Muzan Kibutsuji (King of Demons) Vs Ken Kaneki (King of Ghouls) (Demon Slayer Vs Tokyo Ghoul) [14-4-3]

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Do yall have a vote yet

 

[Bimbitesthedust]

No, not really. Muzan's shockwave targets the nerves and sends them out of control.

Ok question just to make sure. from what Im seeing Kaneki has an enhanced resistance to Biological Manipulation, down to the Cellular/Genetic level. @NikHelton or anyone else whos knowledgeable on the potency of Bio manip in both Muzan and Kaneki but does Muzan show Bio Manip on that level?

 

[Bimbitesthedust]

Do yall have a vote yet

Revoked my vote to see the arguments for both

Still holding on to it

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Ok question just to make sure. from what Im seeing Kaneki has an enhanced resistance to Biological Manipulation, down to the Cellular/Genetic level. @NikHelton or anyone else whos knowledgeable on the potency of Bio manip in both Muzan and Kaneki but does Muzan show Bio Manip on that level?

theres 11 pages of yap about bio hax

-King of Ghouls vs King of Demons- [12/4/6] - GRACE

Speed Equalized; Kaneki (Post-Dragon) - At least 91 Kilotons of TNT and Class T, realizes its full potential. Muzan (Battle Form/Healthy) - At least 117 Kilotons of TNT and Class 50, Nakime is in the Infinite Castle. Kaneki has prior knowledge of basic physiology of demons.; Starting distance...

vsbattles.com

 

[Kavopaco]

Im voting Muzan for now. His wide arrange of possible wincons just seem like too much ngl, not to mention Muzan can relay his prior knowledge of Kaneki to all kizuki by telepathy, making it really difficult for them not to have a plan or smt. Tho i will say, their durability being so low is a major advantage for kaneki. I could see him winning some scenarios if having the opportunity to adapt too much.

 

[NikHelton]

Assuming Castorice keeps speed as equalized...

This fundamentally does not mean anything when the battlefield's location will be Infinity Castle. Any range Kaneki gains will be reset as Nakime will simply teleport him to whenever she pleases

Infinity Castle doesn't need to pull Kaneki in, or even use tatami sliding doors.

Nakime can warp the space around Kaneki to force him into the Pocket Dimension. Nothing he can do to avoid that.

The area above them was still not part of the castle. He still had plenty of room to move around the battlefield, which he did very well.

This is assuming that Kaneki or Kague effectively can get anywhere near Hantengu or Doma to do this.

The Kizuki are assuredly going to be inside of the Infinity Castle. Although if they aren't, Inverse Square Law and Energy Dissipation. Depending on how far away Doma and Hantengu when Kaneki does his shockwave (I assume this is what you mean by "AOE attack"), the two will receive less damage than they would have if they were at point blank range. Hantengu's main body will be getting further and further away from the battle and therefore Kaneki, so Hantengu is fine.

The Dragon Kagune was turned into a puddle even at 200 meters, so they will die even if they are further away.

Doma's the only real one at risk here. But this is not good for Kaneki either. If Doma is close to Kaneki, Kaneki will assuredly be hit with Ice that is -196. This will instantly freeze Kaneki and drastically restrict his movements and options. This will make him incredibly easy to kill by any of the other Kizuki. If Doma is away from Kaneki, Doma survives casually due to Inverse Square Law and Energy Dissipation.

Kanao was able to resist this. Kaneki, who starts with a kakuja and will have the advantage in speed, also uses a shockwave whenever he senses something is wrong.

Doma can actually play both scenarios at once without any of the risk due to his mikos. He can summon at least six children at a time, and the kids wield the same strength in Ice Based abilities as Doma. Doma can easily swarm Kaneki with multiple ice mikos and freeze him to death, while keeping himself safe at a distance to avoid counterattacks from Kaneki. In addition, they record information for Doma's later use, so the first time Kaneki does a shockwave, Nakime will be prepared to protect the Kizuki from another shockwave by either teleporting the Kizuki into the Infinity Castle, or Kaneki out of the Infinity Castle.

Kaneki just doesn't get into Castle

This requires Muzan to continually summon and feed Kaneki fodder demons. This is not happening.

This is what can happen to the lower Moons and to those like Kyogaku

Actually, the Kizuki can escape the shockwave (this is what I assume when you say "omni-directional attack"). They can clear 400 meters in a 0.33 seconds (Mach 3.53) thanks to Travel Speed. Shockwaves normally move at Mach 2. Safe to say that the Kizuki can react to and out-speed Kaneki's shockwave without issue.

I wonder how Muzan's shockwaves hit the Demon Slayers then? Let's not forget that attack speed scales. The shockwave instantly destroyed the Dragon's blitz that was suppressing Kaneki's MHS+

How big is this stat increase?

Possibility of one-shotting someone who physically suppressed you with a page earlier

Gyokko will teleport away using pots.

Kaneki just destroys them with shockwaves. I don't remember Gyokko creating them out of nowhere.

Hantengu will be nowhere near the battlefield.

So he won't be dangerous for Kaneki.

Doma will either freeze the attack entirely or be away from the battlefield. Pick your poison.

Before he tries to leave he will be destroyed

The only ones at risk here are Kokushibo and Akaza. Nakime can bail them out by teleporting inside of the Infinity Castle, or teleporting them away from the attack.

However, they will have to return to Kaneki to continue the fight.

 

[NikHelton]

No, not really. Muzan's shockwave targets the nerves and sends them out of control.

Wow, so is electricity. Just incredible.

 

[NikHelton]

Ok question just to make sure. from what Im seeing Kaneki has an enhanced resistance to Biological Manipulation, down to the Cellular/Genetic level. @NikHelton or anyone else whos knowledgeable on the potency of Bio manip in both Muzan and Kaneki but does Muzan show Bio Manip on that level?

In the last vote, Kaneki simply resisted it.

 

[NikHelton]

Anyway, nice to talk to you again. I didn't have the energy to come here because of work

 

[Arkenis]

muzan fra

 

[Jaynic1]

Infinity Castle doesn't need to pull Kaneki in, or even use tatami sliding doors.

Nakime can warp the space around Kaneki to force him into the Pocket Dimension. Nothing he can do to avoid that.

In your gif

only the bottom is warped, you can still see the roof of the building above them. So unless nakine can warp omnidirectionally kaneki will always have something to latch on to.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

In your gif

only the bottom is warped, you can still see the roof of the building above them. So unless nakine can warp omnidirectionally kaneki will always have something to latch on to.

I mean if this helps, his IF section is updated

• Spatial Manipulation& BFR (By controlling Nakime remotely, he can freely control the entire Infinity Fortress Dimension and trap others into it. Manipulated the Infinity Fortress in order for Tanjiro to fall to his death and blocked him off. Pushed Sanemi and Obanai out of the Infinity Fortress)
  • Teleportation (By controlling Nakime remotely, he can teleport himself or Demons into, across, or teleport them outside of the Infinity Fortress)
  • Portal Creation (By controlling Nakime remotely, he can summon portals in various different form such as a tatami sliding door that can spawn in any direction or giant gateways)
  • Gravity Manipulation (By controlling Nakime remotely, he can manipulate the gravity for individual beings inside of the Infinity Fortress)
  • Limited Telekinesis (By controlling Nakime remotely, he can make objects in the Infinity Fortress hover in mid-air)

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

I should really add this scan too

 

[Jaynic1]

I mean if this helps, his IF section is updated

• Spatial Manipulation& BFR (By controlling Nakime remotely, he can freely control the entire Infinity Fortress Dimension and trap others into it. Manipulated the Infinity Fortress in order for Tanjiro to fall to his death and blocked him off. Pushed Sanemi and Obanai out of the Infinity Fortress)
  • Teleportation (By controlling Nakime remotely, he can teleport himself or Demons into, across, or teleport them outside of the Infinity Fortress)
  • Portal Creation (By controlling Nakime remotely, he can summon portals in various different form such as a tatami sliding door that can spawn in any direction or giant gateways)
  • Gravity Manipulation (By controlling Nakime remotely, he can manipulate the gravity for individual beings inside of the Infinity Fortress)
  • Limited Telekinesis (By controlling Nakime remotely, he can make objects in the Infinity Fortress hover in mid-air)

Ye that helps, i dont think he'll avoid it if she opens multiple portals covering him

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Kaneki FRA

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Ye that helps, i dont think he'll avoid it if she opens multiple portals covering him

Yeah his old justifications for IF control was really bad

 

[Arkenis]

I should really add this scan too

"I should really add this scan" and its just Muzan's butt

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

"I should really add this scan" and its just Muzan's butt

Female Muzan ass. Big difference. Huge some might say

 

[Catbowtie]

Unlike Kokushibo and Gyotaro, whose area attacks are slash-spam, Kaneki's attack is an omnidirectional shockwave that turns the enemy into a puddle even from hundreds of meters away. This is definitely a significant advantage.

Can you send scans for this please? Regardless, the Kizuki out-speed the shockwave.

Kaneki simply cannot get inside due to his superior speed and his LS. The gravity of the castle simply cannot pull him inside.

The Infinity Castle will surround Kaneki, and he will be inside of it. Gravity and LS does not matter. Speed is

It's not like these attacks instantly kill Kanao, who has no regeneration or resistance to temperatures (I'm talking about her body, not her suit). As soon as Kaneki feels the effects of cryokinesis, he uses an AOE attack that kills Doma.

This is assuming Doma is anywhere near Kaneki when he does the shockwave, which he won't. Additionally, Doma's mist does quickly kill people. Kanao successfully avoided direct contact with Doma's ice through the fight. When she was hit by the mist, she was rendered helpless from brief exposure. Kaneki does not have resistance to ice either, so I do not know why you brought up Kanao's lack of resistance to support your argument that Kaneki can feasibly do anything when it happens to him.

Still gets hit by AOE and loses due to speed gap. In the end, Gyokko couldn't use it on serious opponents.

Gyokko teleports away from AOE. His Molted Form is a stat amplification.

No, you probably got something wrong. Kaneki has a blitz amp that is many times greater than his blitz amp, allowing him to bypass his opponents' reactions and make them think he disappeared or teleported away (Shinohara literally says Kaneki disappeared in the blink of an eye)

Can you provide scans for this please?

Kaneki simply moves in three dimensions thanks to his kagune, which can stretch to a huge length and does not fall into BFR.

The kagune is also an incredibly flexible weapon capable of transformation. Kaneki will simply grow another tentacle, which will repel Muzan's attack

As said before, Nakime does not need to transport via doors.

Unfortunately, he destroys them with one hit because the demons' body durability is 8-B and they will turn into dust from one attack and only their neck will remain. I don't remember demons being able to regenerate from one neck, but even so, thanks to the kakuji amplifier that allows you to one-shot the enemy that was suppressing you earlier, he destroys even the neck of the demons.

AP is not DC.

An alternative term for Destructive Capacity which has more direct meaning: The Destructive Capacity that an attack is equivalent to. A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces. As such it isn't proof of a low attack potency, if a character's attacks only cause a small amount of destruction.

Unless Kaneki covers a demon's entire body with an attack, they are surviving and regenerating rather casually.

The point I am making here is that Kaneki will not completely paste demon's body with one punch, as it is not assumed Kaneki can perform the equivalent Destructive Capacity as his Attack Potency without having feats of doing so (excluding a shockwave, of course). Instead, it is a very strong punch localized in a small area without the principle of conservation of energy dictating that energy will across disperse across the demon's body.

Already answered above. We've never seen Doma instantly freeze someone comparable and that he can be hundreds of meters away from his BA, so he gets hit by the shockwave and dies

This is not representative of the whole picture. The reason Doma has never shown to completely freeze people is because of limited screen time, and his freezing was repeatedly avoided. We have various examples that demonstrate Doma has the capability of freezing someone entirely. I do not know why you added "comparable." Are you talking about "comparable" AP-wise? AP does not help someone resist Ice Manipulation, especially in Demon Slayer.

Kaneki can absorb the lower Moons as well, since Muzan will summon them all. Or Kaneki can win before Muzan summons the Moons.

This will not be happening. If all of the Kizuki are there at once, they will overwhelm Kaneki with their combined abilities and numbers advantage. How do you suppose Kaneki can win before Muzan summons the moons?

He only adapts to the enemy and his fighting spirit. But he will not be able to leave the 250 meter kill zone, especially when the enemy is faster than him and has AD

No. Akaza's Compass Needle will always make him relative to Kaneki until Kaneki can become 7-A.

Both sides scale above their value. However, Kakuja gives a booster that allows one-shotting a superior enemy.

"Superior enemy" by how much? Can you provide scans for this please?

Kaneki has the ability to detach his kagune to create traps, attack from underground, and create cages and traps from his kagune. He only needs to grab an opponent to trap them and turn them into a puddle with LS.

How will Kaneki effectively do this when he is being bombarded by multiple deadly opponents at once? One slip up will kill him.

 

[Machmatej]

Unlike Kokushibo and Gyotaro, whose area attacks are slash-spam, Kaneki's attack is an omnidirectional shockwave that turns the enemy into a puddle even from hundreds of meters away. This is definitely a significant advantage.

Muzan can do that too. And Muzan's shockwaves, although not necessarily destructive, can stretch on for several kilometers, outside of the city they were fighting in, and can cause seizures and internal injuries to those who were too close.

Kaneki simply cannot get inside due to his superior speed and his LS. The gravity of the castle simply cannot pull him inside.

Last I checked, Kaneki doesn't defy gravity. Although Nakime can pull things inside with trap doors, the giant portal in the video I shared didn't do that, and they just fell naturally, as they can't fly.

It's not like these attacks instantly kill Kanao, who has no regeneration or resistance to temperatures (I'm talking about her body, not her suit). As soon as Kaneki feels the effects of cryokinesis, he uses an AOE attack that kills Doma.

Kanao was immediately frozen when she couldn't find a method to disperse his ice clouds or move fast enough, and this was against the ice of a poisoned Doma, drugged with 700x the lethal dosage of poison a demon can intake. A bloodlusted Doma would be far stronger, and wouldn't hold this back. As for the AOE attack. Doma either dodges, blocks or regenerates, if Kaneki isn't adapted.

Kaneki resists the electricity that was causing Owl to convulse. He won't even feel that they tried to use something on him.

It's not just electricity, it's considered energy projection and you need a specific resistance to it. But since his profile also says electricity manipulation, let's just say Kaneki resists.

Still gets hit by AOE and loses due to speed gap. In the end, Gyokko couldn't use it on serious opponents.

Speed is equalized, and Kaneki's speed buff with Kakuja isn't properly quantified on his profile. Still, Gyokko can also just teleport to Kaneki via Nakime or his pots.

No, you probably got something wrong. Kaneki has a blitz amp that is many times greater than his blitz amp, allowing him to bypass his opponents' reactions and make them think he disappeared or teleported away (Shinohara literally says Kaneki disappeared in the blink of an eye)

The only speed boost mentioned on his profile is with the Kakuja, which is unquantified. Even so, the demons here also have speed amps or forms of precognition of their own.

Equalized speed does not cancel out blitz amp. This is why hashira and slayers have a good advantage in battles where speed is equalized because they blitz thanks to the multi-layered speed amp.

Demons also either have blitz amps, forms of precognition, analytical prediction, and/or enhanced senses to close that gap.

Kaneki simply moves in three dimensions thanks to his kagune, which can stretch to a huge length and does not fall into BFR.

The kagune is also an incredibly flexible weapon capable of transformation. Kaneki will simply grow another tentacle, which will repel Muzan's attack

Muzan can grow more tentacles or blades of his own. That's kind of his thing. He can grow up to eight at a time, probably more.

Unfortunately, he destroys them with one hit because the demons' body durability is 8-B and they will turn into dust from one attack and only their neck will remain. I don't remember demons being able to regenerate from one neck, but even so, thanks to the kakuji amplifier that allows you to one-shot the enemy that was suppressing you earlier, he destroys even the neck of the demons.

True, though demons can also just dodge or intercept any attacks. Their AP is still over Kaneki's (before adapting), and I don't think his amp can quantifiably increase his strength by 10+ Kilotons.

Already answered above. We've never seen Doma instantly freeze someone comparable and that he can be hundreds of meters away from his BA, so he gets hit by the shockwave and dies

Doma has shown freezing people near instantly in a weakened form. And since Doma was willing to go where Akaza died while he left his clones to fight Kanao and Inosuke, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say he can be a considerable distance away from his own clones.

Kaneki can absorb the lower Moons as well, since Muzan will summon them all. Or Kaneki can win before Muzan summons the Moons.

Unlikely. Kaneki would need to use his Kakuja to get his blitz amp (which isn't even considered a blitz amp on his profile btw). Muzan would sense this and use the IC after seeing that. If he can't get Kaneki, he can just teleport himself away and let his demons do the work. Even IF Muzan gets blized, Kaneki still wouldn't be able to kill him properly due to his regeneration. Remember his encounter with yoriichi?

He only adapts to the enemy and his fighting spirit. But he will not be able to leave the 250 meter kill zone, especially when the enemy is faster than him and has AD

Yes, Akaza adapts to battle spirit. Everything has battle spirit. The only way to counter this is to have no emotion, no intention, essentially no will. If Kaneki somehow fits that criterium, then Akaza won't adapt to his speed

Kaneki has the ability to detach his kagune to create traps, attack from underground, and create cages and traps from his kagune. He only needs to grab an opponent to trap them and turn them into a puddle with LS.

Almost everyone here would sense those traps. Everyone has some form of extrasensory perception, precognition, enhanced senses, or other abilities to foresee that.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

It's not just electricity, it's considered energy projection and you need a specific resistance to it. But since his profile also says electricity manipulation, let's just say Kaneki resists.

Just gonna say this now. Tanjiro Nezuko and Genya all got hit by lightning and none of them got a seizure like that so the hax isnt from the electricity

 

[Machmatej]

Just gonna say this now. Tanjiro Nezuko and Genya all got hit by lightning and none of them got a seizure like that so the hax isnt from the electricity

was just gonna say this

 

[Machmatej]

btw i'm voting Muzan if that wasnt clear

 

[Ebihara]

Ken FRA

 

[Catbowtie]

What reasons convinced you?

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Ye that helps, i dont think he'll avoid it if she opens multiple portals covering him

Just realizing it now. The teleportation ability will actually pop off so hard if he does end up getting BFR'd into the fortress. Muzan and Nakime can just keep teleporting the kizuki to kaneki or away from kaneki's abilities which is REALLY DANGEROUS

 

[NikHelton]

What reasons convinced you?

Read Chapter 125 of TG:Re to understand why.

 

[Arkansalter2]

I thought this was that other muzan for a second.
Anyways Kaneki FRA.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

I thought this was that other muzan for a second.
Anyways Kaneki FRA.

What other muzan

 

[Catbowtie]

I thought this was that other muzan for a second.
Anyways Kaneki FRA.

What reasons convinced you?

 

[Arkansalter2]

Wait I'm dumb. Retract my vote.

Does Kaneki have a way around the insta regen or the Domain Expansion?

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Wait I'm dumb. Retract my vote.

Does Kaneki have a way around the insta regen or the Domain Expansion?

It’s the same match as last time. What change is that Muzan’s IF justifications got updated and now has the twelve kizuki As a standard equipment summoning ability

 

[Catbowtie]

Does Kaneki have a way around the insta regen

Shockwave, but you need to read the arguments about whether or not it's an end all be all.

the Domain Expansion?

No.

In addition, the Kizuki are here, which are 7 more combatants Kaneki has to fight.

 

[Arkansalter2]

Right. Whelp Castle and GGs I guess. Voting Muzan.

 

[Machmatej]

In addition, the Kizuki are here, which are 7 more combatants Kaneki has to fight.

One of which can one-shot him , another can paralyze him, and a third can just freeze him (no ice res).

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

One of which can one-shot him , another can paralyze him, and a third can just freeze him (no ice res).

Kaneki can resist Paralysis (unless you mean the seizure shockwave then probably not)

 

[Machmatej]

Kaneki can resist Paralysis (unless you mean the seizure shockwave then probably not)

i meant enmu putting him to sleep. but muzan's shockwave works too

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Wait I'm dumb. Retract my vote.

Does Kaneki have a way around the insta regen or the Domain Expansion?

Yes, ghould literally poison each other with their kagune to make healing more difficult, and the Infinity Castle isn't an instant win-con. Kill Nakime and the castle spits you out. Kaneki is a far smarter fighter than Muzan and he is going to notice that whenever the one-eye girl strings her guitar shit goes sideways.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Yes, ghould literally poison each other with their kagune to make healing more difficult, and the Infinity Castle isn't an instant win-con. Kill Nakime and the castle spits you out. Kaneki is a far smarter fighter than Muzan and he is going to notice that whenever the one-eye girl strings her guitar shit goes sideways.

Yeah good luck trying to find Nakime in that labyrinth

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

i meant enmu putting him to sleep. but muzan's shockwave works too

Kaneki has literally resisted the exact same attack from Arima