Brawl Stars Calc Issue

[ElJoaki5]

This calc was just added and it has a pretty evident problem.

Quoting from KE feats:
"Speed cannot be used to find KE when there is a destruction/AP calculation contradicting a kinetic energy calculation. The destruction/AP calculation would take priority over the kinetic energy calculation in this case as the AP calculation would be a better proof in regards to how much damage he/she is capable of in an attack.

• For example, if a character launches a 200kg metal ball against a common wall at Mach 300, but the wall remains largely undamaged, the energy required to cause the minor damage on the wall would take priority over the kinetic energy derived from speed in this case.”

This is the case here, the attack only causes a small explosion and the KE of the drop isn’t even capable of destroying walls, it needs a star power to do so. (Walls are destructible with certain attacks in the game).
The addition of this calc should be undone due to this.

 

[ElJoaki5]

Bump

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I feel like the argument in the OP is more like game mechanics, it’s like saying almost 99% attacks in the game are below Street level/Wall level since they cannot destroy the bushes/walls.

 

[ElJoaki5]

I feel like the argument in the OP is more like game mechanics, it’s like saying almost 99% attacks in the game are below Street level/Wall level since they cannot destroy the bushes/walls.

Walls are breakable ingame and this attack cant break em

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Walls are breakable ingame and this attack cant break em

Squeak’s, Crow’s and Mandy’s supers can’t break walls either. They can’t even break bushes. Yet they do most damage in the game. Below 9-C Brawl Stars?

Just game mechanics.

 

[ElJoaki5]

Squeak’s, Crow’s and Mandy’s supers can’t break walls either. They can’t even break bushes. Yet they do most damage in the game. Below 9-C Brawl Stars?

Just game mechanics.

This is a specific rule for KE feats calculations. The whole verse isnt gonna get downgraded because the overall AP doesnt match the DC.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

This is the case here, the attack only causes a small explosion and the KE of the drop isn’t even capable of destroying walls, it needs a star power to do so. (Walls are destructible with certain attacks in the game).
The addition of this calc should be undone due to this.

Game Mechanics;

1. As @TheOrangeGuy09 say
2. Also Brawlers can use all their Star Powers in all time.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

This is a specific rule for KE feats calculations. The whole verse isnt gonna get downgraded because the overall AP doesnt match the DC.

We still need to take game logic into consideration when dealing with games, especially the ones like Brawl Stars.

 

[ElJoaki5]

Also Brawlers can use all their Star Powers in all time.

They cant. It doesnt matter if they apparently do it in an animation. The game is the main canon obviously and they can only use one star power there.
+Its still no the KE of the drop that breaks the wall. Its a bonb inside it

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

The whole verse isnt gonna get downgraded because the overall AP doesnt match the DC.

The whole verse itself can destroy Walls and barriers with a normal strike and even making explosions but in the game they can't do it because its Game Mechanics. Also There are literally walls made of food in the game that can't be destroyed with a normal attack and some of Brawler's super, so is this means Food can survive from explosions and firestrikes???? Lol

They cant. It doesnt matter if they apparently do it in an animation. The game is the main canon obviously and they can only use one star power there.

Well, no, this animation itself is on game. And also Animation>Game since it's original.

+Its still no the KE of the drop that breaks the wall. Its a bonb inside it

Well just fix calcs.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I heavily agree with the OP.

The whole verse itself can destroy Walls and barriers with a normal strike

Those animations literally show characters directly hitting walls and not even significantly damaging them. One of them is literally hitting tires and not even destroying them. The very animations you're sending serves at anti feats…

In the game they can't do it because its Game Mechanics.

Game mechanics still allow things like El Primos jump to leave noticeable cracks in the ground.

Yet Ruffs' drop doesn't even do that.

So the game mechanics argument doesn't really work because no gameplay reasons stopped him from at least cracking the ground.

Also There are literally walls made of food in the game that can't be destroyed with a normal attack and some of Brawler's super, so is this means Food can survive from explosions and firestrikes???? Lol

Normal food can't actually be used to make walls (lol) so it's probably more durable than that…

Well, no, this animation itself is on game. And also Animation>Game since it's original.

Uhh not really? The animations are usually just trailers for the game and tend to create pretty big contradictions to the game.

Saying trailers for a game are more canon than the game itself is just silly.

Squeak’s, Crow’s and Mandy’s supers can’t break walls either. They can’t even break bushes. Yet they do most damage in the game. Below 9-C Brawl Stars?

Unironically, why not? Most brawlers use stuff like various guns, cannons, trains, dynamites, etc while mostly incapable of breaking walls whether it's animation or game. BS is consistently tier 9

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Unironically, why not? Most brawlers use stuff like various guns, cannons, trains, dynamites, etc while mostly incapable of breaking walls whether it's animation or game. BS is consistently tier 9

Me when 99% of Brawl Stars is now at best 10-A cuz game mechanics:

 

[DavidTPPM]

Me when 99% of Brawl Stars is now at best 10-A cuz game mechanics:

Uhhh no lol. Each wall in the game generally seems like to be at least 1 m³ (which is accepted for our dynamike calc) meaning fragmenting it would require 8000000 J which is just about 2.5x below 9-A (small building level) so them not breaking walls with a single hit doesn't cap them at 10-A, it caps them extremely high into 9-B.

Given the difference between destroying a single BS wall and baseline 9-B is literally 533.3x, it would still allow for 9-B striking strength for all non wall breaking attacks.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Uhhh no lol. Each wall in the game generally seems like to be at least 1 m³ (which is accepted for our dynamike calc) meaning fragmenting it would require 8000000 J which is just about 2.5x below 9-A (small building level) so them not breaking walls with a single hit doesn't cap them at 10-A, it caps them extremely high into 9-B.

Given the difference between destroying a single BS wall and baseline 9-B is literally 533.3x, it would still allow for 9-B striking strength for all non wall breaking attacks.

Many of them don’t destroy bushes either, which is below even 9-C. In fact, I think probably an average person can destroy bushes.

So 10-C most of Brawl Stars

 

[DavidTPPM]

Many of them don’t destroy bushes either, which is below even 9-C. In fact, I think probably an average person can destroy bushes.

Bushes in BS are unusually wide super tall grass which makes people literally invisible inside and under certain circumstances (such as with a gadget or gear) it can even heal or damage people, so they could easily just be some supernatural plant.

So 10-C most of Brawl Stars

I mean, you're saying it as if it was some crazy unreasonable downgrade but half of these mfers are literally just humans with guns. There's literal children that throw teeth, lollipops, balloons, etc. Some of the most recent characters were literally a random middle aged Korean, a K-pop star, a girl that pretends to be an alligator, and soon a bunch of ants or whatever the new brawler is meant to be.

So while I don't agree with your conclusion, 10-C brawl stars IS very much reasonable lmao

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Bushes in BS are unusually wide super tall grass which makes people literally invisible inside

Stealth Mastery for Brawlers. Literal invisibility (like Leon or Sandy) is a bit different when you look at how gadgets/star powers interact with both.

and under certain circumstances (such as with a gadget or gear) it can even heal or damage people, so they could easily just be some supernatural plant.

No, it’s more of Brawlers’ ability to get healed or get faster in bushes rather than bushes’ ability to grant these. Because bushes don’t do this to everyone, but rather selected Brawlers have that specific ability.

I mean, you're saying it as if it was some crazy unreasonable downgrade but half of these mfers are literally just humans with guns. There's literal children that throw teeth, lollipops, balloons, etc. Some of the most recent characters were literally a random middle aged Korean, a K-pop star, a girl that pretends to be an alligator, and soon a bunch of ants or whatever the new brawler is meant to be.

…and many other verses have that too yet scale high. For a real example: a certain verse uses toy knive, stick, tough glove, empty gun, ballet shoes, torn notebook, worn dagger and etc. for a literal weapon that a kid can use to damage and kill almost all of characters in the game, yet the verse somehow stays at Tier 8 (Tier 9 is planned to be removed soon via chainscaling).

So while I don't agree with your conclusion, 10-C brawl stars IS very much reasonable lmao

Idk, sounds pretty much like Undertale being 10-C cuz everyone can be killed by a child with a stick lol.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Stealth Mastery for Brawlers.

Or supernatural plants. I mean what's more likely?
That 100 completely different random people ranging from kids to middle aged karaoke singers to trains, giant mechs, zombies incapable of speech, and movie stars are ALL somehow experts at stealth but ONLY in bushes, or that the bushes are just not normal?

Literal invisibility (like Leon or Sandy) is a bit different when you look at how gadgets/star powers interact with both.

I mean, sure it is a little bit different but that's besides my point. My point is that the bushes clearly have some supernatural aspect that makes you completely impossible to see when inside without obstructing the vision of the person inside of them. Similarly to how they don't slow down a person at all nor do they appear move when you walk through them, etc etc.

All pointing towards the conclusion that the bushes are not normal.

No, it’s more of Brawlers’ ability to get healed or get faster in bushes rather than bushes’ ability to grant these. Because bushes don’t do this to everyone, but rather selected Brawlers have that specific ability.

Yeah but those abilities are strictly reserved for bushes meaning they are some sort of catalyst for the ability. So it's not caused just by the brawler having an ability but also by the bushes themselves.

It's not 100% evidence ofc but it's strong supportive evidence for everything else.

…and many other verses have that too yet scale high.

Whataboutism doesn't really help. Other verses also have completely different feats and contexts for those feats.

Idk, sounds pretty much like Undertale being 10-C cuz everyone can be killed by a child with a stick lol.

Yeah except it's a different verse with different feats under different contexts so it doesn't matter at all here.

And as far as I'm aware they are not trying to argue an attack that doesn't even crack the ground is 7-B because of KE soooo

 

[ElJoaki5]

Bump

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

So the game mechanics argument doesn't really work because no gameplay reasons stopped him from at least cracking the ground.

If I’m gonna collide a moon with earth, I can’t show cracks as a side effect of the attack because that heavily undermines the gravity of a giant celestial body colliding with another, same with the rocket stuff on here, cracks on the ground gives you an explicit cap that contradicts the intention and by extension makes it unusable, to fully showcase sth dropping from outer space into the ground you at bare minimum would need to have a visible crater, not cracks, a huge crater in which characters can fall into and the game is not designed to support having showings like that, something being breakable ≠ everything being breakable, the game isn’t designed like Minecraft and many of the level designs in brawl stars rely on unique and intentional wall arrangements that make it more challenging for the player, so stuff like walls, ground (maybe even puddles?) cannot be destroyed no matter what, so yeah this basically boils down to game mechanics not being usable for powerscaling (or else we would have Kratos at at Tier 9 lmao)


I also think an attack that was stated to spawn from outerspace being argued to scaled below el primo's ground shattering feat is a very jarring red flag, El Primo isn't even using his AP he's just jumping from the ground that is definitely not a stronger attack

---

I don't think a stronger entity being hyped up for something doesn't automatically mean the lower things arent allowed to have similar scaling unless the text implies it's never before seen power which doesn't seem to be the case as I read the OP's linked text, It’s no different than saying goku isn’t Tier 2 because some characters bring up planet/galaxy busting statements

So I would have to disagree with this thread

 

[DavidTPPM]

If I’m gonna collide a moon with earth, I can’t show cracks as a side effect of the attack because that heavily undermines the gravity of a giant celestial body colliding with another, same with the rocket stuff on here, cracks on the ground gives you an explicit cap that contradicts the intention and by extension makes it unusable,

First of all, no you very much can show cracks on the ground.
Secondly, you also can't yk, not even destroy a wall or the KE calc of that feat would be useless.

to fully showcase sth dropping from outer space into the ground you at bare minimum would need to have a visible crater, not cracks, a huge crater in which characters can fall into and the game is not designed to support having showings like that, something being breakable ≠ everything being breakable, the game isn’t designed like Minecraft and many of the level designs in brawl stars rely on unique and intentional wall arrangements that make it more challenging for the player, so stuff like walls, ground (maybe even puddles?) cannot be destroyed no matter what, so yeah this basically boils down to game mechanics not being usable for powerscaling (or else we would have Kratos at at Tier 9 lmao)

That's just objectively wrong. Many MANY attacks can and do break walls. Like half of the supers and countless gadgets break walls. Literally Ruffs himself breaks walls with his super if it has a star power.

I also think an attack that was stated to spawn from outerspace being argued to scaled below el primo's ground shattering feat is a very jarring red flag, El Primo isn't even using his AP he's just jumping from the ground that is definitely not a stronger attack

Yet we are scaling that jump to Ruffs' super as it can damage other brawlers. If you agree that Primo's jump is not tier 7 then neither is any brawler.

I don't think a stronger entity being hyped up for something doesn't automatically mean the lower things arent allowed to have similar scaling unless the text implies it's never before seen power

I don’t understand what you mean here. There is no "hype statement" being used as a contradiction, only the blatantly contradictory destruction caused by Ruffs' super and the countless contradictions for this level of power for Brawlers.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

1) I don't think your grasping two very simple things i) you cannot show a lesser result for a much larger feat, then the large feat isn't large anymore. ii) just because a series can invest a little into some nice DC showings doesn't bind the entirety of it to only being able to show DC showings exclusively, GOW will drop the most 4K HDR cinematic styled tier 9 boulder feat despite scaling far higher into those tier 1 ranges, same with DOOM, same with DMC

2) It would appear I was wrong regarding the walls, it's been a year since I've played the game so my fault on that but I believe my point still stands, the walls are allowed to break because the game design supports that, the same way destroying any structure is minecraft is built onto the game's structure which allows it to happen, Brawl Stars does not, the craters would be much more complex to design especially all just to hype up 1 ability of a character not many people use in the game, the floor cannot be destroyed per the game's code regardless of how many joules you are packing onto your attack

Yet we are scaling that jump to Ruffs' super as it can damage other brawlers. If you agree that Primo's jump is not tier 7 then neither is any brawler.

Looks like a consequence of inverse scaling to me, it can scale to whatever if it is via chain scaling, my comment was in context to direct joule value comparison

I don’t understand what you mean here. There is no "hype statement" being used as a contradiction, only the blatantly contradictory destruction caused by Ruffs' super and the countless contradictions for this level of power for Brawlers.

The last part was addressing the OP not yours, hence the line

 

[DavidTPPM]

1) I don't think your grasping two very simple things i) you cannot show a lesser result for a much larger feat, then the large feat isn't large anymore.

Uhhh exactly? The game is showing a much lesser result for a supposedly "large feat" which is currently used to heavily inflate it to 7-B, so by what you said it's not a large feat anymore and should be removed.

ii) just because a series can invest a little into some nice DC showings doesn't bind the entirety of it to only being able to show DC showings exclusively, GOW will drop the most 4K HDR cinematic styled tier 9 boulder feat despite scaling far higher into those tier 1 ranges, same with DOOM, same with DMC

That's not even close to what I'm saying. I'm saying that since the gameplay very much allows a certain amount of destruction, Ruffs not only not causing even that allowed max level destruction but SPECIFICALLY using the lack of DC to differentiate between his regular and amped version of the super clearly debunks it being able to destroy the walls and ground.

You're confusing the argument. The argument is that Ruffs not even destroying the walls or cracking the ground - 2 DC things the gameplay DOES ALLOW, it shows that his lack of DC isn't a game mechanic limitation but a deliberate design choice from the developers. Something that's even strengthened by the fact he can amp his attack in a way that DOES destroy walls, which means again him not destroying walls isn't a game mechanic limitation but a lack of power behind Ruffs super which can be added.

2) It would appear I was wrong regarding the walls, it's been a year since I've played the game so my fault on that but I believe my point still stands, the walls are allowed to break because the game design supports that,

And Ruffs super doesn't do that proving his lack of DC is not just caused by game limitations…

the same way destroying any structure is minecraft is built onto the game's structure which allows it to happen, Brawl Stars does not, the craters would be much more complex to design

El Primos super cracks the ground and can even leave it on fire for a bit. It's not something they have to additionally design for Ruffs, it's something that one of OG on-release brawlers had already implemented.

So again, the game DOES allow it for many other brawlers. So Ruffs not being able to do so without an amp to his super is not caused by a game mechanic limitation but by a deliberate choice of how his super will be displayed.

Looks like a consequence of inverse scaling to me, it can scale to whatever if it is via chain scaling, my comment was in context to direct joule value comparison

Yeah and my point was that the ability is considered to scale to/above Ruffs super so saying "erm Primo falling on the ground can't be stronger he's just a dude" is just factually incorrect because both the game and the profile consider it as such.

So ultimately this is a feat that in its current interpretation creates a massive outlier and is heavily contradicted by purposeful lack of DC which goes directly against KE rules.

 

[ElJoaki5]

Bump

 

[Dinozxd]

Disagree with the OP FRA

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Uhhh exactly? The game is showing a much lesser result for a supposedly "large feat" which is currently used to heavily inflate it to 7-B, so by what you said it's not a large feat anymore and should be removed.

That's not even close to what I'm saying. I'm saying that since the gameplay very much allows a certain amount of destruction, Ruffs not only not causing even that allowed max level destruction but SPECIFICALLY using the lack of DC to differentiate between his regular and amped version of the super clearly debunks it being able to destroy the walls and ground.

You're confusing the argument. The argument is that Ruffs not even destroying the walls or cracking the ground - 2 DC things the gameplay DOES ALLOW, it shows that his lack of DC isn't a game mechanic limitation but a deliberate design choice from the developers. Something that's even strengthened by the fact he can amp his attack in a way that DOES destroy walls, which means again him not destroying walls isn't a game mechanic limitation but a lack of power behind Ruffs super which can be added.

And Ruffs super doesn't do that proving his lack of DC is not just caused by game limitations…

El Primos super cracks the ground and can even leave it on fire for a bit. It's not something they have to additionally design for Ruffs, it's something that one of OG on-release brawlers had already implemented.

So again, the game DOES allow it for many other brawlers. So Ruffs not being able to do so without an amp to his super is not caused by a game mechanic limitation but by a deliberate choice of how his super will be displayed.

Yeah and my point was that the ability is considered to scale to/above Ruffs super so saying "erm Primo falling on the ground can't be stronger he's just a dude" is just factually incorrect because both the game and the profile consider it as such.

So ultimately this is a feat that in its current interpretation creates a massive outlier and is heavily contradicted by purposeful lack of DC which goes directly against KE rules.

I don't feel like repeating myself, flames and cracks are not the same as a giant gaping crater you can fall into, it cannot be done in the same vein as Kratos not destroying the battle arena outside cutscenes despite being multiversal, this is still a glorified game mechanics abuse argument

 

[DavidTPPM]

I don't feel like repeating myself, flames and cracks are not the same as a giant gaping crater you can fall into, it cannot be done in the same vein as Kratos not destroying the battle arena outside cutscenes despite being multiversal, this is still a glorified game mechanics abuse argument

You are not understanding my argument at all or straight up purposely trying to misconstrue it. I'm not saying cracks and fire are the same as a city level hole. I'm saying that since Ruffs didn't even do that which is possible within the limitations of the game mechanics, it means the lack of DC is not a result of game mechanics.

If Ruffs' attack did the most possible damage to the map and that didn't fit the feat then you could say the game mechanics simply don't allow for greater destruction. But he DIDN'T. He could have made more destruction without any issues with game mechanics and the fact he didn't proves he didn't just reach the games limit but that the devs purposely made him do less DC.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

You are not understanding my argument at all or straight up purposely trying to misconstrue it. I'm not saying cracks and fire are the same as a city level hole. I'm saying that since Ruffs didn't even do that which is possible within the limitations of the game mechanics, it means the lack of DC is not a result of game mechanics.

If Ruffs' attack did the most possible damage to the map and that didn't fit the feat then you could say the game mechanics simply don't allow for greater destruction. But he DIDN'T. He could have made more destruction without any issues with game mechanics and the fact he didn't proves he didn't just reach the games limit but that the devs purposely made him do less DC.

I’m not even a fan of this game I deadass stopped playing a year ago and nothing can force me back into the game, I have no reason to misconstrue your words intentionally

What is under the limits of game mechanics isn’t enough to showcase the gravity of the feat so taking the time to show that would end up contradicting our values which cooks the whole argument (end result if contradicting the KE would be taken instead of KE per our rules) as opposed to just leaving it to transfer energy directly onto the foe

 

[DavidTPPM]

What is under the limits of game mechanics isn’t enough to showcase the gravity of the feat so taking the time to show that would end up contradicting our values which cooks the whole argument (end result if contradicting the KE would be taken instead of KE per our rules) as opposed to just leaving it to transfer energy directly onto the foe

That doesn't really address my argument here. My point is, the DC isn't low because it's capped by game mechanics as it doesn't even reach that cap.

If the maximum DC allowed by game mechanics is 8-C and the attack doesn't even reach 9-A DC then the low DC isn't caused by game mechanics but by a lack of power.

So the game mechanics argument doesn't work because if the DC was low as a result of game mechanics it should still be significantly higher than it is.

 

[M2u12]

I was originally not to comments in this CRT, but since I'm have some knowledge on calcing and calculation rules, I think I should be able to comment on this.

i think using KE to find energy from feat like this should be rejected.

If it not a game limitation that limits the DC of that feat then I think it is very clear that using KE causes unrealistic results.

keep in mind that this is Large Town level crater, 64 times less energy than the Ruffs' Suply Drop feat.

And I'm not saying that 7B DC is going to be like this or more then this, but the fact that Ruffs' Suply Drop feat isn't even reach 1% of this level of DC and it doesn't even leave a crack in the floor.

i agree with this CRT and reasons above that this calc should be rejected.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

That doesn't really address my argument here. My point is, the DC isn't low because it's capped by game mechanics as it doesn't even reach that cap.

If the maximum DC allowed by game mechanics is 8-C and the attack doesn't even reach 9-A DC then the low DC isn't caused by game mechanics but by a lack of power.

So the game mechanics argument doesn't work because if the DC was low as a result of game mechanics it should still be significantly higher than it is.

This is a repeated claim, idk how many times you need me to clarify the same thing again and again, hitting the DC limit claps all arguments related to a higher rating, why is that so hard to grasp?

 

[DavidTPPM]

This is a repeated claim, idk how many times you need me to clarify the same thing again and again, hitting the DC limit claps all arguments related to a higher rating, why is that so hard to grasp?

I'm repeating myself because you're not addressing the argument. Yes again hitting the DC cap would mean the DC could actually be higher but game mechanics limit what can be shown. But Ruffs DOESN'T HIT THE DC LIMIT. Ruffs being limited by game mechanics doesn't matter because he's not reaching that limit anyway so the argument that his DC is only low because of game mechanics doesn't work.

So for the last time, Ruffs' low DC can't be excused as game mechanics capping him at a certain level when game mechanics blatantly allow higher DC than what he's showing

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

So for the last time, Ruffs' low DC can't be excused as game mechanics capping him at a certain level when game mechanics blatantly allow higher DC than what he's showing

This doesn’t mean you should expect everyone to have DC. There is probably about a quarter/third of brawlers that can’t destroy literally anything with any techniques. It’s just a matter of whether the game developers want someone to destroy walls or no for game convenience. I. e. game mechanics.

 

[DavidTPPM]

This doesn’t mean you should expect everyone to have DC.

Yes same way you wouldn't expect everyone to have DC in every single feat they perform.
But if it's a feat where you're calculating KE, where the DC is crucial, you very much have to expect DC because a major part of KE rules is centered around DC not contradicting KE.

There is probably about a quarter/third of brawlers that can’t destroy literally anything with any techniques. It’s just a matter of whether the game developers want someone to destroy walls or no for game convenience. I. e. game mechanics.

Which is fine because we're not calculating their KE so the DC can contradict their AP.

The entire rule about contradictory DC for KE is centered around avoiding feats that over-inflate a characters strength above what was clearly intended and shown. This is basically a perfect example where a character in a tier 9 verse performs a feat that doesn't even have 9-A DC and creates an outlier that upscales the entire verse to tier 7, massively upscaling everyone way beyond what was ever intended. In other words this is a textbook example of a wrong KE calculation.

 

[Vzearr]

OP makes sense.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

This is a calc thread so all none calc members should not comment (naturally knowledgable and helpful comments are allowed), do we seriously need to call staff here to make sure that is kept? To make things worse, repeating the argument "it's game mechanic's" as a debunk for the 18th time is not helpful.

 

[Buraqibear]

BS is never making it out the trenches

 

[Buraqibear]

Did anything get anywhere here?