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Murder Drones CRT: Black Hole Calculation Removal

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FreezerMonkey said:
This is a contradiction. Let me explain

A singularity is a theoretical point of infinite density where our current understanding of physics ends(will note that the laws of physics don't really "break" in a singularity". The big crunch is not a singularity. It's a cosmological theory where the expansion of the universes slows, and eventually reverses, collapsing everything into a singularity again. So while it ends in a singularity, it itself is not a singulariity. They're different stages of the story. So the nulls cannot be both a singularity and the big crunch simultaenously, though I'll note, based on the definition I gave, they're not big crunches anyway
Click to expand...
So, according to your definitions, yes, you’re right, in fact, the definition I gave is basically a simplified version of what you just said, and I agree with you on that.
However, it’s also important to understand the broader meaning of the term itself: a singularity is described as an anomaly in spacetime, which means the term is extremely vague by definition.
For example, gravitational anomalies are singularities, a black hole is a singularity, and both the Big Bang and the Big Crunch lead to singularities.

The only point where it really drifts into science fiction is when I mention a local Big Crunch. What I mean by that is a collapse of reality and an assimilation by the Absolute Solver.
That’s what’s described in the series, the assimilation happens, and will happen, through the Null, which is portrayed as functioning similarly to a Big Crunch. Both concepts involve the collapse of reality to give birth to something new.

In the scientific Big Crunch, the one you’re defining, and in the one from Murder Drones, both represent an implosion of existence followed by a form of assimilation, similar to the rebirth principle of the Big Bang.
Of course, the Big Crunch in Murder Drones doesn’t work exactly like the real-world one, but that’s fine, because the core principles remain the same.

It even ties back to gravitational waves, since both the Big Crunch and the Big Bang produce them.
In fact, the Null is also conceptually linked to Einstein’s equations on the infinite expansion of the universe, which are the same equations used to calculate the conditions for a potential Big Crunch.

So, to sum it up, the two are very similar, they both destroy reality to create a kind of assimilation.
In the Solver’s case, it’s about becoming one with the universe, while in the Big Crunch’s case, it’s about giving birth to a new universe.
They represent the same idea, except that in Murder Drones, the Big Crunch happens through the expansion of the Null into the universe, whereas in our real-world version, the universe collapses into it.
The outcome is also different: the real Big Crunch gives rise to a new world, while in Murder Drones, it allows the Solver to become the universe.
In short, even in their contradictions, they’re fundamentally similar.
 
Kirua29 said:
So, according to your definitions, yes, you’re right, in fact, the definition I gave is basically a simplified version of what you just said, and I agree with you on that.
However, it’s also important to understand the broader meaning of the term itself: a singularity is described as an anomaly in spacetime, which means the term is extremely vague by definition.
For example, gravitational anomalies are singularities, a black hole is a singularity, and both the Big Bang and the Big Crunch lead to singularities.

The only point where it really drifts into science fiction is when I mention a local Big Crunch. What I mean by that is a collapse of reality and an assimilation by the Absolute Solver.
That’s what’s described in the series, the assimilation happens, and will happen, through the Null, which is portrayed as functioning similarly to a Big Crunch. Both concepts involve the collapse of reality to give birth to something new.

In the scientific Big Crunch, the one you’re defining, and in the one from Murder Drones, both represent an implosion of existence followed by a form of assimilation, similar to the rebirth principle of the Big Bang.
Of course, the Big Crunch in Murder Drones doesn’t work exactly like the real-world one, but that’s fine, because the core principles remain the same.

It even ties back to gravitational waves, since both the Big Crunch and the Big Bang produce them.
In fact, the Null is also conceptually linked to Einstein’s equations on the infinite expansion of the universe, which are the same equations used to calculate the conditions for a potential Big Crunch.

So, to sum it up, the two are very similar, they both destroy reality to create a kind of assimilation.
In the Solver’s case, it’s about becoming one with the universe, while in the Big Crunch’s case, it’s about giving birth to a new universe.
They represent the same idea, except that in Murder Drones, the Big Crunch happens through the expansion of the Null into the universe, whereas in our real-world version, the universe collapses into it.
The outcome is also different: the real Big Crunch gives rise to a new world, while in Murder Drones, it allows the Solver to become the universe.
In short, even in their contradictions, they’re fundamentally similar.
Click to expand...
That's... not the definition of a singularity at all, and far too broad. A singularity is an infinitely dense point in space-time where the known laws of physics stop giving anything meaningful back. So my point stands. A null cannot be both at the same time, and by definition is not a "big crunch" anyway.
 
FreezerMonkey said:
That's... not the definition of a singularity at all, and far too broad. A singularity is an infinitely dense point in space-time where the known laws of physics stop giving anything meaningful back. So my point stands. A null cannot be both at the same time, and by definition is not a "big crunch" anyway.
Click to expand...
It’s not a definition I gave you, it’s an explanation of what a singularity is.
The definition : A singularity is a point in spacetime where certain physical quantities (such as density or spacetime curvature) become infinite, and where the known laws of physics stop being valid.

In other words:
It’s a mathematical anomaly in the equations of general relativity.
Spacetime is so extremely curved there that our current physical models can no longer describe what’s happening.

So yes, it is an anomaly. I even gave examples, like gravitational anomalies, which are classified as singularities.
That means everything I said is valid, both scientifically and within the lore. Both are connected to singularities.
 
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Honestly I don't think this debate is really gonna end up anywhere, you have official statements and implications of them being black holes, and certain situations where they act like them and some where they dont. Though you can make a case for their information manip being able to manipulate reality like code that it can just control nulls to be confined in other ways such as like the disks or with the massive controlled tentacles.

Atp I'd leave it to the mods to determine if they are worthy of being calced as black holes under wikistandards or not.
 
Kirua29 said:
It’s not a definition I gave you, it’s an explanation of what a singularity is.
The definition : A singularity is a point in spacetime where certain physical quantities (such as density or spacetime curvature) become infinite, and where the known laws of physics stop being valid.

In other words:
It’s a mathematical anomaly in the equations of general relativity.
Spacetime is so extremely curved there that our current physical models can no longer describe what’s happening.

So yes, it is an anomaly. I even gave examples, like gravitational anomalies, which are classified as singularities.
That means everything I said is valid, both scientifically and within the lore. Both are connected to singularities.
Click to expand...
You wrongly explained what a singularity is. A singularity is definitionally an infinitely dense point in space-time where the known laws of physics stop holding sway to a degree. The big crunch is not a singularity. It's a different part of the story. And "gravitational anomaly" could mean a lot of things, not just singularities.
 
FreezerMonkey said:
You wrongly explained what a singularity is. A singularity is definitionally an infinitely dense point in space-time where the known laws of physics stop holding sway to a degree. The big crunch is not a singularity. It's a different part of the story. And "gravitational anomaly" could mean a lot of things, not just singularities.
Click to expand...
I think there’s a misunderstanding here. I wasn’t trying to redefine what a singularity is, I literally used the same definition you just repeated.

My point was about application, not definition: in the context of Murder Drones, the Null functions as a fictional analogue of a cosmological collapse that culminates in a singularity.

So when the lore calls it a “Big Crunch,” it’s describing the end result of that collapse, the same kind of spacetime breakdown we’d call a singularity in physics.

You’re focusing on the textbook semantics, but my argument was about the conceptual and narrative equivalence between both phenomena. That’s the core of what I’m saying.
 
Kirua29 said:
I think there’s a misunderstanding here. I wasn’t trying to redefine what a singularity is, I literally used the same definition you just repeated.

My point was about application, not definition: in the context of Murder Drones, the Null functions as a fictional analogue of a cosmological collapse that culminates in a singularity.

So when the lore calls it a “Big Crunch,” it’s describing the end result of that collapse, the same kind of spacetime breakdown we’d call a singularity in physics.

You’re focusing on the textbook semantics, but my argument was about the conceptual and narrative equivalence between both phenomena. That’s the core of what I’m saying.
Click to expand...
You used a similiar definition but left out half of what I said. And your description of the nulls backtracks from your previous definition of them being singularities. I will also note that, by definition, nulls aren't "big crunches", unless you wanna argue that a null is creating an entirely new universe, then speeding up its collapse into a singularity.
 
FreezerMonkey said:
You used a similiar definition but left out half of what I said. And your description of the nulls backtracks from your previous definition of them being singularities. I will also note that, by definition, nulls aren't "big crunches", unless you wanna argue that a null is creating an entirely new universe, then speeding up its collapse into a singularity.
Click to expand...
You know what, let’s make it simple. For you, yes or no: is the Null a singularity? I’m not talking about the Big Crunch right now.
 
I tried to contact them directly over on Discord, but it doesn't seem like we had any luck. If it stays that way, then this thread can just die.
 
Kirua29 said:
You know what, let’s make it simple. For you, yes or no: is the Null a singularity? I’m not talking about the Big Crunch right now.
Click to expand...
Whether I think it's a singularity or not is irrelevant to the point I'm making, that point being that it just can't be a "big crunch" unless it's doing some weird, far fetched stuff.
 
FreezerMonkey said:
Whether I think it's a singularity or not is irrelevant to the point I'm making, that point being that it just can't be a "big crunch" unless it's doing some weird, far fetched stuff.
Click to expand...
You didn't answer my question, it's important, it's to know if I should include that in my long reasoned answer that I'm going to make.
 
Kirua29 said:
You didn't answer my question, it's important, it's to know if I should include that in my long reasoned answer that I'm going to make.
Click to expand...
I didn't answer your question because the question is irrelevant to the point I was making
 
FreezerMonkey said:
I didn't answer your question because the question is irrelevant to the point I was making
Click to expand...
Alright, since you refuse to answer, I’ll assume the answer is no.


Let’s start by defining what the Null is. There are several schools of thought: some believe it’s a black hole, others think it’s a Big Crunch, some say it’s absolute nothingness, and others think it’s an antimatter zone.

First of all, we know that the Null produces gravitational waves, and it’s defined both in the series and outside of it as a singularity.

A singularity is a point in spacetime where certain physical quantities, such as density or spacetime curvature, become infinite, and where the known laws of physics stop being valid.​



So it’s a kind of anomaly in our spacetime, something current science cannot explain, which means the Null is a singularity.
It produces gravitational waves, while absolute nothingness and antimatter do not, so it can’t be either of those.


A black hole, on the other hand, is supposed to absorb matter, and a black hole of that size would immediately destroy the planet, so it can’t be a black hole either.
By process of elimination, we’re left with one possibility: the Big Crunch, which also appears as an Easter egg in the series.


A Big Crunch is a cosmological theory that describes a possible end of the universe. If gravity eventually dominates, the expansion of the universe would slow down, stop, and then reverse.​

Galaxies would begin to move closer together, stars would collide, matter would condense again, and the entire universe would collapse back onto itself, becoming an extremely dense and hot point, a final singularity symmetrical to the Big Bang.​



Now, the Null in all of this represents the collapse of reality and its assimilation by the Absolute Solver. This is exactly what’s described in the series: assimilation happens, and will happen, through the Null, which behaves similarly to a Big Crunch.
Both concepts involve the collapse of reality leading to the birth of something new. A new universe in both cases, in a way, because we know that the Solver’s goal is to become the universe itself, and therefore it would become that singularity.


In both the scientific Big Crunch and the one in Murder Drones, they symbolize an implosion of existence followed by a form of assimilation, much like the rebirth principle of the Big Bang. The fundamental underlying principles remain the same.


The Absolute Solver is tied to Albert Einstein’s equations, the fundamental form of general relativity used to describe the curvature of spacetime.
If these equations are solved under certain conditions, such as negative energy density or reversed expansion, they can lead to models of a Big Crunch or cosmological collapse.


Therefore, it’s clearly a reference to gravitational or universal destruction on a massive scale, and this is confirmed by all the other Easter eggs, which, let’s remember, are canonical. Like what the solver say, what cyn say.

Conclusion

The Null is a local Big Crunch that causes collapses of reality, and in 87 days it can make the world and reality collapse, in order to then create a new universe where it becomes that universe, meaning the universe itself would become a part of the Solver.
So, if the Null is a Big Crunch, the calculations used for black holes are the same as those for the final singularity of the Big Crunch, and the Null is precisely the result of that local collapse. The Null is an area where nothing exists, not even reality itself.
 
Last edited:
yall aruging basically the same points, isnt going to likely encourage staff to evaluate the thread.
 
Yeah. I recommend just moving on from here, just let the thread necro since all that needs to be said has been said. Surely there is something more important to do with Murder Drones.
 
Honestly the scaling on this website is kind of a shitshow as it is now, but I don't really care enough to look into the threads behind it.
 
Yeah, anyway, I'm done debating here. My last message was just a recontextualization of everything I said before kind of like a big summary.
 
policy is to generally list stuff as unknown rather then keep what is seen as incorrect scalings which is what got removed in the previous CRT.
 
Kirua29 said:
Alright, since you refuse to answer, I’ll assume the answer is no.


Let’s start by defining what the Null is. There are several schools of thought: some believe it’s a black hole, others think it’s a Big Crunch, some say it’s absolute nothingness, and others think it’s an antimatter zone.

First of all, we know that the Null produces gravitational waves, and it’s defined both in the series and outside of it as a singularity.

A singularity is a point in spacetime where certain physical quantities, such as density or spacetime curvature, become infinite, and where the known laws of physics stop being valid.​



So it’s a kind of anomaly in our spacetime, something current science cannot explain, which means the Null is a singularity.
It produces gravitational waves, while absolute nothingness and antimatter do not, so it can’t be either of those.


A black hole, on the other hand, is supposed to absorb matter, and a black hole of that size would immediately destroy the planet, so it can’t be a black hole either.
By process of elimination, we’re left with one possibility: the Big Crunch, which also appears as an Easter egg in the series.


A Big Crunch is a cosmological theory that describes a possible end of the universe. If gravity eventually dominates, the expansion of the universe would slow down, stop, and then reverse.​

Galaxies would begin to move closer together, stars would collide, matter would condense again, and the entire universe would collapse back onto itself, becoming an extremely dense and hot point, a final singularity symmetrical to the Big Bang.​



Now, the Null in all of this represents the collapse of reality and its assimilation by the Absolute Solver. This is exactly what’s described in the series: assimilation happens, and will happen, through the Null, which behaves similarly to a Big Crunch.
Both concepts involve the collapse of reality leading to the birth of something new. A new universe in both cases, in a way, because we know that the Solver’s goal is to become the universe itself, and therefore it would become that singularity.


In both the scientific Big Crunch and the one in Murder Drones, they symbolize an implosion of existence followed by a form of assimilation, much like the rebirth principle of the Big Bang. The fundamental underlying principles remain the same.


The Absolute Solver is tied to Albert Einstein’s equations, the fundamental form of general relativity used to describe the curvature of spacetime.
If these equations are solved under certain conditions, such as negative energy density or reversed expansion, they can lead to models of a Big Crunch or cosmological collapse.


Therefore, it’s clearly a reference to gravitational or universal destruction on a massive scale, and this is confirmed by all the other Easter eggs, which, let’s remember, are canonical. Like what the solver say, what cyn say.

Conclusion

The Null is a local Big Crunch that causes collapses of reality, and in 87 days it can make the world and reality collapse, in order to then create a new universe where it becomes that universe, meaning the universe itself would become a part of the Solver.
So, if the Null is a Big Crunch, the calculations used for black holes are the same as those for the final singularity of the Big Crunch, and the Null is precisely the result of that local collapse. The Null is an area where nothing exists, not even reality itself.
Click to expand...
I refused to answer the question because it's irrelevant to my point. You are making points irrelevant to mine. Please track.

As for "87 days", not real. That 87 day thing didn't happen.

And you fail to understand what the big crunch is. The big crunch is a universal phenomenon, not a localized phenomenon.
 
Could someone provide of a summary of both sides, please?
 
FinePoint said:
Could someone provide of a summary of both sides, please?
Click to expand...
Basically, for the op, we shouldn't say that the null is a black hole, and the other side says that we should, since the null clearly shows gravitational attraction in certain episodes, but for the op, that's not it.
 
Kirua29 said:
Basically, for the op, we shouldn't say that the null is a black hole, and the other side says that we should, since the null clearly shows gravitational attraction in certain episodes, but for the op, that's not it.
Click to expand...
That's a terrible summary.

Are there reasons outside the OP they say it shouldn't be considered a black hole?
 
FinePoint said:
That's a terrible summary.

Are there reasons outside the OP they say it shouldn't be considered a black hole?
Click to expand...
sorry, I thought you had read the OP's thread, my bad.
The author argues that the Nulls created by the Absolute Solver in Murder Drones are not black holes, making black hole–based calculations invalid.

A Null with a radius of ~27 million meters would have a mass nearly 10,000 times that of the Sun, which should cause catastrophic gravitational effects. However, the Null repels matter, does not affect the Moon or the solar system, and nearby debris moves away from it.

Similarly, a Null with a radius of ~1.29 meters would have more mass than Saturn, yet shows no gravitational influence on its surroundings.

These feats directly contradict black hole behavior, so Nulls should not be treated as black holes in calculations.

---------------------------------------------------

The counter-argument claims that the Null’s gravitational attraction is optional and adjustable. In some scenes, gravitational attraction is shown, sometimes weak and sometimes strong, suggesting it can be controlled.

They also argue that, according to the lore and various easter eggs, the Null is explicitly described as a singularity, meaning a point where spacetime curvature becomes infinite and the known laws of physics break down. Another easter egg directly references Einstein’s general relativity, linking the Null to spacetime anomalies.

Based on this, they claim the Null is a spacetime anomaly capable of taking any form, including that of a black hole if it so chooses. Therefore, the “Big Null” that destroyed Earth could have exhibited black hole-like gravitational attraction if Cyn had wanted it to. Therefore, calculating the Null as a black hole is valid since it can take on all the characteristics of a black hole.

Make your choice.
 
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