Machmatej
He/Him- 1,642
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payback, bruh. a kny thread is getting derailed to mha nowCan yall talk about the fight. The Shigaraki vs avengers thread got derailed from that to demon slayer too
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Muzan Kibutsuji (King of Demons) Vs Ken Kaneki (King of Ghouls) (Demon Slayer Vs Tokyo Ghoul) [14-4-3]
- Thread starter CastoriceTheFifth
- Start date
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Back then it was a 1v1 battle (2v1 if you count Nakime). Now Muzan has the numbers advantage. So it would be wise not to equalize the speed
Machmatej
He/Him- 1,642
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then doesn't kaneki just blitz and eventually one-shot everyone? how's that any fairer?
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Not really, Its 117 Kilotons to 91 Kiltons, and the demons have numbers advantage. Also, The Upper Moons aren't just going to stand around and do nothing. Well, maybe Douma, but the others will probably and do something.
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- Thread starter
- #127
Btw the original original matchup was a full on blitz stomp due to how much he upscaled from Mach something something
Catbowtie
Any/All- 4,079
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4x is enough for a speed blitz.
Doma is blood-lusted lol
Machmatej
He/Him- 1,642
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91 Kilotons but Kaneki is allowed to grow up to 956 Megatons. I don't know how fast is growth is, but it will eventually become a one-shot difference.
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Its not immediately. Remember, Kaneki has to take the hits and survive for his AD to kick in.
Machmatej
He/Him- 1,642
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A 3-4x gap in speed is considered blitzing. And if he's 4x faster than everyone there, then I don't think it matters how many demons there are considering he still blitzes every single one. And Muzan himself has to summon them, or teleport him to IC.
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All the lower moons have ass AP anyways and can’t damage Kaneki
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I don't usually argue in regards to what is a blitz or not. Cuz it's kinda subjective. And it also depends on starting distance, because if means Kaneki can move 4 meters in the time it takes Muzan to move 1. But if they start hundreds of meters away, and Muzan has literally like, an entire army on his side and can do stuff like BFR Kaneki, then that speed advantage doesn't matter much. It is absolutely a big speed gap tho. Just one that can be overcome. I don't have an opinion on if speed should be unequalized tho.
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Upper Moon can. Especially the Top 3.
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Then it proceeds to RE AD arguments.
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I mean I doubt the Upper Moon are going to go at him one at a time.
Machmatej
He/Him- 1,642
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It's not in-character for muzan to summon them off the bat. Even if he does, he wouldn't summon every demon at the same time. It's more realistic for him to just throw him in the IC, in which case, if muzan doesn't summon them, they can be who knows how far apart. And doing allat is gonna be hard when the guy you're hunting is 4 times faster than you.
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Then he does what he does with Yorriichi. Self-Implodes and runs away.
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Will a 4x difference be enough for a blitz?
It will only be an advantage.
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Unironically this is probably the best summary of the matchup
Machmatej
He/Him- 1,642
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Then the fight ends right there
Machmatej
He/Him- 1,642
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That's actually the bare minimum for a blitz
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- #145
I really don’t want to do Kaneki’s sides job to defend him but the dude has a legitimate win con to RE AD fast enough and one shot them.
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Well, okay, I haven't participated in threads in a while and thanks to @CastoriceTheFifth for inviting me.
The one who confuses me the most is Enma. He is the one who can turn the tide of the battle. Otherwise, the results are unlikely to change and he will probably kill him before he activates the ability.
1) Kaneki has an advantage in attack range and much better control of the battlefield. In the battle with strong opponents, he uses kakuja. Kaneki's final kakuja has a long scaling chain from Scolopendra's half-kakuja, which gave him blitz amp, so he will gain an advantage in speed even before taking damage.
2) Kaneki is unlikely to get caught in BFR due to his heightened senses, kagune and LS superiority. The castle simply won't be able to pull him in if Kaneki gets caught on something with his Class G.
3) Kaneki knows about demon regeneration, so he will try to destroy them with one hit. Thus, Hantengu will not realize his potential, because he will be completely destroyed. Doma will probably suffer the same fate and will be destroyed by an AOE attack with a radius greater than 200 meters before his creokinesis begins to bear fruit.
4) Kaneki will also be able to absorb ordinary demons with his kagune to replenish stamina, using his LS.
5) Akaza's compass in close combat will be useless when the enemy uses an omnidirectional attack, and you do not have enough speed to escape the battlefield.
6) The stat increase from the kakuji will still be strong enough to allow Kaneki to take demon attacks until his AD takes effect.
7) The demons' low durability is still a pain in the ass for them because Kaneki will be able to turn them into a pool of blood with his LS Class G vs LS Class 50
My vote is for Kaneki
The one who confuses me the most is Enma. He is the one who can turn the tide of the battle. Otherwise, the results are unlikely to change and he will probably kill him before he activates the ability.
1) Kaneki has an advantage in attack range and much better control of the battlefield. In the battle with strong opponents, he uses kakuja. Kaneki's final kakuja has a long scaling chain from Scolopendra's half-kakuja, which gave him blitz amp, so he will gain an advantage in speed even before taking damage.
2) Kaneki is unlikely to get caught in BFR due to his heightened senses, kagune and LS superiority. The castle simply won't be able to pull him in if Kaneki gets caught on something with his Class G.
3) Kaneki knows about demon regeneration, so he will try to destroy them with one hit. Thus, Hantengu will not realize his potential, because he will be completely destroyed. Doma will probably suffer the same fate and will be destroyed by an AOE attack with a radius greater than 200 meters before his creokinesis begins to bear fruit.
4) Kaneki will also be able to absorb ordinary demons with his kagune to replenish stamina, using his LS.
5) Akaza's compass in close combat will be useless when the enemy uses an omnidirectional attack, and you do not have enough speed to escape the battlefield.
6) The stat increase from the kakuji will still be strong enough to allow Kaneki to take demon attacks until his AD takes effect.
7) The demons' low durability is still a pain in the ass for them because Kaneki will be able to turn them into a pool of blood with his LS Class G vs LS Class 50
My vote is for Kaneki
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You seemed to vote for Muzan, but you liked my comment for Kaneki.
Have you changed your mind?
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might revoke my vote for Muzan because these are some points
Anonymous_Learner
He/Him- 6,773
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yes. Yes I have.
Ken FRA
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@Catbowtie are you gonna do this thing where you take 50 years to respond
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also I think this is the first time I see the city block durability be mentioned in a vs battle for KNY demons
Machmatej
He/Him- 1,642
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Finally.
Also Gyokko unironically one-taps and turns him into a fish.
Attack range is comparable, since Kokushibo's and Gyutaro's attacks can also go up to hundreds of meters, alongside Koko's superior AOE and danmaku attacks (though I'll admit Gyutaro's fodder). And, no matter how you cut it, Kaneki doesn't have better battlefield control when Nakime can just up make a giant gate to the Infinity Castle (1:38) and let him drop inside. From there, the demons can further establish dominance with AOE attacks, including Doma's ice (which Kaneki can't resist) and Muzan's seizure-inducing shockwaves.
Also Gyokko unironically one-taps and turns him into a fish.
This is equalized speed. And all I see is unquantifiable scaling. Using this logic, Muzan and everyone else here should be up to several blitz tiers above base Mitsuri, who performed the Mach 2000 feat.
LS doesn't really matter here. Like you see in the video I linked above, Nakime can just make a giant portal/gate larger than Kaneki's range and leave nothing for him to grapple onto. Even if Kaneki does manage to latch onto something, Muzan himself can just slice off his kagune or arm. The infinity castle is also his opening move, so Kagune won't have time to adapt to Muzan's AP.
Kaneki doesn't have the AP to one-shot any of the Upper Kizuki (except Gyutaro and Gyokko) unless Muzan decides to summon everyone after Kaneki has adapted (which is unlikely).
Doma is bloodlusted here, so there's no reason why he wouldn't go all out from the start. It's more likely that he'll just spawn a bunch of clones and start spamming techniques with the same output as Doma himself. Kaneki unironically doesn't have resistance to ice or cold temperatures, so even Doma's cold mist attacks would screw him up.
That's if Muzan even decides to summon them. But if he resorts to using Upper Moons, it's highly unlikely he'd even consider summoning NPCs.
Akaza's speed automatically matches his opponent's. And Akaza can also use an omnidirectional attack (Chaotic Blue Afterglow), which would be devastating to Kaneki if he isn't adapted.
Kakuja is an unquantifiable stat increase. If you want to go down that road, just note that the top 3 Moons and Muzan massively upscale from the 117 Kilotons rating. At the very best you can say Kaneki would be comparable, but he still wouldn't be able to adapt before getting blown apart by an endless rain of blood sickles, spears of light, shockwaves, icicles, and moon blades.
LS would only help if he gets close, which plenty of things are preventing.
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- #153
The issue with this is that if Kaneki is going to be a pain to get caught in a BFR then itll just piss off Muzan to summon more and more Demons to swarm him and force him there
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- #154
Btw I didn’t know this but apparently daki has her own BFR lol
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Ok so the win cons from Muzan side are
Enmu: Clones and Sleep hax
Daki: BFR Sleep hax
Gyokko: Transmutation hax and fish spam
Nakime: BFR and Infinity Fortress control
Akaza: Possibly RE AD retaliation???
Douma: Ice BDA and 6 Clones
Muzan: BFR and Infinity fortress control. Possibly Blood Hax like last time?????
Possibly somehow cook his stamina before he RE ADs
Kokushibo is a really good support here as well since hes really really skilled.
Enmu: Clones and Sleep hax
Daki: BFR Sleep hax
Gyokko: Transmutation hax and fish spam
Nakime: BFR and Infinity Fortress control
Akaza: Possibly RE AD retaliation???
Douma: Ice BDA and 6 Clones
Muzan: BFR and Infinity fortress control. Possibly Blood Hax like last time?????
Possibly somehow cook his stamina before he RE ADs
Kokushibo is a really good support here as well since hes really really skilled.
Machmatej
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does kaneki resist muzan's seizure-causing shockwaves? Because if not then that would definitely slow him down significantly.
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Remind me when Kokushibo hit so far, because I remember a maximum of a few dozen meters
Unlike Kokushibo and Gyotaro, whose area attacks are slash-spam, Kaneki's attack is an omnidirectional shockwave that turns the enemy into a puddle even from hundreds of meters away. This is definitely a significant advantage.
Kaneki simply cannot get inside due to his superior speed and his LS. The gravity of the castle simply cannot pull him inside.
It's not like these attacks instantly kill Kanao, who has no regeneration or resistance to temperatures (I'm talking about her body, not her suit). As soon as Kaneki feels the effects of cryokinesis, he uses an AOE attack that kills Doma.
Kaneki resists the electricity that was causing Owl to convulse. He won't even feel that they tried to use something on him.
Still gets hit by AOE and loses due to speed gap. In the end, Gyokko couldn't use it on serious opponents.
No, you probably got something wrong. Kaneki has a blitz amp that is many times greater than his blitz amp, allowing him to bypass his opponents' reactions and make them think he disappeared or teleported away (Shinohara literally says Kaneki disappeared in the blink of an eye)
Equalized speed does not cancel out blitz amp. This is why hashira and slayers have a good advantage in battles where speed is equalized because they blitz thanks to the multi-layered speed amp.
Kaneki simply moves in three dimensions thanks to his kagune, which can stretch to a huge length and does not fall into BFR.
The kagune is also an incredibly flexible weapon capable of transformation. Kaneki will simply grow another tentacle, which will repel Muzan's attack
Unfortunately, he destroys them with one hit because the demons' body durability is 8-B and they will turn into dust from one attack and only their neck will remain. I don't remember demons being able to regenerate from one neck, but even so, thanks to the kakuji amplifier that allows you to one-shot the enemy that was suppressing you earlier, he destroys even the neck of the demons.
Already answered above. We've never seen Doma instantly freeze someone comparable and that he can be hundreds of meters away from his BA, so he gets hit by the shockwave and dies
Kaneki can absorb the lower Moons as well, since Muzan will summon them all. Or Kaneki can win before Muzan summons the Moons.
He only adapts to the enemy and his fighting spirit. But he will not be able to leave the 250 meter kill zone, especially when the enemy is faster than him and has AD
Both sides scale above their value. However, Kakuja gives a booster that allows one-shotting a superior enemy.
Kaneki has the ability to detach his kagune to create traps, attack from underground, and create cages and traps from his kagune. He only needs to grab an opponent to trap them and turn them into a puddle with LS.
Catbowtie
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Assuming Castorice keeps speed as equalized...
Nakime can warp the space around Kaneki to force him into the Pocket Dimension. Nothing he can do to avoid that.
The Kizuki are assuredly going to be inside of the Infinity Castle. Although if they aren't, Inverse Square Law and Energy Dissipation. Depending on how far away Doma and Hantengu when Kaneki does his shockwave (I assume this is what you mean by "AOE attack"), the two will receive less damage than they would have if they were at point blank range. Hantengu's main body will be getting further and further away from the battle and therefore Kaneki, so Hantengu is fine. Doma's the only real one at risk here. But this is not good for Kaneki either. If Doma is close to Kaneki, Kaneki will assuredly be hit with Ice that is -196. This will instantly freeze Kaneki and drastically restrict his movements and options. This will make him incredibly easy to kill by any of the other Kizuki. If Doma is away from Kaneki, Doma survives casually due to Inverse Square Law and Energy Dissipation.
Doma can actually play both scenarios at once without any of the risk due to his mikos. He can summon at least six children at a time, and the kids wield the same strength in Ice Based abilities as Doma. Doma can easily swarm Kaneki with multiple ice mikos and freeze him to death, while keeping himself safe at a distance to avoid counterattacks from Kaneki. In addition, they record information for Doma's later use, so the first time Kaneki does a shockwave, Nakime will be prepared to protect the Kizuki from another shockwave by either teleporting the Kizuki into the Infinity Castle, or Kaneki out of the Infinity Castle.
Gyokko will teleport away using pots.
Hantengu will be nowhere near the battlefield.
Doma will either freeze the attack entirely or be away from the battlefield. Pick your poison.
The only ones at risk here are Kokushibo and Akaza. Nakime can bail them out by teleporting inside of the Infinity Castle, or teleporting them away from the attack.
Reminder for everyone else here, Kaneki will have to effectively attack while also fending off 6 other Kizuki, all of which have access to abilities that are incredibly lethal to Kaneki, due to the fact it leaves Kaneki wide open for multiple attacks. Enmu can easily shut down Kaneki by putting him to sleep. Gyokko can encase Kaneki in water. Doma, as I've described, is his own entire can of worms. There is simply not a situation where Kaneki can freely act without getting hit by an ability which renders him incapable of protecting himself, and then dying.
This fundamentally does not mean anything when the battlefield's location will be Infinity Castle. Any range Kaneki gains will be reset as Nakime will simply teleport him to whenever she pleases
Infinity Castle doesn't need to pull Kaneki in, or even use tatami sliding doors.
Nakime can warp the space around Kaneki to force him into the Pocket Dimension. Nothing he can do to avoid that.
This is assuming that Kaneki or Kague effectively can get anywhere near Hantengu or Doma to do this.
The Kizuki are assuredly going to be inside of the Infinity Castle. Although if they aren't, Inverse Square Law and Energy Dissipation. Depending on how far away Doma and Hantengu when Kaneki does his shockwave (I assume this is what you mean by "AOE attack"), the two will receive less damage than they would have if they were at point blank range. Hantengu's main body will be getting further and further away from the battle and therefore Kaneki, so Hantengu is fine. Doma's the only real one at risk here. But this is not good for Kaneki either. If Doma is close to Kaneki, Kaneki will assuredly be hit with Ice that is -196. This will instantly freeze Kaneki and drastically restrict his movements and options. This will make him incredibly easy to kill by any of the other Kizuki. If Doma is away from Kaneki, Doma survives casually due to Inverse Square Law and Energy Dissipation.
Doma can actually play both scenarios at once without any of the risk due to his mikos. He can summon at least six children at a time, and the kids wield the same strength in Ice Based abilities as Doma. Doma can easily swarm Kaneki with multiple ice mikos and freeze him to death, while keeping himself safe at a distance to avoid counterattacks from Kaneki. In addition, they record information for Doma's later use, so the first time Kaneki does a shockwave, Nakime will be prepared to protect the Kizuki from another shockwave by either teleporting the Kizuki into the Infinity Castle, or Kaneki out of the Infinity Castle.
This requires Muzan to continually summon and feed Kaneki fodder demons. This is not happening.
Actually, the Kizuki can escape the shockwave (this is what I assume when you say "omni-directional attack"). They can clear 400 meters in a 0.33 seconds (Mach 3.53) thanks to Travel Speed. Shockwaves normally move at Mach 2. Safe to say that the Kizuki can react to and out-speed Kaneki's shockwave without issue.
How big is this stat increase?
None of the demons will easily be caught in Kague.
Gyokko will teleport away using pots.
Hantengu will be nowhere near the battlefield.
Doma will either freeze the attack entirely or be away from the battlefield. Pick your poison.
The only ones at risk here are Kokushibo and Akaza. Nakime can bail them out by teleporting inside of the Infinity Castle, or teleporting them away from the attack.
Reminder for everyone else here, Kaneki will have to effectively attack while also fending off 6 other Kizuki, all of which have access to abilities that are incredibly lethal to Kaneki, due to the fact it leaves Kaneki wide open for multiple attacks. Enmu can easily shut down Kaneki by putting him to sleep. Gyokko can encase Kaneki in water. Doma, as I've described, is his own entire can of worms. There is simply not a situation where Kaneki can freely act without getting hit by an ability which renders him incapable of protecting himself, and then dying.
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Yes, he does
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