Average Travel Speed Until Proven Otherwise

[Phoenks]

The title of the thread is basically the summary of this post.

I am suggesting that all characters on the wiki be assumed to have average human travel speed, until a revision or clarification is made to provide evidence for the contrary.

Permission for this staff post was given by @Qawsedf234.

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Why?​

The reason mostly stems from our current speed equalization rules, which state the following:

The combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight, etc.

This is a lot more important than some people realize in a lot of versus matches, because characters tend to have far faster combat speed than movement speed. Take Reinhard van Astrea, for example, a character that correctly distinguishes between multiple different speed types.

He has Massively Hypersonic+ travel speed with FTL combat speed. His combat speed is over 200 times faster than his travel speed. Because that multiplier remains the same when he is equalized down to someone else's level, it has the potential to make him a statue in movement speed.

As an example, if he goes against a character with Subsonic speed, whose speed values are not properly indexed or separated, his travel speed ends up being reduced to the point that he practically becomes a statue in comparison to them. When in many cases, had that character's movement speed been properly indexed, this would not be an issue whatsoever.

This basically makes it so that well-indexed characters (those which properly separate speed tiers) are inherently at a disadvantage when put against less well-indexed characters (those that don't properly separate speed tiers, and instead simply list the "combat speed") in versus threads. Because they end up getting turned into statues by the versus thread rules in a lot of matchups.

I also believe it would encourage better indexing, perhaps even finally getting people to start seriously separating the multiple different types of speed we have. Those who are involved in versus matches aren't going to want to leave their character with the default "average" movement speed.

This shouldn't actually require too much immediate work to introduce. We don't have to edit pages. We can just start assuming that a character's movement speed is average human until the page either clarifies that their movement speed scales to the combat speed, or the travel speed is added separated and supported by feats. In cases where it is self-evident all forms of speed scale to the listed speed, this doesn't matter. And add a rule onto the versus thread rules to make that official.

That's about it. Further specifics can be discussed on the thread.

 

[Dalesean027]

I mean we SHOULD already be doing this but yeah people definitely need to make a bigger effort to list characters travel/movement speed separately from the combat speeds


So yeah I do ofc agree with this

 

[KLOL506]

@DontTalkDT @Agnaa @Mr. Bambu @DarkDragonMedeus @Damage3245 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Celestial_Pegasus @Planck69 @Just_a_Random_Butler @SamanPatou @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Crabwhale @GrathOfLux @Dereck03 @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Abstractions

 

[Damage3245]

The biggest concern for me is that this should obviously apply only to human or near-human characters. There are plenty of characters with abnormal sizes and body shapes that wouldn't necessarily move like a human would by default.

 

[Phoenks]

The biggest concern for me is that this should obviously apply only to human or near-human characters. There are plenty of characters with abnormal sizes and body shapes that wouldn't necessarily move like a human would by default.

I would absolutely agree with it being case-by-case when it comes to non-human characters.

Though, I think that problem will likely fix itself when feats and scaling come into play. As for characters who are like, anthro dolphins or monkeys and such, they could probably scale to their real-life counterparts as an absolute baseline.

 

[DMUA]

He has Massively Hypersonic+ movement speed with FTL combat speed. His combat speed is over 200 times faster than his movement speed. Because that multiplier remains the same when he is equalized down to someone else's level, it has the potential to make him a statue in movement speed.

As an example, if he goes against a character with Subsonic speed, whose speed values are not properly indexed or separated, his movement speed ends up being reduced to the point that he practically becomes a statue in comparison to them. When in many cases, had that character's movement speed been properly indexed, this would not be an issue whatsoever.

I'm noticing that it says "Travel" speed, rather than "Movement". I don't think they're intended to be one and the same- after all, if combat speed is the speed you're meant to be able to fight, doesn't it stand to reason you can move around in that instance as well? I've always understood the distinction to be that travel speed is over a very long distance (Thus covering stuff like a character wanting to get to a different location), while combat is just the movement you'd need to close some distance and dodge out of the way of attacks, otherwise... Yeah they'd just look like a statue waving a sword around in their home series, which isn't really something you see with this kind of stuff.

I also agree with what Wok is going to post on this thread soon enough, but in case he doesn't do that, I also think it's a bit ill advised to do a site-sweeping revision under this idea when you can evaluate whether a character's travel speed being consistently lower or higher in an individual case

 

[Phoenks]

I'm noticing that it says "Travel" speed, rather than "Movement". I don't think they're intended to be one and the same- after all, if combat speed is the speed you're meant to be able to fight, doesn't it stand to reason you can move around in that instance as well? I've always understood the distinction to be that travel speed is over a very long distance (Thus covering stuff like a character wanting to get to a different location), while combat is just the movement you'd need to close some distance and dodge out of the way of attacks, otherwise... Yeah they'd just look like a statue waving a sword around in their home series, which isn't really something you see with this kind of stuff.

Oh, I just accidently used movement speed instead of travel. Though movement is probably fine to say since it also includes flight speed methinks.

Dodging out of the way of attacks is possible to an extent with combat speed, such as close combat strikes, projectiles, and anything that doesn't require you to do more than a few movements. But trying to dodge across any notable amount of distance is where you require travel speed. An example would be if you were trying to dodge a large scale AoE attack or any other form of attack that covers a large amount of distance.

Basically, the moment you have to actually walk or run away from something, it stops being your combat speed.

Similarly, if a character with FTL travel speed attacks you, and you are limited to like Supersonic+ in that category, even if combat speed is equalized, that character's travel speed could allow them abuse their movements a lot. Scattering around you while you're unable to really utilize the same amount of mobility in comparison. It could make for a pretty big difference in a fight.

I also agree with what Wok is going to post on this thread soon enough, but in case he doesn't do that, I also think it's a bit ill advised to do a site-sweeping revision under this idea when you can evaluate whether a character's travel speed being consistently lower or higher in an individual case

I'll wait to see what the admins say, but I specifically did it this way because it would be a super big hassle to outright force every page to add travel speed.

The versus rule accomplishes the same thing, makes immediate changes in the area that really matters for such a thing (versus threads), and encourages users to naturally add the movement speed ratings to pages anyway, thereby making the site's indexing better overall.

I'm not opposed to doing it the other way, where this is instead a revision forcing the separation of speeds on all pages. I would love for pages to finally start doing that, but it seems like a big obligation and I'm not sure the wiki has the resources for such a massive overhaul at the moment.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I mean, it's kind of hard to judge, but I think fully feral animal characters (Not talking anthropomorphic) should have movement speed being comparable to whatever animal species at minimum. As for other concerns, I also think large sized or small sized characters may be a different story. Kind of reasonable to assume really tiny characters are below average human if they don't have any notable movement speed feats. Likewise, a lot of giant characters who are still fairly agile for their size are almost always basically superhuman.

 

[Antvasima]

Is it suggested here that we should never use common sense to scale extremely athletic or superhuman characters higher in running speed than average real world humans if we do not have any calculations for it? That would seem unwise.

 

[Dalesean027]

Think the OP is being taken ultra hyper literal, they are simply saying in case by case for those who don't have proper travel speeds calculated or justified to just use whatever average safe measure is for the profile in question


If its some kind of animal it'd default to being an animal, if just some dude then average human travel works, they are ultra athletic or something then just default to whatever is sensible but the whole point is that no matter what the speed is rated at profiles need to make this distinction regardless since many do lack the appropriate seperate rating for travel speed

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems more sensible. But wouldn't it be better if we give clearly superhuman characters with no calculations "Unknown" speed instead?

 

[Agnaa]

Okay. That seems more sensible. But wouldn't it be better if we give clearly superhuman characters with no calculations "Unknown" speed instead?

This is about interpretation in versus threads, not indexing. Effectively, such characters would have "Unknown", but in versus threads we would lowball that (to average human, for humanoid characters).

I agree with the OP, and tried to operate this way myself.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Problem is that that isn't in line with how speed values are currently treated, meaning that this effectively falsifies speed values on existing profiles.
As expressed in the last thread on a topic similar to this, speed ratings without clarifications are typically assumed to mean combat speed and combat speed is typically assumed to include the low distance movements done in combats, such as dodging or traveling a few meters.
Travel speed is typically just clarified for people who for reasons like stamina, acceleration or writing are assumed to move at a different average speed over long distances than they would do in a typical combat encounter.
Given, that exact handling of these practices have been inconsistent as has been pointed out in that last thread as well.

Still, defaulting to the assumption which you suggest means to effectively falsify ratings on a massive scale, including for characters for which consideration was put into the matter.

The best solution is a gradual improvement of profiles, after tightening the standards.
Or, if a more immediate solution is necessary, it's just to decouple vsthreads from profiles a little. Like, absolutely nothing stops us from just saying "look at the character's speed feats and decide how they exactly work out in vsthreads if vagueness is present". There's no reason to stubbornly insist that the absence of a keyword invalidates the feats.

Edit: I would also want to point out that we don't have a speed rating called "Movement Speed". Contextually I assume OP means travel speed, but it's important to draw a clear distinction, as combat speed includes movement of the whole body and hence could also be called a movement speed.

 

[Agnaa]

Problem is that that isn't in line with how speed values are currently treated, meaning that this effectively falsifies speed values on existing profiles.
As expressed in the last thread on a topic similar to this, speed ratings without clarifications are typically assumed to mean combat speed and combat speed is typically assumed to include the low distance movements done in combats, such as dodging or traveling a few meters.
Travel speed is typically just clarified for people who for reasons like stamina, acceleration or writing are assumed to move at a different average speed over long distances than they would do in a typical combat encounter.
Given, that exact handling of these practices have been inconsistent as has been pointed out in that last thread as well.

For those curious, this is the thread in question.

Or, if a more immediate solution is necessary, it's just to decouple vsthreads from profiles a little. Like, absolutely nothing stops us from just saying "look at the character's speed feats and decide how they exactly work out in vsthreads if vagueness is present". There's no reason to stubbornly insist that the absence of a keyword invalidates the feats.

I kinda like this one tbh.

Doing something like the OP would just have people rush to make changes in line with such information when versus threads come up.

 

[Antvasima]

This is about interpretation in versus threads, not indexing. Effectively, such characters would have "Unknown", but in versus threads we would lowball that (to average human, for humanoid characters).

I agree with the OP, and tried to operate this way myself.

Okay. That is different then. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Phoenks]

Or, if a more immediate solution is necessary, it's just to decouple vsthreads from profiles a little. Like, absolutely nothing stops us from just saying "look at the character's speed feats and decide how they exactly work out in vsthreads if vagueness is present". There's no reason to stubbornly insist that the absence of a keyword invalidates the feats.

If what you are suggesting is that we can also just evaluate and "prove" how a character's speed works and is distinguished in the versus threads themselves, I have absolutely no issues with that solution either. In fact, it sounds like an even better idea. The only reason I didn't suggest that was because I was unaware we could be that flexible lol. Usually we are strictly "by the profile" on versus threads.

That would still be "[lowest reasonable assumption] travel speed until proven otherwise," but you'd be able to 'prove it' on the thread itself.

Sounds good to me! Accomplishes much of the same thing I was going for.