Super Galaxy Bros: Return of the Grand Stars

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Why haven't YOU provided explicit proof that Bowser was using greater or equal energy to the Grand Star or that the Grand Star was the cause of the black hole? You're the one who helped with the calculation.

Not trying to be rude, so I'm sorry if I came off as so.

Not sure why you think reversing the Burden of Proof is the play here. He's not arguing for your position.

 

[Chariot190]

Okay, you know what? I need actual evidence this rule exists, because so far I haven't found much.

A mod legit just told you, and like 5 people now have said as much.
You're being stubborn, refusing to do what's asked of you, and what's being asked isn't even extreme, it's the most basic thing possible and you're only being asked for 1 solid piece of evidence, on top of being given alternative methods on how to go about proving it.

Like did you even do what I suggested? Did you check the archive for the jap guides?

Where on the wiki does it state that you need to provide explicit statements or visuals that a character is using "equal or greater" energy than an artifact in order to be placed on that tier with it?

Go read the Metroid downgrades, the Kirby downgrades, every Sonic upgrade because chaos emerald slop is brought up every time, the tier 2 Zelda thread, etc.

Are you legitimately asking why you need proof? You need proof for anything, why not just say Mario is like 1-A at that point, silly is it not?

If this rule isn't on the wiki, why do you guys only have it on the forums?

I'm pretty sure "you need proof of scaling" is a established rule on wiki?

Show me some CRTs your community made for the verses they added to the wiki that went over this very rule.

I just pointed you toward some. The Metroid one isn't even that old, it's exactly why we downgraded Emperor Ing, because despite using the Light of Aether asa power source, we know the LoA is a limited source of power, and in fact is a tier 5 source of power.
And obviously Ing doesn't use it all up in combat, why? Because if he used it all the planet would legit collapse, if he used it all he wouldn't be able to draw on it again and again to attack, and if he used it all, Samus wouldn't be able to kill him, take the remainder of it, and give it back to the brugs because it would be GONE.
That's the exact same premise as Koops with the GS, we had no idea how much power he was using at a given time but we knew it couldn't be all of it, so he was downgraded.

More importantly, seeing as how YOU helped with the math and pixel-scaling for the calculation and suggested that we use the black hole in the beginning of this thread, why haven't YOU provided explicit proof that Bowser was using greater or equal energy to the Grand Star or that the Grand Star was the cause of the black hole?

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you holy hell, thank god I'm not a CGM anymore.
Because that isn't my job nor is it my CRT? It's you who wants it, I personally don't care.

I only gave you an out, out of generosity, I have verses I'm more concerned with that I'm busy overhauling, it isn't on me to do your job for you.
Me going "hey there's this feat that's done by a GS, here's a way to do it" and then you ignore the two low ends and only publish the high end for some reason but that's neither here nor there, doesn't make it my responsibility to waste my time gathering the evidence for you, you knew that from the get-go, I even told you to make sure you spent the time going through stuff to make a proper CRT with proper scans.
You did not, and you're continuing to refuse to and I have no idea why? If you don't want to make proper CRTs or index properly, don't make threads about it, like idk what you want me to say here, this goes for everyone.

So instead of trying to, in the most ridiculous 180 ever, go against someone who was helping you, because you don't want to spend what is probably only a few hours of skimming text dumps or jap guides, actually do so, and on that note, please never ask me for help again, if someone like Emile or idk who they are wants to ask sure, but you're clearly not appreciative of my time.

 

[JPTheGamer]

A mod legit just told you, and like 5 people now have said as much.
You're being stubborn, refusing to do what's asked of you, and what's being asked isn't even extreme, it's the most basic thing possible and you're only being asked for 1 solid piece of evidence, on top of being given alternative methods on how to go about proving it.

Like did you even do what I suggested? Did you check the archive for the jap guides?

Go read the Metroid downgrades, the Kirby downgrades, every Sonic upgrade because chaos emerald slop is brought up every time, the tier 2 Zelda thread, etc.

Are you legitimately asking why you need proof? You need proof for anything, why not just say Mario is like 1-A at that point, silly is it not?

I'm pretty sure "you need proof of scaling" is a established rule on wiki?

I just pointed you toward some. The Metroid one isn't even that old, it's exactly why we downgraded Emperor Ing, because despite using the Light of Aether asa power source, we know the LoA is a limited source of power, and in fact is a tier 5 source of power.
And obviously Ing doesn't use it all up in combat, why? Because if he used it all the planet would legit collapse, if he used it all he wouldn't be able to draw on it again and again to attack, and if he used it all, Samus wouldn't be able to kill him, take the remainder of it, and give it back to the brugs because it would be GONE.
That's the exact same premise as Koops with the GS, we had no idea how much power he was using at a given time but we knew it couldn't be all of it, so he was downgraded.

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you holy hell, thank god I'm not a CGM anymore.
Because that isn't my job nor is it my CRT? It's you who wants it, I personally don't care.

I only gave you an out, out of generosity, I have verses I'm more concerned with that I'm busy overhauling, it isn't on me to do your job for you.
Me going "hey there's this feat that's done by a GS, here's a way to do it", doesn't make it my responsibility to waste my time gathering the evidence for you, you knew that from the get-go, I even told you to make sure you spent the time going through stuff to make a proper CRT with proper scans.
You did not, and you're continuing to refuse to and I have no idea why? If you don't want to make proper CRTs or index properly, don't make threads about it, like idk what you want me to say here, this goes for everyone.

So instead of trying to, in the most ridiculous 180 ever, go against someone who was helping you, because you don't want to spend what is probably only a few hours of skimming text dumps or jap guides, actually do so, and on that note, please never ask me for help again, if someone like Emile or idk who they are wants to ask sure, but you're clearly not appreciative of my time.

Alright, I'll try to compromise here and come to terms...

Since we don't have much or any proof that Bowser was using "equal or greater energy" when it came to the Grand Star, what say I propose something else pertaining to the calculation and the Grand Star?

 

[Chariot190]

Alright, I'll try to compromise here and come to terms with you...

Since we don't have much or any proof that Bowser was using "equal or greater energy" when it came to the Grand Star, what say I propose something else?

Have you actually looked properly through things, including things like the japanese guides, websites, and other such sources of canonical information?
Because there's no way in hell you did all that in 5 minutes.
And if you do, and don't find anything maybe only then ill look myself when i have time then yeah sure, guess we're ******, but at least it's a feat to slot under tho longterm in case eventually someone does make substantial use of one, so it's good to have regardless.

But I don't like the way you frame that, why compromise, why propose something else? Like it is, or it isn't.
But i suppose hearing your alternative proposal wouldn't hurt, if it's legit there's no reason not to go with it.

 

[GyroNutz]

I was asked to comment here. Responding to a couple of points I’ve seen:

• I don’t think the gateway galaxy grand star is proof against this. That grand star was bronze, yes, but it went back to gold immediately after exiting the reactor. We don’t know whether Bowser’s grand star was also bronze while he was using it because we only see it once you knock it out of him (or when he’s not actively using it).
• There is some circumstantial evidence that would suggest Mario and co are using a non-trivial portion of the star’s powers. It would be logical to assume that if Bowser can utilise the full power of stars in a machine to create a galaxy, then he should be able to utilise a similar power in machines to destroy the bros. Megaleg, for instance, has a bronze Grand Star when fought.
• Aside from powering up its users, the other main benefit of power stars is to enable trace across the universe, with the Grand stars enabling life on the observatory and letting you travel to the centre of the universe. This obviously isn’t a 3-C feat, but Mario can travel to the edge of the universe and back with a single Power Star, so it shows at the very least that he has comparable, or better, efficiency than the reactors.

Whether you choose to agree with these points is fair either way, since I don’t think there’s more decisive evidence (happy to be proven wrong though). Though on that point, if we’re acknowledging different efficiencies, then I’d re-examine Power Moons being equal to Power Stars based on their Mushroom Kingdom appearance. They were downgraded initially because the Odyssey travelling to the moon is far less impressive than the galactic distances that Power Stars enable - but if the Odyssey is far less efficient than the reactors in Galaxy then that’s a moot point. Not entirely on topic though since it wouldn’t add to Mario’s key, just as an optional thing.

 

[JPTheGamer]

I was asked to comment here. Responding to a couple of points I’ve seen:

• I don’t think the gateway galaxy grand star is proof against this. That grand star was bronze, yes, but it went back to gold immediately after exiting the reactor. We don’t know whether Bowser’s grand star was also bronze while he was using it because we only see it once you knock it out of him (or when he’s not actively using it).
• There is some circumstantial evidence that would suggest Mario and co are using a non-trivial portion of the star’s powers. It would be logical to assume that if Bowser can utilise the full power of stars in a machine to create a galaxy, then he should be able to utilise a similar power in machines to destroy the bros. Megaleg, for instance, has a bronze Grand Star when fought.
• Aside from powering up its users, the other main benefit of power stars is to enable trace across the universe, with the Grand stars enabling life on the observatory and letting you travel to the centre of the universe. This obviously isn’t a 3-C feat, but Mario can travel to the edge of the universe and back with a single Power Star, so it shows at the very least that he has comparable, or better, efficiency than the reactors.

Whether you choose to agree with these points is fair either way, since I don’t think there’s more decisive evidence (happy to be proven wrong though). Though on that point, if we’re acknowledging different efficiencies, then I’d re-examine Power Moons being equal to Power Stars based on their Mushroom Kingdom appearance. They were downgraded initially because the Odyssey travelling to the moon is far less impressive than the galactic distances that Power Stars enable - but if the Odyssey is far less efficient than the reactors in Galaxy then that’s a moot point. Not entirely on topic though since it wouldn’t add to Mario’s key, just as an optional thing.

What can we put you down as? Agree, disagree, neutral?

 

[GyroNutz]

I’d lean towards agree

 

[IDK3465]

Actually, now that I think of it, the fact that stars can recharge back to full power within less than a second basically disproves the idea that Bowser can only use small amounts of its energy at a given time. Of course, we still don’t exactly know how much of said energy Bowser is using, but given how we see other things (like Megaleg) being able to match the rate of the Grand Star’s recharge, it is certainly realistic for him to want to use as much of it as he can. As such, I propose a likely 4-A to 3-C tier would make the most sense

 

[JPTheGamer]

Actually, now that I think of it, the fact that stars can recharge back to full power within less than a second basically disproves the idea that Bowser can only use small amounts of its energy at a given time. Of course, we still don’t exactly know how much of said energy Bowser is using, but given how we see other things (like Megaleg) being able to match the rate of the Grand Star’s recharge, it is certainly realistic for him to want to use as much of it as he can. As such, I propose a likely 4-A to 3-C tier would make the most sense

That might work, or we could just use the calculation I made as supporting evidence for the 3-C rating the Grand Star currently has.

 

[Chariot190]

Why the **** am I never getting notif'd here, it's every time

 

[JPTheGamer]

But i suppose hearing your alternative proposal wouldn't hurt, if it's legit there's no reason not to go with it.

Okay, we've seen Bowser create black holes in a few games like Mario Party 5, Mario Party 6, and Mario Party 9, and Mario Party 2 connects him with black holes. To add on, in his final battle with Mario in Super Mario Galaxy 2 after he swallows the Grand Star, he creates what seems to be a black hole that's sucking a lot of stuff into it; now this would probably be consistent with the Grand Stars seeing as how they're upgraded versions of the Power Stars which can create black holes. Knowing this, the most logical conclusion would be that this black hole was created by a Grand Star empowered Bowser, and Bowser’s machines in the Galaxy games, are able to draw enough energy from the Grand Star to empower his Galaxy Reactor and Galaxy Generator to create his own galaxy. In the second Galaxy game, Grand Star Bowser says he’ll create his New Galactic Empire, but he’s doing it by himself thanks to being empowered directly by the Grand Star. This could mean SMG2 Bowser is comparable to the machine from the first game since the Galaxy Reactor was stated to do the same thing.

 

[LuckyEmile]

To add to the idea that Bowser created the World 6 black hole, I think it helps to look into how it's presented to us through the game. No matter where you are in World 6, the black hole is visible from Starship Mario, even in cutscenes. Upon defeating Bowser and taking away his final Grand Star, he claims his powers are gone (consistent with how he boasts about having the power of the stars), and after that the previously ominous red-black background is swapped for a calming blue starry sky. Upon returning to Starship Mario, this blue background is seen rather than the ubiquitous black hole. Whilst it would be weird for the happy ending to have a massive black hole in the background, considering Starship Mario is always where you left it after you complete the mission, there shouldn't be any reason to think they went elsewhere, so we can safely say the background is now different and the World 6 black hole has ceased to be, notable timing considering Bowser's Grand Star powers are now gone.

And it makes sense for it to naturally look like this rather than the black hole to be preexisting, as Bowser says he wanted his empire to be in the centre of the universe, which we've seen in Mario Party 3 (oh no, I'm talking about this game again) and Super Mario Galaxy 1 to have blueish tones. And considering Lubba notes World 5 onwards as the enemy's home base, it's pretty narratively in-character for Bowser to want to make it complete with a flashy harbinger of ruin, with Omni pointing out he's already held an interest in black holes, such as Space Land theming his role as "Black Hole Bowser". Bowser has been shown to corrupt the Mushroom Kingdom and Sprixie Kingdom to feature lava-filled castles in Super Mario Bros, New Super Mario Bros U and Super Mario 3D World, and loves a great dark hurricane as the perfect backdrop to an awesome final battle (I really sweat the details) in Bowser's Inside Story, so it's clearly in-character for him to want foreboding headquarters. It's not beyond him to use artifacts to do the deed either, to tie into using the Grand Star here, as when Bowser steals the Music Keys in Mario DDR, taking them back from him transforms the surrounding volcanic wastelands into a lush grassland, indicating Bowser used the Music Keys to bring about such a setting. So, I would say there's some good indications/evidence Bowser was the one to make the World 6 black hole here.

 

[OrangeFR]

Due to IDK3465’s points I agree with everyone getting a 4-A, likely 3-C key.

 

[Chariot190]

Ok why the HELL am I not getting pinged, it's ONLY this thread too regardless of if I rewatch it or post

Legit kinda sus

 

[IDK3465]

Hold on, are we still going with Mario getting a Grand Star Key? Because if not, it may cause some scaling issues concerning he can harm Bowser in his Grand Star empowered form

 

[Dust_Collector]

Hold on, are we still going with Mario getting a Grand Star Key? Because if not, it may cause some scaling issues concerning he can harm Bowser in his Grand Star empowered form

I don't think anyone besides Bowser in the second game actually uses the Grand Stars to power themselves up, Mario just grabs them and tosses them into the observatory / lubbas spaceship to power them up instead. Any scaling issues that would be caused by base Mario harming Bowser can be explained by how he never directly harms Grand Star Bowser himself, and instead uses meteors that seem to be empowered by Bowser himself (They're summoned by him as an attack and the golden glow they have when Mario flings them at him only happens when Bowser punches near them, and if that doesn't work as an explanation then we'd just chalk it up as an outlier.

Or I dunno maybe Bowser actually isn't using enough energy from the Grand Star to become strong enough to jump tiers which is why Mario can still fight him

 

[Dust_Collector]

Ok why the HELL am I not getting pinged, it's ONLY this thread too regardless of if I rewatch it or post

Legit kinda sus

That's super weird, I think a few people on the DB discussion thread seem to having a similar issue for not getting pinged on that specific thread too. Site seems to be acting a bit whacky atm.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

If we assume all Grand Star users powered themselves up significantly with it, then most of them also have excuses. Gobblegut and the Boomsday Machine have obvious weak points, while Megaleg and Megahammer also have weak points that require their own Bullet Bills to be damaged. Unfortunately Bowser Jr’s Airship and King Kaliente break this idea, as Mario’s own power goes into the projectiles that damage them. All of them aside from Megaleg are also not explicitly stated to be harnessing the power as far as I’m aware.

Since Megaleg’s usage of the Grand Star causes it to turn bronze like the machine in Gateway Galaxy, I’d argue it at least would scale. Grand Star Bowser should also be at least as powerful as he is when using Power Stars, so that would be an outlier for Mario regardless of whether we scale Bowser to the higher stuff.

Bowser Jr.’s Airship and King Kaliente probably shouldn’t scale. Bowser iirc doesn’t use any Star power in Galaxy 1, so it wouldn’t make sense for something not obviously powerful like Megaleg to be billions of times stronger than him. Other bosses like King Bob-Omb in 64 and all the Galaxy series bosses also get beaten by base Mario, so it’s more likely they just can’t harness much power out of the stars like the main characters can. However for King Kaliente there’s a big issue, as Bowser Jr. calls him his ultimate weapon which should by default make him stronger than Megaleg. Idk how to rectify that as that throws a big wrench in this take, unless we say that Megaleg doesn’t scale and just needs a bunch of power to even function or something which seems goofy.

Gobblegut probably isn’t using more power since it would be unlikely for him to be way stronger than Fiery Gobblegut. Megahammer and the Boomsday Machine are interesting, as they’re giant mechs possibly designed to harness Star power, and they’re also fought after the first Bowser fight so it wouldn’t be unreasonable for them to have that level. However because of how strict the requirements seem to be, it might be best to not scale them to it either.

Edit: Why is it saying I posted this 27 minutes ago? I posted it this morning.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Edit: Why is it saying I posted this 27 minutes ago? I posted it this morning.

Sorry; that's on me. I was bumping to try and get more staff input.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Sorry; that's on me. I was bumping to try and get more staff input.

Are you deleting and reposting this or something? The time it says you posted this keeps changing (right now it’s saying 17 mins ago) and the thread link on the CRT forum keeps saying there’s a new post, but it’s always just this post and I’m not getting any notifications about this thread.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Are you deleting and reposting this or something? The time it says you posted this keeps changing (right now it’s saying 17 mins ago) and the thread link on the CRT forum keeps saying there’s a new post, but it’s always just this post and I’m not getting any notifications about this thread.

No, it's just me using the Bump Thread button. It's a benefit of being a supporter to the forum.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Bump

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

6 Pages Oof

 

[JPTheGamer]

6 Pages Oof

I mean, don't we already have the votes to apply the changes?

I believe another difference is the High 6-A is over the course of a massive AoE. Where as, the actual laser that absorbs the energy is much smaller and thus only actually absorbs a tiny portion of the sun's energy at a time due to how ISL works. In the case of Power Stars and Grand Stars, they're much smaller than the yellow sun combined with containing so much energy. Especially when characters physically eat a Power Star or Grand Star (Not saying that's evidence, since eating a battery isn't an AP feat in itself, just that the comparisons are far off overall)

Also, I suppose this should be a question for the OP. Did the 4-A Black Hole feat have a notable timeframe? Because, if we know the Joules/s value, that should at least scale to any casual user of a Grand Star.

Not sure why you think reversing the Burden of Proof is the play here. He's not arguing for your position.

I’d lean towards agree

 

[JPTheGamer]

Erm Link in The Legend of Zelda doesn’t show any universal feats on his own, but when using the full Triforce, which has demonstrated 3-A feats, he scales.
we dont have a single link scaling to the full triforce...
we dont even have zelda who has the full thing scaling to it all because she legit doesnt know how to. or "every dude with a chaos emerald scales to peak chaos emerald" no they don't

Just clarifying

I believe another difference is the High 6-A is over the course of a massive AoE. Where as, the actual laser that absorbs the energy is much smaller and thus only actually absorbs a tiny portion of the sun's energy at a time due to how ISL works. In the case of Power Stars and Grand Stars, they're much smaller than the yellow sun combined with containing so much energy. Especially when characters physically eat a Power Star or Grand Star (Not saying that's evidence, since eating a battery isn't an AP feat in itself, just that the comparisons are far off overall)

Also, I suppose this should be a question for the OP. Did the 4-A Black Hole feat have a notable timeframe? Because, if we know the Joules/s value, that should at least scale to any casual user of a Grand Star.

Not sure why you think reversing the Burden of Proof is the play here. He's not arguing for your position.

I’d lean towards agree

Bump?

Can somebody ping some staff here, please?

 

[Dalesean027]

What are the current arguments now

 

[Dust_Collector]

Yeah I'd also like someone to sum up the aguments for both sides.

But also something I think is worth mentioning for Bowser using the power of the Grand Stars is this statement here.
"You fought that Bowser monster again?! You look a bit more banged up than last time. He's getting stronger, eh? We need to stop Bowser before he gets any more powerful!"

Bowser is actively having to learn how to harness their power throughout the game, and Lubba makes note of the importance of stopping Bowser before he gets too powerful. Seems to imply he might not be using enough power to actually be that far above his normal stats given they make note of Mario only being "a bit" more damaged from the second fight compared to the first but I'll leave that for everyone else to discuss.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Yeah I'd also like someone to sum up the aguments for both sides.

But also something I think is worth mentioning for Bowser using the power of the Grand Stars is this statement here.
"You fought that Bowser monster again?! You look a bit more banged up than last time. He's getting stronger, eh? We need to stop Bowser before he gets any more powerful!"

Bowser is actively having to learn how to harness their power throughout the game, and Lubba makes note of the importance of stopping Bowser before he gets too powerful. Seems to imply he might not be using enough power to actually be that far above his normal stats given they make note of Mario only being "a bit" more damaged from the second fight compared to the first but I'll leave that for everyone else to discuss.

That’s a good find, but also makes things a bit complicated since Bowser has experience harnessing Star power before. Maybe Grand Stars are somehow different from normal Power Stars, but surely if Grand Stars take so long to master it would’ve been easier to just use Power Stars instead? I also find it unrealistic that Bowser would be weaker at first with a Grand Star than with a Power Star.

I haven’t played any Mario Parties with Power Stars, but does Bowser use any of them there or is it only in Super Mario 64? Maybe there’s something in any game he uses them that can add more context to how they power him. That Galaxy 2 statement basically confirms that Mario and Bowser don’t have a trillion time gap in power during the fights, so if Bowser scales to the higher tier Power Star feats when using them then there might be a problem. Or perhaps I’m missing something.

 

[Dust_Collector]

That’s a good find, but also makes things a bit complicated since Bowser has experience harnessing Star power before. Maybe Grand Stars are somehow different from normal Power Stars, but surely if Grand Stars take so long to master it would’ve been easier to just use Power Stars instead? I also find it unrealistic that Bowser would be weaker at first with a Grand Star than with a Power Star.

Yeah personally if we're already giving him a HIgh 4-C key for Power Stars I wouldn't be that bothered if we decided to use that for his Grand Star key too... I mean unless we start another long discussion about whether or not Power Star users are using the full power of those stars

I haven’t played any Mario Parties with Power Stars, but does Bowser use any of them there or is it only in Super Mario 64? Maybe there’s something in any game he uses them that can add more context to how they power him. That Galaxy 2 statement basically confirms that Mario and Bowser don’t have a trillion time gap in power during the fights, so if Bowser scales to the higher tier Power Star feats when using them then there might be a problem. Or perhaps I’m missing something.

I don't think he explictly amps himself in the party games with them at any point, gonna have to double check on that.

 

[JPTheGamer]

I also find it unrealistic that Bowser would be weaker at first with a Grand Star than with a Power Star.

Yeah personally if we're already giving him a HIgh 4-C key for Power Stars I wouldn't be that bothered if we decided to use that for his Grand Star key too... I mean unless we start another long discussion about whether or not Power Star users are using the full power of those stars

Why would we put the Grand Star at High 4-C? They're stated to be superior to the Power Star and it takes Mario & Luigi more than one Power Star in order to face off against Bowser with a Grand Star. That kind of scaling wouldn't make much sense.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Why would we put the Grand Star at High 4-C? They're stated to be superior to the Power Star and it takes Mario & Luigi more than one Power Star in order to face off against Bowser with a Grand Star. That kind of scaling wouldn't make much sense.

They can still be superior to something but remain in the same tier, there is a nearly 4 times gap between the Power Stars power output and solar system level afterall, plus I wasn't even saying the Grand Star itself would just be High 4-C, but rather Bowser using one could maybe be that tier since he's already got a High 4-C key for using an inferior artifact.

Also Mario and Luigi don't even use the stars for amps in the galaxy games they just collect them and dump them off on the spaceship, they're fighting Bowser with their natural strength (It's why they used to be 3-C in base).

 

[JPTheGamer]

Also Mario and Luigi don't even use the stars for amps in the galaxy games

But they have in Super Mario 64 DS, because they're stated to grow stronger from Peach's Castle the more Power Stars they collect.

I wasn't even saying the Grand Star itself would just be High 4-C, but rather Bowser using one could maybe be that tier since he's already got a High 4-C key for using an inferior artifact.

So, you're saying the Grand Stars wouldn't be High 4-C... but Bowser using one would be High 4-C? Why would we do that? What's the reasoning behind that?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Why would we put the Grand Star at High 4-C? They're stated to be superior to the Power Star and it takes Mario & Luigi more than one Power Star in order to face off against Bowser with a Grand Star. That kind of scaling wouldn't make much sense.

The problem is they don’t seem to use the power of Power Stars or Grand Stars in those games, as they’re only said to be used as a power source for the Comet Observatory and Starship Mario (unless there’s something I’m missing).

Yeah personally if we're already giving him a HIgh 4-C key for Power Stars I wouldn't be that bothered if we decided to use that for his Grand Star key too... I mean unless we start another long discussion about whether or not Power Star users are using the full power of those stars


I don't think he explictly amps himself in the party games with them at any point, gonna have to double check on that.

I was just quickly reminding myself of 64’s plot, and it might be the case that Bowser was getting better at using the Power Stars as the game progressed just like with the Grand Star. I need to have a look at NPC dialogue first to make sure there isn’t anything important there, and then if this take still holds merit I’ll write a more elaborate post on why i think this.

 

[Dust_Collector]

But they have in Super Mario 64 DS, because they're stated to grow stronger from Peach's Castle the more Power Stars they collect.

Ok? Mario 64 DS isn't Mario Galaxy 2. In galaxy they let the stars fly off away from them whereas in 64 they keep them on their person the whole game.

So, you're saying the Grand Stars wouldn't be High 4-C... but Bowser using one would be High 4-C? Why would we do that? What's the reasoning behind that?

It's just the tier he could be if it's not agreed he's using a large portion of the Grand Stars power. It's still up in the air how much of a Grand Stars power he's actively using for his attacks so it could be argued he knows how to at least get the same level of power out of one that he can from a Power Star.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Anyway we're starting to stray from the topic a lil' bit even if it's still related to scaling, we need someone to summerise the arguments for and against the scaling of the Grand Star. Or like maybe a new thread? I know a few pages back Armor asked for one since he didn't know what had changed since the CRT started.

 

[JPTheGamer]

The problem is they don’t seem to use the power of Power Stars or Grand Stars in those games, as they’re only said to be used as a power source for the Comet Observatory and Starship Mario (unless there’s something I’m missing).

It's just the tier he could be if it's not agreed he's using a large portion of the Grand Stars power. It's still up in the air how much of a Grand Stars power he's actively using for his attacks so it could be argued he knows how to at least get the same level of power out of one that he can from a Power Star.

An artifact that has the energy to create a galaxy shouldn't belong at a tier lower than the baseline of creating or destroying a galaxy, regardless of whether or not a character is in possession of it and whether or not that character is using some or all of its energy.

 

[Dust_Collector]

An artifact that has the energy to create a galaxy shouldn't belong at a tier lower than the baseline of creating or destroying a galaxy, regardless of whether or not a character is in possession of it and whether or not that character is using some or all of its energy.

Dude I literally just said that wouldn't be the tier of the Grand Star itself, just a potential tier we could use for Bowser using one. You even acknoweldged that I said that so what are you even arguing against?

 

[IDK3465]

Anyway we're starting to stray from the topic a lil' bit even if it's still related to scaling, we need someone to summerise the arguments for and against the scaling of the Grand Star. Or like maybe a new thread? I know a few pages back Armor asked for one since he didn't know what had changed since the CRT started.

I think the main thing going for scaling rn is the fact that the Grand Stars are shown to be capable of recharging back to full power in a matter of seconds after being fully drained (as shown after they get freed in the first level of Galaxy 1 and after the Megaleg boss fight), basically removing the need for Bowser to hold back on how much energy he can use.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Dude I literally just said that wouldn't be the tier of the Grand Star itself, just a potential tier we could use for Bowser using one. You even acknoweldged that I said that so what are you even arguing against?

It could be, but we can't just give him High 4-C with a Grand Star and leave it like that; I suggest we expand on that a little more by saying something like "High 4-C, possibly 4-A to 3-C" or something along those lines.

What are the current arguments now

Anyway we're starting to stray from the topic a lil' bit even if it's still related to scaling, we need someone to summerise the arguments for and against the scaling of the Grand Star. Or like maybe a new thread? I know a few pages back Armor asked for one since he didn't know what had changed since the CRT started.

Alright, the current vote is this...

Agree: @FinePoint, @ShakeResounding, @DarkDragonMedeus (agrees with 4-A casual attacks), @Just_a_Random_Butler, @Qawsedf234 (Agrees with 4-A Grand Star), @OrangeFR, @Apex_Predator_GX, @ActuallySpaceMan42 (Agrees with 4-A Grand Star), @GyroNutz,
Disagree: @Armorchompy, @Cropfist,
Neutral:

We've been back and forth with the 100% usage; the most recent argument against the Grand Star is this...

A mod legit just told you, and like 5 people now have said as much.
You're being stubborn, refusing to do what's asked of you, and what's being asked isn't even extreme, it's the most basic thing possible and you're only being asked for 1 solid piece of evidence, on top of being given alternative methods on how to go about proving it.

Like did you even do what I suggested? Did you check the archive for the jap guides?

Go read the Metroid downgrades, the Kirby downgrades, every Sonic upgrade because chaos emerald slop is brought up every time, the tier 2 Zelda thread, etc.

Are you legitimately asking why you need proof? You need proof for anything, why not just say Mario is like 1-A at that point, silly is it not?

I'm pretty sure "you need proof of scaling" is a established rule on wiki?

I just pointed you toward some. The Metroid one isn't even that old, it's exactly why we downgraded Emperor Ing, because despite using the Light of Aether asa power source, we know the LoA is a limited source of power, and in fact is a tier 5 source of power.
And obviously Ing doesn't use it all up in combat, why? Because if he used it all the planet would legit collapse, if he used it all he wouldn't be able to draw on it again and again to attack, and if he used it all, Samus wouldn't be able to kill him, take the remainder of it, and give it back to the brugs because it would be GONE.
That's the exact same premise as Koops with the GS, we had no idea how much power he was using at a given time but we knew it couldn't be all of it, so he was downgraded.

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you holy hell, thank god I'm not a CGM anymore.
Because that isn't my job nor is it my CRT? It's you who wants it, I personally don't care.

I only gave you an out, out of generosity, I have verses I'm more concerned with that I'm busy overhauling, it isn't on me to do your job for you.
Me going "hey there's this feat that's done by a GS, here's a way to do it" and then you ignore the two low ends and only publish the high end for some reason but that's neither here nor there, doesn't make it my responsibility to waste my time gathering the evidence for you, you knew that from the get-go, I even told you to make sure you spent the time going through stuff to make a proper CRT with proper scans.
You did not, and you're continuing to refuse to and I have no idea why? If you don't want to make proper CRTs or index properly, don't make threads about it, like idk what you want me to say here, this goes for everyone.

So instead of trying to, in the most ridiculous 180 ever, go against someone who was helping you, because you don't want to spend what is probably only a few hours of skimming text dumps or jap guides, actually do so, and on that note, please never ask me for help again, if someone like Emile or idk who they are wants to ask sure, but you're clearly not appreciative of my time.

The most recent arguments for the Grand Star are down below...

To add to the idea that Bowser created the World 6 black hole, I think it helps to look into how it's presented to us through the game. No matter where you are in World 6, the black hole is visible from Starship Mario, even in cutscenes. Upon defeating Bowser and taking away his final Grand Star, he claims his powers are gone (consistent with how he boasts about having the power of the stars), and after that the previously ominous red-black background is swapped for a calming blue starry sky. Upon returning to Starship Mario, this blue background is seen rather than the ubiquitous black hole. Whilst it would be weird for the happy ending to have a massive black hole in the background, considering Starship Mario is always where you left it after you complete the mission, there shouldn't be any reason to think they went elsewhere, so we can safely say the background is now different and the World 6 black hole has ceased to be, notable timing considering Bowser's Grand Star powers are now gone.

And it makes sense for it to naturally look like this rather than the black hole to be preexisting, as Bowser says he wanted his empire to be in the centre of the universe, which we've seen in Mario Party 3 (oh no, I'm talking about this game again) and Super Mario Galaxy 1 to have blueish tones. And considering Lubba notes World 5 onwards as the enemy's home base, it's pretty narratively in-character for Bowser to want to make it complete with a flashy harbinger of ruin, with Omni pointing out he's already held an interest in black holes, such as Space Land theming his role as "Black Hole Bowser". Bowser has been shown to corrupt the Mushroom Kingdom and Sprixie Kingdom to feature lava-filled castles in Super Mario Bros, New Super Mario Bros U and Super Mario 3D World, and loves a great dark hurricane as the perfect backdrop to an awesome final battle (I really sweat the details) in Bowser's Inside Story, so it's clearly in-character for him to want foreboding headquarters. It's not beyond him to use artifacts to do the deed either, to tie into using the Grand Star here, as when Bowser steals the Music Keys in Mario DDR, taking them back from him transforms the surrounding volcanic wastelands into a lush grassland, indicating Bowser used the Music Keys to bring about such a setting. So, I would say there's some good indications/evidence Bowser was the one to make the World 6 black hole here.

Okay, we've seen Bowser create black holes in a few games like Mario Party 5, Mario Party 6, and Mario Party 9, and Mario Party 2 connects him with black holes. To add on, in his final battle with Mario in Super Mario Galaxy 2 after he swallows the Grand Star, he creates what seems to be a black hole that's sucking a lot of stuff into it; now this would probably be consistent with the Grand Stars seeing as how they're upgraded versions of the Power Stars which can create black holes. Knowing this, the most logical conclusion would be that this black hole was created by a Grand Star empowered Bowser, and Bowser’s machines in the Galaxy games, are able to draw enough energy from the Grand Star to empower his Galaxy Reactor and Galaxy Generator to create his own galaxy. In the second Galaxy game, Grand Star Bowser says he’ll create his New Galactic Empire, but he’s doing it by himself thanks to being empowered directly by the Grand Star. This could mean SMG2 Bowser is comparable to the machine from the first game since the Galaxy Reactor was stated to do the same thing.

I think the main thing going for scaling rn is the fact that the Grand Stars are shown to be capable of recharging back to full power in a matter of seconds after being fully drained (as shown after they get freed in the first level of Galaxy 1 and after the Megaleg boss fight), basically removing the need for Bowser to hold back on how much energy he can use.

The current mod vote is 6-1, and so far, nobody has said anything else yet against the most recent arguments that are arguing IN FAVOR of the Grand Star.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I think the main thing going for scaling rn is the fact that the Grand Stars are shown to be capable of recharging back to full power in a matter of seconds after being fully drained (as shown after they get freed in the first level of Galaxy 1 and after the Megaleg boss fight), basically removing the need for Bowser to hold back on how much energy he can use.

Based on the bronze Grand Star thing Bowser’s definitely not “holding back”, but he also needs time to properly learn that power.

The issue though is that even with that argument Bowser should still be in the Tier 4 range. Even at his weakest in 64, he knew how to use Star power well enough to fight Mario with 8+ Power Stars. Bowser didn’t personally have all the Power Stars on him in 64 and was seemingly just drawing power from the ones under the control of his army, whereas in Galaxy 2 the Grand Star is literally in his body so he’s probably drawing on way more power than he was from a single Power Star in 64. There’s also the question of whether the 4-A calc actually applies to Bowser or not as I don’t think that was proven yet. If it was created by Bowser with the power of the Grand Star then he would be 4-A anyway, so that adds more complications.