Eternatus ain't 2-A and neither are the rest of the mons

[Banjo77]

Either way delta meteor thing is less about AP and more about DC... I think.

I'm not sure about that. uh, that's just DC, since the AP is also part of why Rayquaza could take it out. The implication that the planet had nothing to stop the meteor. Rayquaza was pretty damning on scale.

 

[LordTracer]

Well I just think they should just have High 3-A to 2-B, possibly 2-A for their avatars since they vary in power.

I think it’s worth making a CRT after this one to give the CT’s avatars a Varies tier.

 

[Arceus0x]

I'm not sure about that. uh, that's just DC, since the AP is also part of why Rayquaza could take it out. The implication that the planet had nothing to stop the meteor. Rayquaza was pretty damning on scale.

First, the implications aren't always right here. In a lot of stories the plot is quite self contained so only legendaries relevant to the main story end up playing a role. An example of that is that in a parallel Alola nobody could stop Guzzlord from devastating despite the fact that there was definitely some legendaries like the CT present in the world.

Additionally, like I said, the delta meteor thing is somewhat contradictory. Deoxys makes the meteor fly in the first place, Rayquaza is superior to Deoxys and yet needs Mega Evo to break the meteor. As you can see the feat itself is contradictory in scaling so its not a good argument in the first place.

 

[Banjo77]

I mean examples Guzlord somewhat questionable considering that rarely those of the CT trio enter into Earthly matters that do not put the World at risk if I do not see matter for a single planet this only means that Guzlord is > legendary planet the Planetary Scale is based Rayquaza hence Plus the Legendary Generation 2 and 8 5 does not have planetary scale
the 6 are based on the Final Weapon Destruction
and the 7 were not even present until Nebby evolved

 

[Arceus0x]

I mean examples Guzlord somewhat questionable considering that rarely those of the CT trio enter into Earthly matters that do not put the World at risk if I do not see matter for a single planet this only means that Guzlord is > legendary planet the Planetary Scale is based Rayquaza hence Plus the Legendary Generation 2 and 8 5 does not have planetary scale
the 6 are based on the Final Weapon Destruction
and the 7 were not even present until Nebby evolved

 

[Banjo77]

Sorry, the point is that the Guzzlord thing is coherent. The Trio Creation rarely gets involved in earthly matters if they don't put Reality at Risk and in any case that only means Guzzlord is more dangerous than the Legendaries that inhabit the planet. Aside from that, our scale for Legendaries largely only exists because the player can fight them in the Post Game

 

[Arceus0x]

Sorry, the point is that the Guzzlord thing is coherent. The Trio Creation rarely gets involved in earthly matters if they don't put Reality at Risk and in any case that only means Guzzlord is more dangerous than the Legendaries that inhabit the planet. Aside from that, our scale for Legendaries largely only exists because the player can fight them in the Post Game

Yes and I call bullshit not only because there ARE stronger legendaries, there's also the fact that there are trainers who OWN Dialga, Palkia, Giratina ect.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Deoxys makes the meteor fly in the first place, Rayquaza is superior to Deoxys and yet needs Mega Evo to break the meteor.

Deoxys doesnt makes the meteor fly, he changed it’s original trajectory.

Also the Base Ray > Deoxys reasoning is faulty as freak. But that’s a different discussion.

 

[Arceus0x]

Deoxys doesnt makes the meteor fly, he changed it’s original trajectory.

Also the Base Ray > Deoxys reasoning is faulty as freak. But that’s a different discussion.

Deoxys made it to a 90° turn and moves it across the galaxy in like a week, something meteors don't do naturally. Thus, he did move. Even then he tanked Mega Ray nuking it.

 

[Arceus0x]

Anyways I genuinely don't give a damn about this whole debacle. All I wanna know is what staff vote for - 2-B, 2-A for all legendaries or scale them normally.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Anyways I genuinely don't give a damn about this whole debacle. All I wanna know is what staff vote for - 2-B, 2-A for all legendaries or scale them normally.

Yeah lets get back on topic

 

[Arceus0x]

Bump

 

[Arceus0x]

Bump

 

[Arceus0x]

bumpo

 

[Hypertornado099]

So there's really only 2 options to go with

1. We nerf Zacian, Zamazenta and Eternatus back to their original stats.
2. We upgrade every legendary to 2-B, possibly 2-A.

Anyone has thoughts on these?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

There’s a lot of different sub topics underneath the main topic to have discussions about. Some ideas I agree with, some I disagree with (such as a varies rating for the CT avatars, I’m gonna put it out there right now that I’m against the Avatars being rated any different in power from their true forms, but I think that should be a separate discussion)

For now, all I’ll say is something I’ve said before. I think the way we’ve been treating the Legendaries tiering in general has been super conservative for no real reason or rhyme to it. I’ve come to notice that a lot of our tiering for Legendaries is based off of feats that are just insanely casual for them, and because of that, they’re used as the basis for scaling or denying feats, assuming theyre the ceiling tier for them when they aren’t really at all where legendaries cap at in power. They are far from what’s actually considered to be their true levels of power.

For example, Lugia and Hoopa, as I see that brought up in this thread. In Lugias case, its current tier comes from a feat that’s done just by literally flapping its wings. This is something extremely casual and doesn’t actually display a serious demonstration of what Lugias serious power would be. So while Lugia from the Hoopa movie showed much higher scaling for battling Hoopa, I wouldn’t say the 2000 movie Lugia is automatically weaker. An argument can be made to say battling Hoopa actually demonstrates Lugia using more serious levels of power than what we’ve seen prior. You know, an actual ceiling of Lugias true power. Lugia in the movie is wasn’t trying to obliterate the legendary birds, just stop them from going out of chaos.

Generally speaking, I’m not against giving legendaries, in the general sense, a varies rating or something like what Digimon does, but an equally good option I’d accept is just giving the legendaries more appropriate scaling and tiering them higher. Whether that’s up to 2B / 2A or otherwise is one thing, but that can be discussed.

 

[Keeweed]

I think we should be far stricter on legendaries and have only the ones that consistently fight each other scale (since if we are causal with it, it leads to tier jumps all over the shop all the way up to 2-A despite there being absolutely nothing in this series that grants cosmic power and the 2-A characters literally making everyone combined and being able to end them in an instant if they wished) and have nothing scale to legendaries ever: especially trainer pokemon by hundreds of miles I miss when we had it they didn’t scale.

Flapping wings isn’t innately causal we have no reference for how hard they are flapping, presumably extra hard since they fly all the time, even in fights, and don’t create storms.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I think we should be far stricter on legendaries and have only the ones that consistently fight each other scale (since if we are causal with it, it leads to tier jumps all over the shop all the way up to 2-A despite there being absolutely nothing in this series that grants cosmic power and the 2-A characters literally making everyone combined and being able to end them in an instant if they wished) and have nothing scale to legendaries ever: especially trainer pokemon by hundreds of miles I miss when we had it they didn’t scale.

Flapping wings isn’t innately causal we have no reference for how hard they are flapping, presumably extra hard since they fly all the time, even in fights, and don’t create storms.

The problem with this, however, is that “consistently fighting each other” doesn’t really apply as a reason to do this when, for the most part, the feats and fights we got for certain legendaries IS the most consistent thing for them. Most legendaries have very few anti feats against their scaling, if any at all. And with the canon split no longer existing, this works even more in legendaries favors of scaling.

The last bit is also not really much of an argument. Flapping wings is just flapping wings, no different than an ordinary bird simply flying around, it’s still a showcase of Lugia using nowhere close to any of its serious power. There’s other much better examples than this, also. For instance? Ho Oh having a potential High 6-B feat just from the power of a single a literal feather.

Also, no to removing trainer scaling as far as I’m concerned. Cal pretty much made a thread a huge while back that gave a buttload of reasons for trainer Pokémon (mainly consisting of higher end trainers like Champions and E4s) to scale. They have a lot more going for them than against them and there’s really no reason not to scale trainers to them other than sheer skepticism, overusing outlier arguments and being conservative with the scaling.

 

[Banjo77]

The problem with this, however, is that “consistently fighting each other” doesn’t really apply as a reason to do this when, for the most part, the feats and fights we got for certain legendaries IS the most consistent thing for them. Most legendaries have very few anti feats against their scaling, if any at all. And with the canon split no longer existing, this works even more in legendaries favors of scaling.

The last bit is also not really much of an argument. Flapping wings is just flapping wings, no different than an ordinary bird simply flying around, it’s still a showcase of Lugia using nowhere close to any of its serious power. There’s other much better examples than this, also. For instance? Ho Oh having a potential High 6-B feat just from the power of a single a literal feather.

Also, no to removing trainer scaling as far as I’m concerned. Cal pretty much made a thread a huge while back that gave a buttload of reasons for trainer Pokémon (mainly consisting of higher end trainers like Champions and E4s) to scale. They have a lot more going for them than against them and there’s really no reason not to scale trainers to them other than sheer skepticism, overusing outlier arguments and being conservative with the scaling.

I’m sorry to say this, but if you don’t take into account Hoopa’s movie feats, Lugia has nothing comparable, neither in the games nor in the anime. Even in its own original movie, despite giving its best effort, it was brought down and left nearly dead. Moreover, most legendaries, consistently, only have planet-level feats by scaling to Rayquaza — a feat that was considered something only Rayquaza could achieve.

As for scaling to Necrozma, this comes from the manga, where in no other medium outside of it does Zygarde ever show anything close to Necrozma’s level. Even when scaled, in the anime, the legendaries’ feats come from SM Ash and Cynthia in DP, which are more atypical cases rather than standard planet-level ones.

 

[Keeweed]

“Cal pretty much made a thread a huge while back that gave a buttload of reasons for trainer Pokémon (mainly consisting of higher end trainers like Champions and E4s) to scale. They have a lot more going for them than against them and there’s really no reason not to scale trainers to them other than sheer skepticism, overusing outlier arguments and being conservative with the scaling.”

That thread ignoring the underlying arguement is moronic. The creation trio made everything in all of totality an infinite number of times throughout all of time (thus infinite to the infinite power) and can get rid of everything at whim. Anything scaling to that without a connection to that cosmic power would innately be the biggest outlier of all time by default. As shown by how it is spiraling out of control to somehow leading every random generic legendary being 2-A somehow.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I’m sorry to say this, but if you don’t take into account Hoopa’s movie feats, Lugia has nothing comparable, neither in the games nor in the anime. Even in its own original movie, despite giving its best effort, it was brought down and left nearly dead.

If this is in reference to Lugia vs the legendary birds, I already noted something out to address this actually. Lugia wasn’t fighting the 3 of them with full power, it was trying to calm them down and have them stop fighting, not obliterate them.

But for the next bit…

Moreover, most legendaries, consistently, only have planet-level feats by scaling to Rayquaza — a feat that was considered something only Rayquaza could achieve.

This bit isnt really true, like, at all. Most legendaries get their tiers mainly through scaling off of each other. The few legendaries who do have the planet level feats? Those feats are, as I said before, extremely casual for them and are nowhere close to their full power.

Deoxys simply piloting GMD, Reshiram doing stuff like altering the worlds atompshere by virtually doing nothing. Hell, before the tier 3 upgrades were originally given out, Xerneas had a feat in PMD that was bare minimum tier 5 that it did simply by dying.

As for scaling to Necrozma, this comes from the manga, where in no other medium outside of it does Zygarde ever show anything close to Necrozma’s level.

Because Zygarde has next to no appearances at all outside the manga. The anime it’s simply mainly 50% that shows up most of the time and only for Team Flare shenanigans. In the games? Zygarde has no main appearance whatsoever. The manga is what’s used to showcase Zygardes actual power as that’s pretty much the closest to a full on actual fight and display of its power we get from it. The closest thing to power for Zygarde we get from the games is the lore of it traveling to Alola to fend off the Ultra Beasts, something the manga perfectly coincides with as Zygarde handily deals with them and holds its own quite considerably with Ultra Necrozma. This isn’t something that’s conjured up only in the manga, and the Pokémon canon that we’ve gone with when reversing the canon split has already made it clear that other mediums are equally valid sources to showcase something for Pokémon that other mediums either haven’t gotten the chance to do, or werent able to.

Either way, the vast majority of the time, “Legendaries not showing anywhere close to X level in Y medium” mainly is because they simply have no appearances to display anything, and that’s not how we dismiss tiering or scaling.

There’s also no anti feats for legendaries that can dismiss their scaling, either.

Even when scaled, in the anime, the legendaries’ feats come from SM Ash and Cynthia in DP, which are more atypical cases rather than standard planet-level ones.

Not certain what this point pertains to.

 

[Keeweed]

“Deoxys simply piloting GMD, Reshiram doing stuff like altering the worlds atompshere by virtually doing nothing. Hell, before the tier 3 upgrades were originally given out, Xerneas had a feat in PMD that was bare minimum tier 5 that it did simply by dying”

Nothing about these are causal. Piloting the meteor clearly isn’t casual as he’s actively trying to use it as an attack (meaning it would be dumb if he was casually stronger) and it took effort to destroy it (and mega but that is a bit finicky). Xerneas dying has always been a special event, that says everything about his death and nothing on his usual power. Altering the world isn’t assumed to be causal when it’s done through existence. Many series got actively downgraded for this reason (Rwby being prime case, a maiden changed the weather with a hand raise, that really meant nothing on how causal it was). Just doing something doesn’t make it casual, that has to be stated or shown. This applies to the wing flaps earlier, you can flap your wings harder and moving your hands isn’t innately causal either.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

“Cal pretty much made a thread a huge while back that gave a buttload of reasons for trainer Pokémon (mainly consisting of higher end trainers like Champions and E4s) to scale. They have a lot more going for them than against them and there’s really no reason not to scale trainers to them other than sheer skepticism, overusing outlier arguments and being conservative with the scaling.”

That thread ignoring the underlying arguement is moronic. The creation trio made everything in all of totality an infinite number of times throughout all of time (thus infinite to the infinite power) and can get rid of everything at whim. Anything scaling to that without a connection to that cosmic power would innately be the biggest outlier of all time by default. As shown by how it is spiraling out of control to somehow leading every random generic legendary being 2-A somehow.

I disagree. This whole point is pretty much just a large case of being an argument of incredulity. Something being of a cosmic scale doesn’t mean we get to ignore the writing on the wall with a number of cases providing evidence of scaling. Especially cases that are blatant plot point circumstances that are consistent (Ex: Champions consistently being fought after the protagonist deals with the regional legendary, and are even tougher in rematch battles)

This logic can go for a ton of verses where characters, on the surface, don’t appear to have any business of scaling to their verses higher end level of feats, but we do so. Why would Pokémon be any different from this logic?

 

[Keeweed]

Because those series at least even try to have an explanation about growing in power or having the ability to fight them now. And if not, they should be downgraded for the same reason there. It’s not an argument from incredulity. The creation trio have and have shown they still can make everyone all combined instantly and destroy them. Like when they remade the universe and promptly destroyed it. They can make everyone combined and kill everyone combined. That is the largest anti feat of all time.
(Also have to sleep for work, sorry)

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Nothing about these are causal. Piloting the meteor clearly isn’t casual as he’s actively trying to use it as an attack (meaning it would be dumb if he was casually stronger) and it took effort to destroy it (and mega but that is a bit finicky).

There’s no “effort”. All of what your saying consists of being an attack is Deoxys literally just launching the meteor into the planet. And as far as Rayquaza goes, it sliced through the meteor like it was literally nothing. Where in this implies any real effort is involved?

Xerneas dying has always been a special event, that says everything about his death and nothing on his usual power.

You’re missing the point. The very fact that feat was done in a state of borderline death shows Xerneas had astronomically inferior levels of power of what it normally possesses, and still could do the feat. So that stands to reason that Xerneas’s normal power, let alone full power, is astronomically superior to the feat and the feat itself can’t be used as a ceiling cap to deny any further upgrades.

Also, how in any way is this a “special event”? This sounds like a cop out.

Altering the world isn’t assumed to be causal when it’s done through existence.

And why not? Your not explaining why pretty much at all.

Many series got actively downgraded for this reason (Rwby being prime case, a maiden changed the weather with a hand raise, that really meant nothing on how causal it was). Just doing something doesn’t make it casual, that has to be stated or shown. This applies to the wing flaps earlier, you can flap your wings harder and moving your hands isn’t innately causal either.

Putting aside whataboutism, all your doing is pretty much specifying that this case with RWBY, if anything, needs to be re examined as the logic sounds very faulty.

None of this is grounds to say either case isn’t casual. This all sounds like arguments of incredulity and forcing these cases to be conservative for no real reason behind them.

Because those series at least even try to have an explanation about growing in power or having the ability to fight them now.

And guess what? Pokémon has those explanations for justifying things like trainer scaling as well. The very fact that protagonists train and grow stronger over the course of the story, canonically battling, catching, and/or defeating the regional legendaries they face, trainer bonding with Pokémon allowing for exponentially higher boosting of a Pokémon’s strength beyond their normal capabilities that’s been proven many many times over, trainers like Champions and the E4 (who are literally the strongest trainers in-verse from their respective countries, so it’s not like we’re scaling a random Route 4 trainer to these levels) canonically being the more difficult battles for the protagonist, their most challenging battles in-universe and even more challenging during the rematch battles, the list goes on.

These trainers aren’t being scaled to legendaries for just no reason or explanation. And if we can have cases were virtually a whole verse scales to a few feats, or half a verse can scale from a feat from god tiers (DBS as a perfect example), Pokémon fits comfortably under the very same logic.

It’s not an argument from incredulity.

It pretty much is. Your only real argument against things like trainer Pokémon scaling from legendaries, is simply because you don’t believe they can be that strong.

The creation trio have and have shown they still can make everyone all combined instantly and destroy them. Like when they remade the universe and promptly destroyed it. They can make everyone combined and kill everyone combined. That is the largest anti feat of all time.
(Also have to sleep for work, sorry)

Since when does recreating individuals means the created individuals can’t be comparable to what creates them? The CT aren’t like Arceus.

 

[Keeweed]

Why would he launch the meteor towards the planet if it isn’t an attack? Deoxys actively went out of his way to go grab it for that purpose. Rayquaza was mega at the time, the entire reason the mega was considered inconsistent through earlier threads was because base form can kill Deoxys who specifically needs the meteor (that or he’s a moron). But if Rayquaza easily did it then that means that was from mega, which would fit with base Rayquaza and Deoxys being rivals and it just means mega Rayquaza is far higher. But like he was specifically needed so that is still an anti feat for the large majority of legendaries.

Creating someone is absolutely a feat against that person scaling. The creation trio have to the power to create you literally an infinite of times, times the infinite number of times through the past and future, times the infinite multiverse and their past and futures. And at whim are strong enough to instantly end all of that. The scaling chain would go “literally everything to an infinite number of infinite powers < the creation trio < some rando in that existence somehow = literally everything”. Or we can just say no nothing to scales to the creation trio for obvious reasons they are god in comparison to everything else.

It’s a precedent when it comes to causalness. If one verse special has it that existence and a slight hand raise doesn’t count as casual there is nothing in pokemon that says these are causal. Flapping your wings isn’t causal to begin with, birds put effort into that, and you can choose to put more effort into it. Considering Lugia doesn’t constantly make storms every time they show up, they had to put effort into doing it. You can flail your arms with effort.

 

[OrangeFR]

Why would he launch the meteor towards the planet if it isn’t an attack? Deoxys actively went out of his way to go grab it for that purpose. Rayquaza was mega at the time, the entire reason the mega was considered inconsistent through earlier threads was because base form can kill Deoxys who specifically needs the meteor (that or he’s a moron). But if Rayquaza easily did it then that means that was from mega, which would fit with base Rayquaza and Deoxys being rivals and it just means mega Rayquaza is far higher. But like he was specifically needed so that is still an anti feat for the large majority of legendaries.

Creating someone is absolutely a feat against that person scaling. The creation trio have to the power to create you literally an infinite of times, times the infinite number of times through the past and future, times the infinite multiverse and their past and futures. And at whim are strong enough to instantly end all of that. The scaling chain would go “literally everything to an infinite number of infinite powers < the creation trio < some rando in that existence somehow = literally everything”. Or we can just say no nothing to scales to the creation trio for obvious reasons they are god in comparison to everything else.

It’s a precedent when it comes to causalness. If one verse special has it that existence and a slight hand raise doesn’t count as casual there is nothing in pokemon that says these are causal. Flapping your wings isn’t causal to begin with, birds put effort into that, and you can choose to put more effort into it. Considering Lugia doesn’t constantly make storms every time they show up, they had to put effort into doing it. You can flail your arms with effort.

Even if Mega was needed it doesn’t matter much because he uses it in the hoopa movie and all of the legendaries scale to it anyway

 

[Keeweed]

The hoopa movie is the classic everyone cross over and fights every movie. Just like when the avengers meet up in comics. It’s incoherent as it would lead to many legendaries being stronger than legendaries they are specifically shown to be weaker to. Like base Groudon would be mega Ray’s level despite base Ray defeating them at their strongest. Or again, literally everyone being stronger than the creation trio despite them literally creating and destroying everything. If they were fighting seriously, they would just stop being everyone’s existences as they can do that.

 

[OrangeFR]

The hoopa movie is the classic everyone cross over and fights every movie. Just like when the avengers meet up in comics. It’s incoherent as it would lead to many legendaries being stronger than legendaries they are specifically shown to be weaker to. Like base Groudon would be mega Ray’s level despite base Ray defeating them at their strongest. Or again, literally everyone being stronger than the creation trio despite them literally creating and destroying everything. If they were fighting seriously, they would just stop being everyone’s existences as they can do that.

Groudon was in Primal Form lmao. Also no one is even saying the creation trio is weaker than the other legends just that they aren’t infinitely stronger than them because they can fight each other.

 

[Keeweed]

Except for when the creation decide to just create a new universe with all of them combined then destroy it. Then they are infinitely superior to them all.
Also primal Groudon and Kyogre are the ones base ray previously stomped into the dirt so it still makes no sense anyways. Also I did watch the movie just has been a bit so sorry for the mix up there but the point is pretty much the same. The movie instantly creates a circle scaling chain.

 

[Banjo77]

Groudon was in Primal Form lmao. Also no one is even saying the creation trio is weaker than the other legends just that they aren’t infinitely stronger than them because they can fight each other.

using Hoppa movie is more inconsistent things in Journeys are finally scared of two realities by Dialga and Palkia to the point they should call Arceus if some incredible legendary pokemon is capable would have said it but it was not and your only examples super Incoherent movie in that same season all feared the giant rock was unable to destroy a planet the next season it is considered that Necrozma giving birth to a single planet is an incredible Feat being far below any casual feat then eternatux sealing little scream shown god level feat but somehow it is less consistent than a silly scale movie where Latios and Latias perform better Dialga and Palkia

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Why would he launch the meteor towards the planet if it isn’t an attack? Deoxys actively went out of his way to go grab it for that purpose.

That’s not what I meant. What I was saying is, the only thing as far as actually exerting any sort of “real” effort for this feat, is Deoxys piloting the meteor into the planet. It’s pretty far away from, say, launching a fully powered energy blast or constantly pumping energy into an attack.

This is also not taking into account Deoxys doing this constantly, for over a week straight, and then immediately getting into battle with Mega Rayquaza after surviving the whole meteor being obliterated with pretty much 0 damage.

Rayquaza was mega at the time, the entire reason the mega was considered inconsistent through earlier threads was because base form can kill Deoxys who specifically needs the meteor (that or he’s a moron).

This hasn’t been brought up recently, so this complaint I get, but the simple solution is that base Rayquaza isn’t above Deoxys, and if anything, Deoxys should be re scaled back to Mega Rayquaza.

I recently relooked over Deoxys’s showings, like Destiny Deoxys, and the whole “Rayquaza stomped Deoxys” thing that we’ve gone with for a while is taken extremely out of proportion. I planned to make a thread for this, but since this thread is here, I’ll sum up the main point.

Base Rayquaza only has one actual feat that goes against Deoxys. The latter has much more evidence of being above the former than the other way around. But that topic in particular can be brushed aside for now while we discuss the other stuff.

Creating someone is absolutely a feat against that person scaling. The creation trio have to the power to create you literally an infinite of times, times the infinite number of times through the past and future, times the infinite multiverse and their past and futures. And at whim are strong enough to instantly end all of that. The scaling chain would go “literally everything to an infinite number of infinite powers < the creation trio < some rando in that existence somehow = literally everything”. Or we can just say no nothing to scales to the creation trio for obvious reasons they are god in comparison to everything else.

I’m fairly confident that this isn’t how this works and not once in this wikis history have we ever abided by this kind of logic. The same way that we don’t automatically scale creator gods to everything in their verse, the beings who are created aren’t automatically inferior.

It’s like saying someone who creates a universe and creates someone from their point of birth automatically scales above the final eventual version of the created character. Not taking things like power systems and the individuals own potential capabilities into account.

It’s a precedent when it comes to causalness. If one verse special has it that existence and a slight hand raise doesn’t count as casual there is nothing in pokemon that says these are causal.

And again, why and where does this come from? Because what this sounds like, to me anyway, is us forcing every series to fit under some sort of umbrella standard because one verse does something in particular, when it should be the other way around, as obviously not all verses abide by the same things. Even putting aside the logic just not holding up, a verses standards are an exception, not the norm.

Flapping your wings isn’t causal to begin with, birds put effort into that, and you can choose to put more effort into it. Considering Lugia doesn’t constantly make storms every time they show up, they had to put effort into doing it. You can flail your arms with effort.

The latter is a bad example and as much legit as me saying virtually every character who’s FTL+ or MFTL or above aren’t that fast because they don’t constantly move at those speeds with every single step or lunge they take. That kind of nitpicking would downgrade quite a lot to the extreme.

 

[Keeweed]

A ftl character not being constantly faster than light would specifically be because that would take effort to move that fast thus their constant movements are that fast unless they chose to do so. It’s the exact same as not putting enough effort into creating a storm with your wing flaps unless you wanted to.

Maybe Ray could just be far higher with hyper beam, that would track with how the move is supposed to work. But then if the meteor feat is something he did while mega and Deoxys is mega level, then that would line up with the meteor itself being a mega level feat, since he would literally have zero reason for the meteor otherwise. It can’t even be destructive capability versus attack potency, he’s specifically is giving the meteor the power to destroy the planet.

For the creation trio, that’s because story usually give an explanation as to how you grew stronger than the gods. Pokemon doesn’t at all. They can create and destroy you at whim at any point and just having a power up system doesn’t mean it extends to defeating your own existence times infinity.

 

[Mickey1940]

would it be reasonable to nerf the Creation Trio Avatars to not be 2B/2A?

we can keep their true forms as 2A but just nerf the physical bodies they make to interact with the pokemon world

cuz I feel like their avatars have some pretty bad showings in both the game and the anime

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

A ftl character not being constantly faster than light would specifically be because that would take effort to move that fast thus their constant movements are that fast unless they chose to do so. It’s the exact same as not putting enough effort into creating a storm with your wing flaps unless you wanted to.

This wouldn’t pertain to characters who do that extremely easily, however. Those who can side step FTL characters, move that fast without even trying. Obviously they aren’t moving that fast every single second because taking details like that to the literal extreme means inconsistency couldn’t ever exist at all or writers or animators wouldn’t ever forget details. That’s what rises to the level of nitpicking. This arbitrary notion of “needing to take effort” neglects the idea that feats always need some form of notable effort to perform them and that’s just simply not true.

In Lugias case goes, this idea of “it can flap its wings, but not enough to cause storms” is nitpicking the information. Especially since Lugias Pokédex info about this pretty heavily suggests that its wing flapping doesn’t take much effort. A light flutter of its wings causes houses to to blow apart. Then flapping its wings causes 40-day storms.

If you want to say the wing flapping exerts more effort than the former, that is one thing. It being a quite notable amount of effort, when this is just akin to birds simply hovering, is a whole other thing, and it certainly doesn’t make it an accurate representation of Lugia putting any real effort into its power like it would fighting against other legendaries. A wing flap isn’t a different level above a flutter.

Maybe Ray could just be far higher with hyper beam, that would track with how the move is supposed to work.

Considering Deoxys later on in the movie survived a point blank hit from Hyper Beam with pretty much no damage, this would be incorrect. Unless you meant something else with this point.

But then if the meteor feat is something he did while mega and Deoxys is mega level, then that would line up with the meteor itself being a mega level feat, since he would literally have zero reason for the meteor otherwise. It can’t even be destructive capability versus attack potency, he’s specifically is giving the meteor the power to destroy the planet.

Besides the fact that Deoxys is formed from the meteor? Unless I’m missing something? It isn’t as if Deoxys plops inside of it and uses it in the same way a human would a spaceship. Deoxys is literally birthed from meteors, that’s the whole point of its origins in the first place. It’s a mutation formed from a space-originating virus, so it had a natural association with them.

And the meteor itself already has that, Deoxys isn’t pumping its energy into the meteor to give it that amount of force. The meteor simply moving results in that.

For the creation trio, that’s because story usually give an explanation as to how you grew stronger than the gods. Pokemon doesn’t at all.

I already noted this out earlier. The protagonist simply training up their team over the course of the story, and also narratively being made to be powerful enough to stop the threat the regional legendary and evil team of their region poses, is an explanation for their power being made comparable to the legendaries they scale to. Characters undergoing training is already viewed as an extremely common trope for characters growing exponentially stronger and making further scaling and upgrades acceptable. And with Pokémon, there’s been an extreme amount of cases where trainer Pokémon, through connections with trainers, unlock capabilities far above what a Pokémon is naturally capable of on their own. Unlocking powers like Mega Evolution, Z-moves, unique special capabilities pertaining to that Pokémon. There is an explanation for them, they don’t obtain these capabilities out of nowhere.

They can create and destroy you at whim at any point and just having a power up system doesn’t mean it extends to defeating your own existence times infinity.

And like I said before, this isn’t how this works. We don’t default to making creation gods superior to everything within their series for a basis like this, as we always havent, and the same precedent works in reverse where a creation isn’t made to be absolutely inferior to what created them. The only obvious exceptions are if the creator god is considered an absolute omnipotent force within their verse with consistent invincibility, or somethjng like 1-A that exceeds absolutely everything.

None of which applies to the creation trio.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

would it be reasonable to nerf the Creation Trio Avatars to not be 2B/2A?

we can keep their true forms as 2A but just nerf the physical bodies they make to interact with the pokemon world

cuz I feel like their avatars have some pretty bad showings in both the game and the anime

This suggestion was already brought up before and it would be a no. You can’t just nerf a version of a character or apply a random varied type of rating without an actual in-universe reason or narrative explanation provided in the series that presents the idea of the versions being weaker. The creation trios physical forms are never, in any way whatsoever, implied or even suggested to be weaker than their true forms. There’s literally no difference between them, besides one version obviously being the conceptual abstractions and the other being their physical avatars that they use for interacting with the multiverse.

The only reason given for nerfing the Avatars consists of “bad showings” when that has nothing to do with them being narratively weaker and has everything to do with, at worst, inconsistencies with their power. Without taking into account them being blown out of proportion with whatever’s considered “bad” and blatantly ignoring concepts like AP being a thing.

 

[Hypertornado099]

This thread is going nowhere, everyone is off topic. How about we discuss this in the general discussion thread?

 

[Arceus0x]

This thread is going nowhere, everyone is off topic. How about we discuss this in the general discussion thread?

That will go even further nowhere. We either put this issue down here or we don't.

 

[Keeweed]

“A light flutter of its wings causes houses to to blow apart. Then flapping its wings causes 40-day storms.”
The difference between these two is literally thousands of times man. There is literally nothing about flapping wings is innately causal at all.

“I already noted this out earlier. The protagonist simply training up their team over the course of the story”

Not to the point they defeat themselves times infinity. Growing generically stronger doesn’t mean “it makes sense when they fight themselves times infinite power”. If the creation trio is fighting seriously they would just have your existence stop so the clearly innately aren’t. That’s in character, that’s what they did to Cyrus. If they don’t like you they delete you on the spot.

 

[Hypertornado099]

That will go even further nowhere. We either put this issue down here or we don't.

I meant the topic everyone was discussing above, the CT thing