Naruto War Arc intelligence adjustments

[Syncornize]

Hi, I'm here to fix the current intelligence ratings for Naruto Pre-War Arc (Pre-WA) and Naruto War Arc (WA).


The feats listed in my old thread under the "Kid Naruto" key should be removed, as they belong to a different key, It would be enough to simply add something like “same as before” or similar in those sections. That said, I also have some alternative proposals for replacing the current WA intelligence description.

Spoiler: RASENSHURIKEN PROBLEM

I believe the Rasenshuriken feat in the Pre-WA key has several issues.

• Naruto heavily relies on accelerated development through his Shadow Clones. As Kakashi clearly states, the training idea was entirely his own and the learning time is drastically reduced by using approximately 200 clones over multiple hours over several days. Naruto’s training is equivalent to X time of uninterrupted and hyper-focused training on a single task completely different from conventional training. ( Naruto trains during the Kakuzu and Hidan "capture arc", pushing himself to the point of exhaustion multiple times. The training period can reasonably be estimated to have lasted around a week )
  
  
• The argument that Minato was unable to add nature transformation is vague, perhaps even too vague. There is no indication that Minato devoted a fixed amount of time exclusively to combining a nature with the Rasengan. Kakashi, once he created the Chidori, most likely abandoned the idea altogether and focused on perfecting that new technique, which had originated from his failed attempt to add the lightning style to the rasengan.

The estimated “training time” being used here lacks any real argoment, it’s pure speculation… meaning the feat doesn’t hold up well. The feat has no merit worthy of being listed. The method was not his idea, and the result is due to a hax.

​

Example :​

“Minato spent 3 years trying to learn the Rasengan.”

In total, we’re talking about months or years of training.

Assuming Minato trained 5 hours a day, every day for 3 years, that adds up to 36.5 months of total training.
Now take Naruto using 200 shadow clones training for 5 hours per day, over 3 days, he would gain the equivalent of 1,000 hours of experience in 1 day.
Extended over 3 days, that totals 3,000 hours, or 20 months of training.
To achieve the same result as Minato while maintaining the same level of consistency, Naruto would only need a little over 13 days.
In conclusion (Let’s not forget that the premise in the example is completely unrealistic.) Naruto achieved the equivalent of 3 years (or 1,095 consecutive days) of training in just 16 days.

Considering that Minato’s training likely followed a standard and consistent pace that involved multiple skills, not just a single specific technique, and adding the fact that we don’t even know whether Minato continued to pursue the idea or eventually abandoned it ,the outcome doesn’t seem to have any reasonable connection to Naruto’s skills.

Spoiler: Naruto general intelligence"

Naruto continues to develop his creativity and adaptability by applying them to the use and evolution of the Rasengan, creating new variations that make the technique more versatile. He increases its power (the Planetary Rasengan causes damage so severe that even an Edo Tensei has difficulty regenerating), extends its range, and alters its shape and size for more precise or large-scale attacks. He also develops techniques capable of confronting multiple enemies, not only by building on existing Rasengan variants and combining them with other jutsu, but also by incorporating the use of chakra arms,first used after his training with B. These chakra arms allow him to stabilize the Rasengan and control its direction at will.

He demonstrated the ability to quickly analyze situations and deduce weaknesses in real time, such as when he figured out how to bypass the Fourth Raikage’s Lightning Release enhanced durability. Naruto observed that the Raikage had previously injured himself and correctly deduced the cause of his scar based on the Eight-Tails' account. Realizing that the Raikage’s embarrassment over the incident was unfounded, Naruto analyzed the entire dynamic and concluded that the only way to injure him was to use his own momentum and strength against him.


Naruto has learned to control Kurama's chakra, managing to manipulate it with incredible efficiency and adapt it to every single shinobi of the Allied Shinobi Forces in a very short time. Kurama compares Naruto's feat to Shiki Fūjin. Not even perfect Jinchūriki like Killer B, who had years of perfect synchronization with their Tailed Beasts, were capable of such a feat. Kurama even notes that Naruto's control over his chakra far surpasses that of his previous Jinchūriki, including Kushina, a member of the Uzumaki clan, and a prodigy like Minato.

Naruto also managed to come up with a better idea than both Tobirama and Minato to evade an impending attack by Obito. Applying the same principle behind the chakra distribution of the Kage Bunshin no Jutsu, he linked his own chakra, along with Kurama's, to those who had previously received it. This created a link between the Allied Shinobi Forces and Minato, allowing them to be marked by the Hiraishin no Jutsu. Inspired by Minato's earlier observation, Naruto realized that by connecting his chakra to Minato's, he could also allow others to be teleported.

Spoiler: Naruto combat intelligence

Naruto is a formidable ninja. Even though he doesn't possess all the qualities of a typical Jonin, thanks to his immense creativity and incredible adaptability and reactivity, he is able to find ways to deceive, defeat, or anticipate his opponents methods that can even surpass Kage level combatants (Kage are usually the strongest ninja in their respective nations).

Naruto was able to quickly develop a countermeasure in a battle against two ninja by delaying his clone’s intervention to block the slash of the second opponent at the right angle, while the original Naruto was engaging the first. (pre-War Arc)

After missing Lord Mū, before he could complete his technique, Naruto used Gaara’s sand as a springboard and propelled himself upward with a chakra arm to land a second frontal blow, temporarily rendering Mū incapacitated.

Naruto throws a Rasenshuriken mid-air, guiding it with a chakra arm. Knowing that the Raikage is extremely fast due to his Lightning Release, after the Third Raikage dodges, Naruto redirects the Rasenshuriken behind him. When the Raikage surprisingly evades again, Naruto, having just landed, immediately retrieves the Rasenshuriken and launches it at point-blank range, adapting his initial strategy on the spot.

His abilities allow him to continuously create new techniques mid-battle, confirming his speed in crafting countermeasures in creative ways. One example is the Ōdama Rasen Tairengan, in which he uses clones wielding Rasengan to halt the advance of large-scale and destructive attacks, like one of Hashirama's techniques. His talents are frequently acknowledged by high-level ninja, including Madara Uchiha and Tobirama among the strongest in ninja history.

Naruto used Kurama's chakra to save the Allied Shinobi Forces from the attacks of Obito and Madara. He was able to block a series of projectile barrages from them, deflecting each shot before it could hit his comrades. He accurately tracked the trajectory of every projectile and the position of his allies, using this awareness to block multiple attacks simultaneously

Naruto and Sasuke consistently coordinate in battle without needing to communicate, able to account for each other's fighting styles and techniques despite the short time they’ve spent working together. Tobirama states that this level of cohesion is difficult to achieve even for experienced and well-synchronized teams.

Naruto is also capable of immediately coordinating with allies he's never fought with before, such as Tobirama, by instantly adapting to their combat style. Tobirama himself states that Naruto's level of coordination is comparable to that which he shared with his own brother.

He deceived and disoriented Kaguya with the Sexy Reverse Harem Technique, managing to land a hit on her.

Thanks to his unorthodox and outside-the-box thinking, Naruto’s tactics in battle are highly unpredictable a trait repeatedly acknowledged by Kakashi. This could also be classified as limited resistance to analytical prediction, given that the core idea is that Naruto, by not following predictable patterns, makes it unlikely for others to foresee what he'll do in certain situations.

Naruto managed to deceive Kaguya multiple times using clones. The first time, he forced her to open a portal, then had a clone with a high amount of chakra follow her, deceiving both Kaguya and Zetsu into thinking it was the real Naruto. Once she eliminated the clone, she opened another portal, giving Obito the opportunity to connect to the other dimensions and locate Sasuke.

By focusing all his clones’ attention on protecting a single one and giving it the TSO, Naruto convinced Zetsu and Kaguya that the clone was the real him.

Naruto anticipated Kaguya's next move, knowing she would target him. He sent a clone in his place while he disguised himself as Sasuke, who remained hidden and supported by Naruto’s clones from a distance. By taking Sasuke’s appearance, he tricked Kaguya into believing Naruto was Sasuke. Sasuke then swapped places with Naruto's clone to continue the strategy

My conclusion, considering his multitasking feats and the upscaling sometimes significant against characters recognized and accepted as actual ninja geniuses on the wiki, would be to propose "AT LEAST GENIUS" for both categories. 'Extraordinary Genius' seems excessive for either section, but I'll leave the final word to you all.

My main intention is to include the WA feats, without calculating their rating, keeping the current evaluation as it is, without any upgrade or downgrade. However, I would also like to add resistance to analytical prediction and remove the Rasenshuriken feat.

 

[Kaydee1648]

His current intelligence rating perfectly justifies all these btw. All i see are better worded explanations.

 

[Syncornize]

His current intelligence rating perfectly justifies all these btw. All i see are better worded explanations.

In the cases I used in the other thread, it reaches a certain level with a minimal base. In this case, it does upscaling on ninja genius of a different level, where it's stated to be better. There are feats of superior adaptations, multitasking, and analysis. That's why I asked for a slight upgrade. These feats are clearly superior.
Outplaying the regional champion and the intercontinental champion are 2 different things.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Naruto's general intelligence requires a downgrade thread. Or at least change in the justifications used. (a lot of other characters too for that matter)

 

[Qawsedf234]

For intelligence

Genius: Individuals with an exceptional capacity for knowledge and intelligence, usually in one area of varying depth. This level of intellect is the level of real-world geniuses, polymaths, and genuinely extremely prominent intellectuals, and, in the absence of better feats, should be the default intelligence category for fictional characters with exceptional or superhuman intelligence.

Extraordinary Genius: Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science and who vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits. At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, outperforming supercomputers,[Note 1] and even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations. This is where super scientists of exceptional scientific knowledge begin to appear.

Now Ninja Magic isn't a 1:1 transferable skill with other IRL stuff like military tactics or mechanical engineering are.

Having said that, we can probably do a gradient. In other words if you consider Chakra Control as a scientific field, then you can be rated as a Genius for being highly knowledgeable in a single area or really knowledgeable in multiple areas. Extraordinary Genius involves being a Genius or Superhuman in Knowledgeable in multiple fields and/or having thinking power better than computers.

Having said that, it is a bit iffy that Naruto is an EG with Chakra control, when a Genius can be sufficient for that singular field. But if people want to argue that aspects are sufficiently different to make them different fields, I could see it being kept.

Anyways, for now I can agree with the OP.

 

[Syncornize]

For intelligence


Now Ninja Magic isn't a 1:1 transferable skill with other IRL stuff like military tactics or mechanical engineering are.

Having said that, we can probably do a gradient. In other words if you consider Chakra Control as a scientific field, then you can be rated as a Genius for being highly knowledgeable in a single area or really knowledgeable in multiple areas. Extraordinary Genius involves being a Genius or Superhuman in Knowledgeable in multiple fields and/or having thinking power better than computers.

Having said that, it is a bit iffy that Naruto is an EG with Chakra control, when a Genius can be sufficient for that singular field. But if people want to argue that aspects are sufficiently different to make them different fields, I could see it being kept.

Anyways, for now I can agree with the OP.

Yes, regarding EG I was referring at most only to that specific field, but I hadn’t updated the sandbox. Thanks for the input

 

[Syncornize]

Naruto's general intelligence requires a downgrade thread. Or at least change in the justifications used. (a lot of other characters too for that matter)

I don’t understand what you mean or the reason behind it. The feats are generally consistent. Some are of the same type as in his kid key, but simply on a higher level. Some of the BIQ feats are examples of 'general' intelligence applied to combat, such as being able to analyze situations and find even simpler solutions. Intelligence is not like AP or speed; conventional anti-feats don’t really exist.

(I may have given you the wrong answer. The message is quite generic, so I may have misunderstood what you meant.)

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

The argument that Minato was unable to add nature transformation is vague, perhaps even too vague. There is no indication that Minato devoted a fixed amount of time exclusively to combining a nature with the Rasengan. Kakashi, once he created the Chidori, most likely abandoned the idea altogether and focused on perfecting that new technique, which had originated from his failed attempt to add the lightning style to the rasengan.

The Chidori is the result of Kakashi giving up entirely on adding a chakra nature to the Rasengan and creating his own Jutsu instead. The Chidori wasn’t a result of a practical failure at the moment of trying to change de Chakra Nature of the Rasengan.

This also gives a time stamp on how long had Minato been sitting on the original Rasengan, as Kakashi had the Chidori already by the time of the Third* War. Also, Minato “not dedicating a fixed amount of time to completing the Rasengan” seems BS. The Rasengan was never complete in Minato’s eyes, as the Chage of Nature was always the final step. And if his one-shot shows something, is that he was nothing short of committed to complete it since it was made out of his desire protect Kushina.

Edit: It was the Third War.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Still kinda bs that it seemed practically complete after a single training session

 

[Syncornize]

The Chidori is the result of Kakashi giving up entirely on adding a chakra nature to the Rasengan and creating his own Jutsu instead. The Chidori wasn’t a result of a practical failure at the moment of trying to change de Chakra Nature of the Rasengan.

In reality, the Chidori can be defined as a failure. Kakashi wanted to add an element to the technique, not create a new, totally different one. Kakashi himself explains that the Rasengan is different from the Chidori and that his attempt was unsuccessful, as he was unable to add his own nature to the technique.

This also gives a time stamp on how long had Minato been sitting on the original Rasengan, as Kakashi had the Chidori already by the time of the Third* War. Also, Minato “not dedicating a fixed amount of time to completing the Rasengan” seems BS. The Rasengan was never complete in Minato’s eyes, as the Chage of Nature was always the final step. And if his one-shot shows something, is that he was nothing short of committed to complete it since it was made out of his desire protect Kushina.

the fact that Kakashi is attempting it in no way implies that Minato is doing the same. As I specified, only conjectures can be made based on uncertain grounds. Minato could have simply said it without ever attempting the feat again.
The point about 'concentrated time' is meant to introduce the idea that, even assuming a time factor, the feat would still not be valid and any estimate would remain vague.

 

[HelloThere1089]

I don’t understand what you mean or the reason behind it.

Let me explain then. Intelligence sections of shonen characters usually have issues. First let's go through this page:

Intelligence

Intelligence is a word that is incredibly difficult to define, as it has been used to refer to many things, such as one's ability to process information, or their capacity for logic, self-awareness, creativity, reasoning, and/or problem solving, or their knowledge and memory. In its fullest...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Unlike general intelligence, combat skill is not ranked on a scale with labels like "Genius" or "Supergenius." Due to the many factors involved, a simple rating system would fail to accurately capture a character's combat proficiency.

To avoid this confusion and better represent a character's abilities, we omit such ratings.

Instead, if a character profile includes a section on combat skill, it should only feature specific feats or statements that demonstrate their proficiency.

What this means is that combat intelligence doesn't contribute to an intelligence rating. Nor does it get a separate rating.

But if you still want combat intelligence to count for general intelligence, there is still not enough for it to reach genius.

Gifted: Characters who demonstrate high reasoning ability, can master difficult concepts with few repetitions, and display high performance capability or notable mastery in intellectual or specific academic fields, which makes them equivalent to real-world experts in these areas.

Genius: Individuals with an exceptional capacity for knowledge and intelligence, usually in one area of varying depth. This level of intellect is the level of real-world geniuses, polymaths, and genuinely extremely prominent intellectuals, and, in the absence of better feats, should be the default intelligence category for fictional characters with exceptional or superhuman intelligence.

Now let's look at Naruto's justifications:

1. Exceptional learning ability: This is just gifted. He learned something quickly that only experts in the field can perform.
2. Created sexy jutsu: This is just the transformation jutsu. He didn't really create anything new
3. Creative use of jutsu: This cannot be scaled to real world geniuses.
4. Managed to learn the rasengan in a week which took minato years to make: The time it took minato to invent something says nothing about how long it should take one to master it. Many scientists devote their entire lives in researches and make theories that you and I can learn in a matter of months or weeks.
5. Managed to learn rasenshuriken very quickly: This is entirely a feat of Kakashi because he came up with the training method for rasengan. Naruto learned it quickly because he used supernatural powers to cut that time short. That's not intelligence.
6. Managed to add elemental nature: Can't really be scaled to real world geniuses. Also he used his shadow clones to do it.
7. Did stuff that in-universe geniuses couldn't do: This is a bit weird and honestly the closest to a decent justification for genius. But ultimately this fails due to a few things. Intelligence isn't scaled like how AP is. If you can damage a planetary being then you are planetary. But if you do something a genius couldn't then it doesn't mean you qualify for a genius rating unless what you did can be scaled to real world geniuses. And at the end of the day, this is also Combat intelligence, so wouldn't count.

Basically most of Naruto's feats can be boiled down to exceptional learning ability and creative use. Both of which according to how the wiki defines it, gifted. Not to mention all of these are BIQ related. So they shouldn't even be in the general intelligence section. Let me know if I missed something.

Edit: This is excluding the "chakra understanding and manipulation". That seems fine for now.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Tbh if I weren't so busy irl, I would make a verse-wide (or multiple verses) intelligence revision.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

That seems like it would need to be a wiki wide revision as 90% of the profiles define combat intelligence in this way.

 

[HelloThere1089]

That seems like it would need to be a wiki wide revision as 90% of the profiles define combat intelligence in this way.

Please do it

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Please do it

Hell no, I wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole

 

[HelloThere1089]

Ideally, Naruto should be gifted normally, X with chakra control and manipulation.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

In reality, the Chidori can be defined as a failure. Kakashi wanted to add an element to the technique, not create a new, totally different one. Kakashi himself explains that the Rasengan is different from the Chidori and that his attempt was unsuccessful, as he was unable to add his own nature to the technique.

In none of those scans Kakashi says that the Chidori is the result of practical failure at the moment of trying to add a Chakra Nature to the Rasengan, just that he failed at adding a Chakra Nature to the Rasengan. He himself says that he had to invent the Chidori because he was unable to combine the Change in Shape of the Rasengan with a Chakra Nature right between the missing pages of the scans you show.

the fact that Kakashi is attempting it in no way implies that Minato is doing the same.

But that’s not what I said, I said that Kakashi having the Chidori by the Third War means that Minato had years without being able to complete the Rasengan up to his death.

Minato could have simply said it without ever attempting the feat again.

Minato ”simply saying it and never trying again” seems to be the one conjecture here considering it’s explicitly stated that it was always his intention.

 

[Syncornize]

Let me explain then. Intelligence sections of shonen characters usually have issues. First let's go through this page:

Intelligence

Intelligence is a word that is incredibly difficult to define, as it has been used to refer to many things, such as one's ability to process information, or their capacity for logic, self-awareness, creativity, reasoning, and/or problem solving, or their knowledge and memory. In its fullest...

vsbattles.fandom.com

What this means is that combat intelligence doesn't contribute to an intelligence rating. Nor does it get a separate rating.

But if you still want combat intelligence to count for general intelligence, there is still not enough for it to reach genius.

think you didn’t quite understand how intelligence and its evaluation work.

The page you linked doesn’t say that combat feats don’t and can’t be scaled. It says that BIQ on its own isn’t a standalone requirement like EG, which encompasses many more things, so as not to have separate “rankings” on its own. BIQ is still a type of intelligence in combat you apply various forms of reasoning. I simply separated them so it wouldn’t all be lumped into one single thing.

1. Exceptional learning ability: This is just gifted. He learned something quickly that only experts in the field can perform.
2. Created sexy jutsu: This is just the transformation jutsu. He didn't really create anything new
3. Creative use of jutsu: This cannot be scaled to real world geniuses.

Normal learning ability doesn’t have a high value, but it depends on the scale you use. If you compare it at a 1:4 ratio to a genius, you’re certainly not in the human range anymore.

Tiers like EG are based on inventing objects, and among the most renowned geniuses in real life there are artists or inventors like Leonardo da Vinci, creativity is an excellent part of intelligence. I don’t understand why you treat every feat I listed as if it stands alone. The description you yourself linked doesn’t say you must be able to do everything at X level, it’s enough if you can do many things well. The creative use of certain things is creative intelligence, which is evaluated, especially if it’s on a scale above or equal to that of a genius. According to your reasoning, having a high capacity for reasoning would remain Gifted regardless of the scale at which you apply it. Just because it’s the only tier that mentions it doesn’t mean that’s its only relevant tier.

1. Managed to learn the rasengan in a week which took minato years to make: The time it took minato to invent something says nothing about how long it should take one to master it. Many scientists devote their entire lives in researches and make theories that you and I can learn in a matter of months or weeks.

Reasoning is impartial, because in that time frame you will have a general, not perfect, knowledge or application of the concept , something that takes a scientist time and knowledge to achieve. Also, the context is completely different: the functioning of the Bijūdama was already known, but as is stated, replicating it is extremely difficult. It requires an extremely high level of mastery that’s considered difficult even for other characters accepted as geniuses, and impossible for most people experienced in that field. Once again, it depends on the scale on which the feat is performed.

1. Managed to learn rasenshuriken very quickly: This is entirely a feat of Kakashi because he came up with the training method for rasengan. Naruto learned it quickly because he used supernatural powers to cut that time short. That's not intelligence.

On this point I disagreed, it’s the first point in my thread…
You have to contextualize the level of difficulty of the thing. “Genius” doesn’t refer only to things possible in real life.

1. Did stuff that in-universe geniuses couldn't do: This is a bit weird and honestly the closest to a decent justification for genius. But ultimately this fails due to a few things. Intelligence isn't scaled like how AP is. If you can damage a planetary being then you are planetary. But if you do something a genius couldn't then it doesn't mean you qualify for a genius rating unless what you did can be scaled to real world geniuses. And at the end of the day, this is also Combat intelligence, so wouldn't count.

The examples used for upscaling concern the individual or the same fields. If you rival Einstein in physics, that means you’re at his level. I’ve never used intelligence as conventional scaling

 

[Syncornize]

In none of those scans Kakashi says that the Chidori is the result of practical failure at the moment of trying to add a Chakra Nature to the Rasengan, just that he failed at adding a Chakra Nature to the Rasengan. He himself says that he had to invent the Chidori because he was unable to combine the Change in Shape of the Rasengan with a Chakra Nature right between the missing pages of the scans you show.

But that’s not what I said, I said that Kakashi having the Chidori by the Third War means that Minato had years without being able to complete the Rasengan up to his death.

Minato ”simply saying it and never trying again” seems to be the one conjecture here considering it’s explicitly stated that it was always his intention.

Kakashi literally says that he failed, and that the Chidori was born from the attempt to add a nature to the Rasengan it is, in every respect, a technique born from a failed attempt.

True, but the intention differs from the action; we don’t know how much or for how long he tried to apply it. The gap created by the hax still remains far too large

 

[Golden_Void]

Now let's look at Naruto's justifications:

Bro cooked

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

For intelligence


Now Ninja Magic isn't a 1:1 transferable skill with other IRL stuff like military tactics or mechanical engineering are.

Having said that, we can probably do a gradient. In other words if you consider Chakra Control as a scientific field, then you can be rated as a Genius for being highly knowledgeable in a single area or really knowledgeable in multiple areas. Extraordinary Genius involves being a Genius or Superhuman in Knowledgeable in multiple fields and/or having thinking power better than computers.

Having said that, it is a bit iffy that Naruto is an EG with Chakra control, when a Genius can be sufficient for that singular field. But if people want to argue that aspects are sufficiently different to make them different fields, I could see it being kept.

Anyways, for now I can agree with the OP.

The reason Naruto is an EG is not strictly because of his chakra control but the sate of mind he gained due to So6P. This databook entry states that those who reach So6P have gained a deep understanding of all principles of all creation, this is exemplified by his use of TSO and more importantly him creating an eye for kakashi out of scratch. Demonstrating that he has an immense knowledge in fields of physics, chemistry, biology and applied science, this feat even surprised Sakura who is smarter than Sasuke another genius by miles

 

[Ezaru]

The reason Naruto is an EG is not strictly because of his chakra control but the sate of mind he gained due to So6P. This databook entry states that those who reach So6P have gained a deep understanding of all principles of all creation, this is exemplified by his use of TSO and more importantly him creating an eye for kakashi out of scratch. Demonstrating that he has an immense knowledge in fields of physics, chemistry, biology and applied science, this feat even surprised Sakura who is smarter than Sasuke another genius by miles

That seems very "instinctual"

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

That seems very "instinctual"

You still need the knowledge to be able to do so. When you see 1 + 1 you instinctively know that it’s 2 because you have reached a level of mystery of maths that you know it is without any extrapolation. If anything it just shows the level of mystery he has reached regarding this knowledge.

Naruto was also trying to explain how he made Kakashi eye to Sakura but could not find words that would make sense to her. It’s like teaching little children, you can try to explain it to them but they won’t understand the important terms ultimately making it “hard to explain”.

 

[Ezaru]

You still need the knowledge to be able to do so. When you see 1 + 1 you instinctively know that it’s 2 because you have reached a level of mystery of maths that you know it is without any extrapolation. If anything it just shows the level of mystery he has reached regarding this knowledge.

Naruto was also trying to explain how he made Kakashi eye to Sakura but could not find words that would make sense to her. It’s like teaching little children, you can try to explain it to them but they won’t understand the important terms ultimately making it “hard to explain”.

I can see that perspective yeah. Idk

I think he just copies Kakashi's other eye tho because no Sharingan + his words

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

I think he just copies Kakashi's other eye tho because no Sharingan

That would be assuming that he can dup things, we know he is able to create things out of nothing thanks to CoAT which he used here. Plus he was trying to give a scientific explanation to Sakura rather then just saying he duped Kakashi other eye. Moreover nard still has to make kakashi duped eye complimentary to his missing side still requiring knowledge to invert his left eye to a right eye

the sharingan is formed via special chakra made by the brain of an uchiha channeled into the eye of said uchiha. Naruto only gained a fragment of CoAT so it can be seen as a limitation of him not being able to create hereditary abilities. That or kishi didn’t want three kamui terrorizing the verse plus it would remove the obito DMS kakashi good bye, I prefer the latter

 

[Golden_Void]

The reason Naruto is an EG is not strictly because of his chakra control but the sate of mind he gained due to So6P. This databook entry states that those who reach So6P have gained a deep understanding of all principles of all creation, this is exemplified by his use of TSO and more importantly him creating an eye for kakashi out of scratch. Demonstrating that he has an immense knowledge in fields of physics, chemistry, biology and applied science, this feat even surprised Sakura who is smarter than Sasuke another genius by miles

You still need the knowledge to be able to do so. When you see 1 + 1 you instinctively know that it’s 2 because you have reached a level of mystery of maths that you know it is without any extrapolation. If anything it just shows the level of mystery he has reached regarding this knowledge.

Naruto was also trying to explain how he made Kakashi eye to Sakura but could not find words that would make sense to her. It’s like teaching little children, you can try to explain it to them but they won’t understand the important terms ultimately making it “hard to explain”.

You know 1+1 is 2 because it was taught to you. Naruto's abilities weren't taught to him.

He doesn't even understand the logic of his own thoughts. He's getting way too much credit. He's doing all these things because he's a reincarnation of Ashura and is connected to his abilities and traits through his chakra. Naruto has intuition, which is knowing without knowing how you know, which doesn't seem to be in alignment with our intelligence page.

Intelligence is a word that is incredibly difficult to define, as it has been used to refer to many things, such as one's ability to process information, or their capacity for logic, self-awareness, creativity, reasoning, and/or problem solving, or their knowledge and memory. In its fullest definition, intelligence can be said to encompass all these things

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

You know 1+1 is 2 because it was taught to you. Naruto's abilities weren't taught to him.

He doesn't even understand the logic of his own thoughts. He's getting way too much credit. He's doing all these things because he's a reincarnation of Ashura and is connected to his abilities and traits through his chakra. Naruto has intuition, which is knowing without knowing how you know, which doesn't seem to be in alignment with our intelligence page.

Him being the reincarnation of Asura has nothing to do with his EG rating. Hell even him being the reincarnation of Ashura doesn’t give any benefits, he had ass chakra control, no knowledge of anything, sub par skills. These reincarnation don’t just magically give power like some isekai protagonist and the rating is a direct result of him gaining So6P mode which gives him not only gives power but knowledge of the principles of creation which is outlined in that databook entry.

Here’s the thread where he got accepted as a EG

Naruto Really Smart Ig (Naruto Intelligence Rework)

Late Christmas Present for Naruto fans. Introduction: I plan on proving that Naruto should gain a separate intelligence rating through his understanding of nature, and the “tiering” of said rating should be Extraordinary Genius under our standards. Defining Terms: Before delving into the...

vsbattles.com

This will give a much more coherent explanation of his rating than I can

 

[Ezaru]

That would be assuming that he can dup things, we know he is able to create things out of nothing thanks to CoAT which he used here. Plus he was trying to give a scientific explanation to Sakura rather then just saying he duped Kakashi other eye. Moreover nard still has to make kakashi duped eye complimentary to his missing side still requiring knowledge to invert his left eye to a right eye

the sharingan is formed via special chakra made by the brain of an uchiha channeled into the eye of said uchiha. Naruto only gained a fragment of CoAT so it can be seen as a limitation of him not being able to create hereditary abilities. That or kishi didn’t want three kamui terrorizing the verse plus it would remove the obito DMS kakashi good bye, I prefer the latter

We know he duplicated it because he literally says so

That would be assuming that he can dup things, we know he is able to create things out of nothing thanks to CoAT which he used here. Plus he was trying to give a scientific explanation to Sakura rather then just saying he duped Kakashi other eye. Moreover nard still has to make kakashi duped eye complimentary to his missing side still requiring knowledge to invert his left eye to a right eye

I think he uses Kakashi's eye as a base then creates it

Based on this:


But he could mean "took a missing part and fixed it"

Better translation would help tho its fanlation I think

Good point about inversion, I still think this is a "wisdom"/"instinct" thing and not "Naruto knows bio 101" tho

the sharingan is formed via special chakra made by the brain of an uchiha channeled into the eye of said uchiha. Naruto only gained a fragment of CoAT so it can be seen as a limitation of him not being able to create hereditary abilities. That or kishi didn’t want three kamui terrorizing the verse plus it would remove the obito DMS kakashi good bye, I prefer the latter

It makes sense yeah

But also COAT

I guess not all XD, if SOSP can make Bjuu Naruto should be able to do something neat like make a sharingan

Edit: Here are the raws:

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

We know he duplicated it because he literally says so

No? He says he uses a part of kakashi to recreate his eye, if it was duplication why would he be beating around the bush and not say it outright?

I think he uses Kakashi's eye as a base then creates it

Based on this:

No evidence for that, he only says that he uses a part of kakshi to create his eye which means he used a part of kakshi and reconstructed that specifically part of the body into an eye which is much more impressive. Still if he does use the other eye as a base, it still requires him an advance amount of knowledge to create a complete separate biological part of the body with proper complimentary systems in respect to the other eye. You can’t do this without surface level understanding of smth

But he could mean "took a missing part and fixed it"

Same thing as above

Good point about inversion, I still think this is a "wisdom"/"instinct" thing and not "Naruto knows bio 101" tho

How tf are you gonna wisdom your way through multiple fields of science, that’s just being in denial.

I guess not all XD, if SOSP can make Bjuu Naruto should be able to do something neat like make a sharingan

I said he gained a fragment of the ability, meaning its lesser version than the one used by hags so Naruto not being able to do smth hags can do is not contradictory

 

[Syncornize]

Bro cooked

He cooked up a yapping session. He took a part of the intelligence text, cherry-picking the parts that suited him, for example omitting that creativity is listed and evaluated, since some characters have great “competence” in that field, just like with the use of BIQ, where it is stated that strategic and analytical abilities can easily be evaluated. The reason why BIQ is preferably distinguished from raw intelligence is to avoid mixing it, for example, with academic geniuses, and because comparisons at the martial level across different fields are hard to evaluate but not if it’s about the same thing, which I’d say is obvious.


He took the definitions literally, without providing context either for the text or within a work (in a general sense). For example, according to what he said, the reasoning abilities of Sherlock Holmes and Patrick Jane would be classed as Gifted just because they’re described in that tier, or that learning ability is always Gifted, without evaluating the complexity of the feat, the time it takes, or the time it takes an expert to achieve it, since it could be on a scale that is not humanly feasible, and “genius” also has real-world human bases.


In general, Naruto stays consistent in its fields of competence, and I also listed other feats. Just because they aren’t individually “genius-level” doesn’t mean I think they should be left out, they’re still part of his intelligence. Furthermore, he criticized some feats individually rather than by category, like creativity. And let’s not forget he said something like: “If a genius in that field can’t do something but you can, it’s strange to call you a genius,vespecially if it’s not something a real-world genius could do.” I don’t even need to explain or elaborate on that ; I’ve already answered him on this before.

Obviously, he didn't mention things like frightening coordination based on extremely minimal practical and analytical foundations. He did something like mind reading to several people. Calculating timing, prediction, intuition of techniques and actions is no small feat and is beyond human capabilities.


I listed mid-to-high-level feats across multiple fields, strategy, analysis, creativity, and adaptability, which also specifically involve chakra use and control, a recognized field of competence in the verse. This scales perfectly to Genius. Being skilled or talented in multiple fields falls within the realm of genius. Generally, looking at profiles and discussions, intelligence is often neglected or treated incorrectly. I disagree with the wiki’s approach of ignoring the process with all its complexity and only looking at the conclusion.

 

[Syncornize]

No? He says he uses a part of kakashi to recreate his eye, if it was duplication why would he be beating around the bush and not say it outright?

No evidence for that, he only says that he uses a part of kakshi to create his eye which means he used a part of kakshi and reconstructed that specifically part of the body into an eye which is much more impressive. Still if he does use the other eye as a base, it still requires him an advance amount of knowledge to create a complete separate biological part of the body with proper complimentary systems in respect to the other eye. You can’t do this without surface level understanding of smth

Same thing as above

How tf are you gonna wisdom your way through multiple fields of science, that’s just being in denial.

I said he gained a fragment of the ability, meaning its lesser version than the one used by hags so Naruto not being able to do smth hags can do is not contradictory

I can see that perspective yeah. Idk

I think he just copies Kakashi's other eye tho because no Sharingan + his words

This is not about Naruto’s current EG, and I’d rather not have the thread get clogged with unrelated matters, so I kindly ask you to please stop the discussion. Thank you, and my apologies

 

[Ezaru]

This is not about Naruto’s current EG, and I’d rather not have the thread get clogged with unrelated matters, so I kindly ask you to please stop the discussion. Thank you, and my apologies

Is the discussion not about his intelligence rating in general?

My conclusion, considering his multitasking feats and the upscaling sometimes significant against characters recognized and accepted as actual ninja geniuses on the wiki, would be to propose "AT LEAST GENIUS" for both categories. 'Extraordinary Genius' seems excessive for either section, but I'll leave the final word to you all.

Tbh I don't really know how they work

I see right now he has G (not sure why if chakra is seperately) and EG with chakra manipulation for war arc?

What exactly are you trying to change?

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

This is not about Naruto’s current EG, and I’d rather not have the thread get clogged with unrelated matters, so I kindly ask you to please stop the discussion. Thank you, and my apologies

Ma bad, I’ll drop the topic

 

[Syncornize]

Is the discussion not about his intelligence rating in general?



Tbh I don't really know how they work

I see right now he has G (not sure why if chakra is seperately) and EG with chakra manipulation for war arc?

What exactly are you trying to change?

I am updating the arc of war, obviously excluding the part about knowledge and application of the six paths. I generally consider everything except that "boost"

 

[HelloThere1089]

think you didn’t quite understand how intelligence and its evaluation work.

How ironic.

The page you linked doesn’t say that combat feats don’t and can’t be scaled.

It quite literally says "Unlike general intelligence, combat skill is not ranked on a scale with labels like "Genius" or "Supergenius." Due to the many factors involved, a simple rating system would fail to accurately capture a character's combat proficiency." Did you even read the page?

It says that BIQ on its own isn’t a standalone requirement like EG, which encompasses many more things, so as not to have separate “rankings” on its own.

No it pretty clearly says that the reason BIQ doesn't get a rating is because it is hard to put a label on it. Separate rankings can exist for fields other than BIQ.

BIQ is still a type of intelligence in combat you apply various forms of reasoning. I simply separated them so it wouldn’t all be lumped into one single thing.

Yeah and did you read this part of the page? "However, for many characters, it's useful to separate combat skill from general intelligence. This distinction is particularly important when a character is highly skilled in combat but lacks academic or intellectual prowess." If you separate combat skill and general intelligence, then you can't really put BIQ feats in general intelligence. That defeats the purpose of having the combat skill distinction.

Normal learning ability doesn’t have a high value, but it depends on the scale you use. If you compare it at a 1:4 ratio to a genius, you’re certainly not in the human range anymore.

Dude. Read the standards.

Gifted: Characters who demonstrate high reasoning ability, can master difficult concepts with few repetitions, and display high performance capability or notable mastery in intellectual or specific academic fields, which makes them equivalent to real-world experts in these areas.

Whatever you stated is not in the standards at all. Stop making up arbitrary rules. If you have a problem with how the wiki scales things, then make a CRT about it. This is just straight forward gifted stuff.

Tiers like EG are based on inventing objects, and among the most renowned geniuses in real life there are artists or inventors like Leonardo da Vinci, creativity is an excellent part of intelligence. I don’t understand why you treat every feat I listed as if it stands alone.

Because none of them seem to qualify for Genius. Just having creativity isn't a qualifier of a genius rating. The "inventing" stuff you mentioned, Naruto either did it with the help of shadow clones or in case of sexy jutsu, it is not impressive at all.

The description you yourself linked doesn’t say you must be able to do everything at X level, it’s enough if you can do many things well.

Dude...

Genius: Individuals with an exceptional capacity for knowledge and intelligence, usually in one area of varying depth. This level of intellect is the level of real-world geniuses, polymaths, and genuinely extremely prominent intellectuals, and, in the absence of better feats, should be the default intelligence category for fictional characters with exceptional or superhuman intelligence.

This is the requirement.

The creative use of certain things is creative intelligence, which is evaluated, especially if it’s on a scale above or equal to that of a genius.

Right. So sexy jutsu and using shadow clones to learn harem jutsu is above real world genius in terms of creativity? Again stick to the standard. The genius rating specifically states "real-world genius".

According to your reasoning, having a high capacity for reasoning would remain Gifted regardless of the scale at which you apply it. Just because it’s the only tier that mentions it doesn’t mean that’s its only relevant tier.

No. Having a high capability of reasoning beyond that of real world geniuses would be considered genius. That's because reasoning ability is an area that is mastered irl. The issue with naruto isn't that creativity is the only relevant tier. The issue is that the things he is good at are supernatural combat related and can't really be scaled to real geniuses. Also most of his feats aren't even that good.

Reasoning is impartial, because in that time frame you will have a general, not perfect, knowledge or application of the concept , something that takes a scientist time and knowledge to achieve. Also, the context is completely different: the functioning of the Bijūdama was already known, but as is stated, replicating it is extremely difficult. It requires an extremely high level of mastery that’s considered difficult even for other characters accepted as geniuses, and impossible for most people experienced in that field. Once again, it depends on the scale on which the feat is performed.

No the context isn't different. If we go by your logic then Konohamaru is more of a genius than Minato. C'mon dude.

On this point I disagreed, it’s the first point in my thread…
You have to contextualize the level of difficulty of the thing.

Bro he literally used a shortcut. What are you even talking about? He literally HAD to use shadow clones precisely because he couldn't do it in a short time.

“Genius” doesn’t refer only to things possible in real life.

The official definition on the wiki states real world genius dude....This is the entire reason combat skill doesn't get a rating but other fields do. It is on the page. Read it.

The examples used for upscaling concern the individual or the same fields. If you rival Einstein in physics, that means you’re at his level. I’ve never used intelligence as conventional scaling

And Einstein is a real world genius. So that actually fits the given definition.

He cooked up a yapping session.

It's funny you said this at the start of your response....

He took the definitions literally, without providing context either for the text or within a work (in a general sense). For example, according to what he said, the reasoning abilities of Sherlock Holmes and Patrick Jane would be classed as Gifted just because they’re described in that tier

I never said anything close to this. All Sherlock and Patrick Jane would need to do is be at the level of real world geniuses in terms of reasoning to get a genius rating. That's because reasoning is a field that people irl actually do and therefore can be scaled. Learning a rasengan cannot be scaled to real world geniuses. Which is why combat skill is distinguished.

, or that learning ability is always Gifted, without evaluating the complexity of the feat, the time it takes, or the time it takes an expert to achieve it, since it could be on a scale that is not humanly feasible, and “genius” also has real-world human bases.

Is learning ability an area of varying depth?

In general, Naruto stays consistent in its fields of competence, and I also listed other feats. Just because they aren’t individually “genius-level” doesn’t mean I think they should be left out,

None of them need to be left out. But at least one of them needs to fit the given definition of genius on the site.

they’re still part of his intelligence. Furthermore, he criticized some feats individually rather than by category, like creativity. And let’s not forget he said something like: “If a genius in that field can’t do something but you can, it’s strange to call you a genius,vespecially if it’s not something a real-world genius could do.” I don’t even need to explain or elaborate on that ; I’ve already answered him on this before.

And it was straight bs...

Obviously, he didn't mention things like frightening coordination based on extremely minimal practical and analytical foundations. He did something like mind reading to several people. Calculating timing, prediction, intuition of techniques and actions is no small feat and is beyond human capabilities.

None of the stuff mentioned in the general intelligence section is impressive from real world standards of reasoning and strategy. Only thing impressive is his chakra control which can't really be scaled to real world geniuses.

I disagree with the wiki’s approach of ignoring the process with all its complexity and only looking at the conclusion.

Then change the standards first. Until you do, Naruto doesn't qualify for a genius rating because of how it is defined here. This isn't SCD.

 

[Syncornize]

How ironic.

I have already given an answer both to you and to Void, but I won’t do it again because of your clearly provocative reply. In some parts, you evidently didn’t understand what I meant; as I’ve already said, you tend to take certain concepts literally, and you also used other points or examples that are not consistent with the concepts I put forward, in some cases even contradictory.
In any case, you’re free to keep your opinion, but Naruto remains competent in several areas of intelligence, and in some of these he is beyond the human range or at the human peak.
I still apologize, because if you responded in a certain way, perhaps it’s because I expressed some things in a less than polite manner.

 

[HelloThere1089]

provocative reply.

How ironic

He cooked up a yapping session.

Try taking what you dish out next time. It's fine to disagree, but don't pretend the person across you has no point just because you disagree with him.

 

[Syncornize]

How ironic

Try taking what you dish out next time.

You can think they were, but they weren’t, this is my opinion, and it doesn’t change. I still apologized, but perhaps not everyone is capable of burying the hatchet. Now I would like to give space to messages of relevance without repeating myself.
And no, I don't think your arguments are valid, and I've already explained why, but I don't want to repeat myself and get into a never ending discussion.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Lol good one.

 

[Zefra3011]

What this means is that combat intelligence doesn't contribute to an intelligence rating.

Did you even read the page?