Captain Commando Upgrades and inclusion in the Street Fighter Verse Page

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Currently Captain Commando has his own Verse page and characters in this game have Small Building level, Transonic and Class 1 stats. It's time to change that.

The game Captain Commando is part of the same verse as Street Fighter (and Final Fight, Rival Schools and Slam Masters):

• Takayuki Nakayama (the director of SFV and 6) explicitly stated that Captain Commando is part of the same verse as Street Fighter.
• He also confirmed that this ninja (Gou) was Guy's apprentice and the father of this ninja (Ginzu), and that they will become the 40th and 41st grandmasters of Bushinryu respectively.
• Marvel vs Capcom said the game's events take place in Metro City in 2026. Metro City is the setting of the Final Fight games and SF6's World Tour.
• It is revealed in the arcade flyer that Ginzu is a practitioner and heir of Bunshinryu.

So this proves that Captain Commando is part of the same verse as Street Fighter, and to recap, that means that the known list of the last grandmasters of Bushinryu is like this:

Genryusai (37th master) > Zeku (38th master) > Guy (39th master) > Gou (40th master) > Ginzu (41th master).

So, why it is important? Because it upgrades Ginzu (and his fellow commando, because all four of them fought and defeated the final boss of the game) to City Block, High Hypersonic, and Class G. To become the 39th Grandmaster, Guy had to beat the current Grandmaster Zeku, which means Gou had to beat Guy to become the 40th and Ginzu had to beat Gou to become the 41st. At the time of SF4 (years before SF6 where Gou wasn't even a grandmaster yet), Guy was already City Block/High Hypersonic/Class G thanks to his intense training, so Gou beat Guy in his second key.

Even if this upgrade is not accepted, Ginzu should at least scale to Kimberly because Captain Commando's Ginzu is more experienced than SF6's Kimberly since he literally saved the world, and therefore uprgade from 0.007 tons/Transonic to 0.037 tons/Supersonic+.

NOTE:
Also, it's confirmed that Captain Commando's gauntlets increase his punch by 48, so if he is 0.037 tons or 48.67 Tons of TNT with the gauntlets, what is his AP without them?


Agree:
Disagree: @SamanPatou @Armorchompy
Neutral:

 

[SamanPatou]

I'm opposed to the merging because Captain Commando's universe doesn't really line-up with the SF one and was never meant to be in the first place, and not even with Strider's, that, according to Nakayama, is supposed to be also part of the same universe. So, the assumption here would be that Gou lived for countless years, or at least enough to see the world going from a realistic one based on the real one, to a super sci-fi, interplanetary society with cyborgs, mutants etc..., which at some point would even to once-again be completely revolutionized into the Strider world, which is similar but also strikingly different.

Strider and CC were also never intended to be part of the more mundane SF universe, and I believe the original games' conceptions take precedence over funny/interesting references by one single director that came decades later (I'm not meaning to disrespect Nakayama, mind you).
Aside from few and loose references (mostly Zeku's story), we don't really have any overlapping, cross-overs and so on between the series, unlike Slam Masters, FF and Rival Schools, that nowadays are quite explicitly part of a shared universe.

Scaling would also be faulty, because each game's based on different premises and feats, and doing such type of comparisons would be an enormous stretch.

All in all, to say that one Twitter post doesn't bear nearly enough authority to justify such a huge merge that calls in countless contradictions.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I'm opposed to the merging because Captain Commando's universe doesn't really line-up with the SF one and was never meant to be in the first place, and not even with Strider's, that, according to Nakayama, is supposed to be also part of the same universe. So, the assumption here would be that Gou lived for countless years, or at least enough to see the world going from a realistic one based on the real one, to a super sci-fi, interplanetary society with cyborgs, mutants etc..., which at some point would even to once-again be completely revolutionized into the Strider world, which is similar but also strikingly different.

SF6 takes place in the 2000s and Captain Commando in 2026, I don't see why it would be weird if Gou was still alive in the 2020s (especially when Oro exists in Street Fighter).

Strider and CC were also never intended to be part of the more mundane SF universe, and I believe the original games' conceptions take precedence over funny/interesting references by one single director that came decades later (I'm not meaning to disrespect Nakayama, mind you).

For CC it is false because it takes place in Metro City, it's confirmed in the character's bio in the MvC video in the OP and in the game we even find statues of Haggar. It's also confirmed that Ginzu practices Bunshinryu in an arcade flyer.

Aside from few and loose references (mostly Zeku's story), we don't really have any overlapping, cross-overs and so on between the series, unlike Slam Masters, FF and Rival Schools, that nowadays are quite explicitly part of a shared universe.

Because CC and Strider take place in the future.

All in all, to say that one Twitter post doesn't bear nearly enough authority to justify such a huge merge that calls in countless contradictions.

Which contradictions ? And these are explicit tweets from the game director himself. For CC, he just confirms what we already knew.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

We also can't just ignore that Gou appears in SF6, when we already saw concept art of the character in Capcom books at the time of CC

 

[SamanPatou]

SF6 takes place in the 2000s and Captain Commando in 2026, I don't see why it would be weird if Gou was still alive in the 2020s (especially when Oro exists in Street Fighter).

SF6 doesn't take place in any specific year, since the exact dates used back in the SF2 days are not valid anymore for obvious reasons and the only one other reference to a precise timeline comes from a single guidebook released at the time of SFV, that tried to pull things together, but shouldn't be taken as a gospel.
For all intents and purposes SF6 takes place in 2023 (its release year) considering the internet, smartphones, society and everything that mimics the current state of the world at the time, like all games always did.
And even if we were to consider it taking place somewhen in the early 2000's, do we really believe it took just 20 years for Earth to transform into a dystopic, futuristic society where exchanges with multiple aliens from across the galaxy, sentient robots, mutants and much more are the norm?

For CC it is false because it takes place in Metro City, it's confirmed in the character's bio in the MvC video in the OP and in the game we even find statues of Haggar. It's also confirmed that Ginzu practices Bunshinryu in an arcade flyer.

These are all more references and overlapping of common elements. You find such references everywhere in Capcom games, like Mega Man X using the Hadoken, but all games are full of easter eggs pointing at each other. Also, MvC isn't a reliable source for canon.

Because CC and Strider take place in the future.

CC and Strider's worlds take place each in their own future, but they share only a sci-fi theme. When you account for Strider, especially, that has a fairly established lore, that differs entirely from both the CC and SF one (one quick gander at the Strider wiki, which has references, reveals it), then you can easily tell they were never meant, and factually are not, the same world with the same history.

Which contradictions ? And these are explicit tweets from the game director himself. For CC, he just confirms what we already knew.

Nakayama is a recent director for SF only and this tweet would supposedly overrule who knows how many directors that worked on, wrote and created all the Street Fighter, Captain Commando and Strider games over the course of nearly 40 years, never intending them to be in the same setting.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

SF3 is stated in an old japanese text to be an event from 1997 to 200X and 1 year passing between the versions, with characters like Ken son being 3-4 years old in these events, then SF6 having him be a teenager which only ages from 13-19 count, so SF6 would be pretty much 10 years after SF3, thus it makes SF6 be by this in the late 2000s to early 2010s

The idea smarpthones and the likes dictates it should be in 2023 as its release isnt an argument, various works around fiction have technology far above ours despite we eventually reach these years, like sword art online being a 2022 onwards in universe with tech we dont have even now

Captain commando also being an example, if that world takes place in the mid 2020s and has all that advanced stuff for that world in particular they just are that far ahead, SF is also no different, if you are to take the games events being their release years, Shadaloo has technology pretty advanced for the 90s

Street Fighter is in need of a clearer gap with its timeline in the bear future as there is tidbits here and there for it to go by, the characters birth dates also aint to be ignored just cuz Capcom doesnt state them anymore, they are still official dates with clear indication of characters ages

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

SF6 doesn't take place in any specific year, since the exact dates used back in the SF2 days are not valid anymore for obvious reasons and the only one other reference to a precise timeline comes from a single guidebook released at the time of SFV, that tried to pull things together, but shouldn't be taken as a gospel.

As long as the years given by the guidebook are not explicitly contradicted by the source material there is no reason not to take them into account.

And even if we were to consider it taking place somewhen in the early 2000's, do we really believe it took just 20 years for Earth to transform into a dystopic, futuristic society where exchanges with multiple aliens from across the galaxy, sentient robots, mutants and much more are the norm?

Yes, because it's fiction.

These are all more references and overlapping of common elements. You find such references everywhere in Capcom games, like Mega Man X using the Hadoken, but all games are full of easter eggs pointing at each other.

For CC it's obviously not just references at this point, it proves that this game is indeed set in Metro City.

Also, MvC isn't a reliable source for canon.

Capcom wouldn't claim that CC events take place in Metro City if it was false. This just proves once again that CC events take place in Metro City. Don't forget that MvC games are made by Capcom themselves.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Nakayama is a recent director for SF only and this tweet would supposedly overrule who knows how many directors that worked on, wrote and created all the Street Fighter, Captain Commando and Strider games over the course of nearly 40 years, never intending them to be in the same setting.

Retcons exist. For CC it was always planned like this, but even if it wasn't, new information about the lore takes precedence over the old.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

And whether CC and Strider were originally intended to be canon in SF or not changes nothing because there is no contradiction in them being in the same verse as SF.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Just tag mods, bumping wont have them see it

 

[SamanPatou]

I will give my own reply soon, I just haven't had the time so far.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Minor Bump.

 

[SamanPatou]

Here we are stretching the arguments, going against basic rules of Occam's razor and common sense.
Street Fighter has a sliding timescale, just like every fiction set in the real world that adapts to the current period during which it is published.

The guidebooks which presented actual dates were clearly meant to reference the time of their publication, when it made sense for the characters to be born at a certain time and the world to have a specific look.
But if we really assume time flows as said, the SF world just burned through 40 years of real world metamorphosis and technology advancement over little more than 10 years, and Shadaloo, FBI and secret organizations' technology is clearly an exception, considering how the rest of the society always adapted to the technology of every year the respective game was published.
Then, in less than 20 years, the world turned into a dystopic, cyberpunk society in a world where intergalactic travel is a common thing and aliens, mutants, cyborgs and much more populate the world.

The you cannot ignore Strider's supposed inclusion just to justify Captain Commando, because Strider's lore deals with alternate history, with real world politics, with the Soviet Union never dissolving and the world being in a state of cold/active war until 2040.
And while similarly cyber-punkish, the world of Strider doesn't feature aliens in any way, unlike CC's one.

We would have to ignore a humungous amount of loopholes and make up headcanon arguments and justifications to explain how these three completely different worlds mesh together, just to then try and cross scale characters who never interacted with each other in a ridicolous scaling chain hinging on a simple Twitter post. We also analyse and take this kind of sources, Word of God, with greater scrutiny than normal, because for the sake of cool they jeopardize and destroy what has been built thus far in a media or another, and this applies to video games, comic books and so on.

The scaling itself is also shaky and based just on rank and supposed experience. Even if the passing of the grandmaster title occurred through battle, which is all ut granted, (or even at all considering how multi-canon-destroying this thing would be), we still don't know the sequence of events. Even just connecting Ginzu to Kimberly goes through various layers of assumptions that simply make it not credible.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Here we are stretching the arguments, going against basic rules of Occam's razor and common sense.
Street Fighter has a sliding timescale, just like every fiction set in the real world that adapts to the current period during which it is published.

The guidebooks which presented actual dates were clearly meant to reference the time of their publication, when it made sense for the characters to be born at a certain time and the world to have a specific look.
But if we really assume time flows as said, the SF world just burned through 40 years of real world metamorphosis and technology advancement over little more than 10 years, and Shadaloo, FBI and secret organizations' technology is clearly an exception, considering how the rest of the society always adapted to the technology of every year the respective game was published.
Then, in less than 20 years, the world turned into a dystopic, cyberpunk society in a world where intergalactic travel is a common thing and aliens, mutants, cyborgs and much more populate the world.

The you cannot ignore Strider's supposed inclusion just to justify Captain Commando, because Strider's lore deals with alternate history, with real world politics, with the Soviet Union never dissolving and the world being in a state of cold/active war until 2040.
And while similarly cyber-punkish, the world of Strider doesn't feature aliens in any way, unlike CC's one.

We would have to ignore a humungous amount of loopholes and make up headcanon arguments and justifications to explain how these three completely different worlds mesh together, just to then try and cross scale characters who never interacted with each other in a ridicolous scaling chain hinging on a simple Twitter post. We also analyse and take this kind of sources, Word of God, with greater scrutiny than normal, because for the sake of cool they jeopardize and destroy what has been built thus far in a media or another, and this applies to video games, comic books and so on.

The scaling itself is also shaky and based just on rank and supposed experience. Even if the passing of the grandmaster title occurred through battle, which is all ut granted, (or even at all considering how multi-canon-destroying this thing would be), we still don't know the sequence of events. Even just connecting Ginzu to Kimberly goes through various layers of assumptions that simply make it not credible.

CC has always been a part of the Street Fighter-verse because the events of the game take place in Metro City, something Capcom had already established years ago before SFV and 6 (so it's not something that Nakayama said first, and the fact that he said that on X/Twitter doesn't mean that his statements are automatically invalid), confirming that the Mike Haggar statues in the game weren't just easter eggs, but rather confirmation that it took place in a futuristic Metro City. With that you add two official manuals/flyers which say that Ginzu is a practitioner of Bunshinryu.

The only contradiction you give to this official information is that it doesn't make sense in worldbuilding when they probably don't care whether the technological advancement is accurate or not (like many other examples in fiction). In addition, in SF6 we already find robots in the streets of Metro City so it's already Sci-Fi to a certain extent.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Anyway, do I put you in Disagree for the votes?

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm in agreement with Saman here. This seems like a bit of a reach.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

So I'm waiting for other staff members or are two votes enough to close the thread?

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I'm in agreement with Saman here. This seems like a bit of a reach.

Wait, are you talking about canonicity or just scaling?

 

[Armorchompy]

One sort of implies the other, but both. A twitter post is hardly evidence to assume this much about the series' timeline.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

One sort of implies the other, but both. A twitter post is hardly evidence to assume this much about the series' timeline.

What about the other official confirmations? Or even that Ginzu's father appears in SF6?

 

[Imaginym]

I was asked to comment here.
Apologies, but this seems like a topic that requires understanding of the SF franchise I'm not sure I possess, so I'm not sure I can really contribute. : (

 

[Vietthai96]

oh well, OP asked to close the thread due to two admins disagreeing.