Yuta Okkotsu vs Fern (Jujutsu Kaisen vs Frieren: Beyond Journey’s End)

[Chariot190]

sorry for late reply, not sure why i even bother, but i felt like i have to

Arguing for the sake of arguing is obnoxious. Don't.

justification makes it sound like that

No it doesn't, if you read it properly you'd know it says mana, that covers, well, anything with mana? You'd also know they amp their stats with mana.

"Her casting speed is among the quickest in the world, even quicker than Frieren; blitzed Lore with her Zoltraak from far away"

Yes, she upscales everyone else in attack speed. Basic scaling.

how is that obnoxious???? i checked the thread, saw speed equal, replied with that in mind...

Did you not read the thread up to that point? You'd know it wasn't speed equal for 99% of it, was changed, and then reverted.
Actually read the thread before you reply so you don't waste everyone's time retreading things already tackled.

in most scenes posted its either straight line or slightly curved,

Slightly curved? Please do not make me literally trace the blatant 90 degree dips

you are implying she can control each to act like a tracking missile or smth, she doesnt usually do it

Yeah I am, because she can, and if her foes move, she does so.
It's literally something established as early as chapter 3 of the manga. Any mage worth a damn can do it, the very fact she curves them, as you can see in literally every single instance posted in this thread, is to have them hit enemy mages from all sides, causing them to expend mana casting defense magic, which is a costly spell.

Do not "usually doesn't", she does it every single fight she's ever been in, they're either just blocked by omnidirectional defense magic, her foes gets overwhelmed and she just wins, or neither of the above and it looks like this


Vastly inferior Fern btw

So no, she "doesnt usually do it", she's always controlling her attacks' trajectory, it just usually doesn't look to fancy because she usually beats their ass within seconds, if they start moving around, so does her beams.

she doesnt, atleast not on the lvl you're suggesting.

Literally every fight she's ever been in that doesn't end with her just one shotting.

i dont, why would i lie? here she literally starts with individual blasts, and doesnt spam "hundreds per second"(absurd wank) and only uses 2 clearly visible blasts

You need to pay more attention lad.
In that page alone there's at least 6 blasts. Which would be blatantly obvious if you actually paid attention given the placement of the alleged blasts completely change location between panels, all while he's yapping about how she's fast af and is being pressured by the sheer quantity and pushed back by her onslaught.

So yes, why would you do that? Why would you take a static medium, completely ignore what's drawn anyway, ignore what they're saying on panel that elaborates on what's happening, and then go "see only two beams!", as the dude is explaining how he's being DPS checked.

And mind you, that's a vastly inferior Fern to what's being used in this match, she can summon at least 14 individual sigils at this point in time, AND she's like 3x faster, and she can fire dozens a second from her perspective, I'm not explaining basic math to you, again.

blatant lie as shown above, she basically never does that

Your sole example is an example where they literally put a statement for it.
You're digging yourself a hole.

her spam is nowhere near being 3x faster

Uh, yes it is? She is literally 3x faster than Sukuna? Don't like it go upgrade his ass ig.

no she isnt, i will be skipping that point from now on, since that simply never happened, even taking the anime its at best like 15 a second

I literally sent you a scene where she fired 36 in a second.

See this? That's 36-38 a second.
Stop wasting my time with because you can't even be bothered to count frame by frame.
That's 12 sigils, in the span of 1 second, 23.97 frames to be exact, almost forty are fired. You're acting like the sigils don't fire again for at least a whole second.

this is not a lie, this is you being actively ignorant, covering your eyes, and saying shit again and again as if it isn't being spoonfed to you.

her being 3x faster =/= her spam being 3x faster

That's exactly what it means.
Everything she's doing is going to be proportionally 3x faster than if she was fighting someone equal to her speed.
It's all relative, from her pov she fires say, a dozen shots in 1/3rd of a second, that's her perspective, yet, her perspective is almost triple Yuta's, to him, that 1/3rd is gonna be functionally almost 1/9th.

curving them a bit makes no difference

Real frug moment

im just curious what is Yuta's wincon in your opinion, by what you say, fern is 3x faster, spams, can one shot, flies away, predicts any and all attacks, counters every single ability Yuta has, like what???? just scrap this whole fight then

I would've said sure if you didn't argue extensively he actually wins. Your insistence made this not a stomp, that's on you, not me.

but aside from that, show her spamming zoltraak with magic boost

I never said she'd spam it? in fact I said a handful.
But she doesn't need to, literally one is enough, the fact she can do a handful in a instant is just the nail in the coffin.
Buuuut....


Straight up says that doing so doesn't actually effect her attack speed.

refresh my memory

There's no way....
Man are you even caught up, or are you just acting like you are because you go back and forth between acting like you have, and then asking or arguing the most basic shit possible like "is Fern that fast outside of attack speed" or this now.

no it was multiple at once

For the love of god actually pay attention to what's already been posted


You're conflating the multiple that broke her shield, with the final Zoltraak that put her on her ass.

why are we using anime again? why dont i start bringing up jjk anime?

I mean is the JJK anime accepted to use? If it is, shrug idc go ahead.
And because you're incapable of understanding that manga is a static medium and when characters go "omg she's firing a frugtillion beams and is overwhelming!" with a static panel showing like 8, to mean she only fired 8, and ignoring the fact it's supposed to be rapid fire repeatedly.

The anime conveys that, I wouldn't go to deep into the anime otherwise, but your ignorance and twisting of basic showings to somehow be less than what they are, well, that's on you, not me.

Legit you're basically going


"Oh that's 5 punches, he only punched 5 times lmao"

When really it's supposed to be like this

This is basically what your argument amounts to, ignoring context, ignoring intent, even ignoring basic paneling that dictate the various blasts between panels aren't the same one's from the prior panel due to change in location, and going "yep I only see this many drawn in one panel so-", conflating sigils with the actual beams, and handwaving said sigils aren't just firing one a time.

small explosions, via multiple beams

I don't know how to reply to you. Are you really going to make me waste time pixel scaling the blatantly hundred+ meter explosions scattered throughout the manga by her just because, well really idk why you're saying it, you have eyes, you can see it yourself.

no, not hundreds, again you are making up a multiplier out of NOWHERE, her being 3x faster than Yuta, does NOT suddenly change the amount she can fire per second,

Yes it does, if she fires whatever many from her PoV, to Yuta that value is nearly triple. It's relative.

WHERE IS LOGIC IN THAT??? so like if yuta had same speed, she would fire less per second? or if yuta was faster she would fire even LESS per second?????????

Yes?
You're acting like the "per second" thing is an actual stated value, it isn't, it's just how many is fired from characters of her caliber's pov in a certain timeframe.

Like, for example, if Vegeta fired 100 ki blasts in say 60 frames, that's cool, but his ass is MFTL+, to a subsonic, that 100 is gonna be more like 1000000000000. In the time it takes the subsonic to even blink, Vegeta would have had enough time to throw quadrillions of attacks.

Same here, if Yuta was equal to Fern, it'd be much like how we see it from her PoV. But that isn't the case, Yuta is going to be slow motion.

PER SECOND is key words here.

I really didn't think this was a complex thing to understand.
Would "per frame" be more suitable for you?

Because it isn't "1 second", there's no real timeframe, it's just from their perspective. As in, from the perspective of someone almost triple Yuta's speed, almost 40 attacks are fired within what is relatively 1 second.

disagreeing with you isnt ignorance,

It is when you're just saying objectively wrong things, framing it as fact even though anyone here can legit just count themselves or check and go "ayo hol up?" and then you say nonsense like you're about to right below, making up entirely new abilities for her just because the alternative, what's actually the case, goes against your entire argument.

by control i assume something like her making them curve alot,

You assume?
How about you don't assume anything. Every fight she's been in that doesn't end with a one shot, has her manually controlling her attacks to curve, pivot, slip past defenses, etc. This isn't a matter of debate.

follow her target or smth of that sort, not to mention its not mid spam,

It literally is? Zoltraak without control just goes straight, EVERY single instance in this thread has her curving beams, and whatnot, while firing multiple at a time, on repeat.

This is beyond irritating, almost every single argument you have is just ignoring what's on screen or panel and going "actually nuh uh", there's nothing even to argue here, you're just wrong.

she locks onto the target then fires in their direction, thats it

Not an ability she has. Zoltraak doesn't have autoaim, they have to control it manually.
Please stop talking out of ignorance.

i get it, but if its a stomp, then can it even be added to profiles? basically no one seems to disagree with that outside of me

And you're why it isn't, congratulations.

her being faster does not mean she will adapt faster,

That's literally what it means, she's always going to be faster on the draw.

considering she's the one overwhelming in first seconds, what would she even adapt to

The fact he isn't dead? He shouldn't even have any body mass left if he was normal, the fact all he'd have, in this context, is probably some heavy bruising and tissue wounds, from like 40 direct hits, is going to hit so many red flags, especially given she has experience with entities like that now, that why WOULDN'T she adapt accordingly? It isn't like she hasn't for less, it isn't like she hasn't adapted to demons who wouldn't go down with an onslaught, it isn't like she doesn't know what to do in response to tanky foes, etc.

Yuta can also one shot her with CS, and i already explained why his kit works,

JL literally doesn't work, this isn't up for debate.
Sky requires him manually pulling space, and it only protects him where he covers.
CS sigh....
Rika is just slow comparatively.
DE is like actually good, but he's more likely to just get offed first, or do something else first and get off'd in the process.

but you ignore it so i wont bother explaining again

I didn't ignore it, if anything I'm actually taking into account the caveats. JL only nullifies CE, it's why it's listed as LIMITED power null on the profile, and that's how it's described, on the profile. Don't like it? Go make a CRT.
Sky? Yeah it could maybe deflect Zoltraak, but only where he actually pulls space to cover, it doesn't cover him entirely, and when Fern is firing numerous blasts at once, and can just pivot her attacks around where he pulled the space, it's not only useless, but actually wasting his time to even try that.
DE is useful, but only if he leads with it right away before she creates distance, damage boosts him, and so forth.
CS being needed to be heard is just a weakness for it, not my fault.

im not joking, none of that equals spatial manip lmao, are YOU joking? also the pic below isnt showing

"from magic negation to even weird anti matter shit?"
I figured basic linguistics would make it obvious there's a huge wide range of magic and "basic to not basic" was me conveying two ends of a spectrum.

This is a issue on your end, not mine.

The pic below shows just fine for me, just click the url if need be.

good luck when yuta can wrap it around himself

That's literally my point, that example is PRECISELY WHY it's awful. She's vulnerable from top and below, she's only covering where she actually pulls the space over.

And mind you, you realize Fern is multiple times faster, wasting time doing that is legit getting him killed.

and fern doesnt do that,

Literally does.

when someone tries blocking her attacks she doesnt start curving them around barriers, she just continues shooting

imgur.com

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users.

imgur.com

Start of the manga, the very first thing we learn about mage combat, defense magic even.
they can curve attacks, they can use to go around defenses and strike blindspots, this is the most basic combat training.
We learn that "hey doing that is actually dumb, instead just manifest a shield in a specific place wherever you'd be hit".

Which is something EVERY mage she's ever fought has done.

imgur.com

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users.

imgur.com

Here's 3 examples within a few chapters of each other.

She's always attacking from a bunch of angles and directions, the fact mages have thought based forcefields that can spawn hexagonal magic null defenses all around them, is something Yuta doesn't have.
Yuta needs to physically grab space, pull, and only where he pulled is he protected, so what do you think Fern is gonna do? Just curve around where he pulled like she's been trained since adolescence to do, and has done multiple times since.

i wont even bother with that nonsense

I'll take that as a concession.

its not, never was, atleast from we what can see, Uro had her ears covered and was still affected.

She still heard it?
Not exactly an argument when the profile says otherwise, and your example of it not being a counter, is someone hearing it and being effected?
Try again.

and preventing sound from reaching you is REALLY different from just some noise being around,

It actually isn't, do you know what sound interference is?
An average scream has like 110 dB, a 1kt blast for example is quite literally over a billion times that. That isn't hyperbole mind you, it's literally a billion times more intense.

While sounds usually superimpose and both exist simultaneously, sufficiently strong soundwaves and pressure, say, a huge explosion, isn't superimposing together, it's going to actively distort and obliterate the smaller waveform.

You're comparing a small oscillation of a few pascals vs a giant shockwave that destroys high-frequency content, overwrites ow-pressure variation (vowels, tone), distorts and flattens the lower waveform, etc.

It isn't even a topic of discussion, like I'd understand if they were within the same range, at that point they'd overlap, but that isn't the case, and the worst part? Fern's blasts legit have supersonic shockwaves and a vacuum.

his words will still reach Fern, not her every single beam causes some massive sound everywhere, out of everything this is the most absurd "counter"

They actually do if they hit a sufficiently hard surface and don't pierce it.
Happens every time, for EVERY character.

imgur.com

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users.

imgur.com

A few examples out of probably dozens, I'm not going over every single instance, you get the point.
Zoltraak either hits a defense, is nullified.
Hits a target, pierces it, dead.
Hits something, 1 and 2 don't happen, it creates an explosion.

Literally every time.

ok, its just that you made it sound like precog

I literally never said she had precog? I said analprecog tho, but, she actually does have that it's on the profile and that isn't "precog" anyway.

why? where is that stated? did you just decide it on the spot or? if its some vsbw specific rule, then tell me, im fairly new here, like geez calm down

It's in our Verse Equalization rules.
Innate encompassing facets get equalized, if in context, normal humans have mana and CE, both Fern and Yuta will have CE and mana respectively. They won't be able to use it, they might not even realize they have it, but both will have it if it's an innate quality.

Think of it like say, Goku Vs. Batman. Batman will be assumed to have ki, this means Goku can sense him, read his PL, and so forth, but this doesn't mean Batman is gonna start firing ki blasts.

Exceptions would be like for example, a character has soul manip, we obviously assume characters have souls, but if a character like say, Light Yagami or a robot, we won't assume they have a soul because they explicitly do not have one instead, they'd be the exception.

This doesn't mean Yuta's CE acts like mana, or Fern's mana acts like CE, mana and CE itself are far to different mechanically to equalize, so Fern's magic null won't inherently power null Yuta's CE, in the same way Yuta's JL won't null Fern's mana, but if a normal human in JJK has CE just, by default, in the same way anything in DBZ has ki, even if only a lil, equivalent foes would be assumed to have that innate property.

i didnt say that he could

Implication was there.

i said it on a premise that Yuta would have no mana, if he gets some as you say, you are still overhyping it, it has very clear limits

It does. Fortunately Fern has the best mana detection in the verse has some wild feats like sensing minute imperceptible fluctuations in others, or keeping track of negligible mana among countless people and objects, while it's moving, from across a city, without issue.

im not being obtuse, im just allowing yknow, even a possibility that fern doesnt spam HUNDREDS OF BEAMS PER SECOND,

Yeah but she do tho that's her whole gimmick, rapid fire beam pressure till her foe goes down.

and that her opponent was in fact overwhelmed by just 8,

Oh god you actually ARE arguing that, man read the text bubbles, they literally say she's rapid firing

same as lugher who was overwhelmed with like 2-3 just being shot fast

Man you def ain't reading. It's especially bad there because the alleged 2-3, aren't even in the same spots between panels, wonder what that means?
That's rhetorical, it means the previous ones hit and those are just new ones.

SP has showings in the manga of punching alot of times, (not 600 but i wont derail),

Yeah and so does Fern.

imgur.com

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users.

imgur.com

This btw is the most punches drawn on one page for Plat.
Are you going to say Plat only threw 26 punches total? And that's the most he can throw? Because a static image that conveys "hey he's throwing innumerable punches" only drew a handful instead of the total accumulative amount on one panel?
That is what you're arguing here essentially. But debately worse in Fern's case because they flatout say she's firing again and again so you legit can't even pull this shit.

fern however spamming even 8 per second is absolutely plausible to overwhelm mages in frieren who get really quickly tired when using defense spells

What? You're ignoring the actual showing of how fast she rapid fires, making up your own value, an you think that shit is gonna fly?
The 8 per second is actually 8 sigils, with her firing dozens a second, from her perspective.
Also you're legit just wrong

Even a young Fern can keep up her defenses for a few minutes straight. First-Class lv mages aren't going to be anywhere near that bad.

no, not how that works, if i fire 10 bullets per second, it will still be 10 bullets for both a baby and a professional boxer (just an example)

Do you not know what pov means?

completely different situation, if said mftl character throws exactly 10 punches PER second, it will STILL be 10 punches for the subsonic dude, he just wont be able to react to them

There's no way you took "per second" to mean a literal second in real time, as opposed to from the perspective of her, a hypersonic character. Who is nearly triple her foe's speed here.

I shouldn't even have to explain this, it should've been obvious when I mentioned frames, her pov and perspective dozens of times, and more.

considering her attacks can hurt yuta, she wont be using it any time soon

Based on what? Either you're arguing he dies in the initial onslaught, so she has no reason to, or he doesn't and she has reason to. There's no inbetween here. She knows she has this, she uses it against characters that are dangerous and won't go down. Is that not Yuta here?

she cant, rika just spawns behind her already holding Fern, that should be the most fair wincon for yuta followed by CS and SM

Literally never happened, the single time anything even close to that happened in JJK, Rika's grip was a good 20cm away, even with Yuji, she's like 20cm from direct contact. Might not seem that big, but she's just huge, it's like almost a head's length in gap.

already answered

Your answer was "im not gonna answer".
How do you not recall your own response in this VERY post dude.

its still a valid defense, and yes he can cover majority of his body with it

It isn't because whether you like it or not, she can, and does, attack from all angles, can control her attacks, actively does so, and Yuta even doing that in the first place is slow motion to her, in the time it takes him to grab some space and cover just the front of him, he's been hit like 70 times.

+ can send beams back at Fern

Yeah, unless she just turns them back around, or makes them go around it?

he does, he can take her attacks and make a decision,

And just like that, you gave reason for her to damage boost.

considering she doesnt insta spam

This is ignorance on your end, everyone but you seems to think otherwise, isn't that odd?
Isn't it odd that you're framing a scene that happens early enough in the manga for it to not even remotely effect if she does it nowadays as some sort of "gotcha", but in a scene she does that anyway too?

and he can regen for a few seconds which is more than enough,

And then damage boost.
She's going to notice he isn't going down before he figures out what to do in response dude.

also if we say she has CE, then he would be able to see the sparks before the attacks,

Not how this works. She has CE, but her attacks aren't CE. In the same way Yuta would have mana, but his attacks wouldn't be mana.

Not that this matters, he could know exactly what's coming, it won't help when said things blindside him from every direction at like triple his speed.

and we know those can help dodge attacks LEAGUES above your own speed (ie sukuna dodging em waves, or kusakabe blocking dismantles also seeing their sparks)

Using unaccepted outliers, or aimdodging (Which doesn't work because she can control her attacks so he legit can't dodge even if he wanted to as she'd just react to him dodging and pivot her attacks), is not the argument here lad.

thats how arguing about different scenarios works...

Unless said scenario is the vast majority, it's a waste of time.
Winner is decided by what happens more often than not, not if their foe has a 5% chance to do something useful.

you cant expect the fight go the same way 100% of the time, so YEAH im going over different things Yuta can do to win, is that now wrong?

Slightly? It's not a good thing. If he has to many options, that's a bad thing if half those options just get himself killed.
You want to argue what's most likely to happen, like there's a 1% chance Fern says **** it let's lead with commoner magic that she's never used in a fight before, like yeah she CAN do it, but also she wouldn't and it's nowhere near often enough to be on the table as an actual point of discussion.

feels like you want me to just shut up

You've been incessantly arguing things that make legit no sense.

Your argument for noise pollution? "I wont respond to that".
Your argument for her danmaku? "It isn't as good as you say", even though I literally posted clips of the very scene I counted, as in, why the hell are you saying it's 8 a second when everyone here can see it's way more?
Your argument for her controlling her attacks? Giving her a brand new ability in auto tracking attacks which legit isn't a thing, and then just ignoring how in every fight she controls her beams to attack from all sides.
Your argument for the speed gap? I said 1 second and you're taking that to mean an actual 1 second from a normal human's sense of time when it was obvious what I meant.
Your argument for DPS? Basically ignoring context and statements in the manga, and taking literally one panel at a time and treating that as all that she did.
Almost every argument you have is from ignorance, or just denying what we can blatantly see, basically saying the sky isn't blue and expecting it to fly.

he can, her being quicker doesnt mean he cant,

Her being quicker means she reacts first everytime, which in turn, prevents him from doing so.

3x also isnt THAAT big

Dude, 50% is pretty big, 3x is asinine. For every 1 thing he even attempts to do, she's ALREADY done 3 things. In the time it takes him to do ONE thing, she's already got 3 actions off.

because she usually doesnt? her attacks will work, she most likely will just press more

Yep because that's what happened against Solitar right? That's sarcasm, if she isn't dealing meaningful damage, and it's not because of things like forcefields, she's gonna juice it up a bit.

Yours is flawed and exaggerated.

When your only rebuttal is "nuh uh", ignoring an oddly high amount of things, and just throwing out random values when the very thing I'm citing, has been posted for everyone to see so this isn't even a topic for debate, the only problem here is you.

because her 1 beam/draw was fast and unexpected, NOT because of her spam, why are you mixing it up

"ただ、速い. 純粋に手数でこの私が押されている.
"It's fast. I'm being pressured by the sheer number of spells she's casting" - him as he's being attacked multiple times.

Actually stop please. They literally say she's spamming and he's being overwhelmed by the quantity.

"rapid firing", and its yet again 2 beams in every single panel

"ただ、速い. 純粋に手数でこの私が押されている.
"It's fast. I'm being pressured by the sheer number of spells she's casting" - him as he's being attacked multiple times.
In your urge to completely ignore both the context and blatant visuals, you're just making yourself look bad. Like what, is the dude lying too now?

not like her style changed alot

It's gotten magnitudes better.

dont see different keys for fern,

Yeah because we only rate her for her current self? Most profiles only rate the most recent version of the character, not many verses actually go the DBZ route where there's a key for every lil power boost.
Doesn't change the fact Ch3 Fern =/= Ch 140 Fern for example.

but either way her being weaker isnt the same as her starting battles differently,

"It doesn't matter if early Fern could only do 4 sigils, modern Fern being able to do over 10 doesn't affect her at all".
Bro what?

i would ask for other examples of her insta spamming then, BUT im pretty sure it doesnt matter, no one here is changing their vote anyway

You kinda lost that right when you started latching onto a single panel and ignoring the very context of said panel anyway.

and "noise pollution" never stopped it,

Yeah probably because nothing overtly loud happened simultaneously?

if we use the anime like you did, there isnt some eardrum busting explosions going all the time, there rarely any loud sound tbh

imgur.com

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users.

imgur.com

????

5 remains 5, and you really make it sound like she's dozens of times faster

It really isn't my fault if you don't know what perspective, relative, and basic math means.
She legit may as well be given 1 action of her constitutes dozens of attacks.

they start in range so

Yeah, and? Yuta never leads with that, he's only did once, against Sukuna of all people.
You ignored the part that she's faster too, if given even a single second, or well to be more exact, like 0.07 seconds to get out of his CS range given her top flight speed, she's out of range and he's just screwed.
The fact her attacks are liable to explode could easily disorient him long enough for her to create a gap.
Of course she could also just damage boost but eh

manga?

Did you not check the calcs?
The small town value uses the anime for relevant shots.

i wasnt arguing that they wont do damage

You have, you've been saying he just regens. You can't have your cake and eat it too man.

why would you use an argument of "little girl" (not to mention Fern is older) on yuta then? he would also assume that she will cause severe harm to him per sba... you are contradicting yourself

Am I though? Last I checked it's her who's going to be quicker on the draw. Yuta can think whatever he wants, it's her who's going to attack and to adapt first in response.

that wasnt what we were talking abou-.. ugh, cmon, you said she can pierce spatial defense like SM, she cant

Jokes on you if she doesn't even realize it's a thing it might not even work

NLF not even listening

It isn't a NLF, man you really need to spruce up on your linguistics.
So far you've taken me saying "per second" to mean an actual second when it's obvious what I meant by that.
You've taken clairvoyance to mean PRECOGNITION for some reason.
And now you've taken me saying it was designed to pierce anything, which yuh huh that's what it do, duraneg to be a thing, to somehow mean NLF? Like hax exists. I'm not saying it pierced anything ever in all of media, do not be obtuse, but in context? Yeah anything that existed prior to Qaal gets voided. You said it was only in response to magic, I said no it's just anything, obviously within context but I didn't think such an obvious thing needed to be explained no?

But yes I'm aware you're not listening, that's beside the point.

dont take that out on me, actually yeah, you keep blaming me for simply following profiles, what did i do???

Because you asked?
Also you legit aren't following the profiles, if you were I wouldn't be listening to you argue for cursed speech.

doesnt have to outright punch her

Yes he does, or at least be right up on her ass. He's never getting that close.

im saying that her entire schtick isnt really her insta thing to do, and that her schtick isnt as strong and as overwhelming as you make it sound, THATS IT. we can disagree its fine

Not really because you're spreading misinfo.
There's no "I disagree she doesn't do this". You're wrong, even in the very scan you cling to, you're ignoring the fact in the text it says she's spamming attacks.
There's no "she can't fire that many", she can, does, and it's even been posted, there's nothing to disagree with here.

Like you know it's bad when your main example for her not doing it instantly, has the dude saying she's doing it instantly, idk what you want me to say here, you're just wrong.

i disagree with using anime as it strays off from how it looks in the original source

I mean, no offense, but I don't care what you want? We use it for equatable scenes. Fern doing DPS spam, in the manga, and then Fern doing the exact same thing, in the exact same scene, but it's just animated now, and we can actually tell how rapid the rapid fire is because it's actually in motion, is literally the type of thing we use anime for, for ANY manga.

You keep arguing she only fires two, when on that very page she's firing more, and in the text it's saying she's firing more, why do you think you get a say here?

When your whole argument hinges on manga being a static medium and straight up ignoring the very text on the page that saying she is rapid firing as opposed to singular shots, I wouldn't very much trust you anyhow.

still different lvls, one is clearly way weaker than the other

Uh, not really, huge town wide curses that instantly and would otherwise permanently effect huge groups of people instantly, is actually pretty damn high-end curse stuff even in JJK.

nah dont bother, this is basically finished

Well I mean, I'm gonna anyway, may as well update her profile a bit when I get a chance.

because i can, because why not?

Because arguing just to argue is in poor taste? What do you mean "because why not"? Like if you're gonna debate, do it for an actual reason, not for the sake of it.

if fern has small amount of ce shes getting controlled by yuta, since cs works based on the amount of CE you have

Yuh huh except
1. Funny booms because Yuta doesn't have a way to nullify her blasts like every other mage in her verse.
2. If she move sto far away he just can't regardless.
3. This assumes he gets a chance before she adapts and damage boosts.
4. This assumes he does this before any of his other options, as the more time he wastes doing stuff, the more likely he just dies.

Fern does not have better curse res, at all

Based on what exactly? We'll find out when it happens, but I wouldn't go "nuh uh", when at the very least she has 1 layer for it.

who said people were affected instantly? headcanon.

Monster encyclopedia?

Or that starrk has resistance to it? he doesnt, he was sleeping in a minute, tops, no proof its not the same for normal people

He has resistances to curses as a whole?
Bro why are you acting like that's the ONLY curse in Frieren? There's a bunch, there's a bunch of minor ones throughout, and then there's huge plot relevant ones like El Dorado (they dont resist this one tho).
Funny flower is just one among what's probably a dozen or so.

also do i have to bring up that "curses" in frieren is just what people call magic they cant yet dissect?

Still a curse.

how do we know how much it was till nightfall

It was afternoon when they arrived so had to of been at least 1-3 hours.

here and here inumaki doing something similar

Why'd it take bro almost 3 seconds to say one word?

 

[Catbowtie]

Chariot don't waste your time bruh Grace is almost over

 

[AThe1412]

Chariot don't waste your time bruh Grace is almost over

It's not about winning the debate. It's about sending a message.

 

[Mickey1940]

what's stopping Yuta from pulling out a megaphone and just saying "die" and Fern explodes

like what even is the argument for Fern winning? just range camping with attacks all significantly weaker than Yuta?

I want to mention that Yuta doesn't scale to 1.32 kilotons, he scales to 2.95 kilotons, as Uraume fought on par with Hakari, whom Yuta is frequently directly compared to. Rika is even stronger than that. Full Power Energy Blast is several times stronger than even that

Cursed speech gg, sky manip reflect Fern's projecitles gg, Domain Expansion gg cuz enclosed barrier and sure hit effect, Reversse Cursed Technique allows Yuta to literally stand the f*ck still and Fern can't do jack shit, especially since Yuta should naturally outlast Fern due to Reverse Cursed Technique and the fact that Fern has no way of threatening him in any capacity, meanwhile the reverse is definitely not true for Fern

heck if Yuta coped Yuji's Shrine then he also has Dismantle, invisible undetectable slashes gg

 

[Mickey1940]

Tanks? They're basically the same AP, regen? If she damage boosts he really can't, his regen is nowhere near good enough, hell his regen isn't even good enough without Mana density slop, JJK regen isn't exactly the greatest it's mid af. Especially given how many attacks a second he's dealing with, it's not just one or two wounds.

First of all, they're not the same AP

second of all, reverse cursed technique can work extremely quickly, especially due to how weak the attacks are. Yuta's RCT isn't far off from Gojo's, who is capable of tanking Malevolent Shrine at full blast. Malevolent Shrine is capable of turning an entire city into powder with potentially hundreds of millions of slashes, and Gojo could heal faster than that. At the very least, Yuta should have a much higher understanding and usage of Reverse Cursed Technique than Yuji, who could do the same thing Gojo did, albeit through Simple Domain which reduces the power of Malevolent Shrine, but was still getting barraged by slashes.

third of all, sky manip just ignores all of it and he can spam that

fourth of all, characters like Yuji can rage boost through dozens of instant slashes through sheer anger alone, as Yuji did so when Sukuna took over Megumi's body for the first time. Megukuna was STRONGER than Yuji at the time, and Yuji didn't even have Reverse Cursed technique, so just replace Yuji with Yuta (who's stronger), replace Megukuna with Fern (who's weaker), give Yuta regeneration, and make his opponent attack slower (Sukuna DEFINITELY attacks faster than Fern), and you get the same scenario.

 

[Robo432343]

fern fra

 

[Mickey1940]

fern fra

what reasons above

 

[Catbowtie]

3x faster dozens of projectile danmaku with damage boost to ignore Yuta's damage reduction

 

[Robo432343]

yuta gets overwhelmed with danmaku spam aoe range fuckery and the speed difference is too great

 

[Catbowtie]

"Change it to Sukuna so we can argue for Sukuna to Domain Expand and kill Fern!!!!"

 

[Robo432343]

bro leave goatuna out of this

 

[Chariot190]

First of all, they're not the same AP

They're effectively the same. They both upscale from around 1kt. Fern herself is a oneshot above her scaling actually too, so the whole "Yuta upscales" thing isn't gonna fly, they both upscale.

second of all, reverse cursed technique can work extremely quickly,

You realize she's faster right? By nearly 3x? Hell give me 5m and I can buff it to atleast 5x.

especially due to how weak the attacks are.

You realize they have like the same initial stat value right?

Yuta's RCT isn't far off from Gojo's, who is capable of tanking Malevolent Shrine at full blast.

That's cool, except pointless here. What happens when Fern boosts the mana density?

Malevolent Shrine is capable of turning an entire city into powder with potentially hundreds of millions of slashes, and Gojo could heal faster than that.

Who are you trying to fool here? You're conflating AOE and range, and range that's below her anyway (She has 20km+ range and attacks that can explode just as big as something like Fuga), and acting like Gojo was hit a million times, actually, hundreds of millions?
Show me, count even, I've read and watched his fights, and the most I remember is dozens.

Hell I just checked the Sukuna vs Maho fight from the anime, you can literally count how many slashes hit Maho, and it's about 1-3 every 2-3 frames~. So yeah, a few dozen. Total.

At the very least, Yuta should have a much higher understanding and usage of Reverse Cursed Technique than Yuji, who could do the same thing Gojo did, albeit through Simple Domain which reduces the power of Malevolent Shrine, but was still getting barraged by slashes.

Gojo being hit by a dozen slashes or whatever is not a hundred million, and is not on par with how many Fern is hitting him with. Hell, I'm not even sure Malshrine in the anime is exceeding her DPS with how many attacks hit a foe simultaneously, legit might be close to 10 less, then factor in the speed gap and it's only worse.
If she notices he's tanking, she can damage boost before he can counter as she is faster than him.
If she damage boosts, she one shots, as they have about the same AP to start, and her damage boost is enough to gore characters who can otherwise be unaffected by her attacks.

third of all, sky manip just ignores all of it and he can spam that

No he can't. He has to pull the space to cover, it only covers the area he, well, covers?
Fern can and will just avoid it, she can control every beam of her's freely and actively attacks from all angles.
Also she's faster in the time it takes him to pull space to cover in front of him, he's already been hit who knows how many times, probably around 40 given it's 12-14 sigils x3 speed.
Also she can spawn sigils on top of him.

fourth of all, characters like Yuji can rage boost through dozens of instant slashes through sheer anger alone,

This means literally nothing. Yuta isn't Yuji, and that's a anti-feat for the slashes, not for him.

as Yuji did so when Sukuna took over Megumi's body for the first time. Megukuna was STRONGER than Yuji at the time, and Yuji didn't even have Reverse Cursed technique, so just replace Yuji with Yuta (who's stronger), replace Megukuna with Fern (who's weaker),

Man, your whole argument just makes Sukuna look bad, not them look good.

You ignore how she can just control her beams so sky is an actual waste of time, he does that, and he dies, end of, it's not stopping anything.
You act like Gojo who is DEFINITELY above Yuta, got hit by a million slashes, he didn't, like goddamn and here I was being yapped at saying I was exaggerating, talk about ironic.
And you also ignore they literally both have upscaling on their values (her standard beams can break shields that the 1kt attacks cant effect) and she can amp further to where she can gore those her standard attacks can't even touch even if they just stand there and take it (literally happened).
And then you just ignore how she's faster, and is countering, reacting, and attacking before Yuta can do anything, and Yuta only really gets one chance, and only if she doesn't realize he isn't dead (which is pretty unrealistic) and not amp her attacks in turn.

give Yuta regeneration,

You're explaining why Fern would damage boost, and his regen is nowhere near good enough to come back from that, Fern aims for the heart in character, a damage boosted beam from her would void out Yuta's upper torso.

and make his opponent attack slower (Sukuna DEFINITELY attacks faster than Fern), and you get the same scenario.

He literally doesn't. Fern is 2.5x faster than Sukuna. Don't like it, go upgrade his ass.

 

[Chariot190]

Hundreds of millions.... (You can literally count every slash and it's less than 100 total for the entire sequence)....

 

[Mickey1940]

They're effectively the same. They both upscale from around 1kt. Fern herself is a oneshot above her scaling actually too, so the whole "Yuta upscales" thing isn't gonna fly, they both upscale.

Again, they're not. Yuta scales to this

You realize she's faster right? By nearly 3x? Hell give me 5m and I can buff it to atleast 5x.

Again, inferior characters can tank Malevolent shrine, which attacks much more frequently and are FAR stronger than Fern

You realize they have like the same initial stat value right?

Again, they don't. See my first point

That's cool, except pointless here. What happens when Fern boosts the mana density?

Again, Yuta is much stronger. He's still gonna ignore it

Who are you trying to fool here? You're conflating AOE and range, and range that's below her anyway (She has 20km+ range and attacks that can explode just as big as something like Fuga), and acting like Gojo was hit a million times, actually, hundreds of millions?
Show me, count even, I've read and watched his fights, and the most I remember is dozens.

check 0:59, he powderizes a phone and people and the entire surrounding area with individual slashes into nothing. Slashing a phone dozens of times doesn't leave literally dust/nothing behind, not to mention, Sukuna used the same move against other characters later on, and they all survived with RCT (sometimes + Simple Domain but it's the same effect, they survive being barraged several times in an instant for long durations by attacks on or above their level)

Hell I just checked the Sukuna vs Maho fight from the anime, you can literally count how many slashes hit Maho, and it's about 1-3 every 2-3 frames~. So yeah, a few dozen. Total.

again, check above

Gojo being hit by a dozen slashes or whatever is not a hundred million, and is not on par with how many Fern is hitting him with. Hell, I'm not even sure Malshrine in the anime is exceeding her DPS with how many attacks hit a foe simultaneously, legit might be close to 10 less, then factor in the speed gap and it's only worse.
If she notices he's tanking, she can damage boost before he can counter as she is faster than him.
If she damage boosts, she one shots, as they have about the same AP to start, and her damage boost is enough to gore characters who can otherwise be unaffected by her attacks.

Gojo was able to easily survive and function perfectly when constantly being shredded through a meat grinder, with the domain's sure hit effect spawning on top of him, inside him, and all over him

you're forgetting the fact that domain expansions attack ALL parts of you due to the sure-hit effect, including inside you, since it's spawning in the space you're taking up. Even if you argue that most domains don't actually spawn attacks IN you, Sukuna's definitely does since he explicitly makes Malevolent Shrine spawn random slashes EVERYWHERE in the domain in order to catch people under Heavenly Restriction, who are normally completely immune to the sure hit effect of domains due to lacking cursed energy

Fern spamming dozens of energy blasts per second pales in comparison to Sukuna turning things into powder

No he can't. He has to pull the space to cover, it only covers the area he, well, covers?
Fern can and will just avoid it, she can control every beam of her's freely and actively attacks from all angles.
Also she's faster in the time it takes him to pull space to cover in front of him, he's already been hit who knows how many times, probably around 40 given it's 12-14 sigils x3 speed.
Also she can spawn sigils on top of him.

anything he can't dodge he blocks, anything he can't block he facetanks, everthing else gets spacial warped, or Rika tanks it and regenerates due to being made up of cursed energy, etc.

speed really doesn't matter when Yuta has so many options to ignore the attacks to begin with, not to mention he has several instant kill options that can bypass Fern's mobility

This means literally nothing. Yuta isn't Yuji, and that's a anti-feat for the slashes, not for him.

You're right, he's not Yuji

He's stronger than Yuji

and why is that an anti feat for the slashes? Sukuna is objectively several times stronger than Fern even while weakened and yet not even Malevolent Shrine can fully kill people with Reverse Cursed technique

You ignore how she can just control her beams so sky is an actual waste of time, he does that, and he dies, end of, it's not stopping anything.
You act like Gojo who is DEFINITELY above Yuta, got hit by a million slashes, he didn't, like goddamn and here I was being yapped at saying I was exaggerating, talk about ironic.
And you also ignore they literally both have upscaling on their values (her standard beams can break shields that the 1kt attacks cant effect) and she can amp further to where she can gore those her standard attacks can't even touch even if they just stand there and take it (literally happened).
And then you just ignore how she's faster, and is countering, reacting, and attacking before Yuta can do anything, and Yuta only really gets one chance, and only if she doesn't realize he isn't dead (which is pretty unrealistic) and not amp her attacks in turn.

She controls them, he reflects, she brings them back, he reflects again. The match is not hard

And I'm saying that Shinjuku Showdown Yuji, a character with less understanding and less experience with RCT, could facetank Malevolent shrine with the help of a Simple Domain, which only negates the domain's sure-hit effect, even though the domain doesn't need sure hit effects to work, and therefore was still getting blended, yet Yuji could still survive through RCT

What do you think Yuta's gonna do if his opponent is not only fodder, but also barraging him with attacks he can't dodge?

he's gonna pull out a ******* megaphone and tell her to drop dead so he doesn't waste his time

you think he's gonna bother getting close when he can just do that?

You're explaining why Fern would damage boost, and his regen is nowhere near good enough to come back from that, Fern aims for the heart in character, a damage boosted beam from her would void out Yuta's upper torso.

Magic Projection & Damage Boost (1 Layer; Specifically against demons. Even her normal Zoltraak is far superior to Standard Offense Magic. She can make it even stronger by increasing the density of her magic)

Not only is this damage boost limited to just demons, even increasing the density of her attacks doesn't change the fact that she's still 3 times weaker and doesn't increase the calc she scales off to, not to mention damage boost means nothing when spacial bending exists and he can just ignore it

He literally doesn't. Fern is 2.5x faster than Sukuna. Don't like it, go upgrade his ass.

Yuta could facetank Malevolent Shrine, something that attacks so fast with invisible unblockable slashes that he can turn people and objects into powder. Heck if you want to take animation seriously, he can atomize things into literal nothing. How many SLASHES do you think that takes?

again, I need to prefice the fact that he's doing this with SLASHES. Not vaporization, not grinding, SLASHES. That's a HELL of a lot more work

even if Fern is several times faster, she still can't replicate that level of attack frequency

like I'm actually confused whyt I need to explain why Malevolent ******* Shrine can attack faster than Fern just blasting really fast

 

[Mickey1940]

3x faster dozens of projectile danmaku with damage boost to ignore Yuta's damage reduction

Damage boost that Yuta can ignore cuz he's just naturally that much stronger and said damage boost only really having an effect on Demons, and Yuta also having sky manip and RCT to just ignore everything Fern throws at him?

 

[Mickey1940]

Hundreds of millions.... (You can literally count every slash and it's less than 100 total for the entire sequence)....

the timestamp you had was just... sukuna's normal slashes

you didn't even see malevolent shrine...

heck the video doesn't even showcase malevolent shrine...

 

[Catbowtie]

said damage boost only really having an effect on Demons

That's actually wrong

Damage boost that Yuta can ignore cuz he's just naturally that much stronger

No?

Yuta also having sky manip and RCT to just ignore everything Fern throws at him?

Zoltraak breaks through Sky Manipulation. Also like, Yuta isn't going to be Sky Manipulating literal dozens of Danmaku that are moving 3x faster than him. Ryu Ishigori could never.

 

[Mickey1940]

That's actually wrong

The damage boost is not strong enough to actually harm Yuta even if it wasn't just restricted to demons

No?

Yes

Zoltraak breaks through Sky Manipulation. Also like, Yuta isn't going to be Sky Manipulating literal dozens of Danmaku that are moving 3x faster than him. Ryu Ishigori could never.

Sky manipulation bends space around the user so they can change the trajectory of incoming projectiles

Any attack entering said space also gets bended

why would the amount of attacks matter if said attacks are still entering said space and are still being bended

 

[Mickey1940]

Before anyone says "Hakari is stronger than Yuta", he's not as of the Shinjuku Showdown Arc

 

[Mickey1940]

Also, is no one going to talk about cursed speech anymore?

is the only argument of it not working "Zoltraak is really loud trust" when cursed speech can just be amplified louder even without the megaphone, and hearing isn't even required for cursed speech to activate?

You can't just cover your ears, you need to specifically reinforce your ears with cursed energy in order to block its effects, which Fern is not only able to do, but even if she could, she wouldn't be able to do without prior knowledge

 

[Chariot190]

Again, they're not. Yuta scales to this

Then get it added, his only stat value is lower. But that wouldn't matter, it'd just force Fern to damage boost immediately, which she could, given, she's faster so she'd otice first?

Again, inferior characters can tank Malevolent shrine, which attacks much more frequently and are FAR stronger than Fern

Attacks less frequently. I straight up counted that shit dude.
Inferior? Gojo isn't inferior.

Again, they don't. See my first point

Close enough, and arguing otherwise just makes her more likely to lead with damage boost.

Again, Yuta is much stronger. He's still gonna ignore it

"he'll ignore attacks that can oneshot gore things that things that one shot gore kt level stuff is unaffected by"
No he won't. I'd at the very least expect him to be 7-C flatout if that was such a case.

check 0:59, he powderizes a phone and people and the entire surrounding area with individual slashes into nothing.

Who gives a damn if a wall a kilometer away gets hit, you said hundreds of millions, I wanna see his ass hit a single target 100,000,000 times, in a very short fraction of time at that.

Slashing a phone dozens of times doesn't leave literally dust/nothing behind,

It would if you're tier 7? Hell slashing it once should be good enough.

not to mention, Sukuna used the same move against other characters later on, and they all survived with RCT (sometimes + Simple Domain but it's the same effect, they survive being barraged several times in an instant for long durations by attacks on or above their level)

Wow, several times? Show me a single character surviving hundreds instantly for example.

Yuta himself only got hit by a few of his slashes, and it made him bloody. He wasn't hit by dozens, hundreds, and sure af not millions. You can tell how many slashes actually struck him based on the surrounding cuts an environment splitting.

again, check above

I did. You're conflating AOE with actual targeted attacks, I shouldn't have to explain this.

Gojo was able to easily survive and function perfectly when constantly being shredded through a meat grinder, with the domain's sure hit effect spawning on top of him, inside him, and all over him

Gojo > Yuta.
And Gojo wasn't hit by millions, like legit just stop. You can literally count how many hit him.

you're forgetting the fact that domain expansions attack ALL parts of you due to the sure-hit effect, including inside you, since it's spawning in the space you're taking up. Even if you argue that most domains don't actually spawn attacks IN you, Sukuna's definitely does since he explicitly makes Malevolent Shrine spawn random slashes EVERYWHERE in the domain in order to catch people under Heavenly Restriction, who are normally completely immune to the sure hit effect of domains due to lacking cursed energy

And you just sabotaged your entire argument.
"spawn random-", so you mean they aren't actually all targeted at his foe? So you're confusing range with actual DPS? Sukuna could spawn a decillion slashes, that doesn't mean shit if if only a few dozen attack his foe at any given time.

Fern spamming dozens of energy blasts per second pales in comparison to Sukuna turning things into powder

Fern actually attacking her target with every single one eclipses Sukuna's random slop.

anything he can't dodge he blocks,

No he can't she's faster.

anything he can't block he facetanks,

Damage boost, but yeah sure argue he just lets himself get hit.

everthing else gets spacial warped,

Faster, she can control every one of her attacks manually, why are you clinging to such a useless ability? Yeah argue he wastes time pulling space so she can just hit him 100 more times for free.

or Rika tanks it and regenerates due to being made up of cursed energy, etc.

You realize Fern can CONTROL her attacks right? If she's aiming for Yuta, she's hitting Yuta.
She could hit both Rika and Yuta even, it isn't like she can't manually control every attack at once or spawn attacks on top of him.

speed really doesn't matter when Yuta has so many options to ignore the attacks to begin with,

And that's why he loses, because half his options are useless.
Jl? Doesn't work, good job wasting time.
Sky? Good job wasting time blocking maybe one shot while the other hundred just hit you.
DE? Yeah see this one is aight but given he's only ever lead with it once, against Sukuna of all people, lmao.
Cursed Speech? Yeah pretty useless when she has to actually hear it and her attacks explode.

not to mention he has several instant kill options that can bypass Fern's mobility

And she's faster, if she wants to damage boost, her attacks literally gore. And that's normal boosts, what would happen if she put most of her mana into one attack instead?
And not really, it would take her, 0.07 seconds to completely invalidate everything he has, that's how long it would take her to escape his range.
And how easy would that be? He can't follow her, she's faster so she's acting first, he leads with something dumb instead of DE and that's wasted time that just let's her cover that gap, even just being disoriented for less than half a second makes it so he can't do a thing anymore.

You're right, he's not Yuji

He's stronger than Yuji

Conflating stamina and rage induced power with Yuta who has legit 1 second to act or he loses, is not worth my time to explain why that's a huge false equivalence, which most of your arguments seem to be.

and why is that an anti feat for the slashes? Sukuna is objectively several times stronger than Fern even while weakened and yet not even Malevolent Shrine can fully kill people with Reverse Cursed technique

Literally isn't several times, if he was, they wouldn't be low 7-C, several times would put them in the next tier so, ya know, actively not true? This isn't even an opinion, if what you said was true they'd be a different tier, they aren't.

Also, RCT? Man you know that isn't passive right? That's something he has to do, manually.
Fern won't give him a chance like Sukuna did, and yes, did, let's not pretend Sukuna didn't just let people do shit, he was jobbing, Fern doesn't let up for even a second in her pressure in character.

The very fact you're arguing "yeah they can survive if they regen via this technique they manually use", isn't good, because that's an action, an action he has to think and decide to take, against a character who gets basically 3 actions for his every 1. By the time he does that, she's already acted accordingly.

She controls them, he reflects, she brings them back, he reflects again. The match is not hard

He is not deflecting like 40 blasts at the same time when they can just avoid his sky technique.
he literally can't, it is physically impossible for him to move his arms to pull the space to cover enough space to deflect them before hit.

In the time he moves his arms just HALF his body width, they're already covered that distance like 3 times over.
And it isn't one beam, it's dozens, on repeat.

You're basically arguing a boxer could deflect 40 arrows fired from every direction that will actively change trajectory to hit his blindspots, no, that isn't happening. Ever.

And I'm saying that Shinjuku Showdown Yuji, a character with less understanding and less experience with RCT, could facetank Malevolent shrine with the help of a Simple Domain, which only negates the domain's sure-hit effect, even though the domain doesn't need sure hit effects to work, and therefore was still getting blended,

Do you think arguing "hey these characters got mauled and cut up" is a good argument? You're basically just confirming Fern's attacks would land their mark, and she lands a hell of a lot more attacks than Sukuna the king of sandbagging does, and unlike him, she doesn't let up, she doesn't give them a chance to heal, and she can amp her attacks to get around them surviving the initial onslaught, before they can even think of what to do next.

yet Yuji could still survive through RCT

Surviving via regen that must be done manually, which isn't even that good, isn't an argument for surviving if Fern pours her mana into an attack before he can even think to do that.

What do you think Yuta's gonna do if his opponent is not only fodder, but also barraging him with attacks he can't dodge?

Die I'd think. Why is he getting a billion free actions here? He gets MAYBE one before Fern resorts to amping.
He doesn't get to do RCT, sky, JL, summon Rika, amp himself, and all this other shit, he gets maybe one action.

As said, in the time he takes to even think to do 1 action, Fern's already done multiple, and that goes for every action he can take, and that also goes for as he takes his said action she'd already got more off, and she can react to whatever he attempts to do, or even just the fact he isn't dead yet.

calling her fodder is a self sabotaging argument, if she's fodder why WOULD yuta resort to his best shit? He wouldn't, and in that lapse he just dies because she amps.

he's gonna pull out a ******* megaphone and tell her to drop dead so he doesn't waste his time

Not an option. She has to hear it, Yuta has no way to dissolve her beams, so they either pierce him and he dies, or they explode, as that's what they do.

you think he's gonna bother getting close when he can just do that?

Ok so you're arguing Yuta WON'T get close

Magic Projection & Damage Boost (1 Layer; Specifically against demons. Even her normal Zoltraak is far superior to Standard Offense Magic. She can make it even stronger by increasing the density of her magic)

Not only is this damage boost limited to just demons,

Reading literacy please.
Layered Magic projection is what's specifically against demons, via Demon Slaying magic. The damage boost is just damage boost, by increasing the density of her magic, which works on literally anything.

I'd ask you to not be actively disingenuous, it's beyond obnoxious.

even increasing the density of her attacks doesn't change the fact that she's still 3 times weaker and doesn't increase the calc she scales off to,

Her standard attacks already one shot the value she scales off of.
Her damage boost gores that which her standard attacks can't even touch.
Why are you being actively ignorant?

not to mention damage boost means nothing when spacial bending exists and he can just ignore it

It does when she can control her every attack, just avoid said spatial bending, the spatial bending in question is limited to just where he covers, and he has to physically do so which is a shit ton of wasted time.

Arguing sky is arguing he wastes what lil time he has doing a move that ultimately amounts to nothing and gives her even more free moves.

Yuta could facetank Malevolent Shrine, something that attacks so fast with invisible unblockable slashes that he can turn people and objects into powder. Heck if you want to take animation seriously, he can atomize things into literal nothing.

If I want to take the animation seriously, I can literally count how many slashes hit at a given time?
Which I did, less than 100 against Maho. Was about like 80 total so it was close but eh.

How many SLASHES do you think that takes?

I would pray 1 given he's 7-C. Even a tier 8 slash should atomize a person.

again, I need to prefice the fact that he's doing this with SLASHES. Not vaporization, not grinding, SLASHES. That's a HELL of a lot more work

No it isn't? huge like 100m slashes SHOULD shred everything.
The fact they're 7-C slashes, I would pray to god they vaporize things on contact.

They still carry force, you ever watch those videos of bullets hitting a target, and the area where they hit explode too? Unless Sukuna's slashes are actually mid af, yeah, actually, they should do exactly that especially given how big they are.

even if Fern is several times faster, she still can't replicate that level of attack frequency

She's a hell of lot better at actually hitting a target more frequently tho,

like I'm actually confused whyt I need to explain why Malevolent ******* Shrine can attack faster than Fern just blasting really fast

I'm confused why I need to explain why a fucktillion attacks that don't even hit the target and spawn sporadically, means nothing in regards to how many attacks actually hit your enemy in a given timeframe.


Anyway, you've argued that Yuta
1. Wouldn't even bother trying to get close to Fern (So she can just fly away without issue and he isn't going to close the gap or even try to apparently)
2. Do everything at once apparently because uh, he just can ig (he literally cant)
3. Spam sky (a technique that only covers where he pulls, an action he has to physically do, against numerous blasts that can not only outspeed him even attempting that, but moreover just avoid it).
4. Cursed Speech as if just one loud explosion won't invalidate it and given you argued Yuta won't even try to chase her, is double pointless because she can and will exit his maximum range with it in a fraction of a second while attacking simultaneously.
5. RCT as if that isn't a manual action and is something that needs to be done.

You've convinced me she wins even further if Yuta is going to play so dumb he doesn't even try to prevent her fleeing and leads with sky and cursed speech.

 

[Chariot190]

Also, is no one going to talk about cursed speech anymore?

is the only argument of it not working "Zoltraak is really loud trust" when cursed speech can just be amplified louder even without the megaphone,

Prove it's as loud as like a hundred of these


That's rhetorical, you can't.

and hearing isn't even required for cursed speech to activate?

It is, that's the way the profile frames it, go get the wording tweaked ig.
But no, you evidently do need to hear it, otherwise the range wouldn't be limited to how far speech can travel and still be audible.

You can't just cover your ears, you need to specifically reinforce your ears with cursed energy in order to block its effects, which Fern is not only able to do, but even if she could, she wouldn't be able to do without prior knowledge

Doesn't have to if a like 300 db blast and shockwave eats and distorts the waveform.
She doesn't need to know to protect against it because just her usual attack pattern works fine to undermine it.

Damage boost that Yuta can ignore cuz he's just naturally that much stronger and said damage boost only really having an effect on Demons, and Yuta also having sky manip and RCT to just ignore everything Fern throws at him?

You're digging a hole here, I'd maybe let this yap slide if you weren't being obtuse and deliberately reading the profile wrong and applying an extra effect on demons, to a completely unrelated effect.

 

[Catbowtie]

All this to say that Chariot made a really good argument for Fern making Sukuna her b****. Let's ship that battle when Chariot finishes his revisions so we can bother him EVEN MORE than he already is.

 

[Chariot190]

The damage boost is not strong enough to actually harm Yuta even if it wasn't just restricted to demons

I sure do love people resorting to just being wrong.
Demon Slaying Magic is what's layered, it works effectively good on demons. Demon Slaying Magic is Human Slaying Magic made effective against demons. That, is what's boosted for them.

Increasing her mana density, is unrelated to demons, she simply puts more mana into her attacks to make them stronger, basic straightfoward stuff. Just like Goku putting more ki into a kamehameha making it stronger.

This has nothing to do with demons or only works on demons, it's just amping the attack.
Also do not forget her demon slaying magic works just fine on humans and others, it just happens to work extra good against demons.

Yes

Uh, ya know looking at that calc, there's actually some shit that can definitely be done way better, and you def don't scale lines like that as straight or directly parallel when at an angled top down view. that's just wrong, at worst you whip out Pythagoras slop.

I'm gonna need to run this by some CGM. Might be higher, could be lower, but it needs a fix.
Edit: Actually why was it treated as a solid object, there's a bunch of empty space, it's probably inflated by a good 1.5x from that alone.

Sky manipulation bends space around the user so they can change the trajectory of incoming projectiles

Any attack entering said space also gets bended

why would the amount of attacks matter if said attacks are still entering said space and are still being bended

Because it only covers the area the space is pulled over, at no point in the manga did anyone cover their whole body, in the main example on profile even, it only covered the sides, top and bottom were vulnerable. This, is basically a waste of time against a character who just pivots her beams to attack said vulnerable spots.
This is also something he must do, while being bombarded, in the time it takes him to move his hands 0.5m, the beams already covered his whole body's length, and then some, do you not see the issue?

the timestamp you had was just... sukuna's normal slashes

you didn't even see malevolent shrine...

heck the video doesn't even showcase malevolent shrine...

You talking about when Maho walked through the cuts and was voided a bunch?
You can count them there too my dude, every fresh wound is a new cut, it's obnoxious af to count, but he isn't getting MILLIONS of new wounds per second. Honestly that might be just a hundred or so through the whole walk cycle? Like it's a lot but it def isn't thousands, i counted about 70 before I said **** it, but those 70 wounds were over a few seconds so.... Unless his cut rate on Maho exploded (it didn't), his attack rate on a single target isn't above Fern's, at least, not above her when you factor in the speed gap.

 

[Mickey1940]

Then get it added, his only stat value is lower. But that wouldn't matter, it'd just force Fern to damage boost immediately, which she could, given, she's faster so she'd otice first?

it literally is on his profile, "Kenjaku acknowledges that Yuta leads Jujutsu’s High's heavy hitters", including hakari, who fought and matched Uraume

Attacks less frequently. I straight up counted that shit dude.
Inferior? Gojo isn't inferior.

I hate the fact that I need to repeat myself

Y U J I

I T A D O R I

could withstand Malevolent shrine as well

and

Y U J I

I T A D O R I

has worse RCT than Yuta does

Close enough, and arguing otherwise just makes her more likely to lead with damage boost.

A damage boost doesn't cover a x3 AP gap, especially since Yuta also has cursed energy reinforcement, as several people mentioned already

"he'll ignore attacks that can oneshot gore things that things that one shot gore kt level stuff is unaffected by"
No he won't. I'd at the very least expect him to be 7-C flatout if that was such a case.

A 3 kiloton character with regeneration can safely ignore a barrage of 1 kiloton attacks, especially if he's able to regenerate fast enough to tank something on the level of Malevolent Shrine

Who gives a damn if a wall a kilometer away gets hit, you said hundreds of millions, I wanna see his ass hit a single target 100,000,000 times, in a very short fraction of time at that.

Wow, arguing with you is frustration

have u considered the fact that

if Sukuna can powderize a random wall/phone in his domain (powderize meaning hit so many thousands of times with SLASHES that it doesn't exist anymore0

he's probably also able to powderize the actual target of his domain?

which he has done?

he wiped out the population of Shinjuku with it?

you can see the people getting powderized in the scene?

the girl holding the phone I referenced got powderized too?

which you ignored? for some reason? because you're talking about some random ass wall?

am I talking to a wall? what is this? where are your critical thinking skills?

It would if you're tier 7? Hell slashing it once should be good enough.

this further convinces me that you didn't bother watching the clip. I refuse to repeat myself

Wow, several times? Show me a single character surviving hundreds instantly for example.

like this? where Yuji gets assblasted by Malevolent Shrine and then survives with shallow cuts cuz of RCT and Simple Domain?

Yuta himself only got hit by a few of his slashes, and it made him bloody. He wasn't hit by dozens, hundreds, and sure af not millions. You can tell how many slashes actually struck him based on the surrounding cuts an environment splitting.

Yuta's RCT upscales from Yuji's who got hit by Malevolent Shrine. Again, I've said this god knows how many times and your only retort is "nuh uh"

I'm tempted to say you've never watched JJK. Do you even know what Malevolent Shrine even does?

I did. You're conflating AOE with actual targeted attacks, I shouldn't have to explain this.

wdym? this specific point was trying to say "Yuta does not have the same initial stat value as Fern, he's 3 times stronger", and now you're talking about targeted attacks?

Gojo > Yuta.
And Gojo wasn't hit by millions, like legit just stop. You can literally count how many hit him.

Again, I feel like you have no idea what Malevolent Shrine actually does

I also, once again, feel like you didn't watch the clip
or read the manga

sukuna can turn stone into powder by slashing it several times

do you know what a slash is

he's not evaporating it through heat or power or smthn

he's cutting it in half

over and over

until rocks and concrete and people and everything in the vicinity is just dust and powder and smoke

how many individual cuts do you think it takes to do that

cut a piece of paper with scissors. How many slices do you need to cut it so finely that it turns into powder

more than however many ******* attacks fern can use, that's for sure

now try it on a god damn building

and now try it on an entire ******* city

how many slashes do you think you need to powderize a city if each slash cuts it in half

And you just sabotaged your entire argument.
"spawn random-", so you mean they aren't actually all targeted at his foe? So you're confusing range with actual DPS? Sukuna could spawn a decillion slashes, that doesn't mean shit if if only a few dozen attack his foe at any given time.

again

slice a person in half

count how many times you need to do that until not even blood or liquids or flesh or gore is left, just dust

why does it matter if his attacks aren't targeted? the number of attacks a person takes in the domain is enough to turn them into dust regardless, which is still more than Fern can do

Fern actually attacking her target with every single one eclipses Sukuna's random slop.

No he can't she's faster.

Damage boost, but yeah sure argue he just lets himself get hit.

Faster, she can control every one of her attacks manually, why are you clinging to such a useless ability? Yeah argue he wastes time pulling space so she can just hit him 100 more times for free.

idk man, these don't look like they're all homing attacks

even here she's not maneuvering her attacks around Ehre's shield. If she could just control her attacks manually, why are characters still able to block them with tiny barriers when the attacks can just zoop right aroung them like you say?

yes Fern is many times faster but Yuta using cursed energy reinforcement and literally just holding his sword in front of him AND having Rika watch his 6 AND RCT should be more than enough to block/survive all of them, at least long enough to just say "die" and Fern explodes

And that's why he loses, because half his options are useless.
Jl? Doesn't work, good job wasting time.
Sky? Good job wasting time blocking maybe one shot while the other hundred just hit you.
DE? Yeah see this one is aight but given he's only ever lead with it once, against Sukuna of all people, lmao.
Cursed Speech? Yeah pretty useless when she has to actually hear it and her attacks explode.

1. when did I ever mention Jacob's Ladder?
2. again, he warps all of the space around him. Other attacks that enter the space also just get warped.
3. why would he not use Domain Expansion here...?
4. again, no she doesn't, the cursed energy in that attack can still reach her. Preventing yourself from hearing it through covering your ears or using other sounds to drown it out doesnt work since the cursed energy is still there

And she's faster, if she wants to damage boost, her attacks literally gore. And that's normal boosts, what would happen if she put most of her mana into one attack instead?
And not really, it would take her, 0.07 seconds to completely invalidate everything he has, that's how long it would take her to escape his range.
And how easy would that be? He can't follow her, she's faster so she's acting first, he leads with something dumb instead of DE and that's wasted time that just let's her cover that gap, even just being disoriented for less than half a second makes it so he can't do a thing anymore.

1. You have to give me scans that Fern can not only spam, but actually injure characters 3 times stronger than her with her damage boost, especially characters with damage reduction and regeneration
2. every single time Fern fights, she never just runs away like a coward, she stands still, spams range, and dodges left and right when necessary. You're acting like Fern will immediately fly to the mesosphere and carpet bomb the entire area when she never does that in character
3. Yuta can't follow her, and he can't get close without getting hit, so when a LOT of his options immediately stop working, what do you think he's gonna ******* do? oh i don't know, use an option that works?

I also want to mention that Fern doesn't spam range as an opening move. She always starts on the defensive. She tends to use her shields and blasts to block attacks before spamming, which means Yuta will have plenty of time to realize "oh shit, this b*tch is ultra instinct dodging me and can block all of my attacks pretty well", then he just says "don't move" and Fern is dead on the spot

Conflating stamina and rage induced power with Yuta who has legit 1 second to act or he loses, is not worth my time to explain why that's a huge false equivalence, which most of your arguments seem to be.

Yuji opened his Simple Domain and RCT the instant Sukuna's Malevolent Shrine opened

the same Malevolent Shrine that can powderize everything in the vicinity within moments

also tf u mean conflating stamina and rage power? Yuta has WAY more cursed energy reserves than Yuji does, his stamina is way better

Literally isn't several times, if he was, they wouldn't be low 7-C, several times would put them in the next tier so, ya know, actively not true? This isn't even an opinion, if what you said was true they'd be a different tier, they aren't.

Weakened Sukuna scales above Uraume (and by extension, Yuta and Yuji) who can do this. So yes, he's objectively stronger. You do realize Fern is baseline, right? A character can be more than twice as strong as her and still be Low 7C, which every high tier in JJK is

Also, RCT? Man you know that isn't passive right? That's something he has to do, manually.
Fern won't give him a chance like Sukuna did, and yes, did, let's not pretend Sukuna didn't just let people do shit, he was jobbing, Fern doesn't let up for even a second in her pressure in character.

when did anyone ever mention Sukuna giving anyone a chance?

and Sukuna was definitely not jabbing. Did you read the manga at all

you're basically saying Fern can outspeed thought based regeneration just because she's faster

The very fact you're arguing "yeah they can survive if they regen via this technique they manually use", isn't good, because that's an action, an action he has to think and decide to take, against a character who gets basically 3 actions for his every 1. By the time he does that, she's already acted accordingly.

three blasts is not anywhere near enough to take Yuta down

several dozens of blasts is also not enough to take Yuta down

anything that isn't just straight up a kill move (which Fern lacks) means Yuta just regenerates and leaves it turned on for the rest of the battle

even if Fern spams range off rip (which she never does) he take a lot of hits and then just regenerates from it

He is not deflecting like 40 blasts at the same time when they can just avoid his sky technique.
he literally can't, it is physically impossible for him to move his arms to pull the space to cover enough space to deflect them before hit.

he grabs the sky with both hands Whitebeard style, spins around once, boom, he's covered. the range is BIG on this shit

In the time he moves his arms just HALF his body width, they're already covered that distance like 3 times over.
And it isn't one beam, it's dozens, on repeat.

again, he's durable enough and can regen fast enough to facetank this without all of the other stuff I've already mentioned. If he goes for sky manip, any hits he already took will just regenerate and now he's ok, and if he spams that, he can reduce the number of attacks he ends up taking, which is a big step in the right direction

I'm not trying to argue he negates LITERALLY everything cuz I admit that's not possible, but blocking/deflecting a sizeable portion means that he regenerates even easier than he already does

You're basically arguing a boxer could deflect 40 arrows fired from every direction that will actively change trajectory to hit his blindspots, no, that isn't happening. Ever.

First of all, if Fern could target his blindspots freely, she would do so against every mage she's fought without a fully constructed forcefield. Heck, Ehre was using micro shields to block EVERYTHING she had for like a solid 20 seconds. If Fern could just target blindspots, she would have maneuvered all of her attacks to miss the shields, but she couldn't do that

Second of all, the "boxer" (yuta) can regenerate, and the "arrows" (Zoltraaks) don't do that much damage at all since the boxer's skin is too resilient (sincee yuta is way more durable)

Do you think arguing "hey these characters got mauled and cut up" is a good argument? You're basically just confirming Fern's attacks would land their mark, and she lands a hell of a lot more attacks than Sukuna the king of sandbagging does, and unlike him, she doesn't let up, she doesn't give them a chance to heal, and she can amp her attacks to get around them surviving the initial onslaught, before they can even think of what to do next.

see above, Sukuna in Malevolent Shrine doesn't let up cuz he can't, attacks faster cuz that's how the domain works, and her amp is pointless against a character 3 times stronger than her with their own defensive amp

Die I'd think. Why is he getting a billion free actions here? He gets MAYBE one before Fern resorts to amping.
He doesn't get to do RCT, sky, JL, summon Rika, amp himself, and all this other shit, he gets maybe one action.

RCT and Rika are thought based, sky manip is swinging his arms

you're basically saying Yuta gets evaporated on the spot when Fern literally never does that

the instant Ehre gets hit once it created a massive explosion and Ehre got knocked out, and Fern immediately stopped attacking her

Fern is attacking someone who doesn't have the ability to block with shields. If she blasts him once, she's gonna stop blasting him, as shown in every single one of her fights in canon. If she does that, Yuta gets up and kills her

calling her fodder is a self sabotaging argument, if she's fodder why WOULD yuta resort to his best shit? He wouldn't, and in that lapse he just dies because she amps.

Cursed Speech is definitely NOT his "best shit"

neither is sky manipulation

neither is Dismantle

Not an option. She has to hear it, Yuta has no way to dissolve her beams, so they either pierce him and he dies, or they explode, as that's what they do.

no she doesn't. She needs to specifically use cursed energy to protect her ears, and then her brain

And then you realize she has no cursed energy
so she can't block it

even with verse equalization, she can't block it either since she has no prep time

Ok so you're arguing Yuta WON'T get close

yes? if Fern starts blasting it makes no sense that Yuta could just dodge it and reach her

yeah the blasts won't hurt too much and yeah he can regenerate from all of them, but that doesn't mean he's going to even want to get close and just endure all of the blasts when he has several other better options that don't require him to get close.

Reading literacy please.
Layered Magic projection is what's specifically against demons, via Demon Slaying magic. The damage boost is just damage boost, by increasing the density of her magic, which works on literally anything.

yes I realized this.

Her standard attacks already one shot the value she scales off of.
Her damage boost gores that which her standard attacks can't even touch.
Why are you being actively ignorant?

no they don't
Clone Frieren was still able to block several of her attacks, only losing cuz:
1. She used up mana to fight literally herself. A mage's shields AND durability are dependent on their mana reserves, as they're just as durable as any other person otherwise
2. Frieren herself stated that Fern is faster than her and therefore Fern was able to overwhelm the clone and get unblocked hits in
3. The clone was still standing, she just lost her arms
4. Yuta is still significantly stronger than the calc Fern scales to

It does when she can control her every attack, just avoid said spatial bending, the spatial bending in question is limited to just where he covers, and he has to physically do so which is a shit ton of wasted time.

Arguing sky is arguing he wastes what lil time he has doing a move that ultimately amounts to nothing and gives her even more free moves.

this is just one of the many abilities he has to block her attacks, not to mention, again, he doesn't need to block to begin with cuz he's stronger and RCT is fast.

If I want to take the animation seriously, I can literally count how many slashes hit at a given time?
Which I did, less than 100 against Maho. Was about like 80 total so it was close but eh.

if you want to take animation seriously, he erased everything into nothing by slashing

like nothing visible left

that's a lot of slashing

and that's a lot more than 100

I would pray 1 given he's 7-C. Even a tier 8 slash should atomize a person.

pretty sure cutting something in half doesn't atomize it. I've cut a few birthday cakes myself, and the cake didn't just nuke itself into nothingness

Sukuna's slashes in the series have never just disintegrated people on contact, he's always cut them. His Domain Expansion actually disintegrates things

not because the slashes jumped tiers, but because he's slashing them so many times that there's nothing left to divide by 2 anymore.

Again, I don't think you know how Malevolent Shrine works

They still carry force, you ever watch those videos of bullets hitting a target, and the area where they hit explode too? Unless Sukuna's slashes are actually mid af, yeah, actually, they should do exactly that especially given how big they are.

then explain how
1. Sukuna has never disintegrated anything with his Cleaves or Dismantles despite all of them carrying his AP
2. Malevolent Shrine, the technique that is explicitedly stated to "relentlessly slashes apart anything until nothing but dust remains" to such an extent that he reduces organic and inorganic matter to nothing through multiple miniscule slashes, CAN disintegrate things

do I need to explain this any more

domain expansion

the technique

that spams slashes

can disintegrate people

while normal, individual slashes

can't disintegrate people

HMMMMM I WONDER WHY THAT'S THE CASE

She's a hell of lot better at actually hitting a target more frequently tho,

Fern's homing attacks are better than the sure hit effect of a domain?

attacks in a domain expansion do not exist until they hit their target

meaning they instantly land

and Sukuna can spam these

yes, he's annihilating the surroundings as well, but his accuracy in his domain is so good that his attacks literally spawn on/inside people

his domain slashes can spawn on and inside people literally instantly, yet people like Gojo and Yuji can take them and respond fast enough to regenerate. Why would Yuta be an exception?

I'm confused why I need to explain why a fucktillion attacks that don't even hit the target and spawn sporadically, means nothing in regards to how many attacks actually hit your enemy in a given timeframe.

when a domain's sure hit effect already allows him to powderize his intended target, you can probably assume that the attacks intended to hit his target alone are already enough to surpass Fern's number of attacks per second
Mahoraga literally got turned into blood the instant the domain opened, and his blood turned into nothing an instant after. That Domain Expansion was comparable to the Domain Expansion he released against Yuji and the others in Shinjuku, yet people like Yuji could still regenerate from it.

Anyway, you've argued that Yuta
1. Wouldn't even bother trying to get close to Fern (So she can just fly away without issue and he isn't going to close the gap or even try to apparently)
2. Do everything at once apparently because uh, he just can ig (he literally cant)
3. Spam sky (a technique that only covers where he pulls, an action he has to physically do, against numerous blasts that can not only outspeed him even attempting that, but moreover just avoid it).
4. Cursed Speech as if just one loud explosion won't invalidate it and given you argued Yuta won't even try to chase her, is double pointless because she can and will exit his maximum range with it in a fraction of a second while attacking simultaneously.
5. RCT as if that isn't a manual action and is something that needs to be done.

You've convinced me she wins even further if Yuta is going to play so dumb he doesn't even try to prevent her fleeing and leads with sky and cursed speech.

1. she never does this in character literally ever. She stays on the ground and starts blasting, only flying when her opponent has wide reaching attacks or also flies, which Yuta doesn't really have either (besides Cursed Speech which she can't react to, and Full Power Energy Blast which obviously she can dodge)
2. Summoning Rika, RCT, and using Cursed Energy Reinforcement are all instant, and there's no reason why he wouldn't be able to do all of this at once.
3. except again, not only is her manipulating her blasts questionable to begin with due to her fight against Ehre, but even if she could, Yuta can easily just bend all of the space around him, there's nothing stopping him from doing so besides time, and time isn't an issue cuz he can facetank, and also because of the facetanking he doesn't even need sky manipulation to begin with
4. Again, drowning out the sound doesn't work since the cursed energy is still there. She hears Yuta a single time and she's completely cooked. Not to mention, Fern has no reason to spam blasts against a character who can't block them. She uses it against mages cuz mage shields are a thing she's trained her fighting style to counter due to her speed, but against someone who can't block to begin with, she never spams blasts

He prevents her from fleeing by just saying "don't move", and then it's gg

 

[Mickey1940]

Prove it's as loud as like a hundred of these

again, sound is not a factor for cursed speech

don't ask my why

cursed speech is stupid

not hearing the attack is never mentioned to be a weakness in the verse because the cursed energy touching you = you're affected by it

it's stupid but that's how it works

It is, that's the way the profile frames it, go get the wording tweaked ig.
But no, you evidently do need to hear it, otherwise the range wouldn't be limited to how far speech can travel and still be audible.

again, it's not for some reason

I went out of my way to see if making yourself deaf works, and according to Kamo, the cursed energy is the problem

heck it was even able to affect Hanami, who doesn't have any physical ears, simply because he was exposed to the cursed energy

 

[Mickey1940]

I sure do love people resorting to just being wrong.
Demon Slaying Magic is what's layered, it works effectively good on demons. Demon Slaying Magic is Human Slaying Magic made effective against demons. That, is what's boosted for them.

"Not only is this damage boost limited to just demons, even increasing the density of her attacks doesn't change the fact that she's still 3 times weaker and doesn't increase the calc she scales off to, not to mention damage boost means nothing when spacial bending exists and he can just ignore it"

I literally mentioned why even the "increase density" part doesn't do jack

you seem to enjoy insulting me more than actually reading what I'm saying

Uh, ya know looking at that calc, there's actually some shit that can definitely be done way better, and you def don't scale lines like that as straight or directly parallel when at an angled top down view. that's just wrong, at worst you whip out Pythagoras slop.

I'm gonna need to run this by some CGM. Might be higher, could be lower, but it needs a fix.
Edit: Actually why was it treated as a solid object, there's a bunch of empty space, it's probably inflated by a good 1.5x from that alone.

i mean hey if you're gonna make a CRT about this go ahead, I'll gladly take back everything I said about this match if you succeed

Because it only covers the area the space is pulled over, at no point in the manga did anyone cover their whole body, in the main example on profile even, it only covered the sides, top and bottom were vulnerable. This, is basically a waste of time against a character who just pivots her beams to attack said vulnerable spots.
This is also something he must do, while being bombarded, in the time it takes him to move his hands 0.5m, the beams already covered his whole body's length, and then some, do you not see the issue?

She never pivots her attacks to avoid obstacles or shields, why would she do it here?

If she was able to, why has she never done it before?

shields and other magics would be completely pointless against Fern if she could just maneuver her attacks around them, but how come in all 3 of her actual fights, she resorted to just overwhelming speed? why go through all that effort?

You talking about when Maho walked through the cuts and was voided a bunch?
You can count them there too my dude, every fresh wound is a new cut, it's obnoxious af to count, but he isn't getting MILLIONS of new wounds per second. Honestly that might be just a hundred or so through the whole walk cycle? Like it's a lot but it def isn't thousands, i counted about 70 before I said **** it, but those 70 wounds were over a few seconds so.... Unless his cut rate on Maho exploded (it didn't), his attack rate on a single target isn't above Fern's, at least, not above her when you factor in the speed gap.

Mahoraga literally did not get cut

He adapted past the concept of slashing to ignore everything

Mahoraga got powderized, came back after adapting, and then just ignored literally everything

Mahoraga would have won if Sukuna didn't use his Fire Arrow, a move Mahoraga had yet to adapt to

 

[Jaynic1]

Honestly I was unaware that yuta's durability scales over 3x fern's ap. I think this should be made clearer on the profile and it does change my opinion on this match. But grace is over anyways so unless this thread is remade as a rematch since important information was skipped I dont see a point in continuing.

 

[Zabazab]

Honestly I was unaware that yuta's durability scales over 3x fern's ap

It doesn't. According to his profile he scales to 1.32 kilotons. Given the 2.95 kiloton feat was also a creation feat, I'm not sure why he would scale to it.

 

[Mickey1940]

It doesn't. According to his profile he scales to 1.32 kilotons. Given the 2.95 kiloton feat was also a creation feat, I'm not sure why he would scale to it.

Uraume scales to this level of power, who fought Hakari, whom Yuta is stronger than by a small margine

are creation feats not scaled to the character? I'm not too sure how much of a difference that makes

 

[Catbowtie]

It really depends on the energy system the verse has. If JJK had a UES then Yuta would scale to it, but it seems like JJK doesn't.

 

[Epyriel]

are creation feats not scaled to the character? I'm not too sure how much of a difference that makes

Creation feat are only assumed to scale to the character by default if the verse’s magic system has been accepted to be either an NPES (for other abilities from the verse’s magic system to scale) or a UES (for physicals to also scale).

 

[Chariot190]

All this to say that Chariot made a really good argument for Fern making Sukuna her b****. Let's ship that battle when Chariot finishes his revisions so we can bother him EVEN MORE than he already is.

It's more that other dude's revisions, I'm just gonna throw a few things at him to add.

it literally is on his profile, "Kenjaku acknowledges that Yuta leads Jujutsu’s High's heavy hitters", including hakari, who fought and matched Uraume

Yeah sucks that we don't scale shit like that directly tho

I hate the fact that I need to repeat myself

Y U J I

I T A D O R I

could withstand Malevolent shrine as well

Yep with gaping wounds and uh, ya know what, no he didn't?
Your definition of "withstand" is odd, I wouldn't consider giant gaping wounds that Sukuna let him recover from as withstand, or a held back Mal as withstanding.

and

Y U J I

I T A D O R I

has worse RCT than Yuta does

Oh you mean the active thing one must manually use?

A damage boost doesn't cover a x3 AP gap, especially since Yuta also has cursed energy reinforcement, as several people mentioned already

If it was a 3x gap, they wouldn't be low 7-C. They are, tough luck.
A 3x gap with a feat that really shouldn't be used to begin with, I'll deal with that later but the calc is bad, looking it over it's inflated twice over.

Cursed Energy Reinforcement? Oh you mean the thing he has to actively choose to do?

A 3 kiloton character with regeneration can safely ignore a barrage of 1 kiloton attacks, especially if he's able to regenerate fast enough to tank something on the level of Malevolent Shrine

A not 3 kt character because he would no longer even be the tier we rate him at, is not safely tanking attacks that are two one shots over attacks above 1 kt.

He actually can't regenerate that fast? Sukuna basically let him.

Wow, arguing with you is frustration

And so is arguing in a match that already concluded.

have u considered the fact that

if Sukuna can powderize a random wall/phone in his domain (powderize meaning hit so many thousands of times with SLASHES that it doesn't exist anymore0

9-B sukuna.....

he's probably also able to powderize the actual target of his domain?

Uh, nope because that isn't what happens. We can literally count the attacks that hit a specific target.

So, no, he isn't hitting a single target a hundred million times, or even a hundred, he's restricted to what we actively see, and in every instance, the slashes that attack random stuff because they just spawn randomly, has zero effect on the total amount and rate of attack he can do against a single entity.

which he has done?

Sukuna has never, at any point, throughout both the manga and anime, attacked a single target with even 1/10000th of the attacks youre claiming he can do.

The single most intense sequence, is against Maho, and while a lot and quite extensive, dozens a second, while countless slashes just so happen to be going off everywhere else, doesn't mean the attacks that arent even hitting him, is hitting him.

You're framing this as if every attack that spawns in the domain, simutaneously hits the target at the same time. It doesn't.

This didn't happen to Maho, Gojo, Yuta, Yuji, etc. They were only struck with a negligible fraction of the total amount, we can even figure out how many hit them based on the resulting wounds, hatch marks, and sliced environment that spatially occupied.

he wiped out the population of Shinjuku with it?

I do not give a shit if he can attack a billion targets with a billion attacks, if he can only hit an individual target with a dozen attacks.

You're twisting what's actually happening and framing it as "oh Sukuna can do a lot of attacks so [character] can tank a bunch!", when that is very much not what happens.

You wanna argue that? Show me say, Gojo, surviving a million slashes at the same time.

you can see the people getting powderized in the scene?

Yep, him having big range doesn't mean he attacks a specific foe at a quicker rate.
Like he legit just doesn't, that doesn't happen. The current highest sequence is against Maho, which is also the scene this happens in, Maho is NOT taking every slash that occurs in the domain, he's taking a small fraction because they, in your own words mind you, spawn randomly.

Unless you're arguing that they power people so it was a bunch of slashes? Bro, 1 slash would powder a normal person, try again.

the girl holding the phone I referenced got powderized too?

As above.

which you ignored? for some reason? because you're talking about some random ass wall?

I didn't think I had to explain my point to this extent. A wall, a person, literally EVERYTHING BUT HIS MAIN ENEMY, do not matter. All that matters, is how many attack he can land on a specific individual at a given time. It is not hundreds of millions like you claim, it is not single millions, it is not hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands, thousands, or hell even hundreds. It's dozens. And it's dozens ONLY because of the anime, which I'm granting you here out of fairness.

am I talking to a wall? what is this? where are your critical thinking skills?

Idk where are you gonna be once I report you?

this further convinces me that you didn't bother watching the clip. I refuse to repeat myself

I watched it and spent like 90 frames counting that shit one by one, took me about 5 minutes.
You are arguing, that Sukuna, with tier 7 slashes, slashing randomly, over a large area, with huge hundred meter long slashes, dusting 10-C to 9-B substances instantly, is him somehow hitting a target innumerable times, when really, it's just one slash and what that slash hits gets obliterated because why wouldn't it?

We can see, using an actual lasting target, Maho, how many times something is struck, and how quickly, it is not the same as your claims.

like this? where Yuji gets assblasted by Malevolent Shrine and then survives with shallow cuts cuz of RCT and Simple Domain?

Please don't link me virus riddled sites, just clicking that set off my firewall holy shit.

But nah, nice try, "because of SIMPLE DOMAIN and RCT". As in, things he had to manually use, things that take time to use, things that Yuta won't get a chance to use here, you mean?

Yuta's RCT upscales from Yuji's who got hit by Malevolent Shrine. Again, I've said this god knows how many times and your only retort is "nuh uh"

My retort is actually taking into account the speed gap, and the fact RCT is something he must manually do. Fern is quicker on the draw, she is attacking first, and she is also reacting to him not going down first, before he gets even his first action in.

I'm tempted to say you've never watched JJK. Do you even know what Malevolent Shrine even does?

200m AOE where Sukuna's slashes basically auto spawn on repeat attacking everything within the expansion until it is deactivated, no?
That's rhetorical, that's exactly what it does, you yourself even said as much yourself.

Now, how is that a retort? Are you trying to say we can't can't how many attacks actually hit the characters? Because we can, we see the aftermath of the slashes.

wdym? this specific point was trying to say "Yuta does not have the same initial stat value as Fern, he's 3 times stronger", and now you're talking about targeted attacks?

Bro's about to be barely 30% stronger no thanks to you

Not that it matters because that legit isn't the case anyway.

Again, I feel like you have no idea what Malevolent Shrine actually does

I do, starting to think you don't tho. Do you think EVERY slash hits the target? Because like, it don't?
They're random, a slash gutting a wall across town, isn't hitting the dude 5ft in front of Sukuna. They're striking different targets.

You're acting like every single individual slash hits every single target at the same time, they don't, I'm not sure why you even think this given you can literally count how many cuts or wounds they get, and the anime helps too as the slashes are literally drawn as quick 1 frame black cuts.

I also, once again, feel like you didn't watch the clip
or read the manga

I will actively circle everything and treat it like you're 5 if that is what is required of me to cease this.

Though, notwithstanding I have (really wish i didn't tho, shit was a waste of time), if your rebuttal is "you didnt watch", why are your arguments blatantly wrong that anyone who has read even 5m of Frieren would know isn't true like your incessant claims that Fern's mage boost only works against demons for some baffling reason? Like if you wanna point and accuse, please don't be guilty of that very thing.

sukuna can turn stone into powder by slashing it several times

I would PRAY the 7-C can turn a rock into powder slashing it ONE time. In fact, not even, I want that rock reduced to dust from the mere pressure of the slash before it even makes contact.

do you know what a slash is

More than you it would appear. Do you not think a 7-C cut would obliterate things on contact?

he's not evaporating it through heat or power or smthn

He literally is. If they lacked power they wouldn't be able to cut anything to begin with, they'd be unable to overcome the shear strength of any object.
Unless you wanna argue his cuts don't have power behind them but instead are hax? But, well, go make a CRT.

he's cutting it in half

over and over

Yeah, except when he isn't. It isn't like his cuts have an infinitesimally small cross section, they're actually pretty damn thick, hell when he cuts Maho across the chest on the street, one of the cuts makes a 30cm gash on a random wall, plus going by the cut wounds that dudes obtain, such as Yuji being cut like 8 timesish.

until rocks and concrete and people and everything in the vicinity is just dust and powder and smoke

Yeah, 7-C.
Also nobody is saying his domain isnt filled with cuts, but it being filled with attacks, and every one of those attacks hitting a single target, are not the same, you're acting like they are.

how many individual cuts do you think it takes to do that

Realistically? 1 given how strong he is.
based on the anime and how many we see? Idk probably a handful of thousand?

But again, you're confusing that with how many he can attack a single person with at once.

cut a piece of paper with scissors. How many slices do you need to cut it so finely that it turns into powder

If you swung a supersonic razor at a piece of paper, you'd legit disintegrate as you cut it.

more than however many ******* attacks fern can use, that's for sure

Someone's getting a lil frisky no?
Now how many of those attacks actually hit Sukuna's target.
How many cuts did Yuta, Yuji or Gojo actually take?

This is rhetorical as I already checked, not even dozens.

now try it on a god damn building

Given his slashes are as big as said buildings at times? Less than you think.

and now try it on an entire ******* city

Yeah you def don't get there's a difference between AOE and actual pressure. Ignoring it isn't a city but just 200m.

I may as well argue Fern eclipses anyway because her attacks can explode so they cover just as big a range, except more because she's faster so it's secretly like a dozen of Sukuna's domain expansions at once.

See how silly that is? You're conflating two different aspects.

how many slashes do you think you need to powderize a city if each slash cuts it in half

As above.

Sukuna could have 1,000,000,000,000,000 slashes in his domain at a given time (he doesnt have even 1% of that but for argument's sake), that doesn't matter if his foe is only struck by say, 30 of those.
The fact each slash is actually extremely long, pretty thick, and also 7-C, also lowers that value anyway.

snip

Done repeating myself, it'd just be the same thing I said 3 times this post, again.

why does it matter if his attacks aren't targeted?

?????????????????????????????????????????????????
Gee idk, because all of Fern's attacks are targeted an actually hit their mark?

Why does it matter that 99.999999% of Sukuna's attacks don't actually hit, only only 0.000001% do?
Why does that matter when you're arguing and framing it like because he has so many slashes at once, characters "tanking" (they dont even tank it they get wounded), that "oh gojo survived slashes from him" to mean him surviving like a dozen or so means he can survive 38x3 attacks moment to moment that ACTUALLY hit their mark and not a wall across town, is a tremendous false equivalence?

the number of attacks a person takes in the domain is enough to turn them into dust regardless,

Except it isn't.
If that was the case, the characters you keep bringing up would be uh, dead?
No, it can turn normal 10-B humans to dust, which I sure af hope it could.
If Sukuna couldn't dust a human with huge tens of meters long slashes that are like a handful of inches thick, based on the cut marks of people who can actually tank them, that are packing nuke lv power, while launched at a rate that pushes back characters that are in the mach range, I would legitimately call him pathetic.

which is still more than Fern can do

It legit isn't, you're using the anime right? Count the slashes that actually hit Maho every frame, go on, do it, I'll wait.

And then come back to me so I can show you how many of Fern's attacks hit every frame.
And then factor in the speed gap.

idk man, these don't look like they're all homing attacks

Of course not, she was getting her into position.
And double of course not because Zoltraak doesn't home, she manually controls it.
Also also, that character is triple Yuta's speed.

even here she's not maneuvering her attacks around Ehre's shield. If she could just control her attacks manually, why are characters still able to block them with tiny barriers when the attacks can just zoop right aroung them like you say?

Oh god, you didn't read the thread huh?

Mages simply choose to manifest small defenses, this, is a good thing as it saves mana.

imgur.com

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users.

imgur.com

Start of the manga, the very first thing we learn about mage combat, defense magic even.
they can curve attacks, they can use to go around defenses and strike blindspots, this is the most basic combat training.
We learn that "hey doing that is actually dumb, instead just manifest a shield in a specific place wherever you'd be hit".

Which is something EVERY mage she's ever fought has done.

imgur.com

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users.

imgur.com

Here's 3 examples within a few chapters of each other.

She's always attacking from a bunch of angles and directions, the fact mages have thought based forcefields that can spawn hexagonal magic null defenses all around them, is something Yuta doesn't have.
Yuta needs to physically grab space, pull, and only where he pulled is he protected, so what do you think Fern is gonna do? Just curve around where he pulled like she's been trained since adolescence to do, and has done multiple times since.

So, why doesn't she curve around the tiny forcefield? Because her enemy would just make it BIGGER. She can't curve it around defense magic, it's thought based, spawns instantly, and can be spawned anywhere around the person, and once her beam hits it, the beam is gone as the defense magic has runes that nullify it built in. So, Fern exploits that, in that fight, by forcing her to block from all directions to the point she just gets overwhelmed and blown out.

yes Fern is many times faster but Yuta using cursed energy reinforcement and literally just holding his sword in front of him AND having Rika watch his 6 AND RCT should be more than enough to block/survive all of them, at least long enough to just say "die" and Fern explodes

"Yeah Fern is faster but Yuta gets 20 free actions so he wins".

Bro is getting 1 action if he's lucky.

Cursed Energy Reinforcement? 1 action, has to decide to do that, by the time he does, Fern has already take 3 actions.
Sword in front of him? Literally just avoid it, what sort of argument is this?
RCT? If he's already been blasted enough to where he does that, Fern would already know he's to durable to spam and to boost her magic.
Rika? Bro Rika slow af too.
Cursed Speech? I'll wait for you to either make a CRT to change that Cursed Speech works even if you don't hear it and to change the profile, or prove he can magnify the soundwave to the extent nuclear overpressure won't annihilate it.

1. when did I ever mention Jacob's Ladder?

In general.

2. again, he warps all of the space around him. Other attacks that enter the space also just get warped.

Literally never happened. It only warps the space he pulls said space over, Fern can and will blitz that and avoid where he pulls.
This doesn't cover him completely, the best example of it, took not only a huge action to pull off, but still had multiple blindspots.

3. why would he not use Domain Expansion here...?

Good question, why didn't he do it in any of his fights ever?

Also you don't get how this works, Yuta doesn't get all these actions, you're arguing he summons Rika, summons a megaphone and starts yapping, uses sky to block stuff, etc, NO he doesn't, he's slower, he's not getting the time to do all of this, he's dead if he picks wrong or plays his cards poorly, you've basically argued he just lets her piss off even prior too. You're sabotaging him if anything.

DE is a good option for him, but would he use that as his lead? If not, dead. Would he do so before Fern boosts? Hard to say.

4. again, no she doesn't, the cursed energy in that attack can still reach her. Preventing yourself from hearing it through covering your ears or using other sounds to drown it out doesnt work since the cursed energy is still there

Oh yes she does, if you don't like that lil tidbit I suggest you go change every profile with Cursed Speech, because that's how it's explained on wiki, that's how it's framed on wiki, and tbh that's logically how it works anyway because at that point why would the range of the soundwave even matter? The cursed energy is still, regardless of what you think, is tied to the waveform. Take that out, you take the cursed speech out, it wont travel anymore.

1. You have to give me scans that Fern can not only spam,

Ironically have in this thread already.

but actually injure characters 3 times stronger than her with her damage boost, especially characters with damage reduction and regeneration

Pretty sure both her blowing out Frieren's shields and goring Solitare have been posted already.

damage reduction isn't passive, regen isn't passive.

2. every single time Fern fights, she never just runs away like a coward,

Except the times she does?

she stands still, spams range, and dodges left and right when necessary.

The only time she's ever stood still, was against a mage who was doing that back to her, which, you posted.

You're acting like Fern will immediately fly to the mesosphere and carpet bomb the entire area when she never does that in character

It's entirely in character for her to exit the range of others.
whether that's 5m or 500m, depends on who she's fighting.

3. Yuta can't follow her, and he can't get close without getting hit, so when a LOT of his options immediately stop working, what do you think he's gonna ******* do?

die probably tbh.

oh i don't know, use

Invalidate by any waveform or pressure that would distort or obliterate a 180-200db soundwave.

an

You mean the attack that still has to travel? You mean the attack she can survive still?
Oh and "An invisible slash then flies towards the target at great speeds, cutting them.
Dismantle's slicing power depends on the cursed energy outputted into the technique. With less than ten percent of his output, a barrage of Sukuna's Dismantle only left bloody gashes on Yuji Itadori's body."

That was one of your examples right? Nice self-sabotage, Yuji taking 10% dismantle wasn't blown out, wonder why?

Also, if he opts for dismantle first, he just dies, Fern's faster, she will react to him surviving faster than he does, and if he wastes his one move on a technique that while it will **** her up probably, won't actually kill her instantly, he just wasted whatever chance he had because she'd amp her own.

option

Rika ain't even touching Fern my dude. And Rika doesn't stop Fern from killing Yuta.

that

Why in the actual hell would you list off a move he needs to be within a few meters of her to use?

I pray he uses that, it's just suicide. Like good job wasting your chance trying to get close (you argued he wouldn't so nice contradiction) and physically attacking someone who's faster than you and you already conceded he can't catch up to so how in the hell is he landing that?

works?

Best pray that's his lead, but given your arguments it may as well be like rolling a twenty sided die.

I also want to mention that Fern doesn't spam range as an opening move.

Oh damn that's funny given they literally say she was spamming there?
Why cut off the initial portion? Ignoring that's an early Fern but hell, the fact she does it there regardless is just extra damning.

She always starts on the defensive.

Her foe attacking her first, doesn't mean she starts on the defensive?
That'd only work if Fern wasn't attacking Yuta first, she is.

She tends to use her shields and blasts to block attacks before spamming,

She uses shields and blocks attacks, if she's been attacked? Are you really arguing Fern just stands there and lets her foe get the first hit in if she knows she's in a fight? Because that doesn't happen, especially modern Fern who's been taught to take out her foes before they even get a chance to act. Hell her last few fights have been her one shot blitzing her foe so they can't get close or attack her back.

which means Yuta will have plenty of time to realize "oh shit, this b*tch is ultra instinct dodging me and can block all of my attacks pretty well",

No, just because you want to pretend Fern jobs, doesn't make that actually the case. Especially now, she strikes first, she stays out of enemy range, and she overwhelms them with attacks.
She might skew her gameplan if she knows the enemy in question like the Frieren clone, but you framing "Fern was blindsided" or "Fern was attacked first" and doing basic defense and analyses as her always doing that, is so disingenuous I don't even really know how to respond.

then he just says "don't move" and Fern is dead on the spot

As above. I'll be waiting or the CRT or proof of past 200db waveforms.

Yuji opened his Simple Domain and RCT the instant Sukuna's Malevolent Shrine opened

Thanks for proving my point. Yuji, in response to an action, had time to take action and then respond accordingly.

Could he have done that if Sukuna was 3x faster? I highly doubt it.

the same Malevolent Shrine that can powderize everything in the vicinity within moments

Sigh

also tf u mean conflating stamina and rage power? Yuta has WAY more cursed energy reserves than Yuji does, his stamina is way better

Yeah but he don't got that dog in him

Weakened Sukuna scales above Uraume (and by extension, Yuta and Yuji) who can do this.

Bro you're SABOTAGING the verse at this point. I've already ran that shit by 3 CGM's, it has issues, mostly in scaling. You're taking JJK outback, ignoring the validity of that actually scaling, using an improperly calced fat as a gotcha ain't helping.

So yes, he's objectively stronger. You do realize Fern is baseline, right? A character can be more than twice as strong as her and still be Low 7C, which every high tier in JJK is

She isn't. Stop with your ignorance, you've already been explained why she isn't.
Her Zoltraak can shatter shields that are unaffected by the 1kt attack. That's blatant upscaling. (She also blew off Frieren's arm now that I think about it?).
Her damage boost, can gore characters who her standard attack can't even TOUCH, that's massive upscaling.

when did anyone ever mention Sukuna giving anyone a chance?

Dude sandbagged so bad it's a meme. He was legit messing around.

and Sukuna was definitely not jabbing. Did you read the manga at all

Yep actually, I followed the final fight as it came out, even made bets with the boys (I won, Gojo never came back....).

He was jobbing so hard that in the Pochita Vs. Sukuna thread that's up RIGHT NOW, people are yapping about how badly he jobbed lmao.

you're basically saying Fern can outspeed thought based regeneration just because she's faster

Yes because they need to think and decide to do so. If she can land her attacks before they can decide and act in response to the damage, uh, yep actually idk why i need to explain that bit.

three blasts is not anywhere near enough to take Yuta down

Bro.
3 ACTIONS, not 3 blasts. spawning 14 sigils that spam beams, is all one action.

several dozens of blasts is also not enough to take Yuta down

You do you but given a handful of cuts from Sukuna bloodied him up, and Fern can amp her stuff two one shots over with the latter being a huge gap (Went from incapable of contact an doing zero damage, to blowing holes in them), I'd wager it's damn well good enough if she aims for the heart, which she in character does.

anything that isn't just straight up a kill move (which Fern lacks) means Yuta just regenerates and leaves it turned on for the rest of the battle

Damage boost to the heart or head is lethal.

even if Fern spams range off rip (which she never does) he take a lot of hits and then just regenerates from it

I'm not humoring your crunchyroll out of context clips my dude.
I'm also not just going to pretend Yuta's dubious scaling that isn't even a listed value on his profile with said value being dubious anyway, prevents Fern's explicitly accepted big gorilla damage boost.

he grabs the sky with both hands Whitebeard style, spins around once, boom, he's covered. the range is BIG on this shit

And you think he has a chance to do that? And you think Fern can't react to that given he's gonna be moving like it's 2005 xbox live?
You don't think she can't just pivot her beams?
Also stop linking virus filled sites goddamn, do it again and I'll have someone warn you.

Btw that scene has been posted like thrice already, kinda huge gaping gaps even in that scene that leave him vulnerable, it's anything but omnidrectional.

again, he's durable enough and can regen fast enough to facetank this without all of the other stuff I've already mentioned.

As above. I'm not even sure your scaling is accepted? And that only works if we ignore what's accepted for Fern too.

If he goes for sky manip, any hits he already took will just regenerate and now he's ok, and if he spams that,

As above, slower. In the time it takes him to move his arms even half his body's length, her beams have already covered his entire body length, multiple times, it's an actual waste and the fact you keep arguing it is pointless.

he can reduce the number of attacks he ends up taking,

He'd be lucky if he blocks even one.

which is a big step in the right direction

But yeah waste time using sky so she can just create a bigger gap.

I'm not trying to argue he negates LITERALLY everything cuz I admit that's not possible, but blocking/deflecting a sizeable portion means that he regenerates even easier than he already does

Every one of her attacks can be freely controlled and attack from all angles.
Wasting time doing huge cumbersome movements is such a waste of his time he may as well just let Fern get a few extra turns in.

First of all, if Fern could target his blindspots freely, she would do so against every mage she's fought without a fully constructed forcefield.

Do you not know how that forcefield works? That's literally what every mage in the verse can do, it's basic toddler training.
It just doesn't work because the forcefield is thought based, spawns to intercept the beams, and the beams get nullified so they CAN'T just bounce them off. This is shit that's explained in the first volume extensively.

Heck, Ehre was using micro shields to block EVERYTHING she had for like a solid 20 seconds. If Fern could just target blindspots, she would have maneuvered all of her attacks to miss the shields, but she couldn't do that

You're ignorant and it's showing.
As above.

It's ironic too, half your retorts where just "nuh uh you havent watched/read jjk", could you make it any less subtle on your end? Pot meet kettle-aahhh behavior.

If you don't know how defensive magic works, if you don't know how even the most basic attack patterns work, if you haven't even read past chapter 10 because this is legit all explained in the first volume, do not talk or argue this like you know.

Second of all, the "boxer" (yuta) can regenerate,

Not passive, has to be turned on, liable to be dead before that.

and the "arrows" (Zoltraaks) don't do that much damage at all since the boxer's skin is too resilient (sincee yuta is way more durable)

And the arrows secretly have explosive tipped heads, wowza.

see above, Sukuna in Malevolent Shrine doesn't let up cuz he can't,

Kinda sucks when he does tho, doesn't it?
Your examples, he only attacked briefly.

attacks faster cuz that's how the domain works,

No it isn't?
What Sukuna got infinite speed now?

You're arguing random, sporadic, attacks that just spawn all over, is faster?
No my dude, that's just a lack of range, he still can only do so many attacks in a certain timeframe, and we can tell how many he did, hell we can even count.

and her amp is pointless against a character 3 times stronger than her with their own defensive amp

I mean, literally not the case but you do you, I can't very well think the JJK goons gonna be happy you got them knocked down a peg.

RCT and Rika are thought based,

Being thought based means little when the foe thinks faster.
Also Rika very much isn't thought based, Rika still has to act and move, but yeah waste time summoning Rika ig.
Against a character you argued Yuta will just kinda let fly away.

sky manip is swinging his arms

Yeah, which is why it's beyond awful here.

you're basically saying Yuta gets evaporated on the spot when Fern literally never does that

The ****** up thing is I'm pretty sure she's evaporated more enemies within the first second of a fight than she HASNT evaporated.

the instant Ehre gets hit once it created a massive explosion and Ehre got knocked out, and Fern immediately stopped attacking her

Uh, yeah? What? Why would Fern kill her? She wasn't a risk? She was defeated? And she wasn't evil or malicious and wasn't attacking Fern with killing intent, only the intent to incapacitate?

Fern is attacking someone who doesn't have the ability to block with shields. If she blasts him once, she's gonna stop blasting him, as shown in every single one of her fights in canon.

Uh, what? In over half her combat encounters, they usually end with her foe being vaporized or turned to dust? In the few times that doesn't happen, she spams, DPS checks, or snipes th an attack that blows them out.

There's only been two fights she's been in where she hasn't done that, Ehre, where she knocked her out cold through pressure, or the nun who she also knocked out cold in a single hit.

If Yuta takes attacks, doesn't go down, she knows right away he's built diff, deadly, and if he's strong enough to withstand an onslaught of Zoltraak, he's obviously not a normal human and should be dealt with serious intent.

If she does that, Yuta gets up and kills her

Annnnnnd you're a hypocrite.
"Fern doesn't vaporize or gore foes!" (she does, quite a bit).
"Yuta will get up and murder her in response to a foe I've been arguing is fodder actually and is apparently not attacking with murderous intent!" (He wouldn't kill someone like that).

Cursed Speech is definitely NOT his "best shit"

You're right, it's pretty useless tbh. I was talking about DE.

neither is sky manipulation

Which is useless.

neither is Dismantle

Which is just trading and asking to be put down.

no she doesn't. She needs to specifically use cursed energy to protect her ears, and then her brain

One more virus riddled site and I swear to god. Have some decency.
Regardless, yes she does.
Yeah she needs to protect herself with cursed energy, but she still has to hear it. If she DIDN'T hear it, she wouldn't have had to do even that.

And then you realize she has no cursed energy
so she can't block it

Doesn't need to block what gets negated by mere collateral

even with verse equalization, she can't block it either since she has no prep time

If we had verse equalization for CE and Mana, which is what I think you mean, she literally could because she's way faster, knows there's speech based or instant based type curses, and is legit faster than sound.

yes? if Fern starts blasting it makes no sense that Yuta could just dodge it and reach her

Hey you said it not me,

yeah the blasts won't hurt too much and yeah he can regenerate from all of them, but that doesn't mean he's going to even want to get close and just endure all of the blasts when he has several other better options that don't require him to get close.

"If we ignore damage boost, use sus memes and give Yuta a million free actions, he should be good to go".

Yes in that situation, I'm sure he would be. But let it be known, you've stated multiple times he won't even try to get close to her.

yes I realized this.

You shouldn't have even had to.

no they don't
Clone Frieren was still able to block several of her attacks, only losing cuz:
1. She used up mana to fight literally herself. A mage's shields AND durability are dependent on their mana reserves, as they're just as durable as any other person otherwise

Huh?


Why the headcanon? They NEVER say she was out of mana.
And she's a copy of Frieren, a character with a bigger manapool than someone who can last 72 hours expending mana.

Why are you like this?

2. Frieren herself stated that Fern is faster than her and therefore Fern was able to overwhelm the clone and get unblocked hits in

Except....
That isn't what happened, Fern managed to break through, not outspeed.

3. The clone was still standing, she just lost her arms

Wow she shattered her shield and landed a fatal injury that blew half her torso off?
That, sounds pretty damn good ngl.

4. Yuta is still significantly stronger than the calc Fern scales to

You're digging a grave here my dude.

this is just one of the many abilities he has to block her attacks, not to mention, again, he doesn't need to block to begin with cuz he's stronger and RCT is fast.

One of the many abilities he has because he gets infinite free actions and Fern actually doesn't do anything am I right? That's basically what your arguments have amounted to this time.

He needs to block if she boosts, end of.

RCT is manual, he needs to decide to do it first, if he's in a position where he has to, it's probably already to late.

if you want to take animation seriously, he erased everything into nothing by slashing

You're not real.

like nothing visible left

I can't with you, "i cant see much debris after like 30 seconds so he mustve ERASED it".

that's a lot of slashing

As above.

and that's a lot more than 100

That actually hit Maho? No, it wasn't. You count it frame by frame if you want, be my guest, in fact, do so.

pretty sure cutting something in half doesn't atomize it.

I mean if you wanna downgrade Sukuna be my guest.

I've cut a few birthday cakes myself, and the cake didn't just nuke itself into nothingness

Bro doesn't know about thickness and shear strength....
Also this is such an awful analogy I don't even know how to reply, how should I reply even?

False equivalence, if, you swung that knife at even mach 1, you would legit vaporize said cake even with the few mm cut width. But yes, newsflash, you ain't Sukuna.

Sukuna's slashes in the series have never just disintegrated people on contact,

this isnt even true

he's always cut them. His Domain Expansion actually disintegrates things

not because the slashes jumped tiers, but because he's slashing them so many times that there's nothing left to divide by 2 anymore.

You're so lucky we're on forum goddamn.

His slashes aren't infinitesimally thin, we know they have a thickness to them, because we've seen individual cuts and can gauge the split thickness or wound thickness.

In EVERY example you're using where characters tank them, we can literally count how many times they were cut.

Given you used the anime, we can straight up count every individual slash that hit Maho, it isn't even 0.00001% of your claim.

And his slashes EXPLICITLY have force behind them, which is why they can b tanked in the first place.

And now, here you are, arguing that Sukuna is actually MFTL++++++++++ because he can cut something so many times it can't even be divided by two. A hundred million? More like 100 decillion.

Again, I don't think you know how Malevolent Shrine works

I don't think you do at this point ngl.
Given you've basically argued Mal has MFTL+++++++++ EE attack rate where every attack hits one target at the same.

then explain how
1. Sukuna has never disintegrated anything with his Cleaves or Dismantles despite all of them carrying his AP

Because they tank it?

2. Malevolent Shrine, the technique that is explicitedly stated to "relentlessly slashes apart anything until nothing but dust remains" to such an extent that he reduces organic and inorganic matter to nothing through multiple miniscule slashes, CAN disintegrate things

Because he reduces them to dust over a arbitrary timeframe?
why do think that's some sort of "gotcha"? His slashes could be 10-C or 3-A, it's still the slash reducing thing to dust. It never says it needs to take some insane number to cut any individual thing.

do I need to explain this any more

I moreso think you need to make some CRT's instead of enforcing your headcanon.

domain expansion

Yep the ol Yuta can do everything argument.

the technique

that spams slashes

can disintegrate people

while normal, individual slashes

can't disintegrate people

HMMMMM I WONDER WHY THAT'S THE CASE

As above.

Fern's homing attacks are better than the sure hit effect of a domain?

Yes given 99.999999% of the slashes in Sukuna's Domain don't actually hit the target. This sin't even a topic of debate, they just don't.

attacks in a domain expansion do not exist until they hit their target

Didn't say otherwise, that means nothing on how many actually hit within a certain timeframe.

meaning they instantly land

Nobody is arguing range, especially because Yuta sure as hell can't dodge Sukuna's DE slashes either.

and Sukuna can spam these

At a slower rate than Fern.

yes, he's annihilating the surroundings as well, but his accuracy in his domain is so good that his attacks literally spawn on/inside people

"He's got a 0.00001% hit rate, he's accurate"
"He can actually make it so a hundred million slashes spawn instantly on a target even though that's never happened, and the most he's done is like a dozen on a single target at once".

Sukuna has no feat, showing, or statement implying he just randomly decides to attack everything else for the fun of it, and is just sandbagging and only using a negligible amount of slashes on a foe.
That would be, because he can't. Mal simply targets everything in the domain, once things get destroyed, that doesn't mean the slashes that were used to destroy those suddenly get redirected on the single target, we straight up know that isn't the case because we see this happen in real time against Maho.

his domain slashes can spawn on and inside people literally instantly, yet people like Gojo and Yuji can take them and respond fast enough to regenerate. Why would Yuta be an exception?

The Yuji example? You mean where where he got his torso blown out? Or when Sukuna held back?
I don't even think we accept they spawn inside people on wiki, actually doesn't make much sense thinking on it because by that logic it'd spawn inside their brains and stuff, which it don't.

Aaaaand, because Fern is faster?

when a domain's sure hit effect already allows him to powderize his intended target, you can probably assume that the attacks intended to hit his target alone are already enough to surpass Fern's number of attacks per second

Oh, oh there it is. Assume.
Hate to break it to you, but I'm not assuming, I'm counting, I counted how many slashes hit Maho within a 3 second window. It's a lot, something like 70+. It's also nowhere near what you claim.
It would, in fact, actually be on par with Fern give or take, same ballpark over that many seconds from the same pov. IF, they were equal speed, it isn't, she's faster.

You're conflating the entirety of Sukuna's DE, every slash that occupies it, to be the amount that struck his targets, this is so disingenuous that I legitimately can't take a single one of arguments seriously now.

Mahoraga literally got turned into blood the instant the domain opened, and his blood turned into nothing an instant after.

You and me have very different definitions of instant.
Also there's no way in hell you're conveniently ignoring right after where we can count how many attacks he's actually getting hit by.

Also stop linking suspicious sites, clip that shit on yt or imgur.

That Domain Expansion was comparable to the Domain Expansion he released against Yuji and the others in Shinjuku, yet people like Yuji could still regenerate from it.

Please go give Yuji mid-high regen, I'll wait.

1. she never does this in character literally ever. She stays on the ground and starts blasting, only flying when her opponent has wide reaching attacks or also flies, which Yuta doesn't really have either (besides Cursed Speech which she can't react to, and Full Power Energy Blast which obviously she can dodge)

Except she does? She's done it against multiple demons, mages, monsters and more?
In fact she's flown in EVERY fight she's been in the, the only exception are a wolf she one shot, a phantom she one shot, and Ehre who was flying around instead.

I'm getting sick of repeating myself on the Cursed Speech thing, I'll be waiting for proof on the db count or a CRT.

2. Summoning Rika, RCT, and using Cursed Energy Reinforcement are all instant, and there's no reason why he wouldn't be able to do all of this at once.

Because he literally can't? Does he have multiple selves?
Are you actually asking why he can't do 3 different actions in one action?

3. except again, not only is her manipulating her blasts questionable to begin with due to her fight against Ehre,

Stop talking. You sound like the other dude goddamn.

"Her manipulating her blasts is questionable, ignore how she did so in that very fight lol".

but even if she could,

Could? You mean like she always does? You realize even it just curving is her controlling it right?

Yuta can easily just bend all of the space around him,

No he can't, he's slower, nobody in JJK has ever used to cover themselves completely, and just long cumbersome actions against beams multiple times faster than him is beyond a stupid act.

here's nothing stopping him from doing so besides time, and time isn't an issue cuz he can facetank, and also because of the facetanking he doesn't even need sky manipulation to begin with

And then she damage boosts.

4. Again, drowning out the sound doesn't work since the cursed energy is still there.

Which is bound to said sound and needs it as a conduit to travel. Don't like it, go CRT.

She hears Yuta a single time and she's completely cooked.

Which she won't because Yuta doesnt have a way to prevent Zoltraak from exploding. And it's going to first as she's quicker on the draw,

Not to mention, Fern has no reason to spam blasts against a character who can't block them.

Uh, because she does that in character and he can tank them?

Is Fern suddenly an idiot who doesn't attack, doesn't move, only attacks once and never again? Because that's basically what you've argued. I can't take your arguments in good faith at this point.

She uses it against mages cuz mage shields are a thing she's trained her fighting style to counter due to her speed, but against someone who can't block to begin with, she never spams blasts

Yep ignore all those monsters.

He prevents her from fleeing by just saying "don't move", and then it's gg

Only if you assume he gets a million free actions, ignore how we actually accept cursed Speech to function as, and just headcanon stuff.

Uraume scales to this level of power, who fought Hakari, whom Yuta is stronger than by a small margine

are creation feats not scaled to the character? I'm not too sure how much of a difference that makes

No? Not without explicit proof? In fact by default they don't. Hell if JJK was using creation feats to scale, they'd be like 7-A thinking on it, the fact we don't do that is a huge red flag.

Not that it matters, the ice calc is faulty anyway, the volume obtained from the mass and the pixel scaling is just poorly done.

 

[Mickey1940]

Creation feat are only assumed to scale to the character by default if the verse’s magic system has been accepted to be either an NPES (for other abilities from the verse’s magic system to scale) or a UES (for physicals to also scale).

wdym by this? I don't know what the abbreviations mean

Uraume uses his cursed energy reserves to create the ice, if that helps, not sure how it would really apply here but I was under the assumption that Uraume could replicate this level of power offensively

 

[Mickey1940]

It's more that other dude's revisions, I'm just gonna throw a few things at him to add.

Yeah sucks that we don't scale shit like that directly tho

Yep with gaping wounds and uh, ya know what, no he didn't?
Your definition of "withstand" is odd, I wouldn't consider giant gaping wounds that Sukuna let him recover from as withstand, or a held back Mal as withstanding.

Oh you mean the active thing one must manually use?

If it was a 3x gap, they wouldn't be low 7-C. They are, tough luck.
A 3x gap with a feat that really shouldn't be used to begin with, I'll deal with that later but the calc is bad, looking it over it's inflated twice over.

Cursed Energy Reinforcement? Oh you mean the thing he has to actively choose to do?

A not 3 kt character because he would no longer even be the tier we rate him at, is not safely tanking attacks that are two one shots over attacks above 1 kt.

He actually can't regenerate that fast? Sukuna basically let him.

And so is arguing in a match that already concluded.

9-B sukuna.....

Uh, nope because that isn't what happens. We can literally count the attacks that hit a specific target.

So, no, he isn't hitting a single target a hundred million times, or even a hundred, he's restricted to what we actively see, and in every instance, the slashes that attack random stuff because they just spawn randomly, has zero effect on the total amount and rate of attack he can do against a single entity.

Sukuna has never, at any point, throughout both the manga and anime, attacked a single target with even 1/10000th of the attacks youre claiming he can do.

The single most intense sequence, is against Maho, and while a lot and quite extensive, dozens a second, while countless slashes just so happen to be going off everywhere else, doesn't mean the attacks that arent even hitting him, is hitting him.

You're framing this as if every attack that spawns in the domain, simutaneously hits the target at the same time. It doesn't.

This didn't happen to Maho, Gojo, Yuta, Yuji, etc. They were only struck with a negligible fraction of the total amount, we can even figure out how many hit them based on the resulting wounds, hatch marks, and sliced environment that spatially occupied.

I do not give a shit if he can attack a billion targets with a billion attacks, if he can only hit an individual target with a dozen attacks.

You're twisting what's actually happening and framing it as "oh Sukuna can do a lot of attacks so [character] can tank a bunch!", when that is very much not what happens.

You wanna argue that? Show me say, Gojo, surviving a million slashes at the same time.

Yep, him having big range doesn't mean he attacks a specific foe at a quicker rate.
Like he legit just doesn't, that doesn't happen. The current highest sequence is against Maho, which is also the scene this happens in, Maho is NOT taking every slash that occurs in the domain, he's taking a small fraction because they, in your own words mind you, spawn randomly.

Unless you're arguing that they power people so it was a bunch of slashes? Bro, 1 slash would powder a normal person, try again.

As above.

I didn't think I had to explain my point to this extent. A wall, a person, literally EVERYTHING BUT HIS MAIN ENEMY, do not matter. All that matters, is how many attack he can land on a specific individual at a given time. It is not hundreds of millions like you claim, it is not single millions, it is not hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands, thousands, or hell even hundreds. It's dozens. And it's dozens ONLY because of the anime, which I'm granting you here out of fairness.

Idk where are you gonna be once I report you?

I watched it and spent like 90 frames counting that shit one by one, took me about 5 minutes.
You are arguing, that Sukuna, with tier 7 slashes, slashing randomly, over a large area, with huge hundred meter long slashes, dusting 10-C to 9-B substances instantly, is him somehow hitting a target innumerable times, when really, it's just one slash and what that slash hits gets obliterated because why wouldn't it?

We can see, using an actual lasting target, Maho, how many times something is struck, and how quickly, it is not the same as your claims.

Please don't link me virus riddled sites, just clicking that set off my firewall holy shit.

But nah, nice try, "because of SIMPLE DOMAIN and RCT". As in, things he had to manually use, things that take time to use, things that Yuta won't get a chance to use here, you mean?

My retort is actually taking into account the speed gap, and the fact RCT is something he must manually do. Fern is quicker on the draw, she is attacking first, and she is also reacting to him not going down first, before he gets even his first action in.

200m AOE where Sukuna's slashes basically auto spawn on repeat attacking everything within the expansion until it is deactivated, no?
That's rhetorical, that's exactly what it does, you yourself even said as much yourself.

Now, how is that a retort? Are you trying to say we can't can't how many attacks actually hit the characters? Because we can, we see the aftermath of the slashes.

Bro's about to be barely 30% stronger no thanks to you

Not that it matters because that legit isn't the case anyway.

I do, starting to think you don't tho. Do you think EVERY slash hits the target? Because like, it don't?
They're random, a slash gutting a wall across town, isn't hitting the dude 5ft in front of Sukuna. They're striking different targets.

You're acting like every single individual slash hits every single target at the same time, they don't, I'm not sure why you even think this given you can literally count how many cuts or wounds they get, and the anime helps too as the slashes are literally drawn as quick 1 frame black cuts.

I will actively circle everything and treat it like you're 5 if that is what is required of me to cease this.

Though, notwithstanding I have (really wish i didn't tho, shit was a waste of time), if your rebuttal is "you didnt watch", why are your arguments blatantly wrong that anyone who has read even 5m of Frieren would know isn't true like your incessant claims that Fern's mage boost only works against demons for some baffling reason? Like if you wanna point and accuse, please don't be guilty of that very thing.

I would PRAY the 7-C can turn a rock into powder slashing it ONE time. In fact, not even, I want that rock reduced to dust from the mere pressure of the slash before it even makes contact.

More than you it would appear. Do you not think a 7-C cut would obliterate things on contact?

He literally is. If they lacked power they wouldn't be able to cut anything to begin with, they'd be unable to overcome the shear strength of any object.
Unless you wanna argue his cuts don't have power behind them but instead are hax? But, well, go make a CRT.

Yeah, except when he isn't. It isn't like his cuts have an infinitesimally small cross section, they're actually pretty damn thick, hell when he cuts Maho across the chest on the street, one of the cuts makes a 30cm gash on a random wall, plus going by the cut wounds that dudes obtain, such as Yuji being cut like 8 timesish.

Yeah, 7-C.
Also nobody is saying his domain isnt filled with cuts, but it being filled with attacks, and every one of those attacks hitting a single target, are not the same, you're acting like they are.

Realistically? 1 given how strong he is.
based on the anime and how many we see? Idk probably a handful of thousand?

But again, you're confusing that with how many he can attack a single person with at once.

If you swung a supersonic razor at a piece of paper, you'd legit disintegrate as you cut it.

Someone's getting a lil frisky no?
Now how many of those attacks actually hit Sukuna's target.
How many cuts did Yuta, Yuji or Gojo actually take?

This is rhetorical as I already checked, not even dozens.

Given his slashes are as big as said buildings at times? Less than you think.

Yeah you def don't get there's a difference between AOE and actual pressure. Ignoring it isn't a city but just 200m.

I may as well argue Fern eclipses anyway because her attacks can explode so they cover just as big a range, except more because she's faster so it's secretly like a dozen of Sukuna's domain expansions at once.

See how silly that is? You're conflating two different aspects.

As above.

Sukuna could have 1,000,000,000,000,000 slashes in his domain at a given time (he doesnt have even 1% of that but for argument's sake), that doesn't matter if his foe is only struck by say, 30 of those.
The fact each slash is actually extremely long, pretty thick, and also 7-C, also lowers that value anyway.

Done repeating myself, it'd just be the same thing I said 3 times this post, again.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????
Gee idk, because all of Fern's attacks are targeted an actually hit their mark?

Why does it matter that 99.999999% of Sukuna's attacks don't actually hit, only only 0.000001% do?
Why does that matter when you're arguing and framing it like because he has so many slashes at once, characters "tanking" (they dont even tank it they get wounded), that "oh gojo survived slashes from him" to mean him surviving like a dozen or so means he can survive 38x3 attacks moment to moment that ACTUALLY hit their mark and not a wall across town, is a tremendous false equivalence?

Except it isn't.
If that was the case, the characters you keep bringing up would be uh, dead?
No, it can turn normal 10-B humans to dust, which I sure af hope it could.
If Sukuna couldn't dust a human with huge tens of meters long slashes that are like a handful of inches thick, based on the cut marks of people who can actually tank them, that are packing nuke lv power, while launched at a rate that pushes back characters that are in the mach range, I would legitimately call him pathetic.

It legit isn't, you're using the anime right? Count the slashes that actually hit Maho every frame, go on, do it, I'll wait.

And then come back to me so I can show you how many of Fern's attacks hit every frame.
And then factor in the speed gap.

Of course not, she was getting her into position.
And double of course not because Zoltraak doesn't home, she manually controls it.
Also also, that character is triple Yuta's speed.

Oh god, you didn't read the thread huh?

Mages simply choose to manifest small defenses, this, is a good thing as it saves mana.

imgur.com

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users.

imgur.com

Start of the manga, the very first thing we learn about mage combat, defense magic even.
they can curve attacks, they can use to go around defenses and strike blindspots, this is the most basic combat training.
We learn that "hey doing that is actually dumb, instead just manifest a shield in a specific place wherever you'd be hit".

Which is something EVERY mage she's ever fought has done.

imgur.com

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users.

imgur.com

Here's 3 examples within a few chapters of each other.

She's always attacking from a bunch of angles and directions, the fact mages have thought based forcefields that can spawn hexagonal magic null defenses all around them, is something Yuta doesn't have.
Yuta needs to physically grab space, pull, and only where he pulled is he protected, so what do you think Fern is gonna do? Just curve around where he pulled like she's been trained since adolescence to do, and has done multiple times since.

So, why doesn't she curve around the tiny forcefield? Because her enemy would just make it BIGGER. She can't curve it around defense magic, it's thought based, spawns instantly, and can be spawned anywhere around the person, and once her beam hits it, the beam is gone as the defense magic has runes that nullify it built in. So, Fern exploits that, in that fight, by forcing her to block from all directions to the point she just gets overwhelmed and blown out.


"Yeah Fern is faster but Yuta gets 20 free actions so he wins".

Bro is getting 1 action if he's lucky.

Cursed Energy Reinforcement? 1 action, has to decide to do that, by the time he does, Fern has already take 3 actions.
Sword in front of him? Literally just avoid it, what sort of argument is this?
RCT? If he's already been blasted enough to where he does that, Fern would already know he's to durable to spam and to boost her magic.
Rika? Bro Rika slow af too.
Cursed Speech? I'll wait for you to either make a CRT to change that Cursed Speech works even if you don't hear it and to change the profile, or prove he can magnify the soundwave to the extent nuclear overpressure won't annihilate it.

In general.

Literally never happened. It only warps the space he pulls said space over, Fern can and will blitz that and avoid where he pulls.
This doesn't cover him completely, the best example of it, took not only a huge action to pull off, but still had multiple blindspots.

Good question, why didn't he do it in any of his fights ever?

Also you don't get how this works, Yuta doesn't get all these actions, you're arguing he summons Rika, summons a megaphone and starts yapping, uses sky to block stuff, etc, NO he doesn't, he's slower, he's not getting the time to do all of this, he's dead if he picks wrong or plays his cards poorly, you've basically argued he just lets her piss off even prior too. You're sabotaging him if anything.

DE is a good option for him, but would he use that as his lead? If not, dead. Would he do so before Fern boosts? Hard to say.

Oh yes she does, if you don't like that lil tidbit I suggest you go change every profile with Cursed Speech, because that's how it's explained on wiki, that's how it's framed on wiki, and tbh that's logically how it works anyway because at that point why would the range of the soundwave even matter? The cursed energy is still, regardless of what you think, is tied to the waveform. Take that out, you take the cursed speech out, it wont travel anymore.

Ironically have in this thread already.

Pretty sure both her blowing out Frieren's shields and goring Solitare have been posted already.

damage reduction isn't passive, regen isn't passive.

Except the times she does?

The only time she's ever stood still, was against a mage who was doing that back to her, which, you posted.

It's entirely in character for her to exit the range of others.
whether that's 5m or 500m, depends on who she's fighting.

die probably tbh.

Invalidate by any waveform or pressure that would distort or obliterate a 180-200db soundwave.

You mean the attack that still has to travel? You mean the attack she can survive still?
Oh and "An invisible slash then flies towards the target at great speeds, cutting them.
Dismantle's slicing power depends on the cursed energy outputted into the technique. With less than ten percent of his output, a barrage of Sukuna's Dismantle only left bloody gashes on Yuji Itadori's body."

That was one of your examples right? Nice self-sabotage, Yuji taking 10% dismantle wasn't blown out, wonder why?

Also, if he opts for dismantle first, he just dies, Fern's faster, she will react to him surviving faster than he does, and if he wastes his one move on a technique that while it will **** her up probably, won't actually kill her instantly, he just wasted whatever chance he had because she'd amp her own.

Rika ain't even touching Fern my dude. And Rika doesn't stop Fern from killing Yuta.

Why in the actual hell would you list off a move he needs to be within a few meters of her to use?

I pray he uses that, it's just suicide. Like good job wasting your chance trying to get close (you argued he wouldn't so nice contradiction) and physically attacking someone who's faster than you and you already conceded he can't catch up to so how in the hell is he landing that?

Best pray that's his lead, but given your arguments it may as well be like rolling a twenty sided die.

Oh damn that's funny given they literally say she was spamming there?
Why cut off the initial portion? Ignoring that's an early Fern but hell, the fact she does it there regardless is just extra damning.

Her foe attacking her first, doesn't mean she starts on the defensive?
That'd only work if Fern wasn't attacking Yuta first, she is.


She uses shields and blocks attacks, if she's been attacked? Are you really arguing Fern just stands there and lets her foe get the first hit in if she knows she's in a fight? Because that doesn't happen, especially modern Fern who's been taught to take out her foes before they even get a chance to act. Hell her last few fights have been her one shot blitzing her foe so they can't get close or attack her back.

No, just because you want to pretend Fern jobs, doesn't make that actually the case. Especially now, she strikes first, she stays out of enemy range, and she overwhelms them with attacks.
She might skew her gameplan if she knows the enemy in question like the Frieren clone, but you framing "Fern was blindsided" or "Fern was attacked first" and doing basic defense and analyses as her always doing that, is so disingenuous I don't even really know how to respond.

As above. I'll be waiting or the CRT or proof of past 200db waveforms.

Thanks for proving my point. Yuji, in response to an action, had time to take action and then respond accordingly.

Could he have done that if Sukuna was 3x faster? I highly doubt it.

Sigh

Yeah but he don't got that dog in him

Bro you're SABOTAGING the verse at this point. I've already ran that shit by 3 CGM's, it has issues, mostly in scaling. You're taking JJK outback, ignoring the validity of that actually scaling, using an improperly calced fat as a gotcha ain't helping.

She isn't. Stop with your ignorance, you've already been explained why she isn't.
Her Zoltraak can shatter shields that are unaffected by the 1kt attack. That's blatant upscaling. (She also blew off Frieren's arm now that I think about it?).
Her damage boost, can gore characters who her standard attack can't even TOUCH, that's massive upscaling.

Dude sandbagged so bad it's a meme. He was legit messing around.

Yep actually, I followed the final fight as it came out, even made bets with the boys (I won, Gojo never came back....).

He was jobbing so hard that in the Pochita Vs. Sukuna thread that's up RIGHT NOW, people are yapping about how badly he jobbed lmao.

Yes because they need to think and decide to do so. If she can land her attacks before they can decide and act in response to the damage, uh, yep actually idk why i need to explain that bit.

Bro.
3 ACTIONS, not 3 blasts. spawning 14 sigils that spam beams, is all one action.

You do you but given a handful of cuts from Sukuna bloodied him up, and Fern can amp her stuff two one shots over with the latter being a huge gap (Went from incapable of contact an doing zero damage, to blowing holes in them), I'd wager it's damn well good enough if she aims for the heart, which she in character does.

Damage boost to the heart or head is lethal.

I'm not humoring your crunchyroll out of context clips my dude.
I'm also not just going to pretend Yuta's dubious scaling that isn't even a listed value on his profile with said value being dubious anyway, prevents Fern's explicitly accepted big gorilla damage boost.

And you think he has a chance to do that? And you think Fern can't react to that given he's gonna be moving like it's 2005 xbox live?
You don't think she can't just pivot her beams?
Also stop linking virus filled sites goddamn, do it again and I'll have someone warn you.

Btw that scene has been posted like thrice already, kinda huge gaping gaps even in that scene that leave him vulnerable, it's anything but omnidrectional.

As above. I'm not even sure your scaling is accepted? And that only works if we ignore what's accepted for Fern too.

As above, slower. In the time it takes him to move his arms even half his body's length, her beams have already covered his entire body length, multiple times, it's an actual waste and the fact you keep arguing it is pointless.

He'd be lucky if he blocks even one.

But yeah waste time using sky so she can just create a bigger gap.

Every one of her attacks can be freely controlled and attack from all angles.
Wasting time doing huge cumbersome movements is such a waste of his time he may as well just let Fern get a few extra turns in.

Do you not know how that forcefield works? That's literally what every mage in the verse can do, it's basic toddler training.
It just doesn't work because the forcefield is thought based, spawns to intercept the beams, and the beams get nullified so they CAN'T just bounce them off. This is shit that's explained in the first volume extensively.

You're ignorant and it's showing.
As above.

It's ironic too, half your retorts where just "nuh uh you havent watched/read jjk", could you make it any less subtle on your end? Pot meet kettle-aahhh behavior.

If you don't know how defensive magic works, if you don't know how even the most basic attack patterns work, if you haven't even read past chapter 10 because this is legit all explained in the first volume, do not talk or argue this like you know.

Not passive, has to be turned on, liable to be dead before that.

And the arrows secretly have explosive tipped heads, wowza.

Kinda sucks when he does tho, doesn't it?
Your examples, he only attacked briefly.

No it isn't?
What Sukuna got infinite speed now?

You're arguing random, sporadic, attacks that just spawn all over, is faster?
No my dude, that's just a lack of range, he still can only do so many attacks in a certain timeframe, and we can tell how many he did, hell we can even count.

I mean, literally not the case but you do you, I can't very well think the JJK goons gonna be happy you got them knocked down a peg.

Being thought based means little when the foe thinks faster.
Also Rika very much isn't thought based, Rika still has to act and move, but yeah waste time summoning Rika ig.
Against a character you argued Yuta will just kinda let fly away.

Yeah, which is why it's beyond awful here.

The ****** up thing is I'm pretty sure she's evaporated more enemies within the first second of a fight than she HASNT evaporated.

Uh, yeah? What? Why would Fern kill her? She wasn't a risk? She was defeated? And she wasn't evil or malicious and wasn't attacking Fern with killing intent, only the intent to incapacitate?



Uh, what? In over half her combat encounters, they usually end with her foe being vaporized or turned to dust? In the few times that doesn't happen, she spams, DPS checks, or snipes th an attack that blows them out.

There's only been two fights she's been in where she hasn't done that, Ehre, where she knocked her out cold through pressure, or the nun who she also knocked out cold in a single hit.

If Yuta takes attacks, doesn't go down, she knows right away he's built diff, deadly, and if he's strong enough to withstand an onslaught of Zoltraak, he's obviously not a normal human and should be dealt with serious intent.

Annnnnnd you're a hypocrite.
"Fern doesn't vaporize or gore foes!" (she does, quite a bit).
"Yuta will get up and murder her in response to a foe I've been arguing is fodder actually and is apparently not attacking with murderous intent!" (He wouldn't kill someone like that).

You're right, it's pretty useless tbh. I was talking about DE.

Which is useless.

Which is just trading and asking to be put down.

One more virus riddled site and I swear to god. Have some decency.
Regardless, yes she does.
Yeah she needs to protect herself with cursed energy, but she still has to hear it. If she DIDN'T hear it, she wouldn't have had to do even that.

Doesn't need to block what gets negated by mere collateral

If we had verse equalization for CE and Mana, which is what I think you mean, she literally could because she's way faster, knows there's speech based or instant based type curses, and is legit faster than sound.

Hey you said it not me,

"If we ignore damage boost, use sus memes and give Yuta a million free actions, he should be good to go".

Yes in that situation, I'm sure he would be. But let it be known, you've stated multiple times he won't even try to get close to her.

You shouldn't have even had to.

Huh?


Why the headcanon? They NEVER say she was out of mana.
And she's a copy of Frieren, a character with a bigger manapool than someone who can last 72 hours expending mana.

Why are you like this?

Except....
That isn't what happened, Fern managed to break through, not outspeed.

Wow she shattered her shield and landed a fatal injury that blew half her torso off?
That, sounds pretty damn good ngl.

You're digging a grave here my dude.

One of the many abilities he has because he gets infinite free actions and Fern actually doesn't do anything am I right? That's basically what your arguments have amounted to this time.

He needs to block if she boosts, end of.

RCT is manual, he needs to decide to do it first, if he's in a position where he has to, it's probably already to late.

You're not real.

I can't with you, "i cant see much debris after like 30 seconds so he mustve ERASED it".

As above.

That actually hit Maho? No, it wasn't. You count it frame by frame if you want, be my guest, in fact, do so.

I mean if you wanna downgrade Sukuna be my guest.

Bro doesn't know about thickness and shear strength....
Also this is such an awful analogy I don't even know how to reply, how should I reply even?

False equivalence, if, you swung that knife at even mach 1, you would legit vaporize said cake even with the few mm cut width. But yes, newsflash, you ain't Sukuna.



this isnt even true

You're so lucky we're on forum goddamn.

His slashes aren't infinitesimally thin, we know they have a thickness to them, because we've seen individual cuts and can gauge the split thickness or wound thickness.

In EVERY example you're using where characters tank them, we can literally count how many times they were cut.

Given you used the anime, we can straight up count every individual slash that hit Maho, it isn't even 0.00001% of your claim.

And his slashes EXPLICITLY have force behind them, which is why they can b tanked in the first place.

And now, here you are, arguing that Sukuna is actually MFTL++++++++++ because he can cut something so many times it can't even be divided by two. A hundred million? More like 100 decillion.

I don't think you do at this point ngl.
Given you've basically argued Mal has MFTL+++++++++ EE attack rate where every attack hits one target at the same.

Because they tank it?

Because he reduces them to dust over a arbitrary timeframe?
why do think that's some sort of "gotcha"? His slashes could be 10-C or 3-A, it's still the slash reducing thing to dust. It never says it needs to take some insane number to cut any individual thing.

I moreso think you need to make some CRT's instead of enforcing your headcanon.

Yep the ol Yuta can do everything argument.

As above.

Yes given 99.999999% of the slashes in Sukuna's Domain don't actually hit the target. This sin't even a topic of debate, they just don't.

Didn't say otherwise, that means nothing on how many actually hit within a certain timeframe.

Nobody is arguing range, especially because Yuta sure as hell can't dodge Sukuna's DE slashes either.

At a slower rate than Fern.

"He's got a 0.00001% hit rate, he's accurate"
"He can actually make it so a hundred million slashes spawn instantly on a target even though that's never happened, and the most he's done is like a dozen on a single target at once".

Sukuna has no feat, showing, or statement implying he just randomly decides to attack everything else for the fun of it, and is just sandbagging and only using a negligible amount of slashes on a foe.
That would be, because he can't. Mal simply targets everything in the domain, once things get destroyed, that doesn't mean the slashes that were used to destroy those suddenly get redirected on the single target, we straight up know that isn't the case because we see this happen in real time against Maho.

The Yuji example? You mean where where he got his torso blown out? Or when Sukuna held back?
I don't even think we accept they spawn inside people on wiki, actually doesn't make much sense thinking on it because by that logic it'd spawn inside their brains and stuff, which it don't.

Aaaaand, because Fern is faster?

Oh, oh there it is. Assume.
Hate to break it to you, but I'm not assuming, I'm counting, I counted how many slashes hit Maho within a 3 second window. It's a lot, something like 70+. It's also nowhere near what you claim.
It would, in fact, actually be on par with Fern give or take, same ballpark over that many seconds from the same pov. IF, they were equal speed, it isn't, she's faster.

You're conflating the entirety of Sukuna's DE, every slash that occupies it, to be the amount that struck his targets, this is so disingenuous that I legitimately can't take a single one of arguments seriously now.

You and me have very different definitions of instant.
Also there's no way in hell you're conveniently ignoring right after where we can count how many attacks he's actually getting hit by.

Also stop linking suspicious sites, clip that shit on yt or imgur.

Please go give Yuji mid-high regen, I'll wait.

Except she does? She's done it against multiple demons, mages, monsters and more?
In fact she's flown in EVERY fight she's been in the, the only exception are a wolf she one shot, a phantom she one shot, and Ehre who was flying around instead.

I'm getting sick of repeating myself on the Cursed Speech thing, I'll be waiting for proof on the db count or a CRT.

Because he literally can't? Does he have multiple selves?
Are you actually asking why he can't do 3 different actions in one action?

Stop talking. You sound like the other dude goddamn.

"Her manipulating her blasts is questionable, ignore how she did so in that very fight lol".

Could? You mean like she always does? You realize even it just curving is her controlling it right?

No he can't, he's slower, nobody in JJK has ever used to cover themselves completely, and just long cumbersome actions against beams multiple times faster than him is beyond a stupid act.

And then she damage boosts.

Which is bound to said sound and needs it as a conduit to travel. Don't like it, go CRT.

Which she won't because Yuta doesnt have a way to prevent Zoltraak from exploding. And it's going to first as she's quicker on the draw,

Uh, because she does that in character and he can tank them?

Is Fern suddenly an idiot who doesn't attack, doesn't move, only attacks once and never again? Because that's basically what you've argued. I can't take your arguments in good faith at this point.

Yep ignore all those monsters.

Only if you assume he gets a million free actions, ignore how we actually accept cursed Speech to function as, and just headcanon stuff.

No? Not without explicit proof? In fact by default they don't. Hell if JJK was using creation feats to scale, they'd be like 7-A thinking on it, the fact we don't do that is a huge red flag.

Not that it matters, the ice calc is faulty anyway, the volume obtained from the mass and the pixel scaling is just poorly done.

yeah no I spent like a whole 10 minutes reading this and it's just the same shit over and over again

you claim something, I give a rebuttal, you ignore the rebuttal to insult me and repeat yourself, I tell you you're repeating yourself and force myself to repeat myself just to keep this conversation going, you ignore it again and just continue to repeat yourself while continuing to ignore everything I say

I'm not gonna waste my time with this any further

 

[Chariot190]

yeah no I spent like a whole 10 minutes reading this and it's just the same shit over and over again

Unfortunate isn't it?

you claim something, I give a rebuttal,

Your rebuttals are often insufficient, objectively wrong, are borderline nonsense. Like my dude you legit argued things like damage boost only works on demons, or Fern doesn't control her beams, kinda shot yourself in the foot there.

you ignore the rebuttal

I wish I ignored half of what you said, it really wasn't worth my time.

to insult me

I didn't insult you a single time despite whatever I might've wanted.

and repeat yourself,

Hey maybe don't say the exact same thing 29 times and I wouldn't have to.

I tell you you're repeating yourself

I'll repeat it however many times I have to. Unless you have an actual argument that doesn't devolve into blatant ignorance or things anyone with eyes could tell isn't actually true (no like seriously, the scans for sky have been posted for example, and every instance of Shrine is on the profile, neither of what you claimed ever happened), I'll say what needs to be said as many times as I must.

and force myself to repeat myself just to keep this conversation going,

Bro, thread ended before you even posted. We're long since past grace, that's all on you.

you ignore it again and just continue to repeat yourself while continuing to ignore everything I say

I really wish i could ignore you, but, unfortunately, I humored you with a reply.

I'm not gonna waste my time with this any further

Concession accepted. Maybe next time don't say nonsense like Sukuna can hit things a hundred million times in a instance thus Gojo or Yuji taking cuts is impressive (took maybe a dozen or two?), using suspect feats which from the looks of it you aren't even sure we use now, ignoring the very profile you claim to use, or just ignoring the most basic established concepts on the opposing side like how defense magic works and whatnot.

 

[Epyriel]

wdym by this? I don't know what the abbreviations mean

Uraume uses his cursed energy reserves to create the ice, if that helps, not sure how it would really apply here but I was under the assumption that Uraume could replicate this level of power offensively

NPES stands for ‘Non-Physical Energy System’, it essentially just means that within the magic system in question if you spend a certain amount of energy for example building an ice sculpture, the default assumption would be that you could also put the same amount of energy in any other use of the magic system (like for example a fireball).

UES stands for ‘Universal Energy System’, it means that the magic system in question lets you not only apply equal energy across different uses of the magic system like spells as in the case of an NPES, but also for bolstering your physicality (so you could apply the same energy to for example a fireball, or a punch, or towards bolstering your own durability).

You can read the full page for it here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Universal_Energy_Systems

So far Cursed Energy hasn’t been accepted as either (here is the last thread that tried to get it accepted as a UES), which means scaling off of feats like that would be on a case by case basis.

 

[LaserPrecision]

inb4 LaserPrecision says "Yuta spawns Rika behind Fern"

lol no

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

lol no

Didn’t you say this before

 

[Shmooply]

RIKA GIVE ME ALL YOUR POWER THIS IS BASE FERN WE'RE UP AGAINST