- 287
- 191
Note: Due to the use of MTL, we are waiting for translations from the translation team to continue with the topic.
Before starting I want to clarify that I will only talk about the mentions of universal/infinite sizes in the light novel, based on the Japanese version
This is the previously accepted cosmology blog
vsbattles.fandom.com
Agree: Phoenks, DarkMatterEnergy254, BlackeJan, AsterReal
Neutral:
Disagree: TotalMasterInfinity
Before starting I want to clarify that I will only talk about the mentions of universal/infinite sizes in the light novel, based on the Japanese version
This is the previously accepted cosmology blog
High School DxD Cosmology Page
This page will cover the cosmology of High School DxD as well as general tiers for the size of each major location. This blog is made to help those who aren't as familiar with the series understand the scope of the verse and feats. What is canon to High School DxD? The light novels written by or...
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In the current blog we accept that the anime is a timeline, which is why we use images like the underworld as part of the DxD cosmology (We also use the Nintendo 3DS game even though we don't use video games without confirmation from the author, not to mention that the game is based on the anime rather than the novel individually).
The issue is that it is accepted because with the release of Born, the novel EX came out, where the timelines are discussed, among them it is said that the Chichigami did not appear, generating that they have no knowledge of other beings (Here they explain more on that subject).
But the problem with this is that the author resumed this idea, because for the release of HERO he mentioned that these events occurred, implying that the continuity of the anime the Chichigami did appear before the release of HERO, where events such as the fight with the Sitri clan and the Satan Ranger also occurred.
I want to point out that it seems that the author did want the anime to be a timeline (Or just It's a mention of a timeline in which these beings don't know), but with the release of HERO, he resumed (or just clarified) this so that the anime can follow its own timeline separate from the light novel. I mean, he himself even says that the events are different for both.
By this I mean that the anime's information on cosmology should apply only to its material, but not to the LN because the condition for it to be a timeline adapted to the original story is no longer met.
The issue is that it is accepted because with the release of Born, the novel EX came out, where the timelines are discussed, among them it is said that the Chichigami did not appear, generating that they have no knowledge of other beings (Here they explain more on that subject).
But the problem with this is that the author resumed this idea, because for the release of HERO he mentioned that these events occurred, implying that the continuity of the anime the Chichigami did appear before the release of HERO, where events such as the fight with the Sitri clan and the Satan Ranger also occurred.
I want to point out that it seems that the author did want the anime to be a timeline (Or just It's a mention of a timeline in which these beings don't know), but with the release of HERO, he resumed (or just clarified) this so that the anime can follow its own timeline separate from the light novel. I mean, he himself even says that the events are different for both.
By this I mean that the anime's information on cosmology should apply only to its material, but not to the LN because the condition for it to be a timeline adapted to the original story is no longer met.
It is currently accepted that Heaven is comparable to the universe and is of infinite size due to three statements, but let's start by debunking these "statements."
To begin with, the mention of Universal size comes from the physical version of Volume 11
However, in Japanese it says something completely different (Vol. 11, p. 186-187)
1.1 Size 4-A
The 4-A size comes from the mention that it can "contain" stars; however, as the novel itself portrays it, rather than containing stars, it is for SEEING the stars like a planetarium (Vol. 18, p. 138).
To begin with, the mention of Universal size comes from the physical version of Volume 11
However, in Japanese it says something completely different (Vol. 11, p. 186-187)
On the other hand, there is also another mention of the second heaven having an infinite size (endless darkness to be clear), however, in volume 18, page 141, an “infinite” size is never said or speculated upon
On the part of the third heaven and the immeasurable size (that is, it cannot be measured) it is fine, but it does not qualify for something of infinite size unfortunately
1.1 Size 4-A
The 4-A size comes from the mention that it can "contain" stars; however, as the novel itself portrays it, rather than containing stars, it is for SEEING the stars like a planetarium (Vol. 18, p. 138).
The way Issei talks about the second heaven indicates that it's more like a planetarium, that is, a place where you can see projections of stars, planets, and celestial bodies. If that had been the author's intention, he would have said "Apparently, the Second Heaven has its own stars," but since the work itself says that there is more advanced technology than that of the human world, I consider it to be an advanced place where the stars of the universe itself can be seen from the sky.
Originally, it is said that the Underworld has no sun or moon of its own, so the Maou created an artificial moon. According to Issei himself, it is not real, so it does not qualify for our standards.
Note: On the cosmology page, it is said that there is a sun. However, this mention comes from Volume 0, which is a prequel and is precisely before Sirzechs, Serafall, Ajuka, and Falbium became the Demon Lords. So, I will consider it some kind of error since there is no mention of a sun in the volumes after DxD Hero (Year in which volume 0 was published) and Volume 5.
Japanese (vol.5, p. 56-57):
If we read the Japanese version, the novel states that the underworld is the same size as the human realm, which in fact uses the kanji 地球 which literally means planet Earth, so if we take this the way it portrays the underworld on its own is planetary sized.
(Vol. 5, p. 44)
There are said to be two mentions of infinite size for the underworld, but let's start with the first one.
This originates from Ishibumi's first novel, DENPACHI, where the protagonist Mitsuya Kanzaki says
But there is a problem, to begin with, according to readers and the synopsis of the novel, DENPANCHI is never set in hell, in fact the protagonist's expression refers to a hell they are living (something that highlights the previous context where everyone is tired and hurt after their "endless" fights) so it doesn't even refer to the hell of DxD
Another point that must be noted is that Ishibumi himself said on 3 occasions that DENPACHI is not canon for DxD
So even if the mention was completely about Hell, it's not even part of DxD canon.
The author in the epilogue of volume 25 said that the Mitzuya of DENPANCHI and that of DxD is like a star system, which in Japanese we can see that he uses it to refer to a literary concept that recycles characters from other stories to use them in others, not necessarily sharing the worldview
The second mention is related to what was previously said to be the size of the human world (Earth) since in Shin High School DxD 4 (p. 115) it says this:
But there is a problem, and that is that this is supposed to be a space under the Gremory territory, even in its presentation they only call it a vast space nothing more /Vol. 10/
But the problem arises when we learn that the Gremory Territory is the same size as Japan (Better said the size of Honshu) /Vol. 5/.
With what was shown, instead of being a space that is truly infinite, only Ishibumi decided to use that word to emphasize the size of the space, since it would contradict what was previously stated.
Note: On the cosmology page, it is said that there is a sun. However, this mention comes from Volume 0, which is a prequel and is precisely before Sirzechs, Serafall, Ajuka, and Falbium became the Demon Lords. So, I will consider it some kind of error since there is no mention of a sun in the volumes after DxD Hero (Year in which volume 0 was published) and Volume 5.
Japanese (vol.5, p. 56-57):
What's more, the underworld has "stars" but that only appears in the anime and manga version (Only in this chapter, because when they focus on the moon well... there isn't :V) in the anime you see a starry sky, but as I said before, the anime doesn't meet the requirements to be an NL timeline, so we can't use its cosmology (which is why we use it on the blog).
If we read the Japanese version, the novel states that the underworld is the same size as the human realm, which in fact uses the kanji 地球 which literally means planet Earth, so if we take this the way it portrays the underworld on its own is planetary sized.
(Vol. 5, p. 44)
1.1 Infnite Size
There are said to be two mentions of infinite size for the underworld, but let's start with the first one.
This originates from Ishibumi's first novel, DENPACHI, where the protagonist Mitsuya Kanzaki says
Where he uses the word Mugen (無限) which literally means infinity
But there is a problem, to begin with, according to readers and the synopsis of the novel, DENPANCHI is never set in hell, in fact the protagonist's expression refers to a hell they are living (something that highlights the previous context where everyone is tired and hurt after their "endless" fights) so it doesn't even refer to the hell of DxD
Another point that must be noted is that Ishibumi himself said on 3 occasions that DENPACHI is not canon for DxD
So even if the mention was completely about Hell, it's not even part of DxD canon.
The author in the epilogue of volume 25 said that the Mitzuya of DENPANCHI and that of DxD is like a star system, which in Japanese we can see that he uses it to refer to a literary concept that recycles characters from other stories to use them in others, not necessarily sharing the worldview
The second mention is related to what was previously said to be the size of the human world (Earth) since in Shin High School DxD 4 (p. 115) it says this:
Where the Kanji used is 果てしなく which means “endless” or “infinite”
But there is a problem, and that is that this is supposed to be a space under the Gremory territory, even in its presentation they only call it a vast space nothing more /Vol. 10/
But the problem arises when we learn that the Gremory Territory is the same size as Japan (Better said the size of Honshu) /Vol. 5/.
With what was shown, instead of being a space that is truly infinite, only Ishibumi decided to use that word to emphasize the size of the space, since it would contradict what was previously stated.
There are 2 mentions that are used to refer to the fact that the planet Earth is of infinite size
To begin with, according to Azazel himself, Sairaorg's Touki is so dense that it can be seen
Under this concept, assuming there is an unlimited amount of Touki on Earth, then it would have infinite Mass, right?
Well, that's wrong. While the word unlimited is synonymous with Infinite, that only occurs if the word used is Mugen (無限). But not in the case of this scene (Vol. Shin 2, p. 238)
The other argument that is used is the training room that was given to Issei, however as I mentioned in the underworld point above, this does not qualify as infinite since it has limits given by the novel
To begin with, according to Azazel himself, Sairaorg's Touki is so dense that it can be seen
Under this concept, assuming there is an unlimited amount of Touki on Earth, then it would have infinite Mass, right?
Well, that's wrong. While the word unlimited is synonymous with Infinite, that only occurs if the word used is Mugen (無限). But not in the case of this scene (Vol. Shin 2, p. 238)
The word used is "mujinzou" (無尽蔵), which doesn't mean infinite like Mugen does. On the contrary, it implies something inexhaustible. That is, no matter how much you take, it won't run out. Which honestly doesn't qualify as infinite in itself. One use of the word is like no matter how much water you extract from the ocean, it seems as if it won't run out. In short, rather than meaning something infinite literally, it's figuratively (Here I spoke with one of our translators on the subject.)
The other argument that is used is the training room that was given to Issei, however as I mentioned in the underworld point above, this does not qualify as infinite since it has limits given by the novel
It is said that the human world (⼈間界) is not Earth because it does not use the kanji [地球]. But if you were attentive, this is wrong, because in the hell section they practically call the human world Earth using the kanji [地球], and in Shin High School DxD 4 they call the human world Earth (Vol. Shin 4, p. 416-418)
(...)
Furthermore, on the cosmology page, a 3-A size is currently accepted because the kanji used in volume 11 to refer to worlds is 異世界, which also means "parallel universe." As support, they use the mention of Cao Cao as universal ruler, but there things change, because in the original text such a thing is not said, on the contrary, it does not exist. So using this argument is not valid.
What is certain is that the Norse world has its own sun, however, as I showed in the section on the human realm and hell, when referring to the human realm they are referring to planet Earth thanks to the fact that the comparison uses [地球] which means planet Earth and the evidence in the section on the human world, so in this context, we can safely say that the realms are of planetary size and that when the word “world” is mentioned it is only the place where they live, but not its surroundings like the sun of Asgard.
Finally, we have the dimensional gap. There are a total of three mentions that put it as infinite in size. Let's start with the easiest to disprove.
- Isolation Barrier
It is said that the isolation barrier is located within the dimensional gap and is the size of endless darkness. However, this again occurs in the American version, but not in the original version, which states the following (Vol. 21, p. 286):
- ""BOUNDLESS""
The mention of boundless comes from the physical English version.
In Japanese it says nothing about something of endless size (Vol. 6, p. 184-185)
-The Nothing is infinite
This comes from a… questionable interpretation, since they use the mention already shown above that Ophis was born in the dimensional gap or also known as the world of nothingness, that is why when it is said that she was born from the nothingness of infinity, well the logic is nothing = infinity
(Vol. 11, p. 94)
(Vol. 11, p. 104)
The problem with this interpretation is that it's confusing the concept from which Ophis was born with the place where Ophis was born.
To say that Ophis was born from the concept of infinite nothingness, and that for this reason the dimensional gap is infinite, is the same logic as saying that there is a dimension where the illusions of dreams are because Great Red was born from that concept.
I think my point is pretty clear.
Since we only have information about the anime itself, neither distance, direction, the laws of physics, space, nor time exist. I think we can summarize it as having characteristics of Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 1; Aspects Type 2 [Concepts]) and Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 1)
(Of course this is only for the anime because as I indicated they should no longer share the same cosmology as the LN, which would only be a space between dimensions)
- Isolation Barrier
It is said that the isolation barrier is located within the dimensional gap and is the size of endless darkness. However, this again occurs in the American version, but not in the original version, which states the following (Vol. 21, p. 286):
As you can see, it only says that there is darkness, not infinite darkness, so it does not qualify for a Tall 3-A size.
- ""BOUNDLESS""
The mention of boundless comes from the physical English version.
In Japanese it says nothing about something of endless size (Vol. 6, p. 184-185)
So that mention of nothing being infinite, then, is of no use.
-The Nothing is infinite
This comes from a… questionable interpretation, since they use the mention already shown above that Ophis was born in the dimensional gap or also known as the world of nothingness, that is why when it is said that she was born from the nothingness of infinity, well the logic is nothing = infinity
(Vol. 11, p. 94)
But there's a BIG problem with this reasoning, and that is that the word used is (生じた), which means to emerge or be produced. In this context, it's not referring to the world of nothingness, because it later mentions the same world using other words. Rather, it refers to the concept from which Ophis was born, not the world. Something that is later confirmed in the same novel.
(Vol. 11, p. 104)
As you can see, Ophis represents infinity and nothingness, while Great Red represents the illusions of dreams. What's the problem with this interpretation?
The problem with this interpretation is that it's confusing the concept from which Ophis was born with the place where Ophis was born.
To say that Ophis was born from the concept of infinite nothingness, and that for this reason the dimensional gap is infinite, is the same logic as saying that there is a dimension where the illusions of dreams are because Great Red was born from that concept.
I think my point is pretty clear.
Since we only have information about the anime itself, neither distance, direction, the laws of physics, space, nor time exist. I think we can summarize it as having characteristics of Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 1; Aspects Type 2 [Concepts]) and Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 1)
(Of course this is only for the anime because as I indicated they should no longer share the same cosmology as the LN, which would only be a space between dimensions)
Currently on the cosmology page we have that DxD, ExE and FxF are parallel universes due to these mentions of High School DxD EX. But let's see what it says in Japanese.
Note: I will only focus on the word used in the translated parts, because they are the only ones in the English version where they are called parallel universes.
First:
Note: I will only focus on the word used in the translated parts, because they are the only ones in the English version where they are called parallel universes.
First:
Second:
Third:
Fourth:
Fifth:
Sixth:
As you can see, the word used is 異世界 which means between another world, different dimension and parallel universe, but since there is no other proof that indicates the size of these 3 worlds, it would be best to take them as different dimensions.
What I mean is that the novel for the mythological worlds does not take them as universes or of infinite size, it is more constantly compared with the planet Earth without including its celestial bodies (More with the underworld taking into account that originally it never had a sun or moon around it) so under this context the worlds should not qualify as 2-C, so the current value for Issei AxA, Great Red, Ophis and Trihexa (666) should stop qualifying as 2-C
Agree: Phoenks, DarkMatterEnergy254, BlackeJan, AsterReal
Neutral:
Disagree: TotalMasterInfinity
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