a source that gives an estimate for late medieval cattle. Armitage’s Studies on the Remains of Domestic Livestock from Roman, Medieval and Early Modern London, and it seems to be the most accurate one we could reasonably get. I’m lucky to have found it! The largest improved cattle of the 14th–15th centuries could reach about 1.5 m at the withers. Do you think your head to body ratio calculations could be applied here using this wither height? If so, am I ready to go with these numbers?
If we have a direct statement from a reputable authority, go with that
 
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