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Bleach Transcendence Deserves Justice

ItsMeat

ItsMeat

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The kitchen barely escaped from being burnt, but here's the CRT(I also adressed all the "debunks" that I could think of, hope I didn't miss anything):

All of the translation credits go to @Apothehosis69

I will try to keep this as short as possible: Bleach transcendent characters have some crazy abilities that are not listed in their profiles.

What exactly is transcendence?​

It is a concept introduced since the Arrancar arc in the early series. There are many ways to describe Bleach transcendence, but I think the best is Kubo's, who says transcendence is surprassing the limits of one's soul. Another important thing to notice from this scan, Kubo also says Aizen and Ichigo's ways to obtain transcendence are different. This CRT will focus on Aizen's type of transcendence.

What else could be said about transcendence?​

It has a deep relationship with Adneyus, the Soul King and the first known transcendent being. All 3 transcendent persons we know(Ichigo, Aizen, Yhwach) have something in common with him. Parts of his body are also included. Ichigo is a transcendent hybrid of races just like Adneyus and Aizen and Yhwach aborbed/merged with pieces of his body, seeking and achieving an existence similar to Reio's.

"Nuh, uh, Kubo gave up transcendence. Even Rukia can sense the likes of True Shikai Ichigo."​

First, Kubo did not give up on transcendence as shown in the Klub Outside scan shown above and this one, where he straight up says Aizen is still transcendent. Even more, the tybw anime makes it clear that Aizen is the only one that can sense Soul King Yhwach's reiatsu, both of them being transcendent beings.

Second, no one argues Trye Shikai Ichigo is transcendental. He regained his powers from when he battled Aizen, but this only talks about his strenght, which is quantity of power. Quality(transcendence/non transcedence) is something else. Not to mention, Dangai Ichigo was in bankai form. And yes, True Bankai+Horn of Salvation can actually sense the reiatsu of Soul King Yhwach. But it's another story when it comes to True Shikai.

Third, even if he was transcendental, Shunpo is a technique that leaves traces of reiatsu behind. And, as I will explain later, traces of reiatsu from transcendentals can be sensed even by non transcendent beings.

"Yhwach is obvious, but what about Aizen?"​

Aizen's goal was to become the Soul King himself. He used Hogyoku's power to achieve a Reio-like existence and even surpress that.

"Ok, what about the parts of his body?"​

They should also be transcendent by possessing the same reiryoku as him and being parts of him. They have shown similar traits, like possessing unique personalities and having acausal(type 4) behaviour.

"Some Reio pieces' reiatsu can be sensed by non-transcendent beings. Thus he isn't truly transcendent."​

There are 2 claims about sensing Reio pieces's reiatsu made by non-transcendent characters:

1. Soi Fon says she doesn't sense Reio's reiatsu

I don't really see how this one acts as anything but a support for the claim they are transcendent, tbh. Yeah, yeah, Reio was absorbed by Yhwach, so Soi Fon couldn't sense it because there was no trace of the Soul King, or was there? Yes, there was. The tiny eyeball creatures are a torrent of Reio's power and she didn't realise that. The only one who did was Aizen, who was able to sense Yhwach's transcendent reiatsu.

2. Mayuri says Pernida and Mimihagi have similar reiatsu

Remember when I said I will explain the thing with traces of transcendent reiatsu? Isshin was able to sense 3rd fusion Aizen's traces of reiatsu, despite being unable to sense Aizen's presence since the 2nd fusion. The same happens here. Additionally, Mayuri has technology able to detect transcendent reiatsu and interract with it.

"Reio is also a hybrid of all races, just like Ichigo. Thus, his transcedence is different than Aizen's who only transcends hollows and soul reapers."​

Well, as we learn in CFYOW(and I made sure to include the scans), Reio is a being transcending everything, which's existence could be called "ultimate". He is indeed transcendent and he should have all of the Bleach physiologies on his profile, but he has Aizen's type of transcedence. He is a hybrid of all races, like Ichigo, that transcends the races, like Aizen. And anyway, Aizen fused with his zanpakto following the same transcendence route as ichigo after he already obtained his own type of transcendence. And by merging with the Hōgyoku, he also obtained transcendent quincy and fullbringer parts(from Reio) . Even more, we know he seeked, achieved and even surprassed a Reio-like existence. As for Yhwach, he literally absorbed the main body of the Soul King, obtaining a similar nature and power.

Now, let's talk about abilities and resistances obtained trough transcendence:​

Transcendent reiatsu can only be sensed by transcendent beings. Surprisingly, characters like Aizen only have the resistance listed on their profiles.

  • Acausality (type 4)​

"To prove his power suprassed reason, Aizen destroys the cleaner", which is a creature of reason. Also, do remember that Aizen became a Reio-like being, operating on an unconventional logic and a system of different laws, as, for them, "reason is but a shield for those who cover behind it". Keeping in mind that even weakened Adneyus has been granted Acausality type 4, I think it is fair to do the same for our transcendentals.

"B-but Aizen told Orihime that her powers could work on the Hōgyoku, so no Acausality type 4."​

Aizen simply lied to manipulate her. As everyone knows, Orihime was nothing more for Aizen, but a bait for Gotei13. His manipulation skills worked so perfectly on her, to the point she would do things against her will just because Aizen wanted so. Thus, she won't try to escape from Hueco Mundo, as she felt she could be usefull there by finding the chance to reject Hōgyoku's existence. In addition, why would an extraordinary genius like him take unnecessary risks? Because he was cocky? I think some people need to be reminded that he became "cocky" only after taking the orb into himself, which happenned after he showed her the Hōgyoku and the "interest" he had in her powers.

  • Immortality type 5​

Existences similar to Adneyus, work on a system of laws where life and death are one.

"B-but Yhwach said he could kill Aizen and Adneyus was also killed."​

First, this can very well just mean the characters who are able to do this have immortality type 5 negation, so this is no counter argument. Second, Kubo confirmed Yhwach couldn't kill Aizen, he could only seal him. Third, Yhwach stated that only a hybrid of all races could actually kill Reio, severely implying otherwise he just wouldn't die.

  • Abstract Existence type 1 (laws) Interraction, Law Manipulation, Unconventional Law Manipulation Resistance and Invulnerability Negation(Soul&Mind Manipulation)​

One of the same reasons as acausality, the cleaner feat. First, we need to talk about cleaner's nature:

  1. It is a being that lacks any form of mind or soul, as it is completely lacking spiritual aspects, thus being immune to reiatsu attacks. And yes, in Bleach, mind is part of the soul.
  2. It is purely made out of 理（ことわり) which means reason, logic or natural law. Despite most transaltions using "reason", some of them also go for "natural law". One of the latter is on Aizen's profile as a line from him in his 3rd fusion. Regardless of the translation used, reason and causality are laws, just like "logic", which is basically what governs the world, thus labeling this as Law Manipulation is the most appropriate way.

"But if it is made of reason/laws, simple law manipulation is enough, so where is the invulnerability negation coming from?"​

You'd be right, but here comes the unconventional law manipulation resistance part. Aizen also makes it clear 理（ことわり) is something trivial for him, a "shield for those who cover behind it". Aizen's own words and actions(destroying the cleaner) make it clear that he's not behind this shield at all, suggesting transcendence is a beyond that. And indeed, he did not abide the laws of nature, proof being him use reiatsu to kill someone immune to reiatsu.

"But then, this would nuke the law manipulation part!"​

No, it doesn’t nuke anything, the fact he did it stays. Additionally, the anime makes it clear that actually is law manipulation, as Gin says "a certain captain messin' up the very fabric of reality".

"What about acausality? If it means laws, acausality is off the table!"​

Wrong. Acausality type 4 is working on an irregular system of causality, which is a law. Working on a system of different laws, means that you also work on a different system of causality. And there is the other evidence brought.

Let's get to the most debated and hated ability related to Bleach transcendence:​

  • Possible Higher Dimensional Existence (💀)​

Direct statements: Aizen stated that he transcends lower beings just like how 3d beings transcend 2d ones. Additionally, the guidebooks do confirm twice(!) that he evolved into an existence that transcends everything. And even more, Reio was also said to be a being that transcends everything, which further confirms that this is what Aizen aimed and achieved. While repeating myself, I will drop a reminder that the guidebooks also confirm he achieved a Reio-like form and he even surprassed that in his 5th fusion.

"That’s ridiculous, he has no ability specific to higher dimensional entities!"​

Really?

1. Pseudo-teleportation: Aizen has shown this. The very fact it takes time between disappearing and reappearing shows that he indeed moves trough the 4th axis, instead of simply teleporting which wouldn't take time. Had it been mere deconstruction, Ichigo would have sensed his reiatsu.

2. Pseudo-invulnerability: Aizen also did show this.

3. Unconventional physiology. Aizen obtained this too. Also, his very transcedent reiatsu is something completely new to the others, it being completely unnatural for a spiritual entity's reiatsu to be impossible to sense.

Also, the HDE page says:
Keep in mind that this is merely a very general list of the abilities that a higher-dimensional entity would possess, and is not necessarily applicable to all the fiction.
Click to expand...

"Ichigo was not able to see Aizen travelling trough the fourth axis, and thus, it isn't travel on the 4th axis."​

1. I explained above why Ichigo and Aizen's transcendences are different, and even Kubo said they evolved in different ways. Thus, claiming Aizen has HDE doesn't necessarily mean Ichigo also has it. This CRT is strictly about Aizen's way to obtain transcendence. The only other characters who should benefit from this are Adneyus and SK Yhwach.

2. The fact it took time for Aizen to reappear, shows that it is not teleportation at all, but rather him physically travelling. And the fact Ichigo looks around shows that he couldn't sense Aizen while he was like this, which shows it isn't deconstruction either, as ichigo would have been able to sense him.

"The statement of him transcending 3d beings in the same way the 3d beings transcend 2d ones is just self glaze."​

The statement comes from the second smartest guy in the verse, an extraordinary genius-possible supergenius with information analysis. Unless you believe he is lying to himself, it doesn’t make sense for that to not be true. Even more, lying to himself implies that he knows it's a lie. So why would he be thinking that in this case? This must be taken at face value, literally any other interpretation makes no sense and contradicts the story.

"Aizen seemed pretty affected by Gin, this deffinetely isn't how a 4 dimensional being would behave. "​

Yeah, he was shouting and screaming. Which, for all we know, requires having lungs. However, his lungs, at least from our 3d perspective, were completely destroyed by Gin's poison. This isn’t a very strong evidence, yet it clearly shows there's something beyond what our 3d pov allows us to see.

Note: In the end, despite all the evidence, one can still argue to some degree against HDE by bringing up antifeats. Hence the "possible" rating.

And here are the proposals:

All transcendent entities except Ichigo get:

All of the other current Bleach physiologies.

Extrasensory Perception(1 layer)

Acausality type 4 with shown resistance to Causality Manipulation, Precognition - scans and likely Fate Manipulation(They are able to follow different futures than the ones who were likely chosen by the Almighty)

Abstract Existence type 1(laws) Interraction, Law Manipulation, Invulnerability Negation(Soul Manipulation & Mind Manipulation)

Immortality type 5 (a likely rating could work too imo)

Possible Higher Dimensional Exisence

Resistance to Extrasensory Perception

Unconventional Resistance to Law Manipulation

I know some of the things proposed here have been tried before, but I believe this CRT contains more evidence than any of those made before it.

Also, I know this CRT is still open, but it likely won't get any new mod check at all, the last reply with scaling purposes was 2 months ago and it has 5 pages full of more or less unreasonable arguments because of the OP's proposal, Conceptual Manipulation that doesn't really hold. As for the only argument against any ability addition, some of the evidence I brought directly debunks it.

Btw, I will work on a Transcendent Physiology blog and anyone can help. However, before that, I need the content of the CRT approved.

Agree: @Jo-Smooth

Disagree:

Neutral: @Ghostimuscrime @PizzaDante67
 
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yeah def no lol, don’t feel like responding right now but this is pretty bad, if nobody else responds then I’ll do it but for now yall can handle it
 
also, btw, this is the fourth Bleach CRT currently open. if we could vote on this and this first that would be great. I have a fairly simple Multi-Galaxy upgrade in mind and I’m waiting on there to be fewer currently open CRTs to post
 
MillenniumSunny said:
yeah def no lol, don’t feel like responding right now but this is pretty bad, if nobody else responds then I’ll do it but for now yall can handle it
Click to expand...
You say "no" cuz you disagree or simply because you're ignoring this for now? Also, mind explaining what is bad? You make it sound like missed smth
 
ItsMeat said:
You say "no" cuz you disagree or simply because you're ignoring this for now? Also, mind explaining what is bad? You make it sound like missed smth
Click to expand...
No as in I disagree, mainly with TYBW Aizen being transcendent (although he is a Reio candidate), and a lot of the abilities granted to the transcendents. If I have some spare time later today or if I feel like there should be a response, I’ll come back to this.
 
ItsMeat said:
I think I did show Kubo saying Aizen is still transcendent tho
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this isn't klub outside first of all, pretty sure it's the TYBW Blu-Ray booklet which is still canon material, but Kubo didn't write this and it contradicts the arrancar arc. it wouldn't make much sense for him to still be transcendent considering his deepest wish was just to "be just another soul reaper", and the Hōgyoku accomplished that. he's still fused with the Hōgyoku of course, so the statement has to be in reference to him no longer being transcendent, rather "just another soul reaper"
 
Before any broader discussion, it’s necessary to point out the problematic stance here regarding the nature of the Cleaner.

You are bringing into this thread an argument that is still ongoing in another one — and that, at the very least, is a low move. A more appropriate approach would be to wait for the repercussion and maturation of the responses there, and only then assess whether there is enough basis to update Aizen’s profile and other based on what you want for the Cleaner.

Furthermore, it’s impossible to ignore the fact that you completely disregarded the counterarguments already presented, which were based on translations much closer to the original Japanese. It is strange — not to say convenient — that you didn’t even maintain consistency with that, instead choosing to rely on a biased and already refuted reading as if it were the only possible one.

This kind of attitude is harmful, because it gives the impression that you’re not genuinely interested in testing the validity of your interpretation, but rather in forcing a specific canon to justify an update.
 
this is also the fourth or fifth ongoing Bleach CRT lol, in all honesty just close this thread, make your arguments in that other thread, and let's resolve some of these other ones before continuing with new content
 
Anypersonburnimagines said:
Before any broader discussion, it’s necessary to point out the problematic stance here regarding the nature of the Cleaner.

You are bringing into this thread an argument that is still ongoing in another one — and that, at the very least, is a low move. A more appropriate approach would be to wait for the repercussion and maturation of the responses there, and only then assess whether there is enough basis to update Aizen’s profile and other based on what you want for the Cleaner.
Click to expand...
C'mon, that thread is dead. There's no mod coming to check it. It was literally the hottest thread of the week when it was posted and it has 5 pages of endless debates based on half of the information that can be found în this crt. People repeatedly called mods and none of them came.
Anypersonburnimagines said:
Furthermore, it’s impossible to ignore the fact that you completely disregarded the counterarguments already presented, which were based on translations much closer to the original Japanese. It is strange — not to say convenient — that you didn’t even maintain consistency with that, instead choosing to rely on a biased and already refuted reading as if it were the only possible one.
Click to expand...
Most of the counterarguments were against the conceptual nature of the feat and I said clearly that it is not conceptual manipulation. And about the other counterargs, they were based on fragments of the evidence here. Any of the translations for 理（ことわり) can be labeled as Law Manipulation. Additionally, we have things like Gin saying Aizen messed the fabric of reality which fits law manipulation and at the same time shows that he actually has an ability that affects reality. This was not brought up in that crt and this is why people actually made arguments against aizen having any ability from this at all.
Also, the reio-like nature and the fact they work on a different system of laws. All these are new evidence never brought before that would have reduced the debates in that crt by around 80%
Anypersonburnimagines said:
This kind of attitude is harmful, because it gives the impression that you’re not genuinely interested in testing the validity of your interpretation, but rather in forcing a specific canon to justify an update.
Click to expand...
I believe the evidence I brought debunks those counterarguments and also I didn't want to make this longer than necessary, so I limited myself at debunking all possible "debunks" that I could think of to what I presented, which, again, I consider to already debunk those counterarguments
 
Well, as we learn in CFYOW(and I made sure to include the scans), Reio is a being transcending everything, which's existence could be called "ultimate". He is indeed transcendent and he should have all of the Bleach physiologies on his profile, but he has Aizen's type of transcedence. He is a hybrid of all races, like Ichigo, that transcends the races, like Aizen. And anyway, Aizen fused with his zanpakto following the same transcendence route as ichigo after he already obtained his own type of transcendence. And by merging with the Hōgyoku, he also obtained transcendent quincy and fullbringer parts(from Reio) . Even more, we know he seeked, achieved and even surprassed a Reio-like existence. As for Yhwach, he literally absorbed the main body of the Soul King, obtaining a similar nature and power.
Click to expand...
Reio is not a hollow.

I'm not really sure if acausality type 4 is considered for this. You don't actually evaluate why it's acausality type 4, the definitions, and why it fits it.

This is a problem. A mod isn't going to like the lack of proper justification of why it specifically entails these types of acausality and levels of ability. I suggest you close the thread, and then come back with it, but stronger.
 
MillenniumSunny said:
this isn't klub outside first of all, pretty sure it's the TYBW Blu-Ray booklet which is still canon material, but Kubo didn't write this and it contradicts the arrancar arc. it wouldn't make much sense for him to still be transcendent considering his deepest wish was just to "be just another soul reaper", and the Hōgyoku accomplished that. he's still fused with the Hōgyoku of course, so the statement has to be in reference to him no longer being transcendent, rather "just another soul reaper"
Click to expand...
I think it is on klub outside but not in the q&a, here. Also, even ichigo admits it's just a possibility by saying "maybe". And we know this wish didn't come true/he began wishing for other things, as he became at least as powerfull as he was in his 5th fusion and he regained his abilities, like regen, remained immortal(able to live his 20k years sentence) and so on. And then, there comes the klub outside scan, which you agreed to be canon and the fact he is the only one able to sense yhwach becoming transcendent, just as I said in the OP
 
Guacamolefletcher said:
Reio is not a hollow.
Click to expand...
In the section you qouted, the link for reio, is to an imgur where it says reio has all those power.
Guacamolefletcher said:
I'm not really sure if acausality type 4 is considered for this. You don't actually evaluate why it's acausality type 4, the definitions, and why it fits it.
Click to expand...
You mean for this:
"To prove his power suprassed reason, Aizen destroys the cleaner", which is a creature of reason. Also, do remember that Aizen became a Reio-like being, operating on an unconventional logic and a system of different laws, as, for them, "reason is but a shield for those who cover behind it". Keeping in mind that even weakened Adneyus has been granted Acausality type 4, I think it is fair to do the same for our transcendentals.

"B-but Aizen told Orihime that her powers could work on the Hōgyoku, so no Acausality type 4."​

Aizen simply lied to manipulate her. As everyone knows, Orihime was nothing more for Aizen, but a bait for Gotei13. His manipulation skills worked so perfectly on her, to the point she would do things against her will just because Aizen wanted so. Thus, she won't try to escape from Hueco Mundo, as she felt she could be usefull there by finding the chance to reject Hōgyoku's existence. In addition, why would an extraordinary genius like him take unnecessary risks? Because he was cocky? I think some people need to be reminded that he became "cocky" only after taking the orb into himself, which happenned after he showed her the Hōgyoku and the "interest" he had in her powers.
Click to expand...
? That's like all of the acausality type 4 evidence in bleach and soul king was already accepted to be acausal with much less. And that is also included in this CRT.
Guacamolefletcher said:
This is a problem. A mod isn't going to like the lack of proper justification of why it specifically entails these types of acausality and levels of ability. I suggest you close the thread, and then come back with it, but stronger.
Click to expand...
Agreed, the thread should be closed, it didn't start well at all
 
I think it’s safe to use to provide a general idea but if any scaling is derived from specific interpretations or kanji gooning or has controversial TL overall then a real translator should be called in, that’s my personal opinion as it’s not like he’ll have any luck in the translation requests thread which has been sitting dead for weeks now
 
ItsMeat said:
C'mon, that thread is dead. There's no mod coming to check it. It was literally the hottest thread of the week when it was posted and it has 5 pages of endless debates based on half of the information that can be found în this crt. People repeatedly called mods and none of them came.
Click to expand...
That doesn’t really improve your position on this matter. If you wanted to address the same subject from the linked thread, then, being honest, the proper way would be to first address the repercussions of the discussion itself — not just your personal opinion conveniently coinciding with the original poster’s stance. What you did here is essentially an omission.

Secondly, trying to carry over the debate of an unresolved thread into a new one is not the right method to resolve the issue. All that does is create an even bigger mess.
ItsMeat said:
I believe the evidence I brought debunks those counterarguments and also I didn't want to make this longer than necessary, so I limited myself at debunking all possible "debunks" that I could think of to what I presented, which, again, I consider to already debunk those counterarguments
Click to expand...
You claim that the evidence you brought here has already “debunked” the problems from the previous thread, but I honestly don’t see it — which counterarguments, exactly, did you debunk? The content you presented here is very different from the counterpoints that were raised in the Cleaner thread, and it doesn’t actually address them.
 
Anypersonburnimagines said:
That doesn’t really improve your position on this matter. If you wanted to address the same subject from the linked thread, then, being honest, the proper way would be to first address the repercussions of the discussion itself — not just your personal opinion conveniently coinciding with the original poster’s stance. What you did here is essentially an omission.
Click to expand...
I think I mentioned the fact the thread is dead since 2 months ago. I reinforced the content of that thread with new info and explained why it is indeed what I proposed.

And what I did is the contrary of an omission. I simply brought all the available information on the subject in orther to achieve the correct evaluation which I believe aligns with my proposals, hence this entire thread's existence
Anypersonburnimagines said:
Secondly, trying to carry over the debate of an unresolved thread into a new one is not the right method to resolve the issue. All that does is create an even bigger mess.
Click to expand...
Most of the mess was created by the way this crt was made with like 6 replies only about how people can't acces my sandbox. And judging the importance of the upgrades proposed, I really doubt it is ok to let the proposal die once with that thread.
Anypersonburnimagines said:
You claim that the evidence you brought here has already “debunked” the problems from the previous thread, but I honestly don’t see it — which counterarguments, exactly, did you debunk?
Click to expand...
How about you first actually present a counterargument from that thread that can still be used here without ignoring some content of this crt? I am extremely skeptic regarding the existence of such an argument, but sure, if you think there is one, all I ask is that you show it.

And I don't claim problems were "debunked". The main problem was op's proposal, cm type 1 which lacked a lot of further information to support the point. However, this time, I think I brought enough evidence for all the proposals.
Anypersonburnimagines said:
The content you presented here is very different from the counterpoints that were raised in the Cleaner thread, and it doesn’t actually address them.
Click to expand...
The thread's op was wrong, therefore a large majority of the counterpoints in that thread are unappliable here by default due to the extreme difference in the proposal. I also adressed the possible translations and explained that all those possible meanings of 理（ことわり) fit law manipulation, especially given the context.

Instead of adressing everything that was written there, I bring more evidence that supports my proposals and debunks the counterarguments from that thread. Tell me this is no ability, as the "counterarguments" from that thread claimed.

Anyway, I understand your opinion on the existence of this crt, now, please tell me your opinion on its content and the proposals.
 
I agree with everything besides higher dimensional existence, and saying Aizen’s teleportation is him moving through the 4th spatial dimensional axis is a huge reach. Higher Dimensional AP, yea, but existence? Nah. Especially when in context, Aizen’s referring to spiritual energy levels rather than existence. But I agree with the other proposals

Also, this is more lore than specific to the thread, but the Soul King isn’t a Hollow, and it’s hard to say he’s a Shinigami as Shinigami are ‘normal’ souls that have Asauchi and Zanpakuto which didn’t exist when Reio came into existence. Even him being a Quincy is questionable as he didn’t seem to eradicate hollows from existence. Quincy are of his lineage and his Reishi manip is likely god tier but him actually being a Quincy probably isn’t true. Same for being a Fullbringer. We don’t know if any item he bonded with and his soul subjugation is probably god tier but he probably can’t be considered a Fullbringer in the same way as well.

But with the anime now and new info, his sword could potentially make him a Shinigami/Fullbringer of sort in full
 
Jo-Smooth said:
I agree with everything besides higher dimensional existence, and saying Aizen’s teleportation is him moving through the 4th spatial dimensional axis is a huge reach. Higher Dimensional AP, yea, but existence? Nah. Especially when in context, Aizen’s referring to spiritual energy levels rather than existence. But I agree with the other proposals

Also, this is more lore than specific to the thread, but the Soul King isn’t a Hollow, and it’s hard to say he’s a Shinigami as Shinigami are ‘normal’ souls that have Asauchi and Zanpakuto which didn’t exist when Reio came into existence. Even him being a Quincy is questionable as he didn’t seem to eradicate hollows from existence. Quincy are of his lineage and his Reishi manip is likely god tier but him actually being a Quincy probably isn’t true. Same for being a Fullbringer. We don’t know if any item he bonded with and his soul subjugation is probably god tier but he probably can’t be considered a Fullbringer in the same way as well.

But with the anime now and new info, his sword could potentially make him a Shinigami/Fullbringer of sort in full
Click to expand...
Yeah, I linked 2 imgurs where it is said(in the first one) and implied(in the second one) he's all these races' powers. Anyway, understandable opinion on hde, I also only have it labeled as possible.
 
ItsMeat said:
I think I mentioned the fact the thread is dead since 2 months ago. I reinforced the content of that thread with new info and explained why it is indeed what I proposed.

And what I did is the contrary of an omission. I simply brought all the available information on the subject in orther to achieve the correct evaluation which I believe aligns with my proposals, hence this entire thread's existence

Most of the mess was created by the way this crt was made with like 6 replies only about how people can't acces my sandbox. And judging the importance of the upgrades proposed, I really doubt it is ok to let the proposal die once with that thread.
Click to expand...
Opening another thread with the same problem just because the previous one has been inactive for two months doesn’t solve anything — it only splits the discussion, fragments the arguments, and weakens any chance of reaching a consensus.

You don’t understand. The issue is not time, but method. If the original thread had stalled, the proper course of action would have been to reorganize it there and once again request moderator intervention — not to simply recreate the same arguments for the Kototsu in a different space, as if that were the natural continuation of the debate.

And yes, this is a form of omission, because you disregarded the responses that had already been given and did not address them directly. You merely presented a repackaged version of your own ideas. That is not the same as “presenting all available information,” since there was no real engagement with the points that had already been raised.
ItsMeat said:
How about you first actually present a counterargument from that thread that can still be used here without ignoring some content of this crt? I am extremely skeptic regarding the existence of such an argument, but sure, if you think there is one, all I ask is that you show it.
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Your request for me to bring forward a counterargument from the old thread “that could still apply here” only reinforces my point. You are essentially admitting that the new thread does not actually address the previous counterarguments, because the way you structured it was precisely to avoid confronting those refutations directly.
ItsMeat said:
And I don't claim problems were "debunked". The main problem was op's proposal, cm type 1 which lacked a lot of further information to support the point. However, this time, I think I brought enough evidence for all the proposals.
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The central problem, yes, was with the original proposal, which was insufficient. However, the problem wasn’t limited to that: many of the arguments were also built on weak foundations, such as inaccurate translations of the source material, fragmented readings of isolated phrases, and analyses that ignored the broader context.

All of this had already been addressed, so the problem lay not only in the proposal itself, but also in a significant portion of the arguments, since they were built on flawed premises.
ItsMeat said:
The thread's op was wrong, therefore a large majority of the counterpoints in that thread are unappliable here by default due to the extreme difference in the proposal. I also adressed the possible translations and explained that all those possible meanings of 理（ことわり) fit law manipulation, especially given the context.
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You claimed that the opinion in the old thread was wrong and therefore most counterarguments would not apply here. But that is only an assertion — not a demonstration.

Simply believing that the original proposal was flawed does not erase the responses given, nor does it automatically render the counterarguments irrelevant. As for your point that any possible translation of 理 (kotowari) falls under law manipulation: that is not entirely accurate either. The term 側 (gawa), used in the same sentence, completely shifts the semantic framing, since it indicates “side/affiliation” rather than “essential nature.” This makes your interpretation highly questionable. Claiming that “all meanings of 理 fall under law manipulation” is to force a single rigid interpretation, where the context clearly allows for nuances that contradict your conclusion.
ItsMeat said:
Instead of adressing everything that was written there, I bring more evidence that supports my proposals and debunks the counterarguments from that thread. Tell me this is no ability, as the "counterarguments" from that thread claimed.
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I’m really not interested in debating this any further, because my discontent with the thread isn’t actually about the discussion itself, but about the implication of the nature attributed to the Kototsu. And that implication was built on false premises, mistranslations, and flawed interpretations of the sentence’s semantics.
ItsMeat said:
Anyway, I understand your opinion on the existence of this crt, now, please tell me your opinion on its content and the proposals.
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Except for the case of the Kototsu, unfortunately I haven’t read enough of your other arguments to be able to give a well-founded opinion. Maybe I’ll read them and respond on another occasion. Who knows…
 
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Yeah, I always thought the arguments against AE (law) was lowkey ass. Agree with it but HDE was... An interesting thought to say the least... It does make sense but ehh... I suppose I'm fin with possible rating here considering the kind of tricky situation it is.

Also how would we classify Ichigo's transcendent state as? Atleast he would have resistance and counter to everything Aizen has, no?
 
SuperSonicTL said:
Yeah, I always thought the arguments against AE (law) was lowkey ass. Agree with it but HDE was... An interesting thought to say the least... Also how would we classify Ichigo's transcendent state as? Atleast he would have resistance and counter to everything Aizen has, no?
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Lmao, the thread has been dead for months

Uhhhh, yeah, ichigo should have counters for all that aizen has, maybe except imm5, at least back in deicide arc, but should also have 2layers of extrasensory perception and 1 layer of resistance to it
 
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