Downgrading Lord of Mysteries

[SuperNova55555]

So. This is somewhat awkward. The changes of the past CRTs have already been accepted, but I haven’t implemented them yet… and the thing is? I have to downgrade it already. Lol.

Well, most of it is fine—but Symbolism, which is accepted as 1-A, will have to go down to Low 1-A.

Spoiler: Downgrade

Symbolism is directly located within the Astral World. And that is not to say that it’s some sort of representation of the Symbolism, but the genuine Symbolism of Sefirot itself (which can be sealed to nerf characters lol).

And I have already explained in the previously linked thread how the Astral World cannot be 1-A. For example, a major grievance of such a claim would be the fact that there are non-1-A realms either within it, or at least connected to it in some way (even if through the power of an Astral World being as there is no change in ontology for the inhabitants).

Nevertheless, it would naturally still qualify for Low 1-A as they are BDE2 universals without any anti-feats with even space being (obviously) conceptual here. And it also upscales from the L1A Spirit World as well, so that’s a layer into L1A, I believe (given it contains Sefirah’s Symbolism of the Spirit World)

Now, as all Universal-Concepts are located within the Astral World, this sort of grants the entire realm Type 1 CM. This sentiment is also re-affirmed by the author himself.

Spoiler: Reconciliation

Yet, even as Symbolism goes down to Low 1-A, there is still hope for 1-A, specifically in regards to the Godhead of the verse—the Original Creator.

Well, I should begin by essentially explaining the nature of OC and the structure of the cosmology and how everything came to be (naturally, I recommend reading all the scans linked here, but I will go over them step-by-step. Nevertheless, please do ask if you want any specific thing or point clarified in some way):

1. Firstly, the Original Creator is the Primordial Chaos. Meaning that “0” here, which is attributed to non-existence or the non-duality of Chaos, is also just OC himself.
2. After “0”, the Original Creator awakens as “1” and Existence. And after doing so, separation and convergence, or rather, Yin and Yang are created by him. This is more-so an instinctual act of his, but it is essentially just to say that duality is a by-product of him (reflecting the Taiji obviously).
3. Then, he splits up into “2”, which is the divinities—or more accurately, the Sefirot and Symbolism—that manifests all things, which is “3”.
4. And naturally, all things eventually unite into the singularity of Chaos, including aspects of OC such as his spirit.

Now, as per the previous section of the CRT, all of this would remain Low 1-A, but in fact, that would only follow if we fallaciously assert that OC as “0”, “1” and the others remains at the same grade of substantiality—but that is certainly not the case.

As you can see above, the series already makes many distinctions between stuff like OC’s psyche, will, spirit, symbolism etc. so there’s grades to that to, but that’s not where we’re honing in here. The main distinction will be OC-as-sleeping (non-existence) and OC-as-awakened (existence). The former of which, I will attempt to posit as 1-A.

Naturally, I think it’s apt to mention that sleeping OC is capable of dreaming all of reality, which is a very cut-and-dry 1-A feat, so we are not lacking in that department even when making these distinctions between its ontological stages.

The main difference between the two OCs, then, comes from the fact that the universals themselves exist in different ontologies. That is, that the concepts as they are within OC are not universals at all and only act that way when they manifest themselves as Yin and Yang/split off from him which is to say that what we treat as “Low 1-A” is attained from an active ontological reduction. So to say, the concept of “Reality” within OC is different from when it is manifested as Symbolism within Mother Goddess of Depravity or her Sefirot, which is why it only takes effect after she is born.

This also makes sense when considering how OC is beyond the structure of Sefirot or of the cosmology itself being capable of altering them as it pleases him.

Also, the fact that duality itself is [of him] solidifies this point further. Naturally, there’s also no problem with “returning to 1-A” as it is done through the negation of the non-1-A properties into non-existence.

The cosmology then follows as such:

1. Original Creator, as “0”, remains in a state of primordial [non-existence] (Chaos) wherein it dreams all of Reality.
2. By waking up, it transitions into “1” as it manifests itself as [existence].
3. There, “2” also follows, which is the aforementioned process of OC manifesting all the notions it possesses into universals, which for LOTM’s current cycle is the Sefirot.
4. At the end of the universe, it returns all its existing aspects into non-existence, chaos and non-duality by returning to its sleeping state as “the origin of all things” wherein it continues dreaming reality free from separation and convergence.

Edit: In the scans describing the Astral World earlier in the thread, it is also said that the Astral World is a manifestation of the underlying chaos and madness of the world (which refers to OC), so it solidifies Symbolism (split-up OC) being a manifestation of OC

Conclusions:

Astral World -> CM Type 1 and 1 Layer into Low 1-A
Symbolism/Sefirot: 1-A -> 1 Layer into Low 1-A
Awakened OC -> 1 Layer into Low 1-A
Sleeping OC -> Remains 1-A as it R>Fs the entire metaphysical structure of LOTM whilst dreaming it up

Important Edit:

After some further discussion in this thread (which you can check yourself), I believe 1-A Astral World is tenable. Which means Sleeping OC is also 1 layer into 1-A.

Votes:

DarkDragonMedeus (Astral World should be 1-A)

Vietthai96 (Astral World should be 1-A)

Celestial_Pegasus (Astral World should be 1-A)

 

[karo_senpaii]

So. This is somewhat awkward. The changes of the past CRTs have already been accepted, but I haven’t implemented them yet… and the thing is? I have to downgrade it already. Lol.

Well, most of it is fine—but Symbolism, which is accepted as 1-A, will have to go down to Low 1-A.

Spoiler: Downgrade

Symbolism is directly located within the Astral World. And that is not to say that it’s some sort of representation of the Symbolism, but the genuine Symbolism of Sefirot itself (which can be sealed to nerf characters lol).

And I have already explained in the previously linked thread how the Astral World cannot be 1-A. For example, a major grievance of such a claim would be the fact that there are non-1-A realms either within it, or at least connected to it in some way (even if through the power of an Astral World being as there is no change in ontology for the inhabitants).

Nevertheless, it would naturally still qualify for Low 1-A as BDE2 universals without any anti-feats as even space is (obviously) conceptual here. And it also upscales from the L1A Spirit World as well, so that’s a layer into L1A, I believe (given it contains Sefirah’s Symbolism of the Spirit World)

Now, as all Universal-Concepts are located within the Astral World, this sort of grants the entire realm Type 1 CM. This sentiment is also re-affirmed by the author himself.

Spoiler: Reconciliation

Yet, even as Symbolism goes down to Low 1-A, there is still hope for 1-A, specifically in regards to the Godhead of the verse—the Original Creator.

Well, I should begin by essentially explaining the nature of OC and the structure of the cosmology and how everything came to be (naturally, I recommend reading all the scans linked here, but I will go over them step-by-step. Nevertheless, please do ask if you want any specific thing or point clarified in some way):

1. Firstly, the Original Creator is the Primordial Chaos. Meaning that “0” here, which is attributed to non-existence or the non-duality of Chaos, is also just OC himself.
2. After “0”, the Original Creator awakens as “1” and Existence. And after doing so, separation and convergence, or rather, Yin and Yang are created by him. This is more-so an instinctual act of his, but it is essentially just to say that duality is a by-product of him (reflecting the Taiji obviously).
3. Then, he splits up into “2”, which is the divinities—or more accurately, the Sefirot and Symbolism—that manifests all things, which is “3”.
4. And naturally, all things eventually unite into the singularity of Chaos, including aspects of OC such as his spirit.

Now, as per the previous section of the CRT, all of this would remain Low 1-A, but in fact, that would only follow if we fallaciously assert that OC as “0”, “1” and the others remains at the same grade of substantiality—but that is certainly not the case.

As you can see above, the series already makes many distinctions between stuff like OC’s psyche, will, spirit, symbolism etc. so there’s grades to that to, but that’s not where we’re honing in here. The main distinction will be OC-as-sleeping (non-existence) and OC-as-awakened (existence). The former of which, I will attempt to posit as 1-A.

Naturally, I think it’s apt to mention that sleeping OC is capable of dreaming all of reality, which is a very cut-and-dry 1-A feat, so we are not lacking in that department even when making these distinctions between its ontological stages.

The main difference between the two OCs, then, comes from the fact that the universals themselves exist in different ontologies. That is, that the concepts as they are within OC are not universals at all and only act that way when they manifest themselves as Yin and Yang/split off from him which is to say that what we treat as “Low 1-A” is attained from an active ontological reduction. So to say, the concept of “Reality” within OC is different from when it is manifested as Symbolism within Mother Goddess of Depravity or her Sefirot, which is it only takes effect after she is born.

This also makes sense when considering how OC is beyond the structure of Sefirot or of the cosmology itself being capable of altering them as it pleases him.

Also, the fact that duality itself is [of him] solidifies this point further. Naturally, there’s also no problem with “returning to 1-A” as it is done through the negation of the non-1-A properties into non-existence.

The cosmology then follows as such:

1. Original Creator, as “0”, remains in a state of primordial [non-existence] (Chaos) wherein it dreams all of Reality.
2. By waking up, it transitions into “1” as it manifests itself as [existence].
3. There, “2” also follows, which is the aforementioned process of OC manifesting all the notions it possesses into universals, which for LOTM’s current cycle is the Sefirot.
4. At the end of the universe, it returns all its existing aspects into non-existence, chaos and non-duality by returning to its sleeping state as “the origin of all things” wherein it continues dreaming reality free from separation and convergence.

Conclusions:

Astral World -> CM Type 1 and 1 Layer into Low 1-A
Symbolism/Sefirot: 1-A -> 1 Layer into Low 1-A
Awakened OC -> 1 Layer into Low 1-A
Sleeping OC -> Remains 1-A as it R>Fs the entire metaphysical structure of LOTM whilst dreaming it up

Low1A doesn't have layers. 1layer above is just 1A. So if it truly doesn't have r>f then it's still just low 1A

 

[SuperNova55555]

Also, to clarify any confusion, there’s a difference between Chaos as OC’s/Chaos Sea’s Symbolism, and Chaos as the manifested substance of the former. So the unity of Symbolism/Yin-Yang (like Termination Symbolism for example) is not the same as something like the vortex of chaos (Termination’s manifested power).

To reference the post, this can also be seen in how OCs manifested aspects are erased into the substance of chaos, whereas it’s essential aspects unite/return to its sleeping state.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Low1A doesn't have layers. 1layer above is just 1A. So if it truly doesn't have r>f then it's still just low 1A

Low 1-A has layers. It's infinitely extendable without any end point.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Low1A doesn't have layers. 1layer above is just 1A. So if it truly doesn't have r>f then it's still just low 1A

Low 1-A has layers.

 

[karo_senpaii]

That makes absolutely no sense

Low 1-A has layers. It's infinitely extendable without any end point.

Low 1-A has layers.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

That makes absolutely no sense

How?

 

[SuperNova55555]

That makes absolutely no sense

It does. In a mathematical context, you can have higher-order collections beyond Proper Classes like Conglomerates.

The only requirements for Low 1-A is to be beyond the all possible spatial extensions, but realms can still possess differing “sizes” in abstract configurations.

 

[karo_senpaii]

It does. In a mathematical context, you can have higher-order collections beyond Proper Classes like Conglomerates.

The only requirements for Low 1-A is to be beyond the all possible spatial extensions, but realms can still possess differing “sizes” in abstract configurations.

What you're saying isn't a layer. It's still just low 1a of varying size.
Are you saying technically someone can be Low1A+ if so that's definitely not denoted by the tiering system

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

What you're saying isn't a layer. It's still just low 1a of varying size.

A layer is just a way to say something is transcendent to an infinite degree in this case.

 

[karo_senpaii]

How?

Beyond dimensionality is low 1a. 1 layer of 1a is qualitative superiority over a 1a realm. What exactly is 1 layer above low1a?

 

[SuperNova55555]

What you're saying isn't a layer. It's still just low 1a of varying size.
Are you saying technically someone can be Low1A+ if so that's definitely not denoted by the tiering system

Layers into Low 1-A are just the difference between High 1-B and Low 1-A repeated—which can be achieved many ways. Astral World does this by transcending all extensions of the Spirit World.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Layers into Low 1-A are just the difference between High 1-B and Low 1-A repeated—which can be achieved many ways. Astral World does this by transcending all extensions of the Spirit World.

Transcends it how? Qualitatively?

 

[Exoko]

That last one finally concluded

 

[SuperNova55555]

Transcends it how? Qualitatively?

That’s specifically what Low 1-A doesn’t do. If you’re gonna be willingly ignorant and ignore the explanations I gave above then please do not bother responding and wait for mods.

 

[karo_senpaii]

That’s specifically what Low 1-A doesn’t do. If you’re gonna be willingly ignorant and ignore the explanations I gave above then please do not bother responding and wait for mods.

It's not about ignoring what you explained. I'm looking at the tiering system and among tier 1, Low1A is the only tier that does not have any explanation that it can be layers.
High1b it goes all the way and the highest has a+ attached, 1a same thing, even high 1a. But Low1A does not have layers, sure you can say it transcends a low 1a structure but it's still just stuck at Low1A coz there are no layers for that tier

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

It's not about ignoring what you explained. I'm looking at the tiering system and among tier 1, Low1A is the only tier that does not have any explanation that it can be layers.
High1b it goes all the way and the highest has a+ attached, 1a same thing, even high 1a. But Low1A does not have layers, sure you can say it transcends a low 1a structure but it's still just stuck at Low1A coz there are no layers for that tier

Not everything has to be put into explicit standards. Layers is literally just a convenient way to give name to a certain degree of transcendence/aboveness that can actually occur within the tier as the tier has no endpoint.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Not everything has to be put into explicit standards. Layers is literally just a convenient way to give name to a certain degree of transcendence/aboveness that can actually occur within the tier as the tier has no endpoint.

Tiers actually have an end point, that's what the + is for. If it had layers it would be there just like every other tier itself.

Also transcendence has to be explained to fit the tiering system. Is it qualitative? If so that's 1a, if it's not then it's just bigger Low1A, low 1A in itself is meant to be where quantitative transcendence caps.

The thread itself is fine. 1 layer just seems weird, it doesn't exist. Could have simply just put Low1A( transcends the spirit world which is Low1A) and it's all good

 

[SuperNova55555]

That last one finally concluded

I had ts cooking for a month now. Just needed to wait to post it lel. If it makes u feel any better, this should be the last AP one and then I can get unto the hax stuff finally.

Tiers actually have an end point, that's what the + is for. If it had layers it would be there just like every other tier itself.

Also transcendence has to be explained to fit the tiering system. Is it qualitative? If so that's 1a, if it's not then it's just bigger Low1A, low 1A in itself is meant to be where quantitative transcendence caps.

The thread itself is fine. 1 layer just seems weird, it doesn't exist. Could have simply just put Low1A( transcends the spirit world which is Low1A) and it's all good

There is no end point to these tiers. + just denotes when it becomes infinite. Just like how High 1-B+ denotes multiple different cardinalities, + just denotes any layering that is infinite and above. 1-A+ is used for both Aleph-0 amounts of R>Fs and also Aleph-1 and above amounts of R>Fs.

Also, Low 1-A layers are already explained in the wiki. And even if they weren’t, any mod is capable of confirming that they exist.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I agree with the downgrade

 

[Exoko]

Is there another reason as to why the Astral World cannot be 1A? The inhabitants of Morora all entered and were immediately subjected to it's rules and restrictions as prisoners, showcasing any ontological change from their POV would be weird.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Is there another reason as to why the Astral World cannot be 1A? The inhabitants of Morora all entered and were immediately subjected to it's rules and restrictions as prisoners, showcasing any ontological change from their POV would be weird.

It’s the fact that it’s connected to there that is the problem here. You can’t have “portals to 1-A”.

 

[Hjdjdhf]

agree

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good from a glance.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

It’s the fact that it’s connected to there that is the problem here. You can’t have “portals to 1-A”.

Based on what? Unless those portals are made by something non 1-A then it isn’t an anti-feat

 

[Syncornize]

Conclusions:

Astral World -> CM Type 1 and 1 Layer into Low 1-A
Symbolism/Sefirot: 1-A -> 1 Layer into Low 1-A
Awakened OC -> 1 Layer into Low 1-A
Sleeping OC -> Remains 1-A as it R>Fs the entire metaphysical structure of LOTM whilst dreaming it up

Votes: DarkDragonMedeus (Agree)

agree with the downrade

 

[SuperNova55555]

Based on what? Unless those portals are made by something non 1-A then it isn’t an anti-feat

The thing connecting Morora and the rest of the world is just some road lol. You’d have to prove that simply walking there actively changes their ontology which is certainly not what happened as it would’ve been pointed out just like any other time the Astral World has been mentioned. It’s literally just some dimension the same as the real world.

 

[Exoko]

The thing connecting Morora and the rest of the world is just some road lol. You’d have to prove that simply walking there actively changes their ontology which is certainly not what happened as it would’ve been pointed out just like any other time the Astral World has been mentioned. It’s literally just some dimension the same as the real world.

The path was the oesophagus of the God of Knowledge and Wisdom, and Morora has already been said to be unreachable, the only reason the MC can reach it is due to his convergence/mystical connections. It's unknown how exactly he transported them (maybe he somehow analysed and recreated an astral world tunnel or an Imitation of some other ability like Grafting), got to wait till the White Tower reveal which might take a few months.
I can't really refute this so I'm gonna wait for the reveal, but wouldn't the Hornacis Mountain Range be a better example, or does the obscurity of Grafting cover it up.

But 'where Morora was' was meant to be a mystery until it was revealed later on, hence why 'ascending' or any other ontological changes were not mentioned, that'd just give it away.

Also when was it said that universal symbolism could be or were sealed?

 

[SuperNova55555]

The path was the oesophagus of the God of Knowledge and Wisdom, and Morora has already been said to be unreachable, the only reason the MC can reach it is due to his convergence/mystical connections. It's unknown how exactly he transported them (maybe he somehow analysed and recreated an astral world tunnel or an Imitation of some other ability like Grafting), got to wait till the White Tower reveal which might take a few months.
I can't really refute this so I'm gonna wait for the reveal, but wouldn't the Hornacis Mountain Range be a better example, or does the obscurity of Grafting cover it up.

Morora was just a single example. I’m aware of the grafting too, just didn’t need to bring it up yet.

Also convergence is just the general workings of Fate, you still need to state how it specifically affects a certain thing.

But yeah, Morora is literally just a subspace within Herabergen. That’s… not really 1-A.

Also when was it said that universal symbolism could be or were sealed?

God Almighty’s symbolism to seal the Astral World. The scans are literally there.

 

[Exoko]

God Almighty’s symbolism to seal the Astral World. The scans are literally there.

Sorry, didn't see it.
Anyways it says they can use their Symbolism to partially seal another Symbolism, which ig is an issue since they also shouldn’t be able to affect each other.
Agreed for the downgrade

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Looks good to me.

 

[Verezen]

So. This is somewhat awkward. The changes of the past CRTs have already been accepted, but I haven’t implemented them yet… and the thing is? I have to downgrade it already. Lol.

Well, most of it is fine—but Symbolism, which is accepted as 1-A, will have to go down to Low 1-A.

Spoiler: Downgrade

Symbolism is directly located within the Astral World. And that is not to say that it’s some sort of representation of the Symbolism, but the genuine Symbolism of Sefirot itself (which can be sealed to nerf characters lol).

And I have already explained in the previously linked thread how the Astral World cannot be 1-A. For example, a major grievance of such a claim would be the fact that there are non-1-A realms either within it, or at least connected to it in some way (even if through the power of an Astral World being as there is no change in ontology for the inhabitants).

Nevertheless, it would naturally still qualify for Low 1-A as they are BDE2 universals without any anti-feats with even space being (obviously) conceptual here. And it also upscales from the L1A Spirit World as well, so that’s a layer into L1A, I believe (given it contains Sefirah’s Symbolism of the Spirit World)

Now, as all Universal-Concepts are located within the Astral World, this sort of grants the entire realm Type 1 CM. This sentiment is also re-affirmed by the author himself.

Spoiler: Reconciliation

Yet, even as Symbolism goes down to Low 1-A, there is still hope for 1-A, specifically in regards to the Godhead of the verse—the Original Creator.

Well, I should begin by essentially explaining the nature of OC and the structure of the cosmology and how everything came to be (naturally, I recommend reading all the scans linked here, but I will go over them step-by-step. Nevertheless, please do ask if you want any specific thing or point clarified in some way):

1. Firstly, the Original Creator is the Primordial Chaos. Meaning that “0” here, which is attributed to non-existence or the non-duality of Chaos, is also just OC himself.
2. After “0”, the Original Creator awakens as “1” and Existence. And after doing so, separation and convergence, or rather, Yin and Yang are created by him. This is more-so an instinctual act of his, but it is essentially just to say that duality is a by-product of him (reflecting the Taiji obviously).
3. Then, he splits up into “2”, which is the divinities—or more accurately, the Sefirot and Symbolism—that manifests all things, which is “3”.
4. And naturally, all things eventually unite into the singularity of Chaos, including aspects of OC such as his spirit.

Now, as per the previous section of the CRT, all of this would remain Low 1-A, but in fact, that would only follow if we fallaciously assert that OC as “0”, “1” and the others remains at the same grade of substantiality—but that is certainly not the case.

As you can see above, the series already makes many distinctions between stuff like OC’s psyche, will, spirit, symbolism etc. so there’s grades to that to, but that’s not where we’re honing in here. The main distinction will be OC-as-sleeping (non-existence) and OC-as-awakened (existence). The former of which, I will attempt to posit as 1-A.

Naturally, I think it’s apt to mention that sleeping OC is capable of dreaming all of reality, which is a very cut-and-dry 1-A feat, so we are not lacking in that department even when making these distinctions between its ontological stages.

The main difference between the two OCs, then, comes from the fact that the universals themselves exist in different ontologies. That is, that the concepts as they are within OC are not universals at all and only act that way when they manifest themselves as Yin and Yang/split off from him which is to say that what we treat as “Low 1-A” is attained from an active ontological reduction. So to say, the concept of “Reality” within OC is different from when it is manifested as Symbolism within Mother Goddess of Depravity or her Sefirot, which is why it only takes effect after she is born.

This also makes sense when considering how OC is beyond the structure of Sefirot or of the cosmology itself being capable of altering them as it pleases him.

Also, the fact that duality itself is [of him] solidifies this point further. Naturally, there’s also no problem with “returning to 1-A” as it is done through the negation of the non-1-A properties into non-existence.

The cosmology then follows as such:

1. Original Creator, as “0”, remains in a state of primordial [non-existence] (Chaos) wherein it dreams all of Reality.
2. By waking up, it transitions into “1” as it manifests itself as [existence].
3. There, “2” also follows, which is the aforementioned process of OC manifesting all the notions it possesses into universals, which for LOTM’s current cycle is the Sefirot.
4. At the end of the universe, it returns all its existing aspects into non-existence, chaos and non-duality by returning to its sleeping state as “the origin of all things” wherein it continues dreaming reality free from separation and convergence.

Conclusions:

Astral World -> CM Type 1 and 1 Layer into Low 1-A
Symbolism/Sefirot: 1-A -> 1 Layer into Low 1-A
Awakened OC -> 1 Layer into Low 1-A
Sleeping OC -> Remains 1-A as it R>Fs the entire metaphysical structure of LOTM whilst dreaming it up

Votes: DarkDragonMedeus (Agree)

Disagree with the downgrade, nitpicking issues that don’t really exist. Morora is in the stomach of Herabergen, so it can be assumed this god enables them to enter. Characters can enter bia their mcfs which are literally stated to be abstract symbols and concepts. The fact spirit world beings cannot enter the astral world also supports a change in ontology between spirit world symbols and astral world symbols which erases most of the issues.
Lowk transfer the upgrades from psw to here and upscale it all cause this is

 

[SuperNova55555]

Disagree with the downgrade, nitpicking issues that don’t really exist. Morora is in the stomach of Herabergen, so it can be assumed this god enables them to enter. Characters can enter bia their mcfs which are literally stated to be abstract symbols and concepts. The fact spirit world beings cannot enter the astral world also supports a change in ontology between spirit world symbols and astral world symbols which erases most of the issues.
Lowk transfer the upgrades from psw to here and upscale it all cause this is

Nobody’s saying that to truly enter the Astral World you don’t need to change your ontology into conceptual, but it’s the fact that it exists as a subspace connected to the physical world is the problem. Because just like how Klein grafted Hornacis Mountain Range to the Astral World, you can make it so physical worlds are connected to the Astral World without a change in ontology, which can only mean that the physical worlds’ qualities don’t inherently forsake a connection between the two realms which would disqualify 1-A.

 

[Verezen]

Nobody’s saying that to truly enter the Astral World you don’t need to change your ontology into conceptual, but it’s the fact that it exists as a subspace connected to the physical world is the problem. Because just like how Klein grafted Hornacis Mountain Range to the Astral World, you can make it so physical worlds are connected to the Astral World without a change in ontology, which can only mean that the physical worlds’ qualities don’t inherently forsake a connection between the two realms which would disqualify 1-A.

This is just 1A hax pulling 1A shenanigans
Im pretty sure 1A characters can bring a space into a 1A realm. Both feats were achieved via authorities and godhood which scales to the astral world alr (and godhood scales to the OC)

 

[SuperNova55555]

This is just 1A hax pulling 1A shenanigans
Im pretty sure 1A characters can bring a space into a 1A realm. Both feats were achieved via authorities and godhood which scales to the astral world alr (and godhood scales to the OC)

My issue specifically is on the qualitative part because any time that a character enters the Astral World, they’re always described as becoming conceptual, but Morora is seemingly never changing it’s ontology from physicality which just implies it remains the same. And characters from Morora can’t even access the Astral World so…

 

[Shiedaisthepeak]

Seems fine tbh

 

[SuperNova55555]

Bump

 

[LOTM_Historian]

My issue specifically is on the qualitative part because any time that a character enters the Astral World, they’re always described as becoming conceptual, but Morora is seemingly never changing it’s ontology from physicality which just implies it remains the same. And characters from Morora can’t even access the Astral World so…

The author stated that space doesn’t actually exist in the astral world, only the concepts and symbolism of space do.


So I don’t see why Morora or anything else in the astral world would be physical. Sure, sometimes it isnt explicitly stated like with this case, but would the author really need to clarify that the ontology changes every single time something enters the astral world? For example, it never specifically mentions that Klein’s clothes or cane become conceptual either, does that count as a debunk too? I think you’re just nitpicking tbh.

 

[SuperNova55555]

The author stated that space doesn’t actually exist in the astral world, only the concepts and symbolism of space do.


So I don’t see why Morora or anything else in the astral world would be physical. Sure, sometimes it isnt explicitly stated like with this case, but would the author really need to clarify that the ontology changes every single time something enters the astral world? For example, it never specifically mentions that Klein’s clothes or cane become conceptual either, does that count as a debunk too? I think you’re just nitpicking tbh.

This is why I said subspace specifically. Morora can exist within the same ontological layer whilst being still a lower dimension, like how a proper class contains the smaller sets.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

This is why I said subspace specifically. Morora can exist within the same ontological layer whilst being still a lower dimension, like how a proper class contains the smaller sets.

Huh? What is this headcanon?

This has never been a thing, do u have scans for it being “lower dimensional” or something compared to the astral world?