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Kaidou vs Superman (Post-Crisis) [3-11-0]

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Osemere said:
Supes tremendously upscales the 23 ZT value, as the feat that value comes from was done by individual Lanterns casually (literally 0 effort from their end) dragging a planet around at 2% charge, and pre-death Supes operates on a level above teambusters of groups of high-tier Lanterns all at 100% charge and fighting for their lives. He also has subconscious statistics amplification which can’t be restricted, so he’ll always end up stronger here.
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If this is true, then Superman should stomp right? Like this is some crazy upscale. Hal Jordan alone is like the equivalent of thousands of Green Lanterns at his peak, and Clark scales to him.
 
Kachon123 said:
1. Superflare is not a threat. Kaidou can see several seconds into the future and he has the ability to release his own omnidirectional shockwave with over 2x the AP of the Superflare. That would stop the heat from ever reaching him.
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The Superflare is a x1000 amp.
Kachon123 said:
2. Kaidou is far faster. Speed is equalized to base, meaning that at his peak Kaidou would be 12x faster than Superman, which he can increase even further with blitz attacks and higher variants. Kaidou can see the future so no attack is getting to him.
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Except that Clark’s stat-amp also applies to his speed, such that his reactions can “speed up” in the events of extreme time dilation passively, and can even actively ramp up his speed to fight against temporal modulation. Even when the entire Earth was frozen in time (including the entire metahuman community) and only speedsters were unaffected through the speedforce, Clark could eventually catch up if he had enough breathing room. Precog with a few seconds of range also wouldn’t be enough to consistently dodge Clark’s heat vision due to its range and ease of use, or superflare due to AOE, or Clark’s own speed and strength stat-amp; eventually he’d just get a shot in or Kaidou would be overwhelmed by Clark’s speed advantage.
Kachon123 said:
3. Kaidou also has Advanced Busōshoku Haki which makes a barrier of emitted Haki, which has proven to be able to block heat.
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Unless the level of heat it has blocked is comparable to the sun or whatever this doesn’t mean anything.
Kachon123 said:
Kaidou also severely upscales from his 24 ZT value. Luffy, who was already > the 24 ZT due to statements and was fully incapable of doing anything to this version of Kaidou. Each one of his attacks nearly KO'd him before he even went all out. In his bulked form, which he can spam, Kaidou becomes much stronger (in value he far upscales over 2x). Luffy at his strongest couldn't even hurt Kaidou and this is after Luffy's passive stat amp. Kaidou would break through Luffy's layered defenses and completely stonewall him until he used his final attack or dura neg (although the latter didn't do much).
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It’s not really comparable to the scaling chain Supes has above fodder nameless non-concentrating Lanterns at 2% doing the 23 ZT feat though, and Supes has statistics amplification which will always ensure he’s stronger here anyways.
 
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Osemere said:
It’s not really comparable to the scaling chain Supes has above fodder nameless non-concentrating Lanterns at 2% doing the 23 ZT feat though, and Supes has statistics amplification which will always ensure he’s stronger here anyways.
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Remind us how this works again please
 
Kazuma_kuwabara said:
...Save the DC threads fights


Chariot190...!
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I would but it sounds more like Supes' AP is more like a yottatons, not Zettatons based on Hal. Which is a big enough change to be a CRT.

Though the "stronger than foe" slop makes him impossible to match up anyway below his peak. He just proceeds to match his foe+1 because he's literally already stronger than them he's just basically sandbagging subconsciously and when he fights a dude who's above that, he just, holds back less?
Dude is Spidey if Spidey wasn't a fraud.
Tbh giving a rating for that is misleading af, it's basically only there for scaling purposes like "This character = Supes' holding back, which is THIS strong".
 
Could use New 52 Supes tho if they have similar AP (Idk i didnt check), he's way more fraud and isnt secretly every tier up to 2 based on "eh i feel like it".
 
Chariot190 said:
Though the "stronger than foe" slop makes him impossible to match up anyway below his peak. He just proceeds to match his foe+1 because he's literally already stronger than them he's just basically sandbagging subconsciously and when he fights a dude who's above that, he just, holds back less?
Dude is Spidey if Spidey wasn't a fraud.
Tbh giving a rating for that is misleading af, it's basically only there for scaling purposes like "This character = Supes' holding back, which is THIS strong".
Click to expand...
So, basically, Kaidou doesn't have the AP advantage even if he got literally quadrillions of times stronger via amps?
 
Superman FRA, but this seems like a stomp

I don't think Kaido has any wincons. Superman upscales his AP by a ridiculous degree and resists all of Kaido's hax.
 
Fallen_Angelicx said:
Chariot's Aura is really magnificent
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images
 
... Is COC not a wincon for one piece ever? I do feel like other verse need paragraphs to proof their character can tank COC (not saying superman cant but idk his feat anyway). And it needs to be mental strength layer not just trauma scaling
 
eibwen said:
... Is COC not a wincon for one piece ever? I do feel like other verse need paragraphs to proof their character can tank COC (not saying superman cant but idk his feat anyway). And it needs to be mental strength layer not just trauma scaling
Click to expand...
The Haki page says that the Color of the Supreme King can be resisted by strong willpower, and Superman is noted to have near infinite willpower on his page, so I don't know if it would affect him.
 
AP

  • Superman scales to 23 Zettatons
  • Kaido has a variety of strength levels going by the profile
    • 188.362 Exatons in Base (122x lower than Superman)
    • 3.014 Zettatons with Haki (7.63x lower than Superman)
    • His Hybrid forms increase his powers and stacks with Haki, which bumps him to 24.112 Zettatons (1.048x higher than Superman)
    • His bulk form scales to 59.44 Zettatons (2.58x higher than Superman)
Presumably based on the OP, Kaido is starting in his Hybrid Form and will likely amp himself with Haki as soon as possible, which make him pretty 1:1 with Superman. Then he has the ability to achieve superior forms/increase his power to get a definitive edge in AP

Lifting Strength

  • Superman lifts 1.7 Billions Tons
  • Kaido confuses me, because he's listed as Class P for scaling to a... Class E character? I think OP people should probably fix that error since there's some scaling disconnects
  • Going by the hub page, he should be upscaling from 167.5 Trillion Tons
    • However, I ended up tracking down the Class E feat which is about 1 Quadrillion Tons of force
Either way Kaido blows Superman out of the water in lifting strength, so Superman can never physically escape a grapple

Powers vs Powers

Since Kaido has more powers I'll go over him first
  • Regeneration & Stamina: Probably Kaido's biggest factor. He can fight for over twenty-four hours against peer opponents and still keep going. The entire Luffy fight occurs after he's done multiple back-to-back large showings and fights multiple people capable of harming him, while suffering from debilitating damage and still holds control of the war most of the time. Having said that, Superman has comparable levels of stamina against a peer opponent, so neither person is really going down easily, and it's going to be a lengthy physical fight if they do get into it
  • Fire Manipulation/Heat Aura: Kaido's Flame are able to melt Gear Five Luffy, who in a much weaker form can handle temperatures capable of melting stone and vaporizing people/large amounts of the environment. Having said that, Superman can survive the heat of the Sun's Corona , which hits temperatures of several millions degrees Celcuis, which puts his heat endurance far past anything in One Piece from what I can see
  • Haki: This is the biggest one since it has the most that can counter or seriously injure Superman
    • Observation Haki: From what I can see of Superman, he wouldn't really try to hide or really limit his power here. So I think the information analysis/X-Ray vision part of Haki wouldn't mean much. But Superman has no counters for precognitions other than using his intelligence to try and think of a counter. Additionally, the instinctive reaction part also means that whenever Superman fights Kaido in close quarters, I find it very likely that he's going to get hit an equal or greater number of times in comparison
    • Conqueror's Haki: From what I can see this is probably the first thing Kaido would do and just try to will Superman into submission. Now Superman does have Green Lantern levels of willpower, which is noted multiple times. And in DC Willpower can counter things like magical transmutation, soul destruction powers, or mind control. But a big thing is that Green Lanterns are chosen to resist conceptual ideas of fear, which Superman was qualified for. Overall, I think while it may initially rock Superman, he wouldn't go down to Conquer's Haki.
    • Armament Haki: From what I can see, Kaido isn't given a "Beyond Advanced" rating, which has the durability negation powers. Most of what I can see is resistance negation and regeneration negation, but neither seem like they'd be really effective in this circumstance, since the powers Superman resists he does by such a colossal amount, I'm not sure if weakening them does much. However, Kaido would counter his regeneration, which greatly impacts Superman's ability to last in a prolonged fight
  • While it would be hard to come up, Kaido does have the Devil Fruit weakness to seawater. If he's moved to an ocean, Superman would be able to win the fight there with Kaido's powers canceled
For Superman:
Mindset

The biggest weakness to me is that Superman holds back to an extreme amount, even against other enemies that can harm him. Against Doomsday, he was holding back until the very end and its confirmed later that Doomsday was basically the first time he tapped into his full strength against someone else. Kaido has no such things with him, as soon as Superman shows that he can give him a fight, Kaido will go into it with pretty solid glee. So while Superman can potentially chain

Conclusion

Kaido's most notable advantage is his lifting strength, which is massively superior to Superman's. He'd have to either move Kaido underwater, into outer space or vibrate through him to escape. Additionally at Kaido's peak power he's twice as strong as Superman. His precognition and instinctive reaction is also a massive battle advantage. His main issue will likely be his lack of heat resistance and inability to fight in space.

An important thing to remember is that while Kaido is stronger than Superman, he doesn't weigh more than Superman's lifting strength. If Superman is grabbed, he could pull something akin to the new Superman movie with Ultraman and the Engineer, where he takes Kaido to space, something he's been shown to do multiple times against his enemies. Like, multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple times.

Overall, that's why I think Superman wins. It's not being able to outpunch or even outlast Kaido since he likely can't. It's his ability to control where the fight, he has abilities that Kaido can't resist, and his biology lets him go to environments that Kaido can't. Kaido's best win condition is to win within the early part of their fight in my mind, while Superman wins the mid and end game of the fight. Superman has so many means to control the fight location, that him doing something like this is perfectly valid in my mind.

Superman's win condition to me is BFR, followed by durability ignoring heat vision or vibration manipulation.

Kaido's win condition is keeping the fight on land and preventing being moved to a worse location, after which he just wins that brawl.

To me, Superman's win conditions are more achievable, so I think he'd win a majority of the time (though not easily) if the fight were simulated a hundred times.

So Superman imo

EDIT: As a note, people are bringing up the Solar Flare, which wouldn't be a power for this Superman. He lacks the training needed to use that power, and his mental limiters are still mostly active for this incarnation. It's not something he can use against Kaido.

Chariot190 said:
Could use New 52 Supes tho if they have similar AP (Idk i didnt check), he's way more fraud and isnt secretly every tier up to 2 based on "eh i feel like it".
Click to expand...
Imo New 52 Superman is a worse matchup for Kaido. He enjoys moving the fight to outerspace and unlike this Superman he demolishes Kaido's lifting strength. He just gets BFR'ed and dumpstered in space combat like Doomsday was.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Superman's win condition to me is BFR, followed by durability ignoring heat vision or vibration manipulation.
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Ah, Kaidou's Advanced Busoshoku Haki can stop this. It has stopped vibration manipulation (that has stellar range) before in the past.

As for the BFR argument, I'm not too sure if it would work against Kaidou. Even if grabbed and/or flown, Kaidou has the ability to generate flame clouds from his body with superior LS to Superman, meaning he'd be able to create space between the two of them.

EDIT: Adding on to this, characters in One Piece such as Enel and the Automota have been shown to survive in space, so Kaidou (the world's strongest creature) could likely do the same.
 
Kachon123 said:
Ah, Kaidou's Advanced Busoshoku Haki can stop this. It has stopped vibration manipulation (that has stellar range) before in the past.
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Then yeah it would counter phasing if he can counter White Beard's vibration fruit.

Kachon123 said:
Even if grabbed and/or flown, Kaidou has the ability to generate flame clouds from his body with superior LS to Superman, meaning he'd be able to create space between the two of them.
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The clouds I see on the page come from his feet and weather manipulation, the former doesn't stop a lift and the latter can be rammed through due to Superman's AP imo.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
The clouds I see on the page come from his feet and weather manipulation, the former doesn't stop a lift and the latter can be rammed through due to Superman's AP imo.
Click to expand...
They can come from anywhere on his body. They have high density, and Kaidou literally used them to cover his entire body for his final attack, which you noted to be over 2x Superman's AP. I'm not sure why he'd be able to ram through them.
 
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