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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

McFriesGuy075 said:
Isn't the Shuffle cast reaching the Temple of Light (center of Maginaryworld) from the entrance of 4th Dimension Space an Infinite speed feat?
Click to expand...
That's only if Maginaryworld is an infinite space, which rn we only have two pieces of evidence for it and they're both "maybe?"

Plus, it might not even be an infinite speed feat bc it's in the center within the infinity, they didn't have to cross an infinity to reach it
 
TheStinkeer said:
That's only if Maginaryworld is an infinite space, which rn we only have two pieces of evidence for it and they're both "maybe?"

Plus, it might not even be an infinite speed feat bc it's in the center within the infinity, they didn't have to cross an infinity to reach it
Click to expand...
Reaching the "center" of something infinitely sized HAS to be an Infinite speed feat.
 
TheStinkeer said:
Solaris scaling is a bit weird with the whole ENG's "dimensional anchoring" and JP's "Light shells of this dimension are keeping him alive." Are the light shells still just as durable as Solaris to reasonably scale to his super/extra-dimensional being? And the Immeasurable speed feat of dodging the lasers that move throughout all of time could also be just due to the game being badly made. Plus Sonic being able to attack Solaris before he can cross his arms is also confusing to scale because it could be immeasurable because Solaris exists in the past, present, and future, but then how much of Sonic attacking is the future, does that even apply to combat?

Gens does have Sonic restoring space-time no matter the version, but that's a little unquantifiable. Plus "flying through the end of time" is also a problem as it's in the encyclospeedia, which isn't always the most reliable source because of its goofs minus when it confirms something consistently stated. Plus, space-time has already been erased

And Forces Null Space feat is pretty good, albeit Null Space's infinite size can be a bit controversial. Asides from that, all that needs to be proved is that Sonic got faster and that Super Sonic is faster than a double boost
Click to expand...
No, Gen's immeasurable speed tiering is due to him accelerating through time, which is easily Immeasurable speed. Super Sonic "flying through the end of time" is just an enforcement of his base speed that could already accelerate through time.

Solaris obviously scales above everything else in the verse and being dimensionally-superior to stuff like Maginaryworld, which easily holds a 4-D space with Void being 5-D through raw upscaling as he was threatening the existence of the Preciousstone, which not only houses all dreams, but the aforementioned 4-D space. The immeasurable speed feat doesn't come from Sonic dodging lasers, it comes from him being able to move through the dimension of time in which it was merely referred to as "The Present" with no real discernment of where and when. The attacks Solaris performs moved throughout time and dimensions due to Solaris's nature of being omnipresent throughout all of space-time. The game being "badly made" has no bearing on scaling. Sonic isn't attacking the future, he's attacking Solaris on one instance of time while Shadow and Silver take care of the other eras. All this means is that Sonic is capable of affecting higher-dimensional beings who possess temporal/dimensional-omnipresence.

Forces's Null Space feat isn't even controversial. It's literally referred to as an endless void of nothingness segregated from all dimensions. All Sonic did was outrun the bounds of its sphere of influence with raw speed. It was only limited in size compared to the speed at which Sonic was going. This is assumed DUE to the statements of it being infinite in size. Eggman had no real reason to lie or put on airs here. Context matters in regards to debating and, in this specific instance, there's no reason to believe Eggman is having cap in his rap, here. Even if Sonic DID Double Boost, half of an endless or higher number is still an endless or higher number.
 
TheStinkeer said:
I really like how in the Japanese version of SA2, instead of saying "don't worry Mr. President!" Sonic says "Don't get so worked up." It's a lot more in-character imo.
Image

And just in case because I don't know the full accuracy/reliability of Windii's translations, I also checked the same line through jisho and such and it generally seems to mean "don't get worked up."
Click to expand...
The Japanese translations are usually more accurate to the characters.
 
ZothythoTheNephalem said:
No, Gen's immeasurable speed tiering is due to him accelerating through time, which is easily Immeasurable speed. Super Sonic "flying through the end of time" is just an enforcement of his base speed that could already accelerate through time.

Solaris obviously scales above everything else in the verse and being dimensionally-superior to stuff like Maginaryworld, which easily holds a 4-D space with Void being 5-D through raw upscaling as he was threatening the existence of the Preciousstone, which not only houses all dreams, but the aforementioned 4-D space. The immeasurable speed feat doesn't come from Sonic dodging lasers, it comes from him being able to move through the dimension of time in which it was merely referred to as "The Present" with no real discernment of where and when. The attacks Solaris performs moved throughout time and dimensions due to Solaris's nature of being omnipresent throughout all of space-time. The game being "badly made" has no bearing on scaling. Sonic isn't attacking the future, he's attacking Solaris on one instance of time while Shadow and Silver take care of the other eras. All this means is that Sonic is capable of affecting higher-dimensional beings who possess temporal/dimensional-omnipresence.

Forces's Null Space feat isn't even controversial. It's literally referred to as an endless void of nothingness segregated from all dimensions. All Sonic did was outrun the bounds of its sphere of influence with raw speed. It was only limited in size compared to the speed at which Sonic was going. This is assumed DUE to the statements of it being infinite in size. Eggman had no real reason to lie or put on airs here. Context matters in regards to debating and, in this specific instance, there's no reason to believe Eggman is having cap in his rap, here. Even if Sonic DID Double Boost, half of an endless or higher number is still an endless or higher number.
Click to expand...
Gens statement of accelerating through time isn't in the English version anymore, sadly. Ian Flynn hates Sonic characters doing impressive stuff and wants them to be frauds 💔
Plus, the statement could just be referring to Sonic accelerating through the sort of different time periods that were erased, time no longer exists after all.

I know Solaris scales above everything in the verse, but I'm asking do his light shells reach a similar level of durability? They're explained to be anchored to Sonic's dimension/keeping him alive in this dimension, and Sonic's main AP feat against Solaris that isn't against his consciousness is the light shells. Though fair on the speed scaling, I'm wanting to believe it cause I gotta glaze Sonic, but yknow how it is

Controversial isn't the best word, but the evidence for it includes Eggman's statement of wandering Null Space for eternity in Japanese (could be exaggeration, though.) An unused statement from Sonic, and finally the encyclospeedia which already has its own issues of goofs. I do agree with Null Space being infinite but you can see where people would try to argue otherwise.
 
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TheStinkeer said:
Gens statement of accelerating through time isn't in the English version anymore, sadly. Ian Flynn hates Sonic characters doing impressive stuff and wants them to be frauds 💔
Plus, the statement could just be referring to Sonic accelerating through the sort of different time periods that were erased, time no longer exists after all.

I know Solaris scales above everything in the verse, but I'm asking do his light shells reach a similar level of durability? They're explained to be anchored to Sonic's dimension/keeping him alive in this dimension, and Sonic's main AP feat against Solaris that isn't against his consciousness is the light shells. Though fair on the speed scaling, I'm wanting to believe it cause I gotta glaze Sonic, but yknow how it is

Controversial isn't the best word, but the evidence for it includes Eggman's statement of wandering Null Space for eternity in Japanese (could be exaggeration, though.) An unused statement from Sonic, and finally the encyclospeedia which already has its own issues of goofs. I do agree with Null Space being infinite but you can see where people would try to argue otherwise.
Click to expand...
It not being in the remake doesn't retcon it happening. Two things can happen without being opposed to one another. Just like how we take both ENG and JP statements. Also, the statement COULD mean any other interpretation, but for a speed character and for a game that's all about TIME, I think it's a lil evident. That and simply accelerating through different periods of time would mean he'd have to possess a level of speed required to even do so in the first place. Time not existing isn't an issue as Tails explicitly states that Sonic restores reality and time via his speed.

Also, why wouldn't they scale to his durability? This seems a very pedantic argument, tbh. It's like saying if I break a door down, I'm letting all of the air from outside in. I mean sure, but that doesn't make a door any less durable and there's literally nothing else to go off of. Could simply just be a higher-dimensional shell of light that is attached to Solaris. A turtle shell keeps a turtle alive due to it being connected to its spine and organs and all. Like, who cares about this specific thing? Doesn't even matter, truly.

Also people trying to argue Null Space otherwise just don't really know how to use context lol. This is the same guy who escaped White Space, which effectively has the same properties. Not only so, but unused statements aren't canon. It's as canon as Terios as an individual character. Just isn't.
 
ZothythoTheNephalem said:
It not being in the remake doesn't retcon it happening. Two things can happen without being opposed to one another. Just like how we take both ENG and JP statements. Also, the statement COULD mean any other interpretation, but for a speed character and for a game that's all about TIME, I think it's a lil evident. That and simply accelerating through different periods of time would mean he'd have to possess a level of speed required to even do so in the first place. Time not existing isn't an issue as Tails explicitly states that Sonic restores reality and time via his speed.

Also, why wouldn't they scale to his durability? This seems a very pedantic argument, tbh. It's like saying if I break a door down, I'm letting all of the air from outside in. I mean sure, but that doesn't make a door any less durable and there's literally nothing else to go off of. Could simply just be a higher-dimensional shell of light that is attached to Solaris. A turtle shell keeps a turtle alive due to it being connected to its spine and organs and all. Like, who cares about this specific thing? Doesn't even matter, truly.

Also people trying to argue Null Space otherwise just don't really know how to use context lol. This is the same guy who escaped White Space, which effectively has the same properties. Not only so, but unused statements aren't canon. It's as canon as Terios as an individual character. Just isn't.
Click to expand...
Eh the whole remakes and different languages is a whole other can of worms that's handled completely differently on other sites so probably best to leave that for another time. As for the time periods, all these erased time periods are in White Space together, and Rouge puts it as a sort of time hub. It's almost like walking through a portal, just that all the portals are erased space-time in this case unless a hedgehog restored it. And restoring reality and time with speed is a little unquantifiable, are there any examples of other characters doing this and the speed feats they get?

In my defense, I want to see possible counter arguments covered. Plus it's a little different from a door or a shell because it's stated to be lower-dimensional than Solaris himself which COULD cause issues to the AP and Durability. But again, I'm not trying to be super pedant or anything, I just wanna cover possible arguments

Also the unused statement not being canon is kinda my point, Sonic adds evidence towards Null Space being infinite in the unused dialogue, but it's unused
 
If we're talking about our Sonic scaling takes I might as well join in.

Personally I think that modern Sonic in base is  Low 2-C for the scaling provided by the story book games as well as by him fighting thing's powered by Paradox Prisim shards in Sonic prime. That said I disagree with 2-C because I think the reasoning that led us to conclude that Sonic's universe is a Dragon Ball esc macrocosm is circular because we assume that all of the universes in the shatterverse are regular sized universes and therefore the original universe is six times larger however the opposite case is also logically consistent if the shatterverses are 1/6th the size of the original universe while the main universe is just normal. Also I think our reasoning that the shatterverses have to be the size of a "normal" universe just because they are called universes is really dumb, after all the main universe is also called a universe even though it's apparently supposed to be six times bigger than other structures that are called universes so by our own logic being differently sized compared to a "normal" universe doesn't mean that the smaller or bigger universe...isn't a universe. Additionally the main universe should be Low 2-C anyways because it is a single space-time even if it were larger than a normal universe for the same reason that the Dragon Ball macrocosm was that tier before it was proven that hell, heaven and the world of the living were seperate space-times.

Anyways that's my maybe hot take.
 
TheStinkeer said:
Eh the whole remakes and different languages is a whole other can of worms that's handled completely differently on other sites so probably best to leave that for another time. As for the time periods, all these erased time periods are in White Space together, and Rouge puts it as a sort of time hub. It's almost like walking through a portal, just that all the portals are erased space-time in this case unless a hedgehog restored it. And restoring reality and time with speed is a little unquantifiable, are there any examples of other characters doing this and the speed feats they get?

In my defense, I want to see possible counter arguments covered. Plus it's a little different from a door or a shell because it's stated to be lower-dimensional than Solaris himself which COULD cause issues to the AP and Durability. But again, I'm not trying to be super pedant or anything, I just wanna cover possible arguments

Also the unused statement not being canon is kinda my point, Sonic adds evidence towards Null Space being infinite in the unused dialogue, but it's unused
Click to expand...
Not really a "can of worms". It's literally like how people do the same thing for Dragon Ball. At that point, who cares. Only time it actually matters is if it's a difference between two different continuities like Toei DB and Anime DB. Rouge calling it a time hub doesn't exactly completely debunk what it is amidst every other statement explaining White Space. Also, I never said restoring reality and time with speed was supposed to be a quantifiable feat. I only meant that in the sense that time not existing wasn't an issue for him accelerating through it due to him restoring it with speed anyway. At that point, Sonic is just carving a way for himself in a sense. As for other characters doing it? Shadow in Shadow Gens.

Also it isn't that much different because it isn't stated to be a lower-dimensional thing, only that it is an anchor. This doesn't immediately denote lower-dimensionality. It being anchored to "Sonic's dimension" could also denote the current world they are in rather than an actual spatio-temporal axis. There is also the fact that Sonic and co needed to damage Solaris's consciousness to do any effective damage against Solaris as physical attacks meant very little.

Honestly, trying to cover every counter-argument is a bit fruitless. People can make a counter-argument against anything. These other arguments are just easily countered by what's actually shown and said.
 
Snek said:
If we're talking about our Sonic scaling takes I might as well join in.

Personally I think that modern Sonic in base is  Low 2-C for the scaling provided by the story book games as well as by him fighting thing's powered by Paradox Prisim shards in Sonic prime. That said I disagree with 2-C because I think the reasoning that led us to conclude that Sonic's universe is a Dragon Ball esc macrocosm is circular because we assume that all of the universes in the shatterverse are regular sized universes and therefore the original universe is six times larger however the opposite case is also logically consistent if the shatterverses are 1/6th the size of the original universe while the main universe is just normal. Also I think our reasoning that the shatterverses have to be the size of a "normal" universe just because they are called universes is really dumb, after all the main universe is also called a universe even though it's apparently supposed to be six times bigger than other structures that are called universes so by our own logic being differently sized compared to a "normal" universe doesn't mean that the smaller or bigger universe...isn't a universe. Additionally the main universe should be Low 2-C anyways because it is a single space-time even if it were larger than a normal universe for the same reason that the Dragon Ball macrocosm was that tier before it was proven that hell, heaven and the world of the living were seperate space-times.

Anyways that's my maybe hot take.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure Sonic's world on its own possesses multiple realities within it already, so I'm not sure if that holds up, tbh.
 
Snek said:
That said I disagree with 2-C because I think the reasoning that led us to conclude that Sonic's universe is a Dragon Ball esc macrocosm is circular because we assume that all of the universes in the shatterverse are regular sized universes and therefore the original universe is six times larger however the opposite case is also logically consistent if the shatterverses are 1/6th the size of the original universe while the main universe is just normal. Also I think our reasoning that the shatterverses have to be the size of a "normal" universe just because they are called universes is really dumb, after all the main universe is also called a universe even though it's apparently supposed to be six times bigger than other structures that are called universes so by our own logic being differently sized compared to a "normal" universe doesn't mean that the smaller or bigger universe...isn't a universe. Additionally the main universe should be Low 2-C anyways because it is a single space-time even if it were larger than a normal universe for the same reason that the Dragon Ball macrocosm was that tier before it was proven that hell, heaven and the world of the living were seperate space-times.
Click to expand...
This... From what we see, the characters have memories of their own past and the places have clearly developed in accordance with that history... Why do we assume that their definition of Universe is the same as someone from the base world? (if their universe was the size of a grain of rice, for them that would still be the size of the universe, Why calling it a universe is even an argument for a universal size of what is canonically one-sixth of a universe?))
 
ZothythoTheNephalem said:
Not really a "can of worms". It's literally like how people do the same thing for Dragon Ball. At that point, who cares. Only time it actually matters is if it's a difference between two different continuities like Toei DB and Anime DB. Rouge calling it a time hub doesn't exactly completely debunk what it is amidst every other statement explaining White Space. Also, I never said restoring reality and time with speed was supposed to be a quantifiable feat. I only meant that in the sense that time not existing wasn't an issue for him accelerating through it due to him restoring it with speed anyway. At that point, Sonic is just carving a way for himself in a sense. As for other characters doing it? Shadow in Shadow Gens.

Also it isn't that much different because it isn't stated to be a lower-dimensional thing, only that it is an anchor. This doesn't immediately denote lower-dimensionality. It being anchored to "Sonic's dimension" could also denote the current world they are in rather than an actual spatio-temporal axis. There is also the fact that Sonic and co needed to damage Solaris's consciousness to do any effective damage against Solaris as physical attacks meant very little.

Honestly, trying to cover every counter-argument is a bit fruitless. People can make a counter-argument against anything. These other arguments are just easily countered by what's actually shown and said.
Click to expand...
It still sort of is, I've seen arguments about it on other threads . Plus, I didn't say it immediately debunked it, only that it added to my point. Theoretically, anyone could access it. But only Sonic, Classic Sonic, and Shadow could restore it

In the Japanese version it's clarified to be something in "this dimension that's keeping him alive." Along with the fact that it's anchoring Solaris in the first place pretty much heavily implies it's lower-dimensional if not confirming it. Like it doesn't STOP it from having higher dimensional durability like how 3-D characters get higher dimensional AP, but it does raise questions. Also doing damage to Solaris's consciousness instead in phase 2 is also a problem with scaling Sonic to tier 1 because that's Solaris's consciousness
 
Snek said:
Are you referring to the Special Stages or to something else?
Click to expand...
Just in general with some of the allegedly infinite-sized spaces in the Sonic franchise just in Sonic's base world. Pretty sure there are a few, though I can't list them off the top of my head.
 
TheStinkeer said:
It still sort of is, I've seen arguments about it on other threads . Plus, I didn't say it immediately debunked it, only that it added to my point. Theoretically, anyone could access it. But only Sonic, Classic Sonic, and Shadow could restore it

In the Japanese version it's clarified to be something in "this dimension that's keeping him alive." Along with the fact that it's anchoring Solaris in the first place pretty much heavily implies it's lower-dimensional if not confirming it. Like it doesn't STOP it from having higher dimensional durability like how 3-D characters get higher dimensional AP, but it does raise questions. Also doing damage to Solaris's consciousness instead in phase 2 is also a problem with scaling Sonic to tier 1 because that's Solaris's consciousness
Click to expand...
It's a can of worms to people who try to overcomplicate things, maybe. Honestly, Occam's Razor is a very special tool to be used.

Sure, though that doesn't autoconfirm lower-dimensionality, either. That's just what can be assumed, but it isn't actually confirmed to be that way. Even then, there is a conflict both in terms of the actual context (I'd like to see where this is exactly said) and the fact that the consciousness was primarily targeted and not the body. If the body was truly this weak, they wouldn't need to target the mind at all. Now this conflicts with things and I don't know if this one line of light shells really blows every other statement of Solaris out of the water. This also conflicts with what is already known. My ideology on this is if there is more evidence for A than B, than a is most likely more true unless B is REALLY damning. But B looks like it's full of holes given what A shows (which A is stuff we know is true).
 
ZothythoTheNephalem said:
It's a can of worms to people who try to overcomplicate things, maybe. Honestly, Occam's Razor is a very special tool to be used.

Sure, though that doesn't autoconfirm lower-dimensionality, either. That's just what can be assumed, but it isn't actually confirmed to be that way. Even then, there is a conflict both in terms of the actual context (I'd like to see where this is exactly said) and the fact that the consciousness was primarily targeted and not the body. If the body was truly this weak, they wouldn't need to target the mind at all. Now this conflicts with things and I don't know if this one line of light shells really blows every other statement of Solaris out of the water. This also conflicts with what is already known. My ideology on this is if there is more evidence for A than B, than a is most likely more true unless B is REALLY damning. But B looks like it's full of holes given what A shows (which A is stuff we know is true).
Click to expand...
The light shells don't contradict phase 2 Solaris, who is the unachored Super-Dimensional dude. They just say that phase 1 Solaris is the one being anchored. It's stated right at the start of the battle against him

English version
Japanese version
 
Wouldn't the Chaos & Sol Emeralds creating an Eggmanland of Eggman's dreams that surpasses all dimensions end up being paradoxical since he had already seen Maginaryworld, which then said dream would be stored within Maginaryworld, but then it surpassing all dimensions would mean that it would have to involve surpassing Maginaryworld too?
 
TheStinkeer said:
The light shells don't contradict phase 2 Solaris, who is the unachored Super-Dimensional dude. They just say that phase 1 Solaris is the one being anchored. It's stated right at the start of the battle against him

English version
Japanese version
Click to expand...
What any of this means is unclear, I'll be 100%. Even after destroying the body that leads into Phase 2, Solaris is still alive. So what does one even make of this. Feels contradictory.
 
McFriesGuy075 said:
Wouldn't the Chaos & Sol Emeralds creating an Eggmanland of Eggman's dreams that surpasses all dimensions end up being paradoxical since he had already seen Maginaryworld, which then said dream would be stored within Maginaryworld, but then it surpassing all dimensions would mean that it would have to involve surpassing Maginaryworld too?
Click to expand...
I mean, we know the Chaos Emeralds are said to be the supersubstance of dreams, yet they scale above the Preciousstone and Maginaryworld absolutely via feats.
 
ZothythoTheNephalem said:
What any of this means is unclear, I'll be 100%. Even after destroying the body that leads into Phase 2, Solaris is still alive. So what does one even make of this. Feels contradictory.
Click to expand...
It means that the light shells are doing something to anchor Solaris, and Eggman theorizes if it's destroyed, Solaris can be defeated. Of course, he's wrong on the latter part
 
TheStinkeer said:
It means that the light shells are doing something to anchor Solaris, and Eggman theorizes if it's destroyed, Solaris can be defeated. Of course, he's wrong on the latter part
Click to expand...
Then it just feels like it doesn't really mean anything, tbh. At the end of the day, Super Sonic and co fights Solaris at his strongest at each era of time and wins.
 
ZothythoTheNephalem said:
Then it just feels like it doesn't really mean anything, tbh. At the end of the day, Super Sonic and co fights Solaris at his strongest at each era of time and wins.
Click to expand...
As much as I'd like for it to be as simple as that, it really isn't.
  • Light shells anchor Solaris (ENG)
  • The Light Shells hold first form Solaris together, and are part of "this dimension." Eggman believes it's keeping him alive and destroying them will defeat Solaris (JP)
  • 2nd phase Solaris has no light shells and can only be attacked by his conscious

Stuff like this is part of the reason the Sonic verse is a genuine headache to scale ngl
 
TheStinkeer said:
As much as I'd like for it to be as simple as that, it really isn't.
  • Light shells anchor Solaris (ENG)
  • The Light Shells hold first form Solaris together, and are part of "this dimension." Eggman believes it's keeping him alive and destroying them will defeat Solaris (JP)
  • 2nd phase Solaris has no light shells and can only be attacked by his conscious

Stuff like this is part of the reason the Sonic verse is a genuine headache to scale ngl
Click to expand...
Kinda is simple because, at the end, it didn't matter anyway. So, honestly, who cares?
 
ZothythoTheNephalem said:
Kinda is simple because, at the end, it didn't matter anyway. So, honestly, who cares?
Click to expand...
It still matters because it's how AP and such is scaled. It's like destroying a mountain by punching it or setting off a bunch of C4's. It's not an exact situation like the Solaris fight but the idea is still there
 
TheStinkeer said:
It still matters because it's how AP and such is scaled. It's like destroying a mountain by punching it or setting off a bunch of C4's. It's not an exact situation like the Solaris fight but the idea is still there
Click to expand...
Not really. We know he is objectively higher-dimensional, anyway. That's really just the end of it. We know for a fact Solaris objectively scales above everything else in the verse. If you want to make the argument, you could simply just say Phase 1 Solaris scales to the strongest previous thing in the franchise if it has a supposed lower dimensionality. Then Phase 2 is just simply stronger.
 
JJSliderman said:
Anchoring is a dubism, in the JP they mention it keeping Solaris alive but that was wrong
Click to expand...
I later said that here
TheStinkeer said:
As much as I'd like for it to be as simple as that, it really isn't.
  • Light shells anchor Solaris (ENG)
  • The Light Shells hold first form Solaris together, and are part of "this dimension." Eggman believes it's keeping him alive and destroying them will defeat Solaris (JP)
  • 2nd phase Solaris has no light shells and can only be attacked by his conscious

Stuff like this is part of the reason the Sonic verse is a genuine headache to scale ngl
Click to expand...
 
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MysticMania said:
Adding onto this, my personal take is that none of the cast have accelerated development.
Click to expand...
Even though it's been shown throughout the franchise? At that point, just feels like denial. Honestly, the accelerated development is cool. Don't know why Sonic characters can't have it. This is sorta what I meant about the Sonic franchise's treatment, lol. It's always something.
 
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