Infinite Zamasu: A dreadful upgrade

[TiltedFN]

The main issue is that the thread is saying Infinite and Fused Zamasu are the same strength. This means you're pushing for a Low 1-C upgrade for ever character that scales to Fused Zamasu.

Since the corruption of the timestream was noted as happening in real time and Zamasu was still expanding, I believe an "Eventually Low 1-C" rating is more supported and less prone to massive scaling issue. Since you're otherwise suggesting that every character from Zamasu on should also be "possibly Low 1-C" if not outright Low 1-C.

Well, like I said in the OP, scaling should be handled in another thread since that will be a much more important. Not to mention the scaling can potentially change. I'm just trying to get across that "Eventually Low-C" doesn't work because IZ didn't get infinitely stronger during that scene; his range is Low 1-C because of the "spreading" part . And nah, even when doing the scaling thread, not every character is gonna have this; most probably won't to be honest but like I said that is for the future thread. In fact, this thread will only apply this rating to Infinite Zamasu if accepted. Merged Zamasu is a scaling chain issue which can be handled in the scaling thread separately, so even his rating won't be changed since he might potentially get downgraded when we do the scaling CRT. The scaling thread might also just conclude that no one should get it, that's also a possibility but that's not for this thread.

 

[Da3ggman]

There is no hard rule that only Zeno can do timeline-level feats.

It's more of the fact that no one else shows the capability to do so, not that they absolutely can't.

Regardless, scaling isn't even relevant to this thread. The OP states that we will be handling that separately. So let's leave this for now and focus on Zamasu.

That's fair, any sort of scaling implications should be handled in a separate thread.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well, like I said in the OP, scaling should be handled in another thread since that will be a much more important.

This just reads as an attempt at a stealth upgrade then. The rules for CRTs is that if the scaling chain is effected/alterer, all profiles effected by that change must also be listed and what the new tieirng should be for them.

I'm just trying to get across that "Eventually Low-C" doesn't work because IZ didn't get infinitely stronger during that scene; his range is Low 1-C because of the "spreading" part .

That's the point of eventually. He was merging with the timestream and becoming one with it, to the point where he was beginning to go into different timestreams before Zeno erased him. It's a process that is actively going on, meaning he'd didn't instantly finish with the merger when achieved that form.

Merged Zamasu is a scaling chain issue which can be handled in the scaling thread separately,

Merged Zamasu would have to happen here. If your argument is that they shouldn't scale anymore, then they would need a new rating for the previously mentioned CRT rules.

 

[TiltedFN]

This just reads as an attempt at a stealth upgrade then. The rules for CRTs is that if the scaling chain is effected/alterer, all profiles effected by that change must also be listed and what the new tieirng should be for them.

I'm confused on how this is a "stealth upgrade". I already acknowledged what I'm aiming for with this CRT. And yes, it will affect the scaling, giving more characters tier 1. I even said that scaling will be handled in another thread, implying that there will indeed be scaling changes. And to be fair, you were the one who seemed to have issues with Merged Zamasu scaling despite this already being accepted scaling. There is nothing sneaky going on here. I've been outward about all of this.

That's the point of eventually. He was merging with the timestream and becoming one with it, to the point where he was beginning to go into different timestreams before Zeno erased him. It's a process that is actively going on, meaning he'd didn't instantly finish with the merger when achieved that form.

Okay but this would still just scale Infinite Zamasu here since 'Eventually' is still 'Overtime'. That means IZ scales to the end result of the rating just as it would be for something like tier 2. Hell, we even have a feat like that on our GT profiles.

Merged Zamasu would have to happen here. If your argument is that they shouldn't scale anymore, then they would need a new rating for the previously mentioned CRT rules.

So I'm confused, do you agree with Merged Zamasu or not? We can give those two the rating and discuss everything else in another CRT like I already said.

 

[Hasty12345]

Well, like I said in the OP, scaling should be handled in another thread since that will be a much more important. Not to mention the scaling can potentially change. I'm just trying to get across that "Eventually Low-C" doesn't work because IZ didn't get infinitely stronger during that scene; his range is Low 1-C because of the "spreading" part . And nah, even when doing the scaling thread, not every character is gonna have this; most probably won't to be honest but like I said that is for the future thread. In fact, this thread will only apply this rating to Infinite Zamasu if accepted. Merged Zamasu is a scaling chain issue which can be handled in the scaling thread separately, so even his rating won't be changed since he might potentially get downgraded when we do the scaling CRT. The scaling thread might also just conclude that no one should get it, that's also a possibility but that's not for this thread.

I'm sorry, you're losing me here. Characters scaling isn't a valid debunk to IZ's feat, and you can't hold the position IZ will be upgraded and Merged Zamasu doesn't scale but IZ didn't get stronger. This isn't making any sense.

 

[Qawsedf234]

already acknowledged what I'm aiming for with this CRT. And yes, it will affect the scaling, giving more characters tier 1. I even said that scaling will be handled in another thread, implying that there will indeed be scaling changes. And to be fair, you were the one who seemed to have issues with Merged Zamasu scaling despite this already being accepted scaling.

It's being accepted here without disclosure of who is effected by the change. Altering the scaling without specifying who is being effected is not being forthcoming in my view.

Okay but this would still just scale Infinite Zamasu here since 'Eventually' is still 'Overtime'. That means IZ scales to the end result of the rating just as it would be for something like tier 2.

Sure, he would eventually be Low 1-C when the merger was/is complete. He just didn't start at Low 1-C which is what "possibly Low 1-C" is implying. That as soon as the form was achieved he immediately got Low 1-C AP.

So I'm confused, do you agree with Merged Zamasu or not

I think IZ was fusing with the timestream and his final or potential stste would be higher. The current scaling as you stated is that there is no strength difference between IZ and MZ, meaning you're just suggesting a Low 1-C upgrade for a bunch of people.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I'm sorry, you're losing me here. Characters scaling isn't a valid debunk to IZ's feat, and you can't hold the position IZ will be upgraded and Merged Zamasu doesn't scale but IZ didn't get stronger. This isn't making any sense.

Can't say I understand what you're trying to get at here. He's just saying Infinite Zamasu wasn't growing infinitely stronger as Infinite Zamasu, because there is nothing suggesting he is. He didn't say that Infinite Zamasu wasn't stronger than Merged Zamasu.

 

[Hayato5652]

Wait a second, doesn’t this mean Zamasu has 5D HDE?
HDE ≠ AP
Why exactly should Zamasu have 5D AP when he hasn’t affected a 5D Hypertimeline?
I haven’t read the whole CRT, so if there’s any evidence, please let me know.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I'm sorry, you're losing me here. Characters scaling isn't a valid debunk to IZ's feat, and you can't hold the position IZ will be upgraded and Merged Zamasu doesn't scale but IZ didn't get stronger. This isn't making any sense.

I think he’s just saying that scaling should be discussed in another thread, and it doesn’t influence the validity of the feat.

It's being accepted here without disclosure of who is effected by the change. Altering the scaling without specifying who is being effected is not being forthcoming in my view.

The feat itself is being accepted as valid, the scaling results would be done in another thread. The nuances of who scales to said feat is what the separate thread would be for. I have no idea why the validity of the feat itself can’t be discussed, and then later who scales to it be made later.

 

[Vietthai96]

Sure, he would eventually be Low 1-C when the merger was/is complete. He just didn't start at Low 1-C which is what "possibly Low 1-C" is implying. That as soon as the form was achieved he immediately got Low 1-C AP.

oke, this is, ngl, confused me, wdym by "complete"?, because if he wasn't stopped by Zeno, he will just keep merging with timelines, and there are more than just two timelines

 

[Hasty12345]

Can't say I understand what you're trying to get at here. He's just saying Infinite Zamasu wasn't growing infinitely stronger as Infinite Zamasu, because there is nothing suggesting he is. He didn't say that Infinite Zamasu wasn't stronger than Merged Zamasu.

What I'm trying to get at is instead of talking about the validity of the feat, we're now talking about scaling as a means to disqualify the feat and bringing up scaling isn't relevant to the feat itself.

Honestly this distraction kind of just proves there's no real debunk being presented.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Tbh, I don't think anyone but Zeno could even be scaled from/to fused Zamasu, the only way it would be possible if his profile was flawed and treated them as the same, but that would be dirty.

 

[TiltedFN]

It's being accepted here without disclosure of who is effected by the change. Altering the scaling without specifying who is being effected is not being forthcoming in my view.

I mean I only wanted it to be that way to not clutter up the thread talking about both at the same time. Tier 1 is controversial. Hence why it should only be discussed if it stayed relatively tame.

Sure, he would eventually be Low 1-C when the merger was/is complete. He just didn't start at Low 1-C which is what "possibly Low 1-C" is implying. That as soon as the form was achieved he immediately got Low 1-C AP.

Right, but saying he would get Low 1-C AP at the end is wrong. It still scales to the end result since that's how Eventually/Overtime feats work. His energy would of had to be Low 1-C regardless to even start pulling off that kind of feat.

I think IZ was fusing with the timestream and his final or potential stste would be higher. The current scaling as you stated is that there is no strength difference between IZ and MZ, meaning you're just suggesting a Low 1-C upgrade for a bunch of people.

Currently, there would be more people that scale to IZ via MZ. So yes, there would be. But you're presenting that as a problem which confused me.

 

[Electronic74947]

Isn’t jiren > zamasu already accepted here anyways.

 

[Vietthai96]

Okay, i will be clear, any scaling related thing will be in different thread, let focus on the main topic which is IZ feat, and stop at that, please don't derail the thread by adding more unrelated topics to it

 

[Chariot190]

Idk chief, if scaling is in fact a thing. Discuss it here.

We've all been through this shit before, it either gets accepted and then people go "btw everyone scales lol already accepted", or the thread gets rejected because people dont know or trust what youre planning and just reject it to be safe because nobody wanted to be open about shit, one of the two is going to happen even if not intentional.

Scaling is relevant like it or not, be open about what this changes, who it changes, why it changes, and how it all comes together.
Dont split shit into multiple threads when really it's all the same topic. Qawsed is 100% right, this comes off as a sneaky stealth upgrade, that might not be the intent, and it could easily just be as simple as "it might be messy, lets do it one at a time", tbh i can see why people WOULD do that, but intent and how it's perceived or how it should happen arent the same.

Just like, explain my dudes it aint hard, and if it's legit, it's legit, like why even hide it if the feat itself is solid? One wont magically effect the other but still shoukd cover your bases properly, doubly so because not everyone who is in this thread or will be in the hypothetical next mightve been in both.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

If we're going to discuss scaling here then can it wait until after the feat has been evaluated by staff and accepted? Otherwise any scaling discussion is going to be completely worthless.

 

[Hayato5652]

Wait a second, doesn’t this mean Zamasu has 5D HDE?
HDE ≠ AP
Why exactly should Zamasu have 5D AP when he hasn’t affected a 5D Hypertimeline?
I haven’t read the whole CRT, so if there’s any evidence, please let me know.

The CRT does not provide sufficient evidence for Infinite Zamasu being Low 1-C, According to the wiki standards and considering the Dragon Ball verse, Zamasu would need to affect a hypertimeline in order to gain 5D AP. His merging with the timeline only grants him 5D HDE, not AP and not Tier 1

Low 1-C: Low Complex Multiverse level
Characters or objects who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy higher-dimensional structures that are one uncountably infinite level[note 2] above Low 2-C structures. In ordinary distribution, this corresponds to R^5 (5-dimensional real coordinate space).

 

[Chariot190]

If we're going to discuss scaling here then can it wait until after the feat has been evaluated by staff and accepted? Otherwise any scaling discussion is going to be completely worthless.

I mean thatd be preferable, obviously get the crux figured out first, but id still explain the long term plan anyway in the op so all the context is there for a full eval.

 

[StarShooter80]

If we're going to discuss scaling here then can it wait until after the feat has been evaluated by staff and accepted? Otherwise any scaling discussion is going to be completely worthless.

I agree with Cyro, it'd be weird to first discuss about who is gonna be affected by this change, who's the baseline and who's gonna upscale

And then after all that we talk about the ACTUAL feat itself, that should be handled first and foremost

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Qawsed basically, and I also agree we should preferably avoid allowing GoDs or Angels from upscaling from the eventual end point.

 

[TiltedFN]

I agree with Qawsed basically, and I also agree we should preferably avoid allowing GoDs or Angels from upscaling from the eventual end point.

Qaw never disagreed with that second part, so I'm not sure where that comes from. He was just expressing concern and curiosity with who scales.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The feat itself is being accepted as valid, the scaling results would be done in another thread.

This thread is about the upgrade and has to detail what changes with that upgrade. You cannot split it in two when it comes an AP upgrade, especially at the start of a massive scaling chain like in this instance.

oke, this is, ngl, confused me, wdym by "complete"?

When he completely fuses with Trunk's TL. He was going to go to all of the various timelines, but he started in Trunk's timeline.

I mean I only wanted it to be that way to not clutter up the thread talking about both at the same time. Tier 1 is controversial. Hence why it should only be discussed if it stayed relatively tame.

I disagree here. This means that the core scaling character should be upgraded to Low 1-C (or at least in part to Low 1-C) and then you will use the accepted thread for a separate topic to upgrade multiple other characters. This thread should list everyone who would be upgraded since the change is directly related to Zamasu's upgrade.

Currently, there would be more people that scale to IZ via MZ. So yes, there would be. But you're presenting that as a problem which confused me.

I'm presenting that as a problem as you're not addressing all the changes that would come from that in the upgrade thread itself.

Qaw never disagreed with that second part

I think he's "2-C, eventually Low 1-C" and not "2-C, possibly Low 1-C"

We've all been through this shit before, it either gets accepted and then people go "btw everyone scales lol already accepted", or the thread gets rejected because people dont know or trust what youre planning and just reject it to be safe because nobody wanted to be open about shit, one of the two is going to happen even if not intentional.

Scaling is relevant like it or not, be open about what this changes, who it changes, why it changes, and how it all comes together.
Dont split shit into multiple threads when really it's all the same topic. Qawsed is 100% right, this comes off as a sneaky stealth upgrade, that might not be the intent, and it could easily just be as simple as "it might be messy, lets do it one at a time", tbh i can see why people WOULD do that, but intent and how it's perceived or how it should happen arent the same.

More or less my point. This thread is trying to get a core scaling character upgraded and then a separate thread would be made saying "This thread already passed, so this is why X, Y, Z are all now Low 1-C as well" which goes against our policy when it comes to listing characters affected by a CRT.

 

[Vietthai96]

Okay, i have checked; rule requires scaling chain, affected characters to be clear directly in the upgrade/downgrade thread so OP should mention who will get affected

Thought in order for the thread to process smoothly, let evaluate IZ feats and rating first, because if it wasn't accepted, scaling chain is a non-factor

he CRT does not provide sufficient evidence for Infinite Zamasu being Low 1-C, According to the wiki standards and considering the Dragon Ball verse, Zamasu would need to affect a hypertimeline in order to gain 5D AP. His merging with the timeline only grants him 5D HDE, not AP and not Tier 1

i'm going to make one and only reply to you, if a character fused with the entirety of the structure, they get both HDE and AP if the structure was tiered, so what you mentioned was a completely wrong presentation of the standard. HDE =/= AP only applicable in case the HDE themselves possesses non-significant dimensions, if the dimensions are significant and can be tiered, HDE = AP, now i hope this answer your question and please, don't derail the thread anymore

When he completely fuses with Trunk's TL. He was going to go to all of the various timelines, but he started in Trunk's timeline.

This is even more confusing, ngl, because before Goku even called Zeno, he already start leaking himself into Goku's TL, do you mean this version of IZ when he show himself in Goku's TL?

 

[TiltedFN]

I disagree here. This means that the core scaling character should be upgraded to Low 1-C (or at least in part to Low 1-C) and then you will use the accepted thread for a separate topic to upgrade multiple other characters. This thread should list everyone who would be upgraded since the change is directly related to Zamasu's upgrade.

Okay, here's the blog for characters that will scale to Zamasu. Characters that are 6 universes into 2-C currently will scale to Low 1-C; with the exception of Corrupted Merged Zamasu and Vegito Blue. That's what the current scaling chain is looking like. I didn't realize it was a rule to mention which characters scale besides the one's I mentioned. And like I said. This was only me wanting to not messy up everything, since who scales shouldn't even be an issue if it's based off an already existing scaling chain. But it's fine.

I'm still confused with what 'Eventually Low 1-C' is. He would still scale to the end result regardless since it's overtime. It's the same thing as why tier 2 overtime feats don't matter. Astral Zamasu would eventually be fully Low 1-C in terms of his existence, but his AP would already be that level even prior, which is where the scaling chain comes from (and all the statements I put in the OP). Because as accepted, Merged Zamasu isn't any weaker than IZ due to there being no evidence of it. It was accepted already.

 

[Qawsedf234]

This is even more confusing, ngl, because before Goku even called Zeno, he already start leaking himself into Goku's TL, do you mean this version of IZ when he show himself in Goku's TL?

Yeah. Like by that point he'd be Low 1-C imo. I just don't think he started at Low 1-C.

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah. Like by that point he'd be Low 1-C imo. I just don't think he started at Low 1-C.

This i can agree with

 

[TiltedFN]

Yeah. Like by that point he'd be Low 1-C imo. I just don't think he started at Low 1-C.

Do you think it'd be fine to change Zamasu's scaling to, "2-C, up to Low 1-C"?

 

[GrayCraft_Dragon]

We finally here are we? Agreeeee

 

[Qawsedf234]

Do you think it'd be fine to change Zamasu's scaling to, "2-C, up to Low 1-C"?

Yeah, that's probably better than an eventual rating.

Though that doesn't change that you'd need to change some of the scaling justifications, unless you're now saying MZ should also be Low 1-C.

 

[Eseseso]

I'll agree only if the Z fighters don't scale.

 

[TiltedFN]

Yeah, that's probably better than an eventual rating.

Alright then.

Though that doesn't change that you'd need to change some of the scaling justifications, unless you're now saying MZ should also be Low 1-C.

Yeah a few minor things will need to be changed. For starters, MZ will just not gain any Low 1-C scaling from IZ, but will keep his scaling to 2-C IZ along with VB and whoever else scales. Low 1-C scaling will come later. So the scaling chain stays the same basically up until mid T.O.P.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Low 1-C scaling will come later. So the scaling chain stays the same basically up until mid T.O.P.

You'll still need to list who would scale to this, then. Like an actual list of characters that you propose should be upgraded.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

You'll still need to list who would scale to this, then. Like an actual list of characters that you propose should be upgraded.

Dragon Ball Anime: Statistical Ratings

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[CryoTheMayo]

You'll still need to list who would scale to this, then. Like an actual list of characters that you propose should be upgraded.

It seems like every character currently listed as 6 2-C would become Low 1-C via this. So the scaling would begin with UIS1 Goku who scales to a suppressed Jiren, who's energy was stated to surpass anything felt before by characters like Shin and Goku.

The blog Ice just posted is useful for determining that but for the ToP and Broly it should be:

Infinite Zamasu (2-C up to Low 1-C)
UIS1 Goku and Post-UIS2 (God forms)
Kefla
Post-SSBE Vegeta (God forms)
God of Destruction Toppo
Hit (VS Jiren)
Anilaza (Transformed)
Broly (All forms, starting with fighting God Goku)
Freeza (Broly movie, at least Golden but maybe also Final Form? Kind of vague if his Final Form is meant to be relative to SSG-level or not)
Gogeta (Broly, all forms)
Gohan (SH)
Piccolo (SH)
Goten (SH)
Trunks (SH)
Gotenks (SH)
Krillin (SH)
Gamma 1
Gamma 2
Cell Max
All Gods of Destruction (Beerus, Champa, Belmod, Sidra)
All Angels (The Grand Priest, Whis, Vados)
Super Shenron (Via wish-granting I suppose?)

There may be someone I missed but that should be like 99% of the characters impacted. If there's any contention on any of that go ahead and bring it up.

 

[KLOL506]

Dawg that better be DBH Krillin and not Base Krillin

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Dawg that better be DBH Krillin and not Base Krillin

I honestly don't care about the Krillin scaling so if someone wants to remove that I wouldn't mind at all.

 

[KLOL506]

Also I think this needs more staff approval given it's Dragon Ball.

@Planck69 @Elizhaa @LephyrTheRevanchist @Celestial_Pegasus @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Dereck03 @LordGriffin1000 @Dereck03 @Maverick_Zero_X @Ultima_Reality

@Theglassman12 @Reiner04 @ActuallySpaceMan42 @KingTempest @Catzlaflame @UchihaSlayer96 @Emirp sumitpo @Nierre @Dalesean027 @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @FinePoint @Imaginym @Godernet

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Canon low 1-C Krillin before GTA 6 yo

 

[KLOL506]

Low 1-C Krillin before GTA 6 yo

People like to blame DB for Hypertimeline shenanigans while not giving the due laurels to Chinaman wank in ErGen or DC's own Hypertime concept. The disrespect is unreal.