(GRACE) Adding Pokemon Masters to the canon

[Jinx666]

To the ppl who just dont want to pick a side, Are we genuinely serious with making Masters EX content on mainline profiles as long as they arent 'contradicted'?

So we're just going to have a mix of Mainline profiles that CAN include Masters EX (a minority since regions are interconnected), while there are mainline profiles that CANT use it (even though Masters EX has those characters together in the same story?) Where the heck is the organisation
All the while you're gonna let Pazdera independently make the decision on what is secondary and what isnt, the guy whose now trying to claim Legends ZA isnt canon because he doesnt like it?

We're really canonising a game right as Legends ZA actively contradicts in itself too, as a proper 5-year sequel that i cant spoil.

I still don't recall any mods giving their thoughts on why this would be a superior option to just separating the Masters Ex content into a separate profile either. Why bother making a mess of the main profiles with pick and choosing instead of delegating it all into its own space? Especially when the premises in Masters EX all either involve its own interpretive choice of game versions, or they just use mons like Hoopa to create parallel versions of the characters (Which by this wiki's rule, deems them as separate and would require separate profiles anyway). Pokemon just hasn't caught up with the wiki's modern formatting.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

To the ppl who just dont want to pick a side, Are we genuinely serious with making Masters EX content on mainline profiles as long as they arent 'contradicted'?

So we're just going to have a mix of Mainline profiles that CAN include Masters EX (a minority since regions are interconnected), while there are mainline profiles that CANT use it (even though Masters EX has those characters together in the same story?) Where the heck is the organisation
All the while you're gonna let Pazdera independently make the decision on what is secondary and what isnt, the guy whose now trying to claim Legends ZA isnt canon because he doesnt like it?

We're really canonising a game right as Legends ZA actively contradicts in itself too, as a proper 5-year sequel that i cant spoil.

I still don't recall any mods giving their thoughts on why this would be a superior option to just separating the Masters Ex content into a separate profile either. Why bother making a mess of the main profiles with pick and choosing instead of delegating it all into its own space? Especially when the premises in Masters EX all either involve its own interpretive choice of game versions, or they just use mons like Hoopa to create parallel versions of the characters (Which by this wiki's rule, deems them as separate and would require separate profiles anyway). Pokemon just hasn't caught up with the wiki's modern formatting.

Appeal to Emotion and Appeal to Motive.

Also I literally told you 3 times that, since Juliana and Florian are literally different people, they would get different profiles.

 

[Jinx666]

Can you stop saying random words please? You're just turning it to Grace without realising that the most favoured outcome right now is still to make them into separate profiles?

Especially when it seems people are just voting 'im fine with either as a mix' despite that literally not working, since you'd then be having mainline profiles that follow separate canons from one another?

I didnt mention Juliana or Florian, but Masters EX shouldnt be the definitive canon way the games went just because they went for an interpretation. The other male/female protags before got a mix of the main character story beats as opposed to one just being the full on-protag. Most of the protag characters dont even co-exist canonically other than taking up a rival role thats interchangeable.
Mainline Profiles for the protags should just be labelled the Player if you want to composite them so much, while Masters EX versions can be named canon

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Can you stop saying random words please? You're just turning it to Grace without realising that the most favoured outcome right now is still to make them into separate profiles?

Points out fallacies you’re committing on the site

“Stop saying random words!!”

Dang you’re right, maybe I should just keep this CRT going despite 3 mods agreeing to it lol

Especially when it seems people are just voting 'im fine with either as a mix' despite that literally not working, since you'd then be having mainline profiles that follow separate canons from one another?

I thought you said they apparently all voted for you? And the main game timeline has 1 canon. Still. Because of the canon split being undone? Remember?

I didnt mention Juliana or Florian, but Masters EX shouldnt be the definitive canon way the games went just because they went for an interpretation. The other male/female protags before got a mix of the main character story beats as opposed to one just being the full on-protag. Most of the protag characters dont even co-exist canonically other than taking up a rival role thats interchangeable.
Mainline Profiles for the protags should just be labelled the Player if you want to composite them so much, while Masters EX versions can be named canon

I’m glad you said that!

“they just use mons like Hoopa to create parallel versions of the characters”

First off, you lied about how Hoopa works for some reason, but also the most directly stated and most important person to be brought into Pasio by Hoopa… was Florian.

Leaf and Crystal existed in canon without showing up in the games long before Masters showed up. Same with the Gen 5 characters.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This is blatantly wrong, and even further makes profiles contradict eachother. Espcially when Sean is going to be taking Masters EX over canon titles like Legends ZA now

Please dont tell me you're only chiming in with this to end it.

Secondary Canon is a section literally listed in our canon page. And you misunderstood by key phrases; "As long as the primary canon does not contradict it." Guidebooks are usable for indexing powers, abilities, or using calculation values if the primary canon doesn't really give us any statements or details. Lots of verses are like that where games give us a vague ending, but secondary canon sources such as guidebooks or official websites explain whether or not certain satellite weapons are capable of "Destroying entire planets" or whether a "Phenomenon that destroyed the universe and created a new one" or "Caused a cosmic inflation in space-time" have happened in the ending(s). It would be a different story if primary canon and secondary canon said the exact opposite. If a primary canon called something capable of destroying the universe while secondary canon simply said it was only planetary, we'd ignore secondary and just stick to primary. If opposite was true, primary canon called something only planetary while secondary called it universal, we again stick to primary canon. Secondary canon =/= Non-canon altogether, it means intended to support the canon or give added context whether or not it fails.

But to your concerns, if Legends ZA does contradict Masters EX, Legends is part of the primary canon and thus would take priority. I was simply clarifying a misconception on what secondary canon means, it's always been case by case and never "One way ignore them altogether no matter what." But it may yet still go in preference since Legends ZA is still primary canon.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Grace period is done! Masters is canon!

I'd like to thank everyone who made this possible after 3 months of waiting on people to agree. The door has been opened for thousands of Pokemon feats to pour in, breathing new life into Pokemon and VS both.

But the story of Sean Pazdera and the repair of Pokemon debating does not end here.

For all debaters who still retain love for Pokemon, for every moderator who believes in the fire that burns within me to repair the disrepair that Pokemon is in, please take a look at my other CRTs, many which have been up even longer than this one, and grant me your feelings on it. I'm not done yet... and I never will be.

• Psychic Power
• Battle Styles
• Pokemon GO additions
• Pokemon Rematch Revisions
• Pokemon Physiology

 

[Jinx666]

Secondary Canon is a section literally listed in our canon page. And you misunderstood by key phrases; "As long as the primary canon does not contradict it." Guidebooks are usable for indexing powers, abilities, or using calculation values if the primary canon doesn't really give us any statements or details. Lots of verses are like that where games give us a vague ending, but secondary canon sources such as guidebooks or official websites explain whether or not certain satellite weapons are capable of "Destroying entire planets" or whether a "Phenomenon that destroyed the universe and created a new one" or "Caused a cosmic inflation in space-time" have happened in the ending(s). It would be a different story if primary canon and secondary canon said the exact opposite. If a primary canon called something capable of destroying the universe while secondary canon simply said it was only planetary, we'd ignore secondary and just stick to primary. If opposite was true, primary canon called something only planetary while secondary called it universal, we again stick to primary canon. Secondary canon =/= Non-canon altogether, it means intended to support the canon or give added context whether or not it fails.

I know what Secondary Canon is, and its only confirmed canon in the sense of character writing which idm worms its way into mainline profiles. Thats not the main issue, i'm asking why we are fine with mixing it since a TON of mainline profiles will contradict it, while a few probably slip under the cracks and dont. It messes with the integrity of the mainline to only consider Masters EX canon for a few profiles.

Its all well and good saying you can expect people to know when it contradicts, but Sean doesnt believe in this and will actively start putting Masters EX in EVERY page and saying it doesnt contradict.

In that sense, Sean believes profusely that Masters EX DOESNT contradict canon in any way (it does, massively, and uses its own interpretations when mainline canon offers two separate perspectives based on which version of the game), and thus its going to cause more issues.

Masters EX doesnt even support the canon lol, its an isolated crossover story about all these trainers from different gens coming to a new island. The timelines don't co-allign, it doesnt follow the exact facts of the game etc. Do the people voting on this even know what Masters EX is about? This isnt a guidebook, it isn't something that adds onto anything but character writing stories.

But to your concerns, if Legends ZA does contradict Masters EX, Legends is part of the primary canon and thus would take priority. I was simply clarifying a misconception on what secondary canon means, it's always been case by case and never "One way ignore them altogether no matter what." But it may yet still go in preference since Legends ZA is still primary canon.

The way Sean intends to use it is NOT going to be used responsibly, and we will NEVER give way when it comes to blatant contradictions. He literally thinks Masters EX takes precedence over mainline games, and as proven, NOBODY is going to call him out other than me evidently.

Grace period is done! Masters is canon!

I'd like to thank everyone who made this possible after 3 months of waiting on people to agree. The door has been opened for thousands of Pokemon feats to pour in, breathing new life into Pokemon and VS both.

But the story of Sean Pazdera and the repair of Pokemon debating does not end here.

^I mean just literally read this. He's sitting here praising himself as some saviour of Pokemon debating, calling it outright canon (cause he believes its canon, over mainline) and ignoring the fact that the vote HASNT swung in the way he wanted it to. He cant even update the OP for any sense of scrutiny or the fact that the stance has changed

No Sean, you still cant just add Masters EX to every mainline profile. Masters EX in itself will contradict itself, and then that will find a way to chain into the other characters who are interconnected in those non-mainline canon events.

 

[Jinx666]

Like are we not SEEING this?

Do people even know why they would want to consider Masters EX secondary canon? Its literally just going to make even more of a mess. Maybe it wouldnt if people were responsible with it, but Sean has been caught numerous times editing pages and their canon to his whim on whatever pokemon games he likes/dislikes. The only people that would not have their 'contradicted' secondary canon are the Masters-EX introduced characters themself.

The votes also STILL hold more favour into making separate profiles, since two people are voting whats essentially 'yeah do whatever, as long as its secondary canon'.

I get you all want this 'over with' but inviting the verse into more turmoil and mess, as opposed to making separate profiles for separate versions of the characters is literally nothing but the best option. Even for Sean, who doesnt realise it because he only cares about making profiles look bigger (as hes admitted countless times)

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Oh my god bruh


Jinx: "It's secondary canon!! That means it has to be put in seperate pages!!"

"Actually, it doesn't mean that at all."

Jinx: "Why do people even want it to be secondary canon??"

 

[Jinx666]

This is literally not what i've been saying at all?

Masters EX is obviously not mainline canon. Its huge and continuous contradictions to the mainline, inability to follow it directly and general fanfic premise ideas that have never so much as been hinted at in a mainline make this clear. Its only thing that can be considered canon is the 'character writing' as per that one interview quote...but thats literally just saying 'Yeah we wrote them faithful to what their character is in the mainline'. Your other points don't hold weight.
However given its a separate continuity, can be considered 'part of the Pokemon multiverse' ig? And has its own isolated story with its crazy scaling implications, then it very much is best suited for separate profiling.

Its not like separate profiles doesnt mean its not 'canon' either, you have characters like Naruto and Goku who have different arc/timeskip splits, on the offchance that would make you feel any better about it. Masters EX is literally its own thing

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bro’s pants are in flames by now.

Its huge and continuous contradictions to the mainline,

Name one other than the SwSh thing. Before you mention Z-A, Z-A got their information wrong, Masters didn’t just retroactively screw up the lore because Z-A exists.

inability to follow it directly

Play the game.

and general fanfic premise ideas that have never so much as been hinted at in a mainline make this clear.

That’s a lie. A great deal of stories work to round out a person’s character or an aspect of it. There’s nothing “fanfic” about it other than characters from different regions interacting.

Its only thing that can be considered canon is the 'character writing' as per that one interview quote...but thats literally just saying 'Yeah we wrote them faithful to what their character is in the mainline'.

Read the rest of the scan. Do you think I’ll stop calling you out on that?

Your other points don't hold weight.

Why not? All you said about them was basically “they’re stupid” before you avoided saying a word about them even when prompted.

However given its a separate continuity, can be considered 'part of the Pokemon multiverse' ig? And has its own isolated story with its crazy scaling implications, then it very much is best suited for separate profiling.

Its not like separate profiles doesnt mean its not 'canon' either, you have characters like Naruto and Goku who have different arc/timeskip splits, on the offchance that would make you feel any better about it. Masters EX is literally its own thing

Oh, so it’s noncanon unless it gets isolated profiles? That’s convenient.

 

[Jinx666]

Yeah im not making this a big text thing

The SwSh thing is enough, but now you're also trying to say Legends ZA isnt canon over Masters EX. Masters EX is a crossover fanfic-event game that dont line up with whah happens in mainline and just throws around legendaries and such willynilly so yeah the premise in itself is very detached from mainline (which is fine but not to be used in scaling). I read the entire scan, they only refer to it as canon via character writing and say nothing abt the events. Read one of my many earlier posts on why your other 3 points are reaches and shouldnt be used (like using a website that just says what game the character debuted in as proof its mainline??? Literally means nothing).

And no, im not saying that abt isolated profiles nor that EX is canon, separate profiles is just what you do for separate takes/versions on characters in media as detached as Masters Ex from mainline. Masters Ex doesnt even follow the same battle system

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Yeah im not making this a big text thing

What an evil way of deflecting all my debunks and criticisms without actually addressing them.

The SwSh thing is enough, but now you're also trying to say Legends ZA isnt canon over Masters EX.

You do not read my responses.

Masters EX is a crossover fanfic-event game that dont line up with whah happens in mainline

You're just slandering a game at this point.

and just throws around legendaries and such willynilly so yeah the premise in itself is very detached from mainline (which is fine but not to be used in scaling).

You know what else does that? B2W2. ORAS. USUM. SwSh's Crown Tundra. And they're all canon, right?

I read the entire scan, they only refer to it as canon via character writing and say nothing abt the events. Read one of my many earlier posts on why your other 3 points are reaches and shouldnt be used (like using a website that just says what game the character debuted in as proof its mainline??? Literally means nothing).

He literally says "they fit in the world of Pokemon." before he even mentions Trainers, dude...

Good thing I literally explained how it added to my point.

And no, im not saying that abt isolated profiles nor that EX is canon, separate profiles is just what you do for separate takes/versions on characters in media as detached as Masters Ex from mainline.

I thought it was secondary canon, Jinx. Good thing this isn't a separate take, much less a seperate version.

Masters Ex doesnt even follow the same battle system

Kid named Triple Battles:

 

[Jinx666]

Well yeah im not gonna be responding to all of them, cause its the same drivel i've already went over

I will say that trying to claim Masters EX is canon because someone offhandedly described it as 'in the world of Pokemon' is another case of you taking things too literally and making a reach instead of what the statement blatantly is ('world of Pokemon' referring to the franchise itself, and not confirming at all this is part of the mainline. Theres tons of Pokemon media that works outside of the mainline in the 'World of Pokemon')

Also Triple Battles are still not the same as Masters EX's battle system just because its a 3 on 3. Masters Ex isnt turn based.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Well yeah im not gonna be responding to all of them, cause its the same drivel i've already went over

Alright, then I'll do the same. We're done here.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

@Imaginym This can be closed now, since this thread finally passed! Thank you!

 

[Jinx666]

Theres still more in favour of making separate profiles so if you really wanna close the thread, go for it. Just dont be deluded

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Theres still more in favour of making separate profiles so if you really wanna close the thread, go for it. Just dont be deluded

That's not what Secondary Canon means, remember?

 

[Jinx666]

Sean, you werent even gunning for Secondary Canon lol, you wanted to make it full on canon.

no one agreed with you trying to put it over the mainline but accepted you could use tidbits at best (no one was specific about what details to use as Secondary canon either), you refused to update the OP and now you think no one has noticed you're just scraping with what you can get. No one will ever see Masters EX as mainline canon

This doesnt mean you can just give every mainline character the mons they own in Masters EX, use its scaling if Masters EX outright contradicts how their main story, refer to their events and use it to make dumb chainscaling for a Low 2-C average either. You'd literally only be able to use Masters EX for what has explicitly been stated to be canon - The character writing. Even then, you cant associate canon protag characters to the player-controlled protags of the games.

And above all else, theres still more in favour of actually making separate profiles as the better option. (And it is, just flat out. Literally every other section of the wiki relevantly makes separate profiles for separate versions of the character. We got people like Medeus trying to treat Masters Ex as if its a guidebook support as opposed to its own crossover game that directly cant take place within mainline). Heck this is beneficial for YOU too, but you cant see it because you think Quantity > Quality

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Sean, you werent even gunning for Secondary Canon lol, you wanted to make it full on canon.

I didn’t even know that “secondary canon” existed before I made the OP. Even if I did, I know that the world is not binary and compromises can be made if I had to.

no one agreed with you trying to put it over the mainline but accepted you could use tidbits at best (no one was specific about what details to use as Secondary canon either), you refused to update the OP and now you think no one has noticed you're just scraping with what you can get. No one will ever see Masters EX as mainline canon

I didn’t propose to decanonize Crown Tundra here. I left it off due to people not liking it and there really being no place where it would fit. “Tidbits at best” is also major cap, because the CRT is about the game being canon, which is exactly what they’re agreeing to. The only “update” you ever wanted me to give my CRT was to change my proposal from canon to secondary canon… and why in the **** would I debase my CRT and my own dignity by doing that?

This doesnt mean you can just give every mainline character the mons they own in Masters EX, use its scaling if Masters EX outright contradicts how their main story, refer to their events and use it to make dumb chainscaling for a Low 2-C average either. You'd literally only be able to use Masters EX for what has explicitly been stated to be canon - The character writing. Even then, you cant associate canon protag characters to the player-controlled protags of the games.

Masters takes place after mainline, remember? I’ve only reminded you of this 5 septendecillion times.

“Low 2-C” You’re funny. I could upgrade everyone to Low 1-C if I wanted to since Rei is in Masters and there are characters who have oneshotted him.

No, we’ll use everything, thank you. And we already have feats from both when Red is the playable character in LGPE and when he’s a superboss in HGSS and USUM on his page, so…

And above all else, theres still more in favour of actually making separate profiles as the better option. (And it is, just flat out. Literally every other section of the wiki relevantly makes separate profiles for separate versions of the character. We got people like Medeus trying to treat Masters Ex as if its a guidebook support as opposed to its own crossover game that directly cant take place within mainline). Heck this is beneficial for YOU too, but you cant see it because you think Quantity > Quality

Immediately names a person that disagrees with him

Dude, you are the quantity here. I’m trying to fix up and add to profiles we’ve already got, and you’re trying to chop them apart into multiple redundant pages.

 

[Jinx666]

You didnt propose, you outright did it in the Gloria profile. Thats part of the reason it got moved to a blog post, because thats a frankly untrue statement and showed your regard for placing Masters EX over it. You would 'debase' it, because thats what is being discussed instead of purposefully trying to portray as if 10 people agree it should be canon in the way you want it to be. Its inaccurate to what is being conclusively talked about, and its intentional.

Masters EX would take place 'after the mainline' (which is still ongoing, and will continue to do so for the forseeable future), but that doesnt mean its an addition to mainline itself, especially when it actively contradicts it,
Exactly. You're out here thinking we can make every Pokemon character who makes it to Masters Low 1-C. Literal crazy talk.
Red is the exception since he has an actual NPC role and confirmed team members. None of the other protags (when they are in a protag role and not being a rival placeholder) do, and even then the profiles you made say NOTHING about the pokemon they would own.

You're literally just trying to make profiles look as big and bloated as possible. You aren't fixing anything, you're adding more.
The entire wiki in itself now makes separate profiles for separate continuities of characters. Just because Pokemon is still living to the standards of the wiki in 2014 or w/e doesn't mean we should keep it that way. Compositing isn't allowed all on one profile, go to that Character Stats/Profiles wiki if you want to do that.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Bros cut it off

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

You didnt propose, you outright did it in the Gloria profile. Thats part of the reason it got moved to a blog post, because thats a frankly untrue statement and showed your regard for placing Masters EX over it. You would 'debase' it, because thats what is being discussed instead of purposefully trying to portray as if 10 people agree it should be canon in the way you want it to be. Its inaccurate to what is being conclusively talked about, and its intentional.

I took it out of my Google Drive document for the OP long before that.

They can still agree to make it secondary canon no matter what the proposal was.

Masters EX would take place 'after the mainline' (which is still ongoing, and will continue to do so for the forseeable future), but that doesnt mean its an addition to mainline itself, especially when it actively contradicts it,
Exactly. You're out here thinking we can make every Pokemon character who makes it to Masters Low 1-C. Literal crazy talk.
Red is the exception since he has an actual NPC role and confirmed team members. None of the other protags (when they are in a protag role and not being a rival placeholder) do, and even then the profiles you made say NOTHING about the pokemon they would own.

That doesn't matter because Masters would still take place after it like what happened with SwSh and SV. Also if it's canon, it is an addition to mainline.
No I'm not thinking that because I'm not sick in the head. Though even without Masters they made basically everyone in the verse 2-B/2-A, and Masters would just scale that to more people and make them a higher degree of the same tier.
Nice, guess what the characters in Masters have? Their exact team members don't exactly matter since they'd have caught their whole Pokedex.

You're literally just trying to make profiles look as big and bloated as possible. You aren't fixing anything, you're adding more.
The entire wiki in itself now makes separate profiles for separate continuities of characters. Just because Pokemon is still living to the standards of the wiki in 2014 or w/e doesn't mean we should keep it that way. Compositing isn't allowed all on one profile, go to that Character Stats/Profiles wiki if you want to do that.

That's not what quantity is. I can't fix much that's already broken because my revision CRT is in hell at the moment.
Good thing this isn't a separate continuity.

 

[Imaginym]

This thread is already agreed upon, & secondary canon, as I understand it, briefly, means acceptable so long as it doesn't contradict the main canon, presuming it meets the other prerequisites that content needs to be implemented.
Thus, presumably, changes that could be implemented under this premise will still need to be proposed properly in CRTs & evaluated case by case to see if they are acceptable.
As this thread is already concluded, it seems like arguing here cannot progress it. If you have issues with what may be accepted as a result of the conclusions here, you should present them in pertinent CRT(s).
& you two, Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera & Jinx666, have been known to get into arguments that have not been looked well upon, so I doubt it is good that you two do so here & now, either.
If staff, such as those who've already agreed upon conclusions within this thread, feel it necessary in the future, such as a result of this discussion, they can re-open this thread, though, AtM, I'd say this thread is quite substantial to evaluate if it is wished that it be evaluated in its entirety.

Thusly, I am now closing this thread.

Also, for clarity, the text of DDM's post where they clarified what they agreed with (on the previous page.), is this text:

"With an asked clarification, the stance I agree with is this.

"Proposals I think would be reasonable: Secondary canon, new keys, new profiles, some combination of the previous three."

"
Link to the aforementioned post.