Madeline Vs. The Knight

[Eden_Warlock99]

Madeline scales to 48 588 000 joules, and Knight to 6635858.016 Joules, so 7.32x AP advantage for Madeline

Madeline is 225.6 MJ

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

to be fair though, Madeline's dashes are... well like 2x the size of anything Knight has ever faced lol

I'm fairly certain Knight's Shadow Dash can't even properly go through her attacks fully

Isn't False Knight around the same height?

Madeline is 225.6 MJ

Yea, so she is almost 4x stronger

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Isn't False Knight around the same height?

False Knight is only around ~89cm

 

[DavidTPPM]

Come on, be real.

If you want to claim that wasn't what you were talking about, don't give me an analogy that easy to pick apart.

No? That wasn't even remotely what I was talking about. My whole point was that just because a character never one shotted someone doesn't mean they can't do so.

I have a question: is that a hax that is generally unquantifiable? Because Soul hax is unquantifiable. Fire, or Electricity, is not.

I can quantify and calculate the lethality of fire.

So? Your argument is that if it never one shotted someone then it can't. Idc if you can quantify it, by your own argument you might as well quantify fire to be 9e9999999999999 °C but if it never one shotted someone, it just can't.

I have a question: outside of specific verses, can you do so with soulhax? No "it should kill", I need hard facts of quantifying soulhax.Now show me this soul damage being lethal.

I don’t have to, same way you wouldn't have to show me a trillion ° Celsius fire being lethal to someone with no heat resistance. If Madeline doesn't have any feats or evidence of being able to withstand her soul and mind being damaged then she's not surviving TK doing so to her.

Just because Knight's soul damage isn't lethal to someone who can survive soul damage doesn't mean someone with no soul resistance would also be unaffected.

 

[DaReaperMan]

No? That wasn't even remotely what I was talking about. My whole point was that just because a character never one shotted someone doesn't mean they can't do so.

So? Your argument is that if it never one shotted someone then it can't. Idc if you can quantify it, by your own argument you might as well quantify fire to be 9e9999999999999 °C but if it never one shotted someone, it just can't.

I don’t have to, same way you wouldn't have to show me a trillion ° Celsius fire being lethal to someone with no heat resistance. If Madeline doesn't have any feats or evidence of being able to withstand her soul and mind being damaged then she's not surviving TK doing so to her.

Just because Knight's soul damage isn't lethal to someone who can survive soul damage doesn't mean someone with no soul resistance would also be unaffected.

I can quantify temperature David. We as humans have a solid grasp of the science of that... I cannot quantify Soulhax. We as humans case-by-case believe a Soul even exists in the first place, and among those what a Soul is varies from belief to belief.

If you have an unsubstantiated assumption, I won't agree with it. It's better to make a QnA thread and ask mods what's the case rather than arguing with someone who's view on the matter has been the same since 2023.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

It doesn't matter if it negates dura or not. It should only be resistance if this dura neg would one-shot regular people. But we don't know that here. You can hit a soul in more ways than just instantly destroying it.

Retired staff but you get the idea.

My whole point was that just because a character never one shotted someone doesn't mean they can't do so.

Even in this route, the safer assumption would be that it doesn’t one-shot rather than assume it does.

Worse because in this case literally everyone in Hollow Knight isn't all that affected by it.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

False Knight is only around ~89cm

Lmao I thought he was around 1.5 meters

 

[Arceus0x]

You only need like 40cm to go through a human at worst so not an issue.

 

[Skyrod5861]

So who are you all leaning towards rn

 

[Kellex]

So who are you all leaning towards rn

The Knight stomps pretty easily as Arceus0x said earlier.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

So who are you all leaning towards rn

Knight slams

 

[Skyrod5861]

Madeline is 225.6 MJ

so who are you backing to win

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Think Madeline just takes this purely off her almost x4 AP advantage.
This is the Knight’s first key, so there’s barely any real upscaling from the Hornet feat, and that same feat knocked her out too.

Skill probably also won't matter much here either since Madeline is twice as big of the biggest foes the Knight has gone against and is just as mobile, no actually wayyy more mobile than the Knight themself. And like, HK has some decent skill feats from Hornet and the like, but it's not really anything crazy.

They're not even all that in terms of hax, their healing requires them to hit Madeline a few times and then spend a decent amount of time focusing just to heal 1 mask lol.
Shade Cloak is plenty helpful, but it still only goes so far.

Maybe their Shade could tip the scales? Not really sure how we treat it tho.

 

[Arceus0x]

Think Madeline just takes this purely off her almost x4 AP advantage.
This is the Knight’s first key, so there’s barely any real upscaling from the Hornet feat, and that same feat knocked her out too.

She was likely already knocked down by the HK as it happens in the sealed siblings ending, not to mention that the void itself has an effect on the mind. She gets up pretty handily after that with no visible damage. Also like, first key has all of his gear except for voidheart as well as all the possible feats pre-void heart, which includes beating Hornet 2 and beating Pantheon 4.

Skill probably also won't matter much here either since Madeline is twice as big of the biggest foes the Knight has gone against and is just as mobile, no actually wayyy more mobile than the Knight themself. And like, HK has some decent skill feats from Hornet and the like, but it's not really anything crazy.

This argument is a nothingburger. Madeline has no combat skill, she is basically a more agile and bigger Gruz Mother, Knight would have no trouble evading her strikes especially when he constantly goes up against swordmasters and flying enemies. He has dealt with Oro and Mato, who are around 80cm both, who throughout the entire fight dash around and fly throughout the arena with wide slashes and attacks.
Knight may have less mobility but when it comes to dealing with bigger opponents he is far from uselss. At this point Knight can beat opponents like Pure Vessel, who is close to human size and half his attacks are either arena-wide dashes or cover 90% of the arena in damage points. Same goes for NKG. Knight has dealt with these kinds of opponents.

They're not even all that in terms of hax, their healing requires them to hit Madeline a few times and then spend a decent amount of time focusing just to heal 1 mask lol.
Shade Cloak is plenty helpful, but it still only goes so far.

Even if we assume he is using no charms, the soul hax will damage madeline more than an average hit. To add to this there are the spells, which burn the opponent and also deal far more damage than the average strike. If Madeline doesn't hit him once she could get a facefull of spells that hit several times.

Maybe their Shade could tip the scales? Not really sure how we treat it tho.

Doesn't need it.

 

[Arceus0x]

Fight's basically gonna be useless once skong upgrades hit anyways, there's AP upscale for a weakened Hornet that is likely to be 300+ mj if we go by Armor's calcs

 

[Kellex]

there's AP upscale for a weakened Hornet that is likely to be 300+ mj if we go by Armor's calcs

Haha- WHAT

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

She was likely already knocked down by the HK as it happens in the sealed siblings ending, not to mention that the void itself has an effect on the mind. She gets up pretty handily after that with no visible damage. Also like, first key has all of his gear except for voidheart as well as all the possible feats pre-void heart, which includes beating Hornet 2 and beating Pantheon 4.

It’s not like Hornet ever actually shows visible damage, even when she’s badly injured (See two times in Silksong).

In terms of Gear, they have the standard ones, but the important ones (Charms) are optional.
And yeah, they beat Hornet, after a long, drawn-out fight. It wasn’t exactly a stomp.

Pantheon 4 is a whole mess in of itself.
For one, we currently have Pure Vessel listed on the Radiance's level of power, and due to the nature of Godhome, the Knight could die without any repercussions either.
Also at the end of the day, this Knight is very much physically weaker than the Pure Vessel, especially if they don’t have their Charms, we obviously can't put them as equals.

This argument is a nothingburger. Madeline has no combat skill, she is basically a more agile and bigger Gruz Mother, Knight would have no trouble evading her strikes especially when he constantly goes up against swordmasters and flying enemies. He has dealt with Oro and Mato, who are around 80cm both, who throughout the entire fight dash around and fly throughout the arena with wide slashes and attacks.

Fighting swordmasters is in no way comparable to fighting a giant Kaiju who's faster than you? Like Oro and Mato are half Madeline's height and are nowhere as fast.

Madeline can cross the her body length distance as simultaneously as the Knight, just that gives her a massive edge.

Even if we assume he is using no charms, the soul hax will damage madeline more than an average hit.

Will it? Literally every enemy in game just takes it like a regular hit, hell, a hard carapace makes it do nothing lol

Fight's basically gonna be useless once skong upgrades hit anyways, there's AP upscale for a weakened Hornet that is likely to be 300+ mj if we go by Armor's calcs

ye, also just realized the Knight's vengeful spirit charring corpses isn't mentioned on their profile at all, probably should add that in the Silksong CRT.

 

[Arceus0x]

It’s not like Hornet ever actually shows visible damage, even when she’s badly injured (See two times in Silksong).

When she's damaged enough she can die, when she is at one mask she is visibly struggling to stand as seen in Silksong and after you beat her in HK. After the explosion she wakes up and stands up without being in pain, suggesting she isn't seriously damaged.

In terms of Gear, they have the standard ones, but the important ones (Charms) are optional.
And yeah, they beat Hornet, after a long, drawn-out fight. It wasn’t exactly a stomp.

Not that long, it was a fight, it wasn't too difficult of a fight considering she doesn't do double damage either, meaning she is on the lower side of things.

Pantheon 4 is a whole mess in of itself.
For one, we currently have Pure Vessel listed on the Radiance's level of power, and due to the nature of Godhome, the Knight could die without any repercussions either.

He still can beat it. Knight is at his peak here. Also sure, PV is currently rated weirdly, but like, the scale is gonna change either way with Skong calcs for the higher end entities so that's gonna shift. For now say that Radience scales above PV as some things are outdated. Despite that, Knight still fought him and won, that is still a massive W and that is after he already beat several opponents.

Also at the end of the day, this Knight is very much physically weaker than the Pure Vessel, especially if they don’t have their Charms, we obviously can't put them as equals.

We can't but this isn't about physical prowess, this is about size and dodging capabilities. Knight can dodge massive attacks that tower over him, dashes that cover most of the arena and focus attacks that basically make 70%+ of the arena a damage area. I am proving that he can dodge attacks from Madeline, not that he outscales her.

Fighting swordmasters is in no way comparable to fighting a giant Kaiju who's faster than you?

The tallest characters are smaller than a human, sure, but that doesn't make them some undodgeable kaiju.
Another thing to note is - this isn't the video game, this is a fight in an actual enviroment, the knight can, ya know, dodge sideways.

Also, why are you ignoring the small size advantage? With no combat skills to speak of there's nothing that suggests Knight couldn't just run circles around Madeline without her being able to actually land a proper hit on him. Like without game mechanics involved, what stop the Knight of just getting on top of her and shooting spells point blank? She doesn't have kill aura.

Like Oro and Mato are half Madeline's height and are nowhere as fast.

True, they are faster lmao. Don't go around using speed as an argument when they're literally High Hypersonic to Madeline's superhuman speed. If we equalize speed then that'd make the speed equal.

Madeline can cross the her body length distance as simultaneously as the Knight, just that gives her a massive edge.

If Knight can dodge sideways or just dash through her with intangibility (something he can do since, whilst she is taller than Knight's opponents, she is NOT wider than them unless you can prove she has a BMI of 60) then this is a non-issue. You seem to keep forgetting that humans aren't exaxtly very wide and to dodge through one's legs (for example) you'd only need to move like 30cm.

Will it? Literally every enemy in game just takes it like a regular hit, hell, a hard carapace makes it do nothing lol

A hard carapace means there's enough thickness there to make impossible to make contact with the body that contains the soul. Knight can use metallic soul totems and can gather soul from armored enemies. In the case of Baldurs, for example, they have a supernatural shell as it naturally generated the baldur's shell charm which can make a damage negating shield.

ye, also just realized the Knight's vengeful spirit charring corpses isn't mentioned on their profile at all, probably should add that in the Silksong CRT.

True

 

[Skyrod5861]

If The Knight can't kill with their soul absorbion, it means they can't

Who do you think wins

iirc the Knight’s regular speed is abysmal compared to the feats Madeline pulls off in the prologue so it seems like a mobility diff to me.

Do you still think Madeline wins?

Honestly? Maybe. Their AP is fairly close so it's like like there's a major advantage here.

Who do you think wins overall then

 

[Catbowtie]

Do you still think Madeline wins?

Nah she gets Stomped

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Catbowtie will see a low-mid diff fight and call it a stomp

 

[Arceus0x]

Madeline when her hulking 5'5 body dashes towards the dastardly knight only for him to slip through her tiny-ass feet and severe her ankles

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I'm deadass surprised that people made a profile for Madeline. Girl is a climber

 

[Catbowtie]

I don’t care what diff the match is, I DONT WANT TO SEE DEATH MATCHES OF MY COMFORT CHARACTER. The only matches Madeline should have are WINS and WINS ONLY. She SHOULDNT even BE on versus battles anyways. She SHOULD BE making strawberry pies and IMPROVING HER MENTAL HEALTH

 

[Arceus0x]

I don’t care what diff the match is, I DONT WANT TO SEE DEATH MATCHES OF MY COMFORT CHARACTER. The only matches Madeline should have are WINS and WINS ONLY. She SHOULDNT even BE on versus battles anyways. She SHOULD BE making strawberry pies and IMPROVING HER MENTAL HEALTH

Or option 3: