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The OP asked me to ping some folks to evaluate this: @Duedate8898 @Theglassman12 @Vietthai96 @LordTracer @Qawsedf234
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Bleach God Tier Calc Update
- Thread starter Ghostimuscrime
- Start date
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- bleach
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Anyway for anyone interested in ACTUAL arguments.
The novel says Gremmy materialised outer space within the seretei, and materialising it is like an umbrella term can mean creation but mainly refers to how you materialise and manifest things / make them reality. The definition of "materialize" to make something appear not just creation.
A dimension’s creation wouldn’t be necessary based on description of events as you can materialise / manifest outer space within the seretei by opening a portal and that gives you the exact same as what has been stated, as we know it’s not stated to be a dimension nor is it like the three worlds where Sekai is consistently used which might have helped this interpretation but it just says outer-space so if you had made a portal you would have achieved everything the text says you would and still be “within the seretei” hence not contradicting anything in the event descriptions which means
Lastly and imo most importantly, even if we assume Gremmy created outer space, that doesn't actually mean everything we see in that portal is made by Gremmy. The only way that would be actually true is if Gremmy created a completely spatially separate dimension from which nothing outside can be seen - something that there's no evidence for. Meaning it's absolutely possible that the stars while visible from Gremmy's space, aren't actually a part of what he created and are just visible from the the space he created as that space itself coexist within the same universe. Same way stars aren't a part of earth just because you can see them from earth, the stars visible from Gremmy's space don't have to be a part of said space.
These interpretations are a billion (literally) times more logical because again, Gremmy's goal was to suffocate Kenny which can easily be achieved with almost ANY amount of outer space and doing so by creating thousands of light years worth of stars and space would be like trying to light a cigarette using a collapsing star. These interpretations still fit the description without forcing the absurd claim that Gremmy created a trillion stars just to throw Kenpachi light years away from them.
TL;DR:
There's 3 way more logically options here.
A) The outlier is caused by the fact that the feat is purely hax that has nothing to actually do with Gremmy's power, and powerscalers trying to force his hax to somehow reflect power.
B) Gremmy doesn't actually create anything as "materialize" or "manifest" just means to make something appear and not to create something out of nothing.
C) Even if we interpret it as Gremmy creating space, it doesn't prove the stars visible from that space are a part of what Gremmy himself created as nothing ever said that Gremmy's outer space is a completely new spatially separate dimension.
The novel says Gremmy materialised outer space within the seretei, and materialising it is like an umbrella term can mean creation but mainly refers to how you materialise and manifest things / make them reality. The definition of "materialize" to make something appear not just creation.
A dimension’s creation wouldn’t be necessary based on description of events as you can materialise / manifest outer space within the seretei by opening a portal and that gives you the exact same as what has been stated, as we know it’s not stated to be a dimension nor is it like the three worlds where Sekai is consistently used which might have helped this interpretation but it just says outer-space so if you had made a portal you would have achieved everything the text says you would and still be “within the seretei” hence not contradicting anything in the event descriptions which means
Lastly and imo most importantly, even if we assume Gremmy created outer space, that doesn't actually mean everything we see in that portal is made by Gremmy. The only way that would be actually true is if Gremmy created a completely spatially separate dimension from which nothing outside can be seen - something that there's no evidence for. Meaning it's absolutely possible that the stars while visible from Gremmy's space, aren't actually a part of what he created and are just visible from the the space he created as that space itself coexist within the same universe. Same way stars aren't a part of earth just because you can see them from earth, the stars visible from Gremmy's space don't have to be a part of said space.
These interpretations are a billion (literally) times more logical because again, Gremmy's goal was to suffocate Kenny which can easily be achieved with almost ANY amount of outer space and doing so by creating thousands of light years worth of stars and space would be like trying to light a cigarette using a collapsing star. These interpretations still fit the description without forcing the absurd claim that Gremmy created a trillion stars just to throw Kenpachi light years away from them.
TL;DR:
There's 3 way more logically options here.
A) The outlier is caused by the fact that the feat is purely hax that has nothing to actually do with Gremmy's power, and powerscalers trying to force his hax to somehow reflect power.
B) Gremmy doesn't actually create anything as "materialize" or "manifest" just means to make something appear and not to create something out of nothing.
C) Even if we interpret it as Gremmy creating space, it doesn't prove the stars visible from that space are a part of what Gremmy himself created as nothing ever said that Gremmy's outer space is a completely new spatially separate dimension.
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Amazing, it is apparently more likely Gremmy spawns pre-existing things not create them.
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Cool, then don't respond.
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Yeah, remove the calc because
1. The jump is too big
2. Create outer space doesn't mean you also create stuff in it, empty space creation or empty pocket dimension creation is a thing
3. Pure hax ability that scale to nowhere even if taken as fave value
Also David is right, too many way to interpreting the feats, dismissing other ways to interpreting the feat isn't right
1. The jump is too big
2. Create outer space doesn't mean you also create stuff in it, empty space creation or empty pocket dimension creation is a thing
3. Pure hax ability that scale to nowhere even if taken as fave value
Also David is right, too many way to interpreting the feats, dismissing other ways to interpreting the feat isn't right
Qurbonboev
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How many staff votes this CRT needs? We already have 2 on removing feat
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It needs 3.
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My view of the scene is more along the lines of:
- Gremmy needs power to imagine things, since his strength still comes from his Reiryoku
- Our creation page notes that creation can scale with AP with a UES
- Gremmy can imagine Zaraki's power but suffers from OG Bankai Ichigo's issue of not being durable enough to withstand that level of output
It is, however, vastly superior to everything and performed by a significantly weaker character, which is more of the issue in my mind. I know with other franchises where you have an AP disconnect of such a degree, they sometimes include a possibly rating for the higher value. Which could be the case here.
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His creation comes from his hax. And hax abilities do not require equivalent energy to use. That makes it not comparable.
Normally: UES energy --> Creation
Gremmy: UES energy -->Hax --> Creation
Ghostimuscrime
He/Him- 3,678
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- Thread starter
- #51
Mind clarifying if i should count you as a yes or a no or a possibly?
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His creation comes from Reiryoku, which is used for all abilities in Bleach. This is discussed on the Creation Page
4-B, possibly 4-A due to the outlier-ish nature of Gremmy's showing
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1. As I said his creation comes from hax which comes from reiryoku. The problem is that hax abilities need to be proven to use same amount of energy. Because for hax abilities, that is not the default assumption.
Normally: UES energy ----same amount of energy----> Creation
Gremmy: UES energy(reiryoku) ----unknown amount of energy----> Hax -----unknown amount of energy-----> Creation
2. Since Reiryoku is UES, Gremmy should have been able to handle that amount energy. UES page requires that. But when he directed that amount of energy to himself, he could not handle it. Meaning his hax ability is not fit for UES. Because as I said we don't know how much energy his hax uses. And it likely uses less energy considering Gremmy's body can not handle that amount energy.
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Except that’s not Gremmy’s feat? His Galaxy room has stars in the background. It’s not just an empty vacuum. The Author even draws a visual of what the character was imagining with pictures of planets and etc in his mind. So it’s not just empty space.
Creation in general is hax last I check and it’s the reason we have an entire page dedicated to these feats to gauge wether they scale or not.
He quite literally created 6ish duplicates of himself to perform the feat.
You can make this argument to disregard any of his feats since they all come from the same ability…
If it has zero foundation it can be disregarded. One of his interpretation’s suggests the character that creates stuff from thoughts is summoning pre-existing things instead as opposed to outright creating them.
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His hax output is shown to be worse than Kenpachi's body and for Yhwach's strength. Meaning that both contain more energy than what he can either imagine or what his own body can handle with reiryoku
It is. In Bleach having to much power in comparison to physical strength causes your body to destroy itself. Gremmy replicated Kenpachi's power, but his body could not handle the feedback. Kenpachi's body can handle his power and Yhwach is above Gremmy, so both would scale IMO.
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From UES page: They have to demonstrate that they can channel their power through their own bodies in a way that quantifiably enhances them or otherwise allows scaling of their supernatural powers through their physicals.
His body cannot handle the same amount of energy his body produces. He can not channel that amount of energy through his body without dying. It literally goes against UES page. So while reiryoku is UES, Gremmy's hax ability cannot be UES.
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I agree with this.
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re-reading again, I'm fine with Qaw's opinion.
Ghostimuscrime
He/Him- 3,678
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- Thread starter
- #59
Looks like there's 3 votes (majority) for a possibly rating and one vote for total removal
Damage, would you be fine with a possibly?
Damage, would you be fine with a possibly?
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I agree with changing it to a possibly rating.
ItsMeat
He/Him- 662
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Also, about what @DavidTPPM said regarding how the novels describe the feat, they say "create" not "materialise"
I don't think he intended to spread missinformation, I rather think he merely didn't remember it well. So yeah, that is invalid
I don't think he intended to spread missinformation, I rather think he merely didn't remember it well. So yeah, that is invalid
Ghostimuscrime
He/Him- 3,678
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- Thread starter
- #62
tbf in some other statements they do say materialize
Anyways since we have unanimous agreement between 4 different staff, I'll start applying the changes, the thread can stay open for longer periods just to be safe
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Some profiles are locked, so you'll have to ask for those to be opened anyways.
To be clear, the agreed scaling is 4-B, possibly 4-A, so that's what's happening right?
To be clear, the agreed scaling is 4-B, possibly 4-A, so that's what's happening right?
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Don't you have to wait for Grace period to end, before even applying the changes
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I think we hit grace about 10 min ago
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Technically 48 hours since the thread's creation passed just a few minutes ago.
ItsMeat
He/Him- 662
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Interesting and fair point ig. Are we allowed to use ai to translate certain words and human translators are only required for greater sections of raws? Never knew about this.
Ghostimuscrime
He/Him- 3,678
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- Thread starter
- #68
I was told by Agna that it's fine to use the dictionary/jisho to look up an individual word but a sentence or anything more would require an expert's opinion
Ghostimuscrime
He/Him- 3,678
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- Thread starter
- #69
Damage would you mind unlocking these
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These are on the web (and apparently wonderweiss was on the web), but just to make sure, these people are also affected
vsbattles.fandom.com
vsbattles.fandom.com
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vsbattles.fandom.com
Also just noticed Jugram is on there, take him off, he's not scaling yet.
Quilge Opie
Quilge Opie (キルゲ・オピー, Kiruge Opī?) is the "Executive Hunting Captain" (統とう括かつ狩しゅ猟りょう隊たい長ちょう, Tōkatsu Shuryō Taichō?) of the first Jagdarmee of the Wandenreich. He is also a member of the Sternritter with the designation "J" - "The Jail", and is known as Quilge Opie of "the Jail"...
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Royd Lloyd
Royd Lloyd ("Rの" ロイド・ロイド, Roido Roido) is a Quincy and a member of the Wandenreich's Sternritter with the designation "Y" - "The Yourself". He is the identical twin brother of Loyd Lloyd. Tier: Varies, up to at least 5-C, possibly 4-A, Low 5-B, possibly 4-A with Blut Arterie Name: Royd Lloyd...
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Shigekuni Yamamoto Genryusai
Genryūsai Shigekuni Yamamoto (山やま本もと 元げん柳りゅう斎さい 重しげ國くに, Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni?) was the captain of the Gotei 13's 1st Division and the most powerful Shinigami within Soul Society. Venerated for his power, skill, and wisdom, his word was the ultimate letter of the law in Soul Society...
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Gremmy Thoumeaux
Gremmy Thoumeaux (グレミィ・トゥミュー, Guremī Tumyū?) is a Quincy and a member of the Wandenreich's Sternritter with the designation "V" - "The Visionary". In Can't Fear Your Own World, he is heavily implied to be the Brain of the Soul King. Tier: High 6-A, up to Low 5-B, possibly 4-A with The Visionary...
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Retsu Unohana
Retsu Unohana (卯ノ花 烈, Unohana Retsu), formerly known as Yachiru Unohana (卯ノ花 八千流, Unohana Yachiru), was the captain of the Fourth Division in the Gotei 13. She was one of the oldest and most experienced captains, and was the Soul Society's best healer, as well as the first person to wield the...
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Tōshirō Hitsugaya
Toshiro Hitsugaya (日ひ番つが谷や 冬とう獅し郎ろう, Hitsugaya Tōshirō?) is the captain of the 10th Division in the Gotei 13. His lieutenant is Rangiku Matsumoto. He formerly served as the 3rd Seat of the 10th Division under Isshin Shiba. Tier: At most 6-B | At most 6-B, likely High 6-B with Sennen Hyoro | 6-B...
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Gerard Valkyrie
Gerard Valkyrie (ジェラルド・ヴァルキリー, Jerarudo Varukirī?) is a Quincy and a member of the Wandenreich's Sternritter with the designation "M" - The Miracle, as well as one of Yhwach's Schutzstaffel (親衛隊シュッツシュタッフェル, Shuttsushutafferu?, German for "Protective Echelon", Japanese for "Elite/Imperial...
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Can you make a list of just the ones that are locked?
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Ichibē Hyōsube
Ichibe Hyosube (兵ひょう主す部べ 一いち兵べ衛え, Hyōsube Ichibē?) is the leader of the Royal Guard, known as the Monk who Calls the Real Name (真ま名な呼こ和お尚しょう, Manako Oshō?) thanks to his ability to identify the true names of any being. It was he who named all things in the Soul Society, including Zanpakuto...
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Ichigo Kurosaki (Post-Timeskip)
Ichigo Kurosaki (黒崎くろさき 一いち護ご, Kurosaki Ichigo?) is the son of Masaki Kurosaki and Isshin Kurosaki, a Quincy with the powers of a Soul Reaper. Years after the death of his mother, Ichigo uses his innate spiritual awareness to help local ghosts, and unlocks his potential as a Soul Reaper when...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Ichigo Kurosaki (Pre-Timeskip)
Ichigo Kurosaki (黒崎くろさき 一いち護ご, Kurosaki Ichigo?) is the son of Masaki and Isshin Kurosaki, a Quincy with the powers of a Soul Reaper. Years after the death of his mother, Ichigo uses his innate spiritual awareness to help local ghosts, and unlocks his potential as a Soul Reaper when Rukia...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Sosuke Aizen
Sosuke Aizen (藍染あいぜん 惣そう右介すけ, Aizen Sōsuke?) is the former captain of the 5th Division in the Gotei 13. He later leaves Soul Society with his followers, Gin Ichimaru and Kaname Tosen. His lieutenant was Momo Hinamori. He formerly served as the lieutenant of the 5th Division under Shinji Hirako...
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Yhwach
Yhwach (ユーハバッハ, Yūhabahha?) is the Father of the Quincy, the monarch of the Wandenreich, and the son of the Soul King, known by the designation "A" - The Almighty. As a baby, Yhwach was incapable of sight, speech, or even the slightest movement, but never feared or despaired, as he knew he would...
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I've made this here
- Characters that are 4-A (126.6 PetaFoe) are now 4-B (75.75 MegaFoe), possibly 4-A (126.6 PetaFoe)
- Characters that are 4-A (1.266 ExaFoe) are now 4-B (757.5 MegaFoe), possibly 4-A (1.266 ExaFoe)
- Characters that are 4-A (1.688 ExaFoe) are now 4-B (1.01 GigaFoe), possibly 4-A (1.688 ExaFoe)
- Characters that are 4-A (8.44 ExaFoe) are now 4-B (5.05 GigaFoe), possibly 4-A (8.44 ExaFoe)
- Characters that are 4-A (12.66 ExaFoe) are now 4-B (7.575 GigaFoe), possibly 4-A (12.66 ExaFoe)
- Characters that are 4-A (16.88 ExaFoe) are now 4-B (10.1 GigaFoe), possibly 4-A (16.88 ExaFoe)
- Characters that are 4-A (460.3481 Exafoe) are now 4-B (1.01 GigaFoe), possibly 4-A (1.688 ExaFoe)
- Characters that are 4-A (1.381 Zettafoe) are now 4-B (3.03 GigaFoe), possibly 4-A (5.064 ExaFoe)
- Characters that are 4-A (4.6035 Zettafoe) are now 4-B (10.1 GigaFoe), possibly 4-A (16.88 ExaFoe)
- Characters that are 3-C (13.8104 Zettafoe) are now 4-B (30.3 GigaFoe), possibly 4-A (50.64 ExaFoe)
- Characters that are 3-C (46.0348 Zettafoe) are now 4-B (101 GigaFoe), possibly 4-A (168.8 ExaFoe)
- Characters that are 3-C (55.2418 ZettaFoe) are now 4-B (121.2 GigaFoe), possibly 4-A (202.56 ExaFoe)
- Characters that are 3-C (460.3481 Zettafoe) are now 4-B (1.01 TeraFoe), possibly 4-A (1.688 ZettaFoe)
- Characters that are 3-C+ (4.6035 Yottafoe) are now 4-B (10.1 TeraFoe), possibly 3-C (16.88 ZettaFoe)
- Characters that are 3-B (46.0348 Yottafoe) are now 4-A (101 TeraFoe), possibly 3-C (168.8 ZettaFoe)
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Ghostimuscrime
He/Him- 3,678
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- Thread starter
- #74
you forgot YhwachIchibē Hyōsube
Ichibe Hyosube (兵ひょう主す部べ 一いち兵べ衛え, Hyōsube Ichibē?) is the leader of the Royal Guard, known as the Monk who Calls the Real Name (真ま名な呼こ和お尚しょう, Manako Oshō?) thanks to his ability to identify the true names of any being. It was he who named all things in the Soul Society, including Zanpakuto...Ichigo Kurosaki (Post-Timeskip)
Ichigo Kurosaki (黒崎くろさき 一いち護ご, Kurosaki Ichigo?) is the son of Masaki Kurosaki and Isshin Kurosaki, a Quincy with the powers of a Soul Reaper. Years after the death of his mother, Ichigo uses his innate spiritual awareness to help local ghosts, and unlocks his potential as a Soul Reaper when...Ichigo Kurosaki (Pre-Timeskip)
Ichigo Kurosaki (黒崎くろさき 一いち護ご, Kurosaki Ichigo?) is the son of Masaki and Isshin Kurosaki, a Quincy with the powers of a Soul Reaper. Years after the death of his mother, Ichigo uses his innate spiritual awareness to help local ghosts, and unlocks his potential as a Soul Reaper when Rukia...Sosuke Aizen
Sosuke Aizen (藍染あいぜん 惣そう右介すけ, Aizen Sōsuke?) is the former captain of the 5th Division in the Gotei 13. He later leaves Soul Society with his followers, Gin Ichimaru and Kaname Tosen. His lieutenant was Momo Hinamori. He formerly served as the lieutenant of the 5th Division under Shinji Hirako...
this makes things much easier thank you
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I've unlocked them.
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You saw nothing
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Will the characters that currently only scale to Gremmy's creation feat but not to Shutara's feat have 4-B, possibly 4-A or another rating that isn't 4-B along with the possibly 4-A?
ItsMeat
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Time to sneak Tier 0, Omnipotence, Omnipresence and Omniscience on Aizen's page
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Soul King
Adnyeus (アドナイェウス, Adonayeusu?), more commonly known as the Soul King (霊れい王おう, Reiō?), is the king of Soul Society, whose existence in Soul Society is as symbolic as it is absolute. The king resides in the Soul King Palace that exists in a separate, special realm in the very core of Soul Society...
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Why does his prime key have 4-B?I fixed Soul King, but it looks really weird. Is this fine lolSoul King
Adnyeus (アドナイェウス, Adonayeusu?), more commonly known as the Soul King (霊れい王おう, Reiō?), is the king of Soul Society, whose existence in Soul Society is as symbolic as it is absolute. The king resides in the Soul King Palace that exists in a separate, special realm in the very core of Soul Society...
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