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-Kaneki vs Chisaki- [14-8-0] - GRACE
- Thread starter NikHelton
- Start date
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He can one shot Overhaul without it anyway, Overhaul is scaling to 8-A. His spikes being Low 7-B and the fact that he can heal himself forever as long as his brain and arms are intact are the main thing.
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I agree the decon can work on Kaneki but nothing really stops him from dodging it
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- #84
We use Post-Rose Kaneki, not Post-Dragon
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Ik, I'm bringing it up to show how powerful it can be.
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The way to dodge it would be to never let Overhaul touch his Kagune with his hands. While speed is equal and Overhaul can predict his movements on top of shift the terrain how he wishes. While the Kagune is his main attack option from range.
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And to be clear on the speed of Overhaul, it is legit near-instantaneous or at the least thought based matter manipulation.
People directly comparable to Base Overhaul call it fast and he used it to basically one shot Nighteye.
It’s so fast that Mirio’s fist was mere centimeters away from punching one of his subordinates, Kurono, but Overhaul predicted it and Overhaul’d the ground to move Kurono before it connected. Like the speed of his his quirk when he makes contact is ABSURDLY fast just for how his constructs move, let alone the fact that when he touches something it’s basically all under his control immediately, requiring just a thought to remove it.
Shigaraki’s decay is the thing that has a travel time where people can react. Overhaul touching you seems limited solely by the time it takes for him to think of what to change you into.
People directly comparable to Base Overhaul call it fast and he used it to basically one shot Nighteye.
It’s so fast that Mirio’s fist was mere centimeters away from punching one of his subordinates, Kurono, but Overhaul predicted it and Overhaul’d the ground to move Kurono before it connected. Like the speed of his his quirk when he makes contact is ABSURDLY fast just for how his constructs move, let alone the fact that when he touches something it’s basically all under his control immediately, requiring just a thought to remove it.
Shigaraki’s decay is the thing that has a travel time where people can react. Overhaul touching you seems limited solely by the time it takes for him to think of what to change you into.
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thats decon of Cells which is biological, Overhaul is decon of matter. resistance to bio =/= resistance to matter, Kaneki would need a resistance to decon + matter manip rather than just exclusively resistance to bio decon to resist overhaul.
even if we claim it is, Overhaul's quirk works beyond the cellular as its affecting the matter of the object and matter is much smaller than cells. Shigaraki, someone who's quirk is a modified version of Overhaul minus the reconstruction aspect, turns anything he touches into literally nothing which just a touch. another difference is the Overhaul effects happen instantly, so what Shigaraki is doing in that screenshot would happen to Kaneki instantly as soon as Overhaul touches anything thats on his body i.e kagune.
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- #90
The issue of analytical prediction is a pressing one.
Let's start with the fact that Kaneki has an inherent advantage in reaction time thanks to his accelerated perception, which allows him to analyze the battle much better and fight a couple of steps ahead.
Chisaki's advantage over faster opponents is good, but it's hard to say that it matters to TG when characters like Yomo and Suzuya can easily withstand blitz attacks that border on teleportation, and far less powerful fighters like Shinohara are capable of defeating opponents close enough to keep them on the brink of death from 20 meters away.
This is also considering that Shinohara is able to match the superior Kuzen's skills, who is considered a more dangerous opponent by the CCG than Ian, who fought against hundreds of investigators at once, including 15 Special Classes and 20 Special Class candidates, which puts these fighters on the same level as Ui or Akira.
Not to mention Kaneki's instinctive reaction, which allows him to fight and dodge with his eyes closed, using acrobatics, and which surpasses Urie's instinctive reaction, who is able to dodge attacks that are completely invisible to his perception.
By the way, Yomo, with all his skills, was defeated by Mogan, whom Kaneki easily defeated back in the first part.
Fighters like Koma, who are Kaneki's primary weapon, are capable of instantly stopping mid-movement and reacting to techniques they didn't see coming, and then dodging a powerful danmaku in mid-air, without a single point of support, without sustaining a single scratch.
Kaneki was eventually able to surpass Arima, who can fend off three opponents with accelerated perception and reacting to blitz attacks, doing so with one hand and without looking.
Kaneki's ability to kill 645 times in two seconds isn't a feat of imagination, but a demonstration of deep reading and information analysis of such a powerful opponent, leaving him no chance of resistance.
Skills of a much less experienced fighter like Ui are sufficient to fight two opponents of comparable speed with accelerated perception and block the attacks of one of them simply by knowing he's behind him. He then manages to attack the opponent from behind without looking, while dodging an intense barrage of blows from the faster opponent.
Earlier Kaneki's skills were more than enough to fight two experienced investigators and disable them barehanded, literally breakdancing on their quinque.
Kaneki himself actively spams danmaku with his tentacles and will successfully combat those who resist these attacks as easily as a fish swims in water. Yes, the spikes are Low 7-B, but that's in terms of their AP, not Durability. Kaneki will simply destroy them time after time. His AD is strong enough to raise it from 8-A to 7-C/High 7-C in Part I. Sooner or later, he will become too fast, and his body too durable. Furthermore, his kakuja blitz amp is faster than Suzuya's blitz amp, making him virtually invisible to the enemy and allowing him to slice them with measured, casual precision. His blitz amp also surpasses Centipide's, which allowed him to bypass the perception and foresight of the opponent who dealt him the fatal blow a page earlier.
So, in addition to the difference in reaction time, we have superior skills and increased speed.
Spikes won't be a problem either, as ghouls are able to quickly recover from such wounds and continue fighting.
"Matter is any substance that has mass and takes up space by having volume." Saying that the destruction of matter is more powerful than the destruction of cells is a direct admission of "I think so because it sounds cooler." Matter isn't even necessarily at the cellular level.
And let's go over it again: Chisaki's Quirk causes matter to disintegrate and reassemble. Kaneki's Kagune is resistant to disintegration due to the disruption of the connections between cells. No matter what causes this, Chisaki simply won't be able to disassemble them unless his hax is multi-layered or at the molecular level (or higher). His Kagune reassembly also won't work because Kaneki controls his kagune's cells with his mind. While Chisaki is reassembling his kagune, Kaneki is directly resisting it with his thought processes. Ghouls have already resisted the effects of their RC cells and prevented this.
By the way, ghouls are also able to change the direction of their cells and make them detonate, so it is quite possible that Kaneki will simply detonate his kagune when Chisaki tries to influence it.
Ultimately, suppressive skills, AD, which previously allowed you to jump from MHS to MHS+ and blitz opponents that previously suppressed you, accelerated perception, LS, regeneration and absorption should do their job.
Let's start with the fact that Kaneki has an inherent advantage in reaction time thanks to his accelerated perception, which allows him to analyze the battle much better and fight a couple of steps ahead.
Chisaki's advantage over faster opponents is good, but it's hard to say that it matters to TG when characters like Yomo and Suzuya can easily withstand blitz attacks that border on teleportation, and far less powerful fighters like Shinohara are capable of defeating opponents close enough to keep them on the brink of death from 20 meters away.
This is also considering that Shinohara is able to match the superior Kuzen's skills, who is considered a more dangerous opponent by the CCG than Ian, who fought against hundreds of investigators at once, including 15 Special Classes and 20 Special Class candidates, which puts these fighters on the same level as Ui or Akira.
Not to mention Kaneki's instinctive reaction, which allows him to fight and dodge with his eyes closed, using acrobatics, and which surpasses Urie's instinctive reaction, who is able to dodge attacks that are completely invisible to his perception.
By the way, Yomo, with all his skills, was defeated by Mogan, whom Kaneki easily defeated back in the first part.
Fighters like Koma, who are Kaneki's primary weapon, are capable of instantly stopping mid-movement and reacting to techniques they didn't see coming, and then dodging a powerful danmaku in mid-air, without a single point of support, without sustaining a single scratch.
Kaneki was eventually able to surpass Arima, who can fend off three opponents with accelerated perception and reacting to blitz attacks, doing so with one hand and without looking.
Kaneki's ability to kill 645 times in two seconds isn't a feat of imagination, but a demonstration of deep reading and information analysis of such a powerful opponent, leaving him no chance of resistance.
Skills of a much less experienced fighter like Ui are sufficient to fight two opponents of comparable speed with accelerated perception and block the attacks of one of them simply by knowing he's behind him. He then manages to attack the opponent from behind without looking, while dodging an intense barrage of blows from the faster opponent.
Earlier Kaneki's skills were more than enough to fight two experienced investigators and disable them barehanded, literally breakdancing on their quinque.
Kaneki himself actively spams danmaku with his tentacles and will successfully combat those who resist these attacks as easily as a fish swims in water. Yes, the spikes are Low 7-B, but that's in terms of their AP, not Durability. Kaneki will simply destroy them time after time. His AD is strong enough to raise it from 8-A to 7-C/High 7-C in Part I. Sooner or later, he will become too fast, and his body too durable. Furthermore, his kakuja blitz amp is faster than Suzuya's blitz amp, making him virtually invisible to the enemy and allowing him to slice them with measured, casual precision. His blitz amp also surpasses Centipide's, which allowed him to bypass the perception and foresight of the opponent who dealt him the fatal blow a page earlier.
So, in addition to the difference in reaction time, we have superior skills and increased speed.
Spikes won't be a problem either, as ghouls are able to quickly recover from such wounds and continue fighting.
Sorry, but that's absurd.thats decon of Cells which is biological, Overhaul is decon of matter. resistance to bio =/= resistance to matter, Kaneki would need a resistance to decon + matter manip rather than just exclusively resistance to bio decon to resist overhaul.
even if we claim it is, Overhaul's quirk works beyond the cellular as its affecting the matter of the object and matter is much smaller than cells. Shigaraki, someone who's quirk is a modified version of Overhaul minus the reconstruction aspect, turns anything he touches into literally nothing which just a touch. another difference is the Overhaul effects happen instantly, so what Shigaraki is doing in that screenshot would happen to Kaneki instantly as soon as Overhaul touches anything thats on his body i.e kagune.
"Matter is any substance that has mass and takes up space by having volume." Saying that the destruction of matter is more powerful than the destruction of cells is a direct admission of "I think so because it sounds cooler." Matter isn't even necessarily at the cellular level.
And let's go over it again: Chisaki's Quirk causes matter to disintegrate and reassemble. Kaneki's Kagune is resistant to disintegration due to the disruption of the connections between cells. No matter what causes this, Chisaki simply won't be able to disassemble them unless his hax is multi-layered or at the molecular level (or higher). His Kagune reassembly also won't work because Kaneki controls his kagune's cells with his mind. While Chisaki is reassembling his kagune, Kaneki is directly resisting it with his thought processes. Ghouls have already resisted the effects of their RC cells and prevented this.
By the way, ghouls are also able to change the direction of their cells and make them detonate, so it is quite possible that Kaneki will simply detonate his kagune when Chisaki tries to influence it.
Ultimately, suppressive skills, AD, which previously allowed you to jump from MHS to MHS+ and blitz opponents that previously suppressed you, accelerated perception, LS, regeneration and absorption should do their job.
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Shit, I forgot about most of the skills in Tokyo Ghoul. Kaneki slamps
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Overhaul isn't Molecular, its atomic esp by the sounds of the profile " At this level, users can change the nature of atoms and their properties, allowing them to transmute one thing into another, destroy atoms to obliterate targets, and completely rearrange atomic structures to create virtually anything." look at "destroy atoms to obliterate targets" its quite literally what he does when someone picks a fight with him. "rearrange atomic structures to create something new" Kai can recombine two different objects or beings into a single entity that possesses components of both subjects, including Quirks to make something news, the quirk factor is literally just a gene factor that he's manipulating. if thats not clear cut atomic then idk what it is, no matter what he can bypass the resistance since his works on a higher level than molecular and overhaul isn't biological, its targeting matter, so kaneki resistance doesn't cover that since its not an outright resistance to decon.
The reassemble process is something Kai can do if he wants too, he wouldn't do that in this case cause he'd just kill him and get it over with. he'd touch and kaneki goes pop instantly, he's done it to compress and magane and it'll be the same here.
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Do you have any direct statements that this is at the atomic level?
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Are leaning statements votes
Arkenis
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not for me, im just reading through
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- #97
Did Chisaki also demonstrate the instantaneous destruction of something larger than a human?
Because in another instance, due to the rapid contact, he only destroyed an arm.
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Just asking because @DarthSorox “leaning closer” statement was counted as a vote (tbf we all should already know who they’re voting for based off of the past 17 kaneki matchups
)
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Considering all my further arguments, I votedJust asking because @DarthSorox “leaning closer” statement was counted as a vote (tbf we all should really know who they’re voting for based off of the past 17 kaneki matchups
Kaneki FRA
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- #100
Will you vote?
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ofc Kaneki
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- #102
What about your voices?
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its on the profile, the range of Overhaul is Tens of Meters since he instantly decon'd an entire room and turned it into spikes.
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Kaneki doesn't even need to resist Decon. He sees that Overhaul is doing crazy things with his hands and avoids contact with them. He quickly activates his kakuja, then crushes Chisaki with his skills, agility, and speed. The spikes will be of little use against Kaneki, and he will be able to avoid getting hit by the Quirk.
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no statements but based on what we've seen Overhaul do, it fits the qualifications for it.
"allowing them to transmute one thing into another": he used Overhaul on Eri's body in order to create the quirk destroying bullets and restored it back into its previous state
"destroy atoms to obliterate targets": its not directly pointed out to be atoms but we've seen Overhaul quite literally obliterate people by just touching them slightly with his quirk activated and since its the same quirk as Decay, we've seen Decay turn something into literally nothing.
"completely rearrange atomic structures to create virtually anything.": Overhaul could turn Eri's Body into bullets, can fuse two things together to create something new, and combine even himself with other people to take their quirks which is a gene within the body.
If Kaneki both resist decon and can bypass the spikes which as you said he could due to regen, then its a stomp since Overhaul can't do anything about skill slop and AD
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Yet somehow the previous matchup is being labeled as a stomp because he wouldnt know to avoid the decon and his hands somehow. Yall gotta pick 1 argument and stick with it
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- #107
Chisaki turned concrete into tiny fragments and people into a bloody mist. At best, this is on a cellular level.
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- #109
What were Kaneki's wincons in the last match? They had identical stats, and Kaneki couldn't get a one-shot without AD. Now he can, and he's more experienced and skilled than before. Especially judging by what I saw above, he's resisting deconstruction.
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- #111
He still kills Kaneki with a body touch and has a 23x AP advantage initially, plus he also has healing that is unaffected by Kaneki's regen neg.
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a body touch that just wouldn't happen due to YOUR exact words. "Ultimately, suppressive skills, AD, which previously allowed you to jump from MHS to MHS+ and blitz opponents that previously suppressed you, accelerated perception, LS, regeneration"
AD allowing him to become faster and seeing Overhaul in a slower speed means that the moment overhaul would try to touch him (if he even approached) he gets dodged and one tapped :/ since Overhaul only scales to 711 tons physically well Kaneki is 91 Kilotons. "he could heal" yah from a strike that's gonna break all the bones in his body, not happening either.
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- #113
You can vote for Kaneki if I've convinced you otherwise. At least for now, I've recorded your vote for Chisaki. However, Kingofwolves was quite confident that Chisaki's skills and analytical forecasting were superior. Not that I agree, but several members still believe Chisaki will win decisively.
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- #114
Will you vote?
Arkenis
They/Them- 25,635
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From what I gathered, the main issue is differences between Kaneki's bio decon resistance and Overhaul's decon. I typically assume characters capable of decon that morph objects to how they want usually is atomic since changing the object means you're moving around the atoms to make things like blades have sharp edges or points like his spikes. Overhaul can heal too, I assume as long as it doesn't kill him he should be fine so that's something I'm wondering if it'll even matter if Kaneki does somehow get to land a hit. I guess even if overhaul doesn't instantly disassemble, Kaneki's still losing billions of his rc cells every time overhaul does land. This'll make Kaneki have to keep producing new rc cells and from what I know, he doesn't have the ability to keep doing that.
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- #116
Argument was that Hashira's resistance is on par with that of ghouls and quinxes, while Kaneki's is many times greater.
Although I don’t understand what Muzan has to do with it.
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I fully believe its a stomp for Kaneki IF HE bypasses both decon via resistance and spikes via regen and "breaking them" with what you said being unlikely due to skill slop, AD, and slower perception.
i don't agree with the idea that Kaneki's resistance covers the type of decon overhaul has since his has nothing to do with biology and is simply manipulating matter which at Overhaul's level is def above anything Kaneki could handle "Chisaki turned concrete into tiny fragments and people into a bloody mist. At best, this is on a cellular level." ignoring literally every other example and what the very page itself says "obliterating targets" does that every day, "turning something into something else" he used eri's body with his quirk to make bullets and could morph an entire room into spikes, "combining things together" he could combine his body with people in order to gain their quirks.
its an agree to disagree kind of thing, I still fully believe Overhaul touches and Kaneki pop's due to its range being more than enough for it to be instant.
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- #118
Not every restructuring works at the atomic level. It will either be ineffective against Kaneki or have a limited effect. Incidentally, Kaneki can detonate his kagune every time Chisaki attempts to affect it.
Otherwise, he simply transforms into a kakuja and attacks Chisaki from his blind spots. His accelerated perception, speed, and skill allow him to avoid external physical contact.
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- #119
By the way, even if this works, will it only destroy the kagune or the entire body? The kagune isn't a part of the body in the traditional sense. RC cells burst from under the skin, tearing it apart, circulating and reuniting externally.
As I understand it, if I strike Chisaki with a sword and he grabs the blade, it will only destroy the sword, not me.
If a character is bleeding and Chisaki touches the stream of blood, not the character, will it kill them?
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- #120
Should your vote for Chisaki be counted?
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