DOOM: The Dark Ages - Slayer Tier Revisions

[Firestorm808]

Questions, comments, or concerns?

Dark Ages Scaling Chain​

The Slayer < Enhanced Ahzrak < Transformed Prince Ahzrak < The Slayer w/ Rage Boost

All Post Divinity Machine Keys: higher with Power-ups and Rage Boost

Attack Potency:​

The Dark Ages: High Universe level (Capable of wielding and attacking with the "infinitely dense" Dreadmace), higher with Power-ups and Rage Boost (Defeated Transformed Prince Ahzrak), Up to Universe level+, possibly higher via the Demonic Crucible (It is a weapon said to have the power to corrupt all realms.)

2016: At least High Universe level, possibly higher (Stronger than before), higher with Power-ups and Rage Boost

Speed:​

The Dark Ages: At least Supersonic, likely higher (Faster than before. Comparable to if not quicker than most Demons), higher with Shield Bash

2016: At least Supersonic, likely higher (Likely much faster than before, can move this fast), higher with the Power-Ups and Runes. At least Hypersonic, likely higher attack speed with the Gauss Cannon

Lifting Strength:​

The Dark Ages: Infinite (Capable of wielding the "infinitely dense" Dreadmace), higher with Power-ups and Rage Boost

2016: Infinite, possibly higher (Stronger than before), higher with Power-ups and Rage Boost

Eternal: Infinite, likely higher (Stronger than before), higher with Power-ups and Rage Boost

Striking Strength:​

The Dark Ages: High Universe level (Capable of wielding the "infinitely dense" Dreadmace), higher with Power-ups and Rage Boost

2016: At least High Universe level, possibly higher (Stronger than before), higher with Power-ups and Rage Boost

Durability:​

The Dark Ages: High Universe level (Traded blows with Transformed Prince Ahzrak), higher with Power-ups and Rage Boost

2016: At least High Universe level, possibly higher (Stronger than before), higher with Power-ups and Rage Boost

Agree: DarkDragonMedeus, Firestorm808, Theglassman12

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

i know what you're talking about but could you at least put scans?

 

[Firestorm808]

i know what you're talking about but could you at least put scans?

Updated links.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Who am I looking at, Doomguy/slayer?

 

[Firestorm808]

Who am I looking at, Doomguy/slayer?

Yes.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Alright, just one question that is probably just a result of me missing past CRTs

Why is he rated Universal for attacking with a weapon that is High Universal Level in SS?

Otherwise, I guess this is fine (Apparently speed has it's own issues that will be tackled later via translations of DLC?)

 

[Firestorm808]

Alright, just one question that is probably just a result of me missing past CRTs

Why is he rated Universal for attacking with a weapon that is High Universal Level in SS?

Otherwise, I guess this is fine (Apparently speed has it's own issues that will be tackled later via translations of DLC?)

Sorry. That's a typo. It's all supposed to be high universal. Will correct.

 

[Theglassman12]

I'm not really sure how this is High Universal for something being "infinitely dense". He doesn't destroy an infinite sized realm with this weapon unless we're taking black holes or any singularities that are infinitely dense as High Uni now.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm not really sure how this is High Universal for something being "infinitely dense". He doesn't destroy an infinite sized realm with this weapon unless we're taking black holes or any singularities that are infinitely dense as High Uni now.

To clarify, do physical strikes using infinite mass amount to Infinite energy on a 3-D scale (High 3-A)?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I'm not really sure how this is High Universal for something being "infinitely dense". He doesn't destroy an infinite sized realm with this weapon unless we're taking black holes or any singularities that are infinitely dense as High Uni now.

The thing is it's infinitely dense but it's not an infinitely small singularity.

 

[Theglassman12]

@BestMGQScalerEver that doesn’t sound like it would apply to a weapon that came from a Cthulhu-like realm where water and gravity is distorted in different ways.

@Firestorm808 I don’t recall that ever being something we accept as flat out High 3-A. We don’t categorize singularities or black holes as an instant High 3-A due to either of them being able to become infinite in mass.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Is there any more proof of this High 3-A scaling by chance?

 

[Firestorm808]

@Firestorm808 I don’t recall that ever being something we accept as flat out High 3-A. We don’t categorize singularities or black holes as an instant High 3-A due to either of them being able to become infinite in mass.

To reiterate, I'm asking about the amount of energy exerted from a physical strike with infinite mass behind it. Is there precedent for what we classify it as?

 

[IDK3465]

@BestMGQScalerEver that doesn’t sound like it would apply to a weapon that came from a Cthulhu-like realm where water and gravity is distorted in different ways.

@Firestorm808 I don’t recall that ever being something we accept as flat out High 3-A. We don’t categorize singularities or black holes as an instant High 3-A due to either of them being able to become infinite in mass.

Black holes quite literally don’t have infinite mass, the only infinitely dense portion of a black hole is its singularity, an infinitesimally small point in space, hence why it’s still finite.

The Dreadmace however is infinitely dense across a non-infinitesimal volume, and thus would have infinite mass, simple as that.

I’ll leave it to the verse supporters to explain wether it’s an outlier or not

 

[JPTheGamer]

To reiterate, I'm asking about the amount of energy exerted from a physical strike with infinite mass behind it. Is there precedent for what we classify it as?

Not sure if that's enough to qualify as High 3-A. Something with infinite mass doesn't necessarily mean it automatically translates to infinite energy or power.

 

[Firestorm808]

Not sure if that's enough to qualify as High 3-A. Something with infinite mass doesn't necessarily mean it automatically translates to infinite energy or power.

It's a physical strike.

Kinetic Energy = 0.5 * Mass * Velocity^2 = 0.5 * Infinite Mass * (Non-Zero Velocity)^2 = Infinite Kinetic Energy

Force = Mass * Acceleration = Infinite Mass * Non-Zero Acceleration = Infinite Force

Work = Force * Distance = Infinite Force * Non-Zero Distance = Infinite Work or Infinite Joules

Universe level: "Any greater finite number is also included within this tier, whereas countably infinite numbers are included under High Universe level."

High 3-A: High Universe level​

"Characters or objects that demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale."

 

[IDK3465]

Not sure if that's enough to qualify as High 3-A. Something with infinite mass doesn't necessarily mean it automatically translates to infinite energy or power.

Normally, yes, but Doomguy here is using this thing as a weapon, as in swinging it around and junk. KE is literally 0.5 * mass * velocity^2, and if mass is infinite and velocity is measurable, KE is also infinite

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Firestorm808 I don’t recall that ever being something we accept as flat out High 3-A.

We absolutely do if its legit.

Characters or objects that demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, such as creating or destroying infinite mass or affecting an infinite 3-D space.

Swinging any infinite mass would constitute infinite amounts of energy.

What we should be asking is why should we take this at face value.

We don’t categorize singularities or black holes as an instant High 3-A due to either of them being able to become infinite in mass.

Now out of the reasons stated above a regular 3-dimensional character would get destroyed when approaching the singularity (the center of the black hole). The tidal forces would become infinite and he or she would be destroyed no matter how high his or her durability is. As such, since saying that a character's durability is infinite is usually an enormous outlier, surviving a singularity can extremely seldom be taken as a durability feat.

The actual reason we don't usually scale High 3-A from black holes, from our Black Hole Feats in Fiction page.

 

[JPTheGamer]

It's a physical strike.

Kinetic Energy = Mass * Velocity^2 = Infinite Mass * (Non-Zero Velocity)^2 = Infinite Kinetic Energy

Force = Mass * Acceleration = Infinite Mass * Non-Zero Acceleration = Infinite Force

Work = Force * Distance = Infinite Force * Non-Zero Distance = Infinite Work or Infinite Joules

Universe level: "Any greater finite number is also included within this tier, whereas countably infinite numbers are included under High Universe level."

Normally, yes, but Doomguy here is using this thing as a weapon, as in swinging it around and junk. KE is literally 0.5 * mass * velocity^2, and if mass is infinite and velocity is measurable, KE is also infinite

Then I suppose that's enough proof.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

So say you took a black hole and somehow strapped it to a hammer and had some kind of ability to protect you, and only you from all the effects. Would that hammer also have High 3-A AP? If I was to hit someone with it, would it be an infinite amount of force as well?

 

[Hellscream]

you can't have a more direct quote, of an object having infinite mass, it's directly referred to as being infinitely dense, while the mace itself has a set volume.
the mace itself is used as a melee weapon, and is the strongest melee weapon in game.
the eldritch weapons in general, are all powerful, with the chainshot being able to rip through reality itself so i don't see why we shouldn't take this at face value, just like we did with every other codex, and considering it's a power fantasy verse with ridiculous shit.
we have energy, that succeeds our theoretical limits of temperature, and now an infinitely dense mace, a sword that can corrupt all realm in DOOM (there's quite a lot of realms).

So yeah, i definetly agree with the thread.

 

[KLOL506]

@DontTalkDT

 

[Firestorm808]

@DarkDragonMedeus

Your input is appreciated as well.

 

[Hellscream]

Also for those curious, this is the dreadmace in the game.

Even the way the swing is animated showcases the mass behind it, and the shockwave that obliterates everything it touches.

Y'all also need to take into consideration that the cosmic realm is full of "impossible" things, and it gets perfectly showcased in it's weaponry and codexes.

 

[Firestorm808]

you can't have a more direct quote, of an object having infinite mass, it's directly referred to as being infinitely dense, while the mace itself has a set volume.
the mace itself is used as a melee weapon, and is the strongest melee weapon in game.
the eldritch weapons in general, are all powerful, with the chainshot being able to rip through reality itself so i don't see why we shouldn't take this at face value, just like we did with every other codex, and considering it's a power fantasy verse with ridiculous shit.
we have energy, that succeeds our theoretical limits of temperature, and now an infinitely dense mace, a sword that can corrupt all realm in DOOM (there's quite a lot of realms).

So yeah, i definetly agree with the thread.

Yeah, the Dreadmace does not feel out of place with everything else that is in the verse.

Keep in mind that the DOOM Slayer ends up uncountably stronger than the Dreadmace by the time he fights Davoth.

 

[Theglassman12]

@LephyrTheRevanchist the quote mentions destroying or creating infinite mass. Slayer isn’t doing either of these, he’s just swinging a weapon that’s already made that happens to be infinitely dense.

@Firestorm808 Does Doom tackle any ideas like higher infinities or no? Because that would be relevant on if the whole “infinitely dense” statement is consistent with the lore.

 

[Firestorm808]

@LephyrTheRevanchist the quote mentions destroying or creating infinite mass. Slayer isn’t doing either of these, he’s just swinging a weapon that’s already made that happens to be infinitely dense.

The full quote is:

"Characters or objects that demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, such as creating or destroying infinite mass or affecting an infinite 3-D space."

It's not limited to the creating/destroying examples, so long as it's an example of infinite 3-D energy.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Firestorm808 Does Doom tackle any ideas like higher infinities or no? Because that would be relevant on if the whole “infinitely dense” statement is consistent with the lore.

Are you asking if the DOOM power scale goes into Tier 2 and 1 territory? If so, then yes.

 

[IDK3465]

So say you took a black hole and somehow strapped it to a hammer and had some kind of ability to protect you, and only you from all the effects. Would that hammer also have High 3-A AP? If I was to hit someone with it, would it be an infinite amount of force as well?

No, because A: black holes don't have infinite mass, and B: physically moving a black hole is an antifeat for it being a real black hole

 

[Theglassman12]

No that’s not my question, does the doom series flat out describe or talk about realms or concepts of higher infinities in the lore itself or no?

 

[Hellscream]

No that’s not my question, does the doom series flat out describe or talk about realms or concepts of higher infinities in the lore itself or no?

?

How is that relevant

 

[Firestorm808]

No that’s not my question, does the doom series flat out describe or talk about realms or concepts of higher infinities in the lore itself or no?

I can't say I follow.

What does that have to do with whether the attack outputs infinite 3-D energy or not?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@LephyrTheRevanchist the quote mentions destroying or creating infinite mass. Slayer isn’t doing either of these, he’s just swinging a weapon that’s already made that happens to be infinitely dense.

Anyways, Firestorm is correct.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

No, because A: black holes don't have infinite mass, and B: physically moving a black hole is an antifeat for it being a real black hole

Then why were they brought up? Dreadmace is infinitely dense and if Black Holes aren't, that's not an anti-feat. I'll ignore B since that completely missed the context of the question, as if I knew it was an anti-feat I would've said in the initial post that if it also wasn't an anti feat (It was why I even said somehow attached to the hammer and that it wouldn't kill you)

 

[Theglassman12]

@Hellscream @Firestorm808 if things like higher infinities exist and are a part of the series then it makes the whole infinite density stuff not as much of an outlier to use for scaling given something like the dreaded mace would be dwarfed by something far higher in infinity.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

KE = 0.5 * m * v^2 formula where m = infinite would easily require High 3-A amounts of energy even if swung at a snail's pace. Likewise, even simply holding it requires fighting against infinite GPE.

But anyway, I agree with this thread.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Hellscream @Firestorm808 if things like higher infinities exist and are a part of the series then it makes the whole infinite density stuff not as much of an outlier to use for scaling given something like the dreaded mace would be dwarfed by something far higher in infinity.

We have uncountably infinite timelines. Does that count?

 

[Theglassman12]

Is that the matrix scan of constantly infinitely expansive timelines from the Makyr’s perspective or something? If so then I guess the dreaded mace stuff can work.

 

[IDK3465]

Then why were they brought up? Dreadmace is infinitely dense and if Black Holes aren't, that's not an anti-feat.

Don’t look at me man, ask Theglassman why he brought it up

I'll ignore B since that completely missed the context of the question, as if I knew it was an anti-feat I would've said in the initial post that if it also wasn't an anti feat (It was why I even said somehow attached to the hammer and that it wouldn't kill you)

Ok, thanks for clarifying, I just wanted to make sure you knew 90% of the time, a feat like this wouldn’t be useable, sorry if I came off rude at all

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Don’t look at me man, ask Theglassman why he brought it up

Ok, thanks for clarifying, I just wanted to make sure you knew 90% of the time, a feat like this wouldn’t be useable, sorry if I came off rude at all

Not a problem, it was just meant to see if the black hole thing held any weight (besides the obvious).
If it wouldn't be considered a High 3-A attack even strapped to a hammer and presuming that this isn't an anti-feat, then it doesn't matter since the Dreadmace weighs, well, infinitely more. That's my assumption, anyways.