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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

@TheStinkeer Sorry for the double post but my blog does also have 2 statements that call it a space-time void, which helps support the idea that space is also just not there (initially, before Sonic began restoring space-time). There's a 3rd if you include BumbleKast
 
I know this is a very hand-wavey response, but it's a Sonic video game. This is the same franchise where Sonic can reinstate erased time from actual nothingness, and where the writers are definitely not going to delve into explaining how such a thing can be.

The issue is that the erasure of space-time necessitates that whatever happens to time equally happens to space. They are too intermingled and there are already statements verbatim stating that space is also being erased/restored.

Omega's wording shouldn't be too troubling. It is quite literally White Space, not White Nowhere lol, and it highly depends verse-to-verse as to how that's handled. Erased things are added to a realm of nothingness in the Sonicverse
I don't even disagree that space and time is being erased and is added to White Space when it's erased from existence, (plus I heard it works somewhat similarly with Oblivion's erasure from Marvel, could be wrong tho,) i'm just talking about White Space specifically. As for Omega, I do think it's a fair enough point to bring up, tho Omega wouldn't know it's called "White Space" and would just go by what he knows, and if he's able to tell there's no time, then he'd likely be able to tell there's no space
@TheStinkeer Sorry for the double post but my blog does also have 2 statements that call it a space-time void, which helps support the idea that space is also just not there (initially, before Sonic began restoring space-time). There's a 3rd if you include BumbleKast
Dw! It's all good! I've been doing that myself lol. I think my main issue is that they're outside sources, which aren't immediately invalid because they're complimentary sources, they only have issues if they go against what the game says, namely Omega's statement
 
Dw! It's all good! I've been doing that myself lol. I think my main issue is that they're outside sources, which aren't immediately invalid because they're complimentary sources, they only have issues if they go against what the game says, namely Omega's statement
The main thing is that the word space by it's very definition is not contradictory to space(-time) being erased.

Space: a continuous area or expanse which is free, available, or unoccupied.

It is already called a ceaseless expanse by Orbot/Cubot, meaning this is what Space Omega should be talking about when he uses the word. Space in the sense that White Space is an area/expanse, not that spatial properties still exist within it.
 
The main thing is that the word space by it's very definition is not contradictory to space(-time) being erased.

Space: a continuous area or expanse which is free, available, or unoccupied.

It is already called a ceaseless expanse by Orbot/Cubot, meaning this is what Space Omega should be talking about when he uses the word. Space in the sense that White Space is an area/expanse, not that spatial properties still exist within it.
Alright, that's true, I don't have anything to say about that
 
Makes me wonder if the Shadow who 1v1'd Metal Overlord could beat that specific version of Team Super Sonic or if they would manage to whittle away at him enough to beat him.
I imagine they'd eventually whittle away at him. Doom Shadow doesn't have the means to pierce their Invulnerability
Edit: Just remembered IDW's Chaos Spear negging Super Neo's form, hmm...
Not like that matters cuz the Super Forms couldn't pierce Metal Overlord's without their ultimate attack while Shadow could with his regular attacks.
Speaking of which, why has Evolved Shdaow STILL not been scaled to Metal Overlord's speed and LS?
 
Speaking of which, why has Evolved Shdaow STILL not been scaled to Metal Overlord's speed and LS?
People were debating whether Evolved should be upgraded or Overlord should be downgraded iirc, which just... never came to fruition.

iMO Shadow shouldn't have the Lifting Strength unless he specifically does a tug-of-war of some kind with him. Atm Evolved Shadow doesn't have the direct feats, moreso just implications. So perhaps a "possibly" wouldn't be too bad
 
People were debating whether Evolved should be upgraded or Overlord should be downgraded iirc, which just... never came to fruition.

iMO Shadow shouldn't have the Lifting Strength unless he specifically does a tug-of-war of some kind with him. Atm Evolved Shadow doesn't have the direct feats, moreso just implications. So perhaps a "possibly" wouldn't be too bad
At the end of the fight, he drags him across the water. It's definitely considerable enough to be likely if not outright
 
lowkey Dodon Pa might be trolling everyone atp because for Sonic, Bikini Bottom is literally under water and he's tryna make Sonic think he has to restore everything again

Then there's Sky Road with Blaze's fear of heights like why is he doing this
 
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Has this line ever been addressed for Time Eater's erasure of all time?

"That thing keeps jumping back and forth through time!"

Obv not talking about the dimensional energy part because that's just the same thing as erasure but the jumping back and forth through time part, implying there's still time to jump through unless it's referring to the already erased zones for the Eggmen to reshape
 
Has this line ever been addressed for Time Eater's erasure of all time?

"That thing keeps jumping back and forth through time!"

...the jumping back and forth through time part, implying there's still time to jump through unless it's referring to the already erased zones for the Eggmen to reshape
The verse operates on Hypertime, which Time Eater has the range to access, so it's something that holds no weight here because there's a higher order of time for it to use.

Obviously you and some others don't buy Hypertime, but the logic within the argument is consistent with itself.
 
Go to the calculation request thread, but I think the explosion should just scale to Gamma in terms of potency.
Since the pink Flicky was at the center, it would scale to the full yield of the explosion, which in turn would scale to fodder Badniks due to their destruction causing pain (you can see tears briefly falling from the Flicky's eyes) and stunning them, which Sonic from Sonic 1 would scale like 2 one shots above.
 
Since the pink Flicky was at the center, it would scale to the full yield of the explosion, which in turn would scale to fodder Badniks due to their destruction causing pain (you can see tears briefly falling from the Flicky's eyes) and stunning them, which Sonic from Sonic 1 would scale like 2 one shots above.
No, I mean calculating the explosion is futile since regardless of its size, it should be 4-B in potency due to stemming from Gamma's energy, who is 4-B. Unless I'm overthinking this. I do knkw that would result in circular scaling
 
The verse operates on Hypertime, which Time Eater has the range to access, so it's something that holds no weight here because there's a higher order of time for it to use.

Obviously you and some others don't buy Hypertime, but the logic within the argument is consistent with itself.
Yeah, fair enough

I think even ignoring the hypertimeline stuff, it wouldn't horribly change things, as Sonic would still get that resistance by being in the area where space-time was erased indicated by the screen turning white (further supported by Classic Sonic in Green Hill resisting the erasure, along with Shadow Gens also supporting that idea) and Time Eater being able to not die instantly when standing next to post-06 Super Sonic
 
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Sorry man
It's alright bud, we couldn't have known with certainty.
I think even ignoring the hypertimeline stuff, it wouldn't horribly change things, as Sonic would still get that resistance by being in the area where space-time was erased indicated by the screen turning white (further supported by Classic Sonic in Green Hill resisting the erasure, along with Shadow Gens also supporting that idea) and Time Eater being able to not die instantly when standing next to post-06 Super Sonic
I wil never forget Shadow face-tanking bare-minimum universal erasure on-screen (and Omega doing it right behind him lol... and Big revealing his true power as well).
 
I'm curious about something that's not really related to the thread but I kind of want to ask about anyways mostly because it was a random shower thought that creeped up when I was thinking about how well Sonic is treated here.

In the opinion of you guy's what verses on the wiki do you think get the short end of the stick for one reason or another?

For me I think that Mario and Naruto (weird picks I know) are done kind of dirty here just because I think both those verses are kind of expected to be treated empirically where unless something can be proven with absolute certainty they don't get scaling for it while on the other hand I think verses like God of War, Bleach or even Sonic are treated more loosely with being scaled from their lore. Not to say that I'm super knowledgeable on all of those verses by the way that's just kind of my impression. This also isn't to say that I have an issue with how any of those verses are scaled in a vacuum either, I just think that Naruto and Mario are treated with a comparably unfair level of scrutiny with how they are scaled.
 
I'm curious about something that's not really related to the thread but I kind of want to ask about anyways mostly because it was a random shower thought that creeped up when I was thinking about how well Sonic is treated here.

In the opinion of you guy's what verses on the wiki do you think get the short end of the stick for one reason or another?

For me I think that Mario and Naruto (weird picks I know) are done kind of dirty here just because I think both those verses are kind of expected to be treated empirically where unless something can be proven with absolute certainty they don't get scaling for it while on the other hand I think verses like God of War, Bleach or even Sonic are treated more loosely with being scaled from their lore. Not to say that I'm super knowledgeable on all of those verses by the way that's just kind of my impression. This also isn't to say that I have an issue with how any of those verses are scaled in a vacuum either, I just think that Naruto and Mario are treated with a comparably unfair level of scrutiny with how they are scaled.
From what I know, Mario def gets done dirty. Mario getting done dirty also ends up showing how closely linked Sonic and Mario scaling sadly is because if you talk about Mario's scaling on VSBW, someone's gonna bring up the Sonic scaling here

I think Dragon Ball Super, to a VERY SMALL extent, does as well, as it really should be hitting the 2-B levels by now due to multipliers. Although it's really small compared to what verses like Mario gets so
 
I really like how in the Japanese version of SA2, instead of saying "don't worry Mr. President!" Sonic says "Don't get so worked up." It's a lot more in-character imo.
Image

And just in case because I don't know the full accuracy/reliability of Windii's translations, I also checked the same line through jisho and such and it generally seems to mean "don't get worked up."
 
Speaking from an outside perspective it seems we're pretty hard on Jujutsu Kaisen compared to other anime verses.
It went from the MC not having a profile for a few months on the wiki to essentially psycho analyzing every feat/anti-feat, statement and calculation only for a clearly 7-B verse (minus the black hole) to not be rated 7-B (H7-C take it or leave it I guess?).

Is E-102 Gamma's destruction calcable? the pink Flicky tanks it.

I'm assuming it'd end up being 8-A, maybe even Low 7-C.
Reminds me how some people used to believe Eggman had a little altruism with having those green bubbles around the freed animals that escaped or were busted out of the badniks. It's not like he wants a fuel source to get destroyed, so...
 
In the opinion of you guy's what verses on the wiki do you think get the short end of the stick for one reason or another?
Mario. Absolutely Mario. That verse gets held to a higher scrutiny than the majority of game verses on the wiki, which I've seen some say is a result of the verse's toony nature rather than one which follows a more clear progression of power.

I think Tier 2 Legend of Zelda has some decent arguments, but iirc scarcely any profiles scale to such a level (yet?).
 
I think Sonic maybe gets treated a little too kindly sometimes, like I definitely would not put him at 6-D.
But then I also see him placed far too low elsewhere.

I want to say so much that Metroid is too low but it’s fair.
 
I'm curious about something that's not really related to the thread but I kind of want to ask about anyways mostly because it was a random shower thought that creeped up when I was thinking about how well Sonic is treated here.

In the opinion of you guy's what verses on the wiki do you think get the short end of the stick for one reason or another?

For me I think that Mario and Naruto (weird picks I know) are done kind of dirty here just because I think both those verses are kind of expected to be treated empirically where unless something can be proven with absolute certainty they don't get scaling for it while on the other hand I think verses like God of War, Bleach or even Sonic are treated more loosely with being scaled from their lore. Not to say that I'm super knowledgeable on all of those verses by the way that's just kind of my impression. This also isn't to say that I have an issue with how any of those verses are scaled in a vacuum either, I just think that Naruto and Mario are treated with a comparably unfair level of scrutiny with how they are scaled.
Mario and MHA.
 
I think Sonic maybe gets treated a little too kindly sometimes, like I definitely would not put him at 6-D.
But then I also see him placed far too low elsewhere.

I want to say so much that Metroid is too low but it’s fair.
6-D seems just fine as a max (I'd argue more, but I'm not going to get into all that). I don't think Sonic gets treated too kindly at all, either. For the longest time, Sonic was done dirty as hell and it's only semi-recently that he's getting good treatment.
 
I think Sonic maybe gets treated a little too kindly sometimes, like I definitely would not put him at 6-D.
But then I also see him placed far too low elsewhere.
Tbh I think it's fair enough, there's some stretches I feel but overall Sonic can reasonably reach there

Personally I'd scale both Sonic and Super Sonic to tier 2 territories, with Super Sonic being possibly tier 1. Base has Massively FTL+ speeds with possible infinite speed, and Super Sonic has Massively FTL+, likely infinite speeds, and possibly immeasurable speeds via the Solaris fight.

There's also a couple differences I'd make if I were scaling ENG Sonic or JP Sonic somewhat separately. JP Sonic, for example, should have much more solid reasons for resistances to fate manipulation and erasure because Generations' script was unchanged, so all time and space was erased compared to Ian Flynn's rewrite which pretty much just erases areas locally due to the whole "that thing keeps jumping back and forth through time!" And resistance to fate manipulation bc of The End fight, along with the possible resistance of Secret Rings. And I think ENG Sonic would have a little better AP because of the Egg Wizard's English statement of having power beyond what Eggman imagined rather than just holding the existence of parallel dimensions (universes in this case I believe) and The End's infinite statement
 
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Tbh I think it's fair enough, there's some stretches I feel but overall Sonic can reasonably reach there

Personally I'd scale both Sonic and Super Sonic to tier 2 territories, with Super Sonic being possibly tier 1. Base has Massively FTL+ speeds with possible infinite speed, and Super Sonic has Massively FTL+, likely infinite speeds, and possibly immeasurable speeds via the Solaris fight.

There's also a couple differences I'd make if I were scaling ENG Sonic or JP Sonic somewhat separately. JP Sonic, for example, should have much more solid reasons for resistances to fate manipulation and erasure because Generations' script was unchanged, so all time and space was erased compared to Ian Flynn's rewrite which pretty much just erases areas locally due to the whole "that thing keeps jumping back and forth through time!" And resistance to fate manipulation bc of The End fight, along with the possible resistance of Secret Rings. And I think ENG Sonic would have a little better AP because of the Egg Wizard's English statement of having power beyond what Eggman imagined rather than just holding the existence of parallel dimensions (universes in this case I believe) and The End's infinite statement
Given Solaris scaling, Super Sonic has been at Tier 1 with BASE speeds already being infinite to immeasurable given Gens or Forces's Null Space feat.
 
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Given Solaris scaling, Super Sonic has been at Tier 1 with his speeds already being infinite to immeasurable given Gens or Forces's Null Space feat.
Solaris scaling is a bit weird with the whole ENG's "dimensional anchoring" and JP's "Light shells of this dimension are keeping him alive." Are the light shells still just as durable as Solaris to reasonably scale to his super/extra-dimensional being? And the Immeasurable speed feat of dodging the lasers that move throughout all of time could also be just due to the game being badly made. Plus Sonic being able to attack Solaris before he can cross his arms is also confusing to scale because it could be immeasurable because Solaris exists in the past, present, and future, but then how much of Sonic attacking is the future, does that even apply to combat?

Gens does have Sonic restoring space-time no matter the version, but that's a little unquantifiable. Plus "flying through the end of time" is also a problem as it's in the encyclospeedia, which isn't always the most reliable source because of its goofs minus when it confirms something consistently stated. Plus, space-time has already been erased, but it's possible it's because the Sonic's and Shadow have already made space-time heal, like how Tails mentioned the world will vanish even though it was already erased before the final fight

And Forces Null Space feat is pretty good, albeit Null Space's infinite size can be a bit controversial. Asides from that, all that needs to be proved is that Sonic got faster and that Super Sonic is faster than a double boost
 
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