The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

 

[Eseseso]

I'm wondering if anything can be done with this information from Magik's solo series.

Spoiler: Magic power source

So the antagonist for the second arc of her book is a Sorceress who created her Organization's impossible space base by inverting a falling star. Additionally she states the Organization's defenses and magic is fueled by this Star.

Now, I initially didn't put much significant thought into this since falling star is a colloquialism for meteors, meteorites, and asteroids.

However while doing a reread of the series I came across this observation.

Liminal remarks on the star having Hydrostatic Equilibrium. This means that the celestial body being referenced at minimum must actually be a genuine planetoidor larger as Hydrostatic Equilibrium is what distinguishes Dwarf Planets from smaller celestial bodies such as Asteroids and Centaurs.

All of this matters because Magik then uses the entire star to fuel one of her spells in the finale.

Source on Hydrostatic Equilibrium

Interesting and consistent with stars being stated in both old and modern issues to be magical in nature.

 

[ObberGobb]

Anyone here knowledgeable on Scarlet Witch? I'm still in Silver Age stuff in my Avengers read-through, and she is shown to be relatively weak in this era, so I think she probably needs several more keys. Like she is absolutely not 1-A in this period, she hard caps at like 5-B since Giant Man is consistently stated to be the strongest Avenger at this time (this is after Thor and Iron Man left, before Hercules joined). She's probably well below that too, since she doesn't really have any AP feats beyond occasionally blowing up a computer, most of her stuff is hax and support kind of stuff. And isn't she the Avatar of the Darkhold right now, so wouldn't she be stronger than her "base?"

I'm taking notes on her, as well as every other reasonably powerful character, and I expect there will be multiple versions of her deserving of keys, since her powers and stuff have changed so much over the years.

 

[Tomfer]

so I think she probably needs several more keys

Not only her, but most of the characters with 300+ issues under their belt. They got decades worth of content.

 

[ObberGobb]

Not only her, but most of the characters with 300+ issues under their belt. They got decades worth of content.

Yeah definitely. Basically any time there is any indication of the relative power of higher-end characters, or indications of changes in their powers, I am noting them down.

Like I think I will be looking at new keys for Giant Man. Iron Man I'm honestly thinking should probably be 5-B in almost all of his armors. Enchantress, who doesn't have a profile but deserves one, would get a "weakened" key for her time in the Masters of Evil, as Odin stripped her of a lot of her power. Wonder Man might deserve multiple keys since his early appearance has very different powers than his later stuff. I'm expecting that as more characters appear, I will find more examples of things needing expansion or revision.

 

[Eseseso]

Anyone here knowledgeable on Scarlet Witch? I'm still in Silver Age stuff in my Avengers read-through, and she is shown to be relatively weak in this era, so I think she probably needs several more keys. Like she is absolutely not 1-A in this period, she hard caps at like 5-B since Giant Man is consistently stated to be the strongest Avenger at this time (this is after Thor and Iron Man left, before Hercules joined). She's probably well below that too, since she doesn't really have any AP feats beyond occasionally blowing up a computer, most of her stuff is hax and support kind of stuff. And isn't she the Avatar of the Darkhold right now, so wouldn't she be stronger than her "base?"

I'm taking notes on her, as well as every other reasonably powerful character, and I expect there will be multiple versions of her deserving of keys, since her powers and stuff have changed so much over the years.

She's one of the main focuses of my next CRT, though admittedly I'm mainly focusing on her modern stuff.

 

[Muteki616]

Anyone here knowledgeable on Scarlet Witch? I'm still in Silver Age stuff in my Avengers read-through, and she is shown to be relatively weak in this era, so I think she probably needs several more keys. Like she is absolutely not 1-A in this period, she hard caps at like 5-B since Giant Man is consistently stated to be the strongest Avenger at this time (this is after Thor and Iron Man left, before Hercules joined). She's probably well below that too, since she doesn't really have any AP feats beyond occasionally blowing up a computer, most of her stuff is hax and support kind of stuff. And isn't she the Avatar of the Darkhold right now, so wouldn't she be stronger than her "base?"

I'm taking notes on her, as well as every other reasonably powerful character, and I expect there will be multiple versions of her deserving of keys, since her powers and stuff have changed so much over the years.

I think alot of marvel characters should have “ages” keys; for like golden, silver, bronze.

bc they do change somewhat drastically
perma amps or not.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Do we accept the Power Grid in any capacity? I was hoping to revise 1610 Shocker's page and include some of his Power Grid stats.

 

[Antvasima]

Do we accept the Power Grid in any capacity? I was hoping to revise 1610 Shocker's page and include some of his Power Grid stats.

Do you mean the handbook ratings? As far as I understood, Tom Brevoort basically just spent a few minutes intuitively noting down what "felt right" for him for each character, which ended up with lots of serious logical errors and inconsistencies that we were stuck with afterwards.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Anyone here knowledgeable on Scarlet Witch? I'm still in Silver Age stuff in my Avengers read-through, and she is shown to be relatively weak in this era, so I think she probably needs several more keys. Like she is absolutely not 1-A in this period, she hard caps at like 5-B since Giant Man is consistently stated to be the strongest Avenger at this time (this is after Thor and Iron Man left, before Hercules joined). She's probably well below that too, since she doesn't really have any AP feats beyond occasionally blowing up a computer, most of her stuff is hax and support kind of stuff. And isn't she the Avatar of the Darkhold right now, so wouldn't she be stronger than her "base?"

I'm taking notes on her, as well as every other reasonably powerful character, and I expect there will be multiple versions of her deserving of keys, since her powers and stuff have changed so much over the years.

Wanda did start off as a relatively mid Probability Manipulator before becoming near-omnipotent so a Classic key seems fine.

 

[SamanPatou]

Do you mean the handbook ratings? As far as I understood, Tom Brevoort basically just spent a few minutes intuitively noting down what "felt right" for him for each character, which ended up with lots of serious logical errors and inconsistencies that we were stuck with afterwards.

I also believe the power grid has always been interpreted wrongly.
I believe it was meant to be a general indicator limited to each characters' profile, and not a universal scale made for comparison.
So, for example, two characters have intelligence level 5 doesn't really mean they're on the same level, but rather that intelligence is their strength, and so on with each stat.
Still, it's all guesswork without authority, so there's little sense in trying to make sense of it.

 

[Eseseso]

Anyone here knowledgeable on Scarlet Witch? I'm still in Silver Age stuff in my Avengers read-through, and she is shown to be relatively weak in this era, so I think she probably needs several more keys. Like she is absolutely not 1-A in this period, she hard caps at like 5-B since Giant Man is consistently stated to be the strongest Avenger at this time (this is after Thor and Iron Man left, before Hercules joined). She's probably well below that too, since she doesn't really have any AP feats beyond occasionally blowing up a computer, most of her stuff is hax and support kind of stuff. And isn't she the Avatar of the Darkhold right now, so wouldn't she be stronger than her "base?"


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I'm taking notes on her, as well as every other reasonably powerful character, and I expect there will be multiple versions of her deserving of keys, since her powers and stuff have changed so much over the years.

Wanda did start off as a relatively mid Probability Manipulator before becoming near-omnipotent so a Classic key seems fine.

I wouldn't be opposed to a classic key so long as her modern key keeps all her classic key's powers in addition to her own stuff. But yeah, stuff like her being a high-tier sorceress isn't really shown until her modern key (she is shown in Classic issues to have magic but not to that level), plus her current self lacks her classic/house of M version's mental instability.

Plus I'm all for smurf street tiers.

 

[MrKerf]

I also believe the power grid has always been interpreted wrongly.
I believe it was meant to be a general indicator limited to each characters' profile, and not a universal scale made for comparison.
So, for example, two characters have intelligence level 5 doesn't really mean they're on the same level, but rather that intelligence is their strength, and so on with each stat.
Still, it's all guesswork without authority, so there's little sense in trying to make sense of it.

Hmm, I have looked into some handbooks recently. Would it be alright to use as a supplemental info (ex. "[...], additionally character X was indicated by Power Grid to be in the same realm of Intelligence as Character Y (both 5 in Intelligence)?

 

[ObberGobb]

I think supplemental evidence works, at least for intelligence

 

[Eseseso]

I think supplemental evidence works, at least for intelligence

That, and for supporting/explaining certain things in the story like abilities and whatnot through useful context.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Alert!! Important scaling CRT
Fixing our 5-B's, it took a while but the thread to find feats to scale them is here.

The Mah-vel Unfawking Thread Step Three: I Came Back with Milk

i forgor In step 1 we established the Grey Hulk feat is an outlier and as such, dogshit to use. In step 1.5 we established the Champion of the Universe is a bad character to scale 5-Bs from, and as such he isn't scaleable anymore. In step 2 we established that the rest of the feats were...

vsbattles.com

 

[SamanPatou]

Howdy folks, I've hijacked another Ghost Rider thread, come and speak thy mind!

 

[ObberGobb]

Ok I hate to say this while a big Low Heralds revision just started, but I've been reading and re-reading tons of comics recently, and looking through all sorts of respect threads and vs battles on other sites... and I'm starting to really strongly think that there is no such thing as Low/Mid/High Herald. Narratively I don't think I've read anything that implies massive splits between those levels. The only narrative implication is that gods like Thor and Hercules are well above everyone else. Like Colossus is shown to be relative to Gladiator in Claremont's X-Men, Iron Man has fought Heralds of Galactus many times (including in his supposedly Tier 8 classic armors), Ronan can fight evenly against Heralds like Silver Surfer, the Annihilators seem narratively implied to be relative to each other, and many more. I don't want to do anything with this yet, I want to do more reading and info gathering, but in my opinion we should have "Herald Tier" and "God Tier" as two separate things. That would mean very few scale to Low 1-C or any other godly feats, especially not Thor and Hercules' 1-A feats, and that I think all Low and Mid Heralds should just scale to each other. Unless someone has scans that show a very clear narrative split between the two levels, but I don't think there is one.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Ok I hate to say this while a big Low Heralds revision just started, but I've been reading and re-reading tons of comics recently, and looking through all sorts of respect threads and vs battles on other sites... and I'm starting to really strongly think that there is no such thing as Low/Mid/High Herald. Narratively I don't think I've read anything that implies massive splits between those levels. The only narrative implication is that gods like Thor and Hercules are well above everyone else. Like Colossus is shown to be relative to Gladiator in Claremont's X-Men, Iron Man has fought Heralds of Galactus many times (including in his supposedly Tier 8 classic armors), Ronan can fight evenly against Heralds like Silver Surfer, the Annihilators seem narratively implied to be relative to each other, and many more. I don't want to do anything with this yet, I want to do more reading and info gathering, but in my opinion we should have "Herald Tier" and "God Tier" as two separate things. That would mean very few scale to Low 1-C or any other godly feats, especially not Thor and Hercules' 1-A feats, and that I think all Low and Mid Heralds should just scale to each other. Unless someone has scans that show a very clear narrative split between the two levels, but I don't think there is one.

I'm also not sure what are low and mid heralds I mean in the Marvel verse page the heralds range from 3-C to Low 1-C and the 5-Bs are Upper mid tiers.
I know Ronan I made the CRT about him recently and I put there multiple times where he went against 3-Cs and overall he stomps most 5-Bs most of that is attributed to universal weapon rather than ronan himself.

 

[Antvasima]

Sigh...

So, as predicted, Storm effortlessly killed a somehow billion years old Mesopotamian storm god who was somehow second only to The One Above All in power, and is also suddenly a master of several forms of martial arts that she was never shown training in, and we also learned the informed ability that she is a master strategist without remotely displaying any master strategy in conjunction.

Given that the Marvel Universe used to be an absolutely dystopian cosmic horror mess with the forces of good hopelessly outmatched by casually genocidal cosmic entities, eldritch abominations, and demonic entities, I suppose that breaking the setting by overpowering some of the comparative "good" guys/girls may be the lesser evil, even though the setting is thoroughly irrepairably broken at this point, but Storm is currently and recently written as an absolutely arrogant, unlikeable, uninteresting, hollow, and 1-dimensional Mary Suggs (a Mary Sue taken to Suggsian caricature parody extremes) cardboard character without any narrative point beyond being an obscenely exaggerated "Memememememememebestestbestestbestestbestestbestest!!!!!!!!!!!!! Everybodyelseworthlessandinferiortome'ssupremacy!!!!!!!!!!! Bowtomememememememememememebestever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" egostistical power trip.

The writer has done some research into the mechanics of Marvel's cosmic history though. I will give him that at least.

The next storyarc will apparently feature Storm taking on an army of Marvel Zombies and the embodiment of Death on her own, to further hammer home that everybody else are worthless and insignificant compared to Mary Suggs #1.

 

[ObberGobb]

Sigh...

So, as predicted, Storm effortlessly killed a somehow billion years old Mesopotamian storm god who was somehow second only to The One Above All in power, and is also suddenly a master of several forms of martial arts that she was never shown training in, and we also learned the informed ability that she is a master strategist without remotely displaying any master strategy in conjunction.

Given that the Marvel Universe used to be an absolutely dystopian cosmic horror mess with the forces of good hopelessly outmatched by casually genocidal cosmic entities, eldritch abominations, and demonic entities, I suppose that breaking the setting by overpowering some of the comparative "good" guys/girls may be the lesser evil, even though the setting is thoroughly irrepairably broken at this point, but Storm is currently and recently written as an absolutely arrogant, unlikeable, uninteresting, hollow, and 1-dimensional Mary Suggs (a Mary Sue taken to Suggsian caricature parody extremes) cardboard character without any narrative point beyond being an obscenely exaggerated "Memememememememe bestestbestestbestestbestestbestest!!!!!!!!!!!!! Everybodyelseworthlessandinferiortome'ssupremacy!!!!!!!!!!! Bowtomememememememememememebestever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" egostistical power trip.

The writer has done some research into the mechanics of Marvel's cosmic history though. I will give him that at least.

I really hate this trend of making heroes stronger than Abstracts. Like Iron Man getting the Power Cosmic and somehow being more powerful than the Living Tribunal.

 

[Antvasima]

I really hate this trend of making heroes stronger than Abstracts. Like Iron Man getting the Power Cosmic and somehow being more powerful than the Living Tribunal.

Wasn't Iron Man with the Power Cosmic just more powerful than Korvac, and wasn't it just extremely temporary? For Storm it is the new status quo.

 

[MrKerf]

Sigh...

So, as predicted, Storm effortlessly killed a somehow billion years old Mesopotamian storm god who was somehow second only to The One Above All in power, and is also suddenly a master of several forms of martial arts that she was never shown training in, and we also learned the informed ability that she is a master strategist without remotely displaying any master strategy in conjunction.

Given that the Marvel Universe used to be an absolutely dystopian cosmic horror mess with the forces of good hopelessly outmatched by casually genocidal cosmic entities, eldritch abominations, and demonic entities, I suppose that breaking the setting by overpowering some of the comparative "good" guys/girls may be the lesser evil, even though the setting is thoroughly irrepairably broken at this point, but Storm is currently and recently written as an absolutely arrogant, unlikeable, uninteresting, hollow, and 1-dimensional Mary Suggs (a Mary Sue taken to Suggsian caricature parody extremes) cardboard character without any narrative point beyond being an obscenely exaggerated "Memememememememebestestbestestbestestbestestbestest!!!!!!!!!!!!! Everybodyelseworthlessandinferiortome'ssupremacy!!!!!!!!!!! Bowtomememememememememememebestever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" egostistical power trip.

The writer has done some research into the mechanics of Marvel's cosmic history though. I will give him that at least.

The next storyarc will apparently feature Storm taking on an army of Marvel Zombies and the embodiment of Death on her own, to further hammer home that everybody else are worthless and insignificant compared to Mary Suggs #1.

I really want to be a fly on the wall of Marvel editors who approved allthat.

 

[ObberGobb]

Wasn't Iron Man with the Power Cosmic just more powerful than Korvac, and wasn't it just extremely temporary? For Storm it is the new status quo.

Yes, but Korvac defeated all the cosmic entities simultaneously. As for Storm, I thought it was a temporary insane power-up... if that's her new status quo that is ridiculous

 

[Antvasima]

I really want to be a fly on the wall of Marvel editors who approved allthat.

Yes. They don't seem to be doing their jobs to say the least, or maybe they just want to deliberately annoy powerscalers and appease the most rabid Storm fanbase at the same time.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but Korvac defeated all the cosmic entities simultaneously.

Okay. That also seems very silly and ridiculous, unless they were just M-bodies.

As for Storm, I thought it was a temporary insane power-up... if that's her new status quo that is ridiculous

Yes. It unfortunately seems so. Al Ewing initiated wanking her to extremely logical degrees... after which he extremely downplayed Thor, although I do not know whether or not that is a combined deliberate agenda... and now Murewa Ayodele is building on that by turning Storm almost Suggsian in ridiculousness.

It would be much easier to endure this if Storm was at least written as being reasonably likeable like Jean Grey is, but she mostly just reads like pure egotistical arrogance to me.

 

[Eseseso]

Yes, but Korvac defeated all the cosmic entities simultaneously. As for Storm, I thought it was a temporary insane power-up... if that's her new status quo that is ridiculous

Only thing I liked about that run was Iron Man roasting Doom for annihilating a universe

 

[Antvasima]

Only thing I liked about that run was Iron Man roasting Doom for annihilating a universe

Yes, and a kind and utopian universe at that. That should never be forgotten or forgiven.

By the way, fun fact: In "X-Men Black" just some years ago, Emma Frost casually forced a building full of people to ra pe and murder each other, if I remember correctly, and the X-Men and their writers somehow still not only consider her fully acceptable as a member, but as a good role model.

 

[MrKerf]

It would be much easier to endure this if Storm was at least written as being reasonably likeable like Jean Grey is, but she mostly just reads like pure egotistical arrogance to me.

Nooo, really? Does the whole "I am a goddess, I am Omega of Omegas, the X-Man, the best of the best..." sound arrogant to you? Unthinkable!

By the way, fun fact: In "X-Men Black" just some years ago, Emma Frost casually forced a building full of people to ra pe and murder each other

O_O That has to be made up.... I mean, Emma was never the beacon of righteousness, but...

 

[Eseseso]

Nooo, really? Does the whole "I am a goddess, I am Omega of Omegas, the X-Man, the best of the best..." sound arrogant to you? Unthinkable!

For real, at least Scarlet Witch in her (well-written) current runs is chill and enjoyable to watch despite her being busted af. She still rightfully views herself as a powerful sorceress but doesn't let it go to her head.

O_O That has to be made up.... I mean, Emma was never the beacon of righteousness, but...

She does mentally make people make out with each other on some floors and attack each other on other floors. So Ant is barely exaggerating, if at all.

 

[Antvasima]

Nooo, really? Does the whole "I am a goddess, I am Omega of Omegas, the X-Man, the best of the best..." sound arrogant to you? Unthinkable!

Heh.

O_O That has to be made up.... I mean, Emma was never the beacon of righteousness, but...

It fits with her torture and mindrape enthusiastic supremacist villainous past, but it actually happened just some years ago. I might misremember details, but I do not think so.

 

[Antvasima]

She does mentally make people make out with each other on some floors and attack each other on other floors. So Ant is barely exaggerating, if at all.

Okay. That was the way I remembered it at least.

Mystique also behaved like a complete monster in the X-Men Black comicbook series if I recall correctly.

 

[Jimmy.robinson.5099]

Okay. That was the way I remembered it at least.

Mystique also behaved like a complete monster in the X-Men Black comicbook series if I recall correctly.

I heard Mojo was surprisingly decent in his issue? Then again, IDK much about Mojo, so I'm not entirely sure what they meant by that in the grand scheme of things...

 

[AcidSilver]

This is just Convergence but for Marvel! You think you're slick but I know exactly what this is, Gage!

Yes, but Korvac defeated all the cosmic entities simultaneously. As for Storm, I thought it was a temporary insane power-up... if that's her new status quo that is ridiculous

Speaking of Korvac ^

 

[Excellence616]

This is just Convergence but for Marvel! You think you're slick but I know exactly what this is, Gage!

Speaking of Korvac ^

Which comic is that?

 

[Jimmy.robinson.5099]

This is just Convergence but for Marvel! You think you're slick but I know exactly what this is, Gage!

Speaking of Korvac ^

Is this the one that's gonna have CrossGen characters show up?

 

[Antvasima]

Is this the one that's gonna have CrossGen characters show up?

I think so, yes.

 

[AcidSilver]

Which comic is that?

Battleworld

 

[SamanPatou]

Hello there, heroes and villains, come and check my latest labor, a Howard the Duck revision!

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Tbh the Storm thing seems par for the course to me.

It's mandatory upon becoming a comic writer that you give your favorite character a tier 1 feat at some point. Doesn't need to be consistent or anything, but you gotta do it out of tradition. Ice Man, Black Panther, Daredevil, etc. They've all done it and then got right back to business.

And lest we forget The Deathstroke Moment™.

Like, I'd have to have Cassandra Cain outskill and defeat Michael Demiurgos. Or have Lizard overpower and consume a Beyonder variant and become the representative of animal savagery on the Cosmic Court, or something.
Until then I wouldn't be a true comic writer.