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About this, I think I can give later some evidence about the VM here, as that's a good point.
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DDLC Concept Manip Removal
- Thread starter FriendOfTheTeaParty
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Ok so.
After that Monika deletes the game itself through deleting all of its files, it was estabilished that the VM contains the game, and that is necessary to fully reset it to bring back the game. Note that it's somehow not the same as resetting the in-game computer, as the data collected in the PC stays the same at each reset (I mean that's the goal of the game, resetting the game over and over to get different results until you get 100% of achievements), other than the fact that from the computer you can access the Side Stories, an alternate version of DDLC which is stated to different right because of it being a clone of VM1 (which contains the main DDLC) and even confirmed from WoG to be an alternate timeline entirely.
Now, the scans mention that the VM is damaged and needs to be reset, but the thing is that it mentions modified entities, environments and data need to be restored at their original state, yes. But remember that a Virtual Machine is basically an emulated computer inside another computer, they even mention the next project after DDLC as VM2 (that being Project Libitina), which wouldn't really make sense if it's just a game (as in a simple folder with a .exe file), and that's something actually stated in the game! The VM was never supposed to be a videogame, it was only disguised as such to make it funnier, and the VMs are potrayed as completely separated things that should not be connected at all, similar to how irl ones work.
This matters because Monika is stated to manipulate the actual VM in itself rather than just the game, and that she does it on a Kernel level, which basically manages everything inside a PC, like the software-hardware interactions and preventing conflicts in the program, and right because of this, without a Kernel a PC cannot work. Meaning that imo, in terms of "layers":
In-game PC > VM 1 > DDLC
I believe this can still mean that the script here still does count as a "concept that serves as the fundamental building block of reality", given that it's a .rpy file that is together with actual fundamental ones for the game to even function together with the menu or the graphic interface, and obviously more important than singular .png images or character files (where Information Manipulation just defines the information on said script instead). And in fact, the game just stops and is stuck with that single letter, and hard resetting the VM to bring back its settings to the initial ones is required to make the game manageable again.
This actually made me realize that Monika never truly deleted the script in Act 3, she only mentions it's broken like it was in Act 2, and that was evident with the log back in Act 2 still being there, just really weird. But I do not think this changes much, but it probably strengthens the idea that the script in DDLC is a concept that makes up reality, as she mentions that breaking the script in Act 3 made time "not pass anymore", with her later repeating it does not exist anymore, or the fact that she can rewind time to make events in the story change (example being changing Yuri from lying about making tea while she instead went to cut herself to actually make tea), and she later mentions to be capable of changing the script to achieve a similar effect (that being making Yuri drink coffee instead of tea), or mentions that her creator is a "god" that put her life in a scripted play, something that is actually repeated from the MES.
AKA my argument here would be that:
I do not think the VM and the game are the same thing, actually. Both are made of datas as estabilished in both the Files and Emails, but there is something that needs to be said:
After that Monika deletes the game itself through deleting all of its files, it was estabilished that the VM contains the game, and that is necessary to fully reset it to bring back the game. Note that it's somehow not the same as resetting the in-game computer, as the data collected in the PC stays the same at each reset (I mean that's the goal of the game, resetting the game over and over to get different results until you get 100% of achievements), other than the fact that from the computer you can access the Side Stories, an alternate version of DDLC which is stated to different right because of it being a clone of VM1 (which contains the main DDLC) and even confirmed from WoG to be an alternate timeline entirely.
Now, the scans mention that the VM is damaged and needs to be reset, but the thing is that it mentions modified entities, environments and data need to be restored at their original state, yes. But remember that a Virtual Machine is basically an emulated computer inside another computer, they even mention the next project after DDLC as VM2 (that being Project Libitina), which wouldn't really make sense if it's just a game (as in a simple folder with a .exe file), and that's something actually stated in the game! The VM was never supposed to be a videogame, it was only disguised as such to make it funnier, and the VMs are potrayed as completely separated things that should not be connected at all, similar to how irl ones work.
This matters because Monika is stated to manipulate the actual VM in itself rather than just the game, and that she does it on a Kernel level, which basically manages everything inside a PC, like the software-hardware interactions and preventing conflicts in the program, and right because of this, without a Kernel a PC cannot work. Meaning that imo, in terms of "layers":
In-game PC > VM 1 > DDLC
The script is something that Monika can directly alter/change and destroy, btw. I do not how how much of a "building block of reality" is the fact that DDLC is built upon RenPy, and the last files deleted from Monika are all .rpy ones (script, menu, gui and screens), which are the basics of the actual game itself.
I believe this can still mean that the script here still does count as a "concept that serves as the fundamental building block of reality", given that it's a .rpy file that is together with actual fundamental ones for the game to even function together with the menu or the graphic interface, and obviously more important than singular .png images or character files (where Information Manipulation just defines the information on said script instead). And in fact, the game just stops and is stuck with that single letter, and hard resetting the VM to bring back its settings to the initial ones is required to make the game manageable again.
This actually made me realize that Monika never truly deleted the script in Act 3, she only mentions it's broken like it was in Act 2, and that was evident with the log back in Act 2 still being there, just really weird. But I do not think this changes much, but it probably strengthens the idea that the script in DDLC is a concept that makes up reality, as she mentions that breaking the script in Act 3 made time "not pass anymore", with her later repeating it does not exist anymore, or the fact that she can rewind time to make events in the story change (example being changing Yuri from lying about making tea while she instead went to cut herself to actually make tea), and she later mentions to be capable of changing the script to achieve a similar effect (that being making Yuri drink coffee instead of tea), or mentions that her creator is a "god" that put her life in a scripted play, something that is actually repeated from the MES.
AKA my argument here would be that:
- Monika does not manipulate just the files, but the very datas that make up the PC where the game runs, including the very operative system in the form of the Kernel.
- The Script is one of the most fundamental files that make up the game and that is essential for it to work, and it has shown to be able to change the basis of reality, as it can be altered to change the very course of time, including its events, or to straight up delete time entirely
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The script being a concept type 2 would work then, but not for the time since it's the byproduct of the script. It's kinda niche to say that well, the script themselves are limited to plot + information only without it having any correlations to concept whatsoever (Except if it must also be stated to be a concept to qualify, but I don't think that would be the case)
Ignoring the programming terms being used that's always going to haunt me by how graphic they are, I mean the requirement for a type 2 concept is to govern everything within its area of influence and the script governing everything and with each one of them being an universe works to be honest
That being said, cause I don't know why it wouldn't be a type 2 concept when the script shapes everything in the verse with the addition that everything that's shaped is composed of information (type 2) with the script as the plot cause well.. It's a script isn't it? Yeah, I don't necessarily see how IM2 would be enough to even be capable of doing all this (Coming from someone who's familiar enough with how IM2 works) so yeah I disagree with OP.
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Gonna have to disagree with this assessment. Governing and shaping is NOT exclusive to concepts, it's a requirement for a concept but it's not exclusive to concepts. It's just something it does. A file here is just a container that is able to contain fundamental and reality shaping information, so if you have no code in the file, the file governs nothing because the file isn't what governs stuff, it's the code within it that it contains which governs stuff. The script here is also determined by the information since it's still ultimately a file that contains data.
Genuinely none of this is not covered by info type 2. Info type 2 governs and shapes things by being some fundamental and abstract force behind an object that describes its existence in terms of data/code/equivalent. As things are governed by code, altering said code will naturally alter the things it is fundamental to.
A concept would be more like the very intension of something, or the very definition of like "x-ness". Files here aren't that, as they're just named files that just contain the code that shapes things much like how real files work but on a more reality affecting level.
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That's why I said this line: "Except if it must also be stated to be a concept to qualify, but I don't think that would be the case" Because I know there's a fiction similar like this but the only difference is that they have it stated as a concept. You agreed that none of this is covered by Information (Type 2), which subsequently wouldn't make sense either for it to be covered by plot hence you came to the conclusion that they're governed by data and it's enough already.
But what makes you think that, file containing the codes that's apparently governed by "data", for it to not be a concept type 2 at all?
You do know, right? What you've been saying here doesn't even make sense in the slightest, you agreed that theyre not governed by info which subsequently theyre not governed by plot either but theyre governed by data? Are those stuff like time, et cetera that was stated to be concept in the justification for them to be made by data? A data alone in itself isn't capable of simulating that and this would contradict the entire universe being composed of information that's correlated with data cause you said it's not governed by info.. I don't know man, what makes you think data is capable to be like concept where theyre able to manipulate time, and everything in the verse
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I have no idea what you're saying. It doesn't matter if time was stated to be a concept in the justification because it's never stated to be so in the game. Data/information alone is in fact capable of simulating time. Time isn't some conceptual thing. Also when did I say things arent governed by information???
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Data alone in itself is not capable of simulating that without the help of information (type 2) since theyre the building block of the universe
Like, are we just gonna forget this
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Buddy. I'm referring to information type 2.
I dunno if there's a language barrier here but this pretty clearly means "This stuff is covered by info type 2"
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This is why I had a hard time digesting it, but anyway just make it very obvious next time because overcomplicating things gets to nowhere and we all probably know that.
Anyways, I don't know how all those stuff are covered by IM2: IM2 simply is the ability to manipulate fundamental information that serves as the fundamental building block of reality with that same building block of reality to be composed entirely by information. Any implications here that they're able to create another fundamental building block of reality when they're all equal? No, unless information there is a metaphysical aspect that's above any metaphysical aspect to even be able to replicate those kind of feat. It's because you could have another building block of reality that's fundamental and its not composed to be as information (concept type 2 for example, with concept type 1 being independent from this part of reality)
This alone is the sole reason why I disagreed with the OP, yes the main problem lies with them not being stated as a concept in-verse but only in the justification so it doesn't matter cause if it was stated as a concept in-verse its definitely concept type 2. Leaving to staff to read all this honestly
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None of this really leave of the scope of Info2, this is, at best, Higher Info2, because whether it's DDLC, VN1, or PC, what continues to be manipulated is information/data. Why would something like "manipulating a structure that contains an Info2 structure" be considered CM?
For example: imagine a structure that is pure Info2, and then, this structure is inside a PC, and we can imagine the PC as a "larger structure that contains the Info2 structure".
Why would a character manipulating the "information structure" that exists within the PC through the PC grant CM?
And plot would definitely not be CM with these arguments, the plot is literally a file, that is, it is Info2, both CM and Info2 are fundamental to what they form/govern, "being fundamental" is not exactly evidence that would make something that is Info2 also fit into CM, since Info2 itself is also fundamental to reality, nothing really proves that plot are anything more than just information.
For example: imagine a structure that is pure Info2, and then, this structure is inside a PC, and we can imagine the PC as a "larger structure that contains the Info2 structure".
Why would a character manipulating the "information structure" that exists within the PC through the PC grant CM?
And plot would definitely not be CM with these arguments, the plot is literally a file, that is, it is Info2, both CM and Info2 are fundamental to what they form/govern, "being fundamental" is not exactly evidence that would make something that is Info2 also fit into CM, since Info2 itself is also fundamental to reality, nothing really proves that plot are anything more than just information.
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Yeah, yours is just semantics.
You're ignoring that script isn't just the plot, but instead is the entire set of instructions given to the game in how to handle its functions, and how it's not just the information of the plot, but it shapes the reality of the game as it does stuff like manipulating time and being able to erase it. If anything, the plot is a subset of the script, and not its equal.
You asked evidence for files shaping reality and make it the way it is, I gave said evidence, and you're now stonewalling with "but this is still only Info 2!", when I have literally gave you proof of what you requested as evidence after that I asked what's exactly the difference, and how it cannot be just Info 2. Debating with you like this feels very unproductive, if nothing can convince you even if I give the evidence you ask, sorry.
A file that is more fundamental than the other ones.* It's not just the information on the plot, it's the file that gives to the game its entire functioning.
Please don't fixate on the term fundamental, I don't need to be careful over all this VBW-ism in order to say a point. Perhaps I should've said more important, but yeah, you get my point there.
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That's just stuff like programming instructions dictating how things go. Shaping and affecting time and reality isn't out of domain of info or plot either.
Could you show where I requested for that type of information? I think you might have me mixed up with someone else on the thread.
It really can just be covered with info type 2. You not wanting to accept my take on it or me not finding the evidence sufficient enough isn't me stonewalling. This is just an agree to disagree, so I'll just wait for staff.
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I do not think it's really the same as simply the raw metafictional story, but an actual mechanic of said programming, so I do think it's deeper.
I thought you agreed with that given your Like there. If that wasn't evidence of you fully agreeing with that sentiment, then I apologize.
You still don't elaborate why though, not even once. You just say that it does with no real evidence.
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Not only it was not said in the Info page, but you're ignoring also the part where we said that the script does not only make just the plot and its information, but also the very basis of reality in itself given it's a core part of the game that makes up the universe.
Atp we're going in circles, and I'll just wait for staff input as it's clear that this conversation isn't going anywhere.
Atp we're going in circles, and I'll just wait for staff input as it's clear that this conversation isn't going anywhere.
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Let me also just dissect the Info manip page a bit to support my interpretation.
It serves as a fundamental building block, so it is what shapes reality.
It composes reality much like how data underlies a video game world and defines the world in varying but equally fundamental ways and thus it governs reality.
They can rewrite or shape the world however they like by manipulating the code that defines reality.
It has varying potency and it isn't limited to simply what the page initially gives, so it has a wider range of possible applications.
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Genuinely I've never seen any metaphysical aspect coming out of a type 2 information
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I think this stuff being layered IM2 is a better option if that helps.
Concepts dont inherently govern any metaphysical aspects either. It just depends on how a verse treats what proceeds from what. Plot can govern Info, info can govern plot, info can be fundamental code behind things like concepts, and concepts can be concepts behind information. Information can also encompass lower form of information in a way hax layers work.
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Genuinely same. Looks like made up standards at this point ngl.
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In fiction, some metaphysical aspects are often more fundamental than others or able to govern other aspects. E.g. Concepts frequently govern the laws of the universe and are more fundamental than them, such that manipulation of the laws can't influence concepts, but manipulating concepts also changes the laws to reflect the changes to reality performed when concepts were manipulated.
There is no default order to metaphysical aspects, meaning that if we have no additional information from the fiction a power comes from, we can not decide whether or not the ability to manipulate one aspect would be able to influence, overcome or be affected by another. For example, per default plot manipulation would not be able to manipulate concepts, but concept erasure can't necessarily be used to erase the plot either. In a vs-debate a clash between such powers may have an indeterminate outcome, unless at least one of the fictions involved clarifies how the interaction between the metaphysical aspects works.
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I don't understand what's so hard to believe about the fact that metaphysical information can be the source of objects rather than just concepts, tbh.
It's just like how code in a video game ends up forming the entire world of that game, including things like time and space. Quite literally so in the case of DDLC. In fact DDLC just might be... the most blatant case of this.
It's just like how code in a video game ends up forming the entire world of that game, including things like time and space. Quite literally so in the case of DDLC. In fact DDLC just might be... the most blatant case of this.
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Tbf here, info 2 is metaphysical aspect by itself, so a metaphysical aspect coming out of it is.......very normal
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Information creating laws, causality, concept or plot isn't normal, no?
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Why is that not normal? I'm confused. Again, literally in DDLC we see that information controls the entire goddamn game. Monika is able to manipulate time, reality, and the plot through directly interfering with and rewriting the code.
If anything, the order of aspects in DDLC seems to be:
Reality < Plot < Information
The Auditor from madness combat also has a very similar ability in his true form:
The Auditor
The Auditor is the main antagonist of the Madness Combat series. He is enigmatic figure apart of the group called The Employers, Dark Angels coming as Stewards to The Machine. The Auditor is also the leader and original creator of the A.A.H.W, a committed army founded to specifically kill Hank...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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They're stated to be defining several aspects of existence whilst Monika on the other hand isn't, the order of aspects in DDLC were:Why is that not normal? I'm confused. Again, literally in DDLC we see that information controls the entire goddamn game. Monika is able to manipulate time, reality, and the plot through directly interfering with and rewriting the code.
If anything, the order of aspects in DDLC seems to be:
Reality < Plot < Information
The Auditor from madness combat also has a very similar ability in his true form:
The Auditor
The Auditor is the main antagonist of the Madness Combat series. He is enigmatic figure apart of the group called The Employers, Dark Angels coming as Stewards to The Machine. The Auditor is also the leader and original creator of the A.A.H.W, a committed army founded to specifically kill Hank...
Time < Information/Plot < Script
I don't get why you thought Information (Type 2) in DDLC there is the most fundamental thing when it's just, not.. It's the script that literally shapes and makes up everything and that includes the plot, information, time and et cetera because without this "Script". The Virtual Machine simply wouldn't even work, that's the entire point of the game. I'm sure there's an instance where if you tried to delete that, the game just stops working entirely.
I'm on the side that Time here is neither made up out of neither information or concept, if it was information — There's already a counterargument to it with this "Script" thingy and if it was made up of concept. I mean, would it be necessary for it to be stated as a concept just so it gets that ability anyway?
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i think the script governing reality is supposed to be the cm 1 part?
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As others pointed out before and after this comment, everything you are arguing the Info2 covers, a both info2 and cm can be things that shape/form reality, "shaping the reality" is not at all a solid argument to make CM also info or what info is also CM.
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It should be OP add all votes
Anonymous_Learner
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I agree with the thread
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Don't know how something so messy got accepted in the first place, but yeah, the Concept Manip can go.
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Monika manipulated code on the deepest level imaginable. Code makes up everything in her world, including concepts. So Monika would have concept manip. It’s fairly simple.
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Man, where's my conceptual guilty Gear backyard argument then. I've shown this same scan of the backyard convening the information that defines the fundamental truth of the world years ago, yet I don't see guilty Gear getting conceptual magic if the bar for conceptual is set that loose.
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All I saying is that if everything in her world is made out of code, that would include concepts. She can manipulate code on the deepest level, thereby meaning she’d have conceptual manipulation.
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That would work if concepts that shape reality where directly apart of the hierarchy like the plot, asserting type 2 info would take priority over concepts because it so fundamental to shaping reality but still not really get to the point to explaining why it's conceptual without directly affecting a concept.
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