Raiden Downgrade (Genshin Impact) — 1 more Staff Vote (STAFF IS NEEDED)

[Voidnether]

I lowkey need this to pass so I can make another CRT downgrading the traveler's statistics ngl

 

[Furina003]

I don't understand why you're bringing down leylines here, even your crt doesn't discuss leylines at all, be it im2 irminsul or cm2 leyline, it has nothing to do with this crt. it only discusses the realm of consciousness or cm1 raiden

 

[OmniScalator]

I don't understand why you're bringing down leylines here, even your crt doesn't discuss leylines at all, be it im2 irminsul or cm2 leyline, it has nothing to do with this crt. it only discusses the realm of consciousness or cm1 raiden

Bro is like "I may be right here so let's downgrade that too, ahh that too even if it is unrelated"

 

[Voidnether]

I don't understand why you're bringing down leylines here, even your crt doesn't discuss leylines at all, be it im2 irminsul or cm2 leyline, it has nothing to do with this crt. it only discusses the realm of consciousness or cm1 raiden

It's the size, leyline there isn't fundamental to reality but rather a planet (Teyvat) and it's the same with IM2 Irminsul.

Bro is like "I may be right here so let's downgrade that too, ahh that too even if it is unrelated"

Bro didn't even read all of the thread and replied like this anyway

 

[Weaver261]

Basically changing Raiden's Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) to Type 3, that's it.

Since we are doing a downgrade, why not just remove CM itself?
It's just mistranslation from EN localization team and power scalers being power scalers catching any straws they can get to CM xD

Ei's CM Type 1 comes from being able preserve Makoto's Realm Of Consciousness which is described "an abstract concept" by Yae Miko. But in original chinese, there isn't a single word saying "concept" at all. Yae Miko is just saying it's very abstract to the outsiders which means it's hard to grasp and pin point the locations.
Also, the word "抽象" used in the sentence was more of a pratical usage of the word "abstract" instead of philosophical metaphysical usage. So, combining 抽象 with other words can result in differnt meanings.

OG CN text

八重神子：意识空间对外行来说非常抽象。好在我是影的眷属，多少能感应到她的所在之处。

So, yeah just remove CM as a whole xD

 

[Furina003]

It's the size, leyline there isn't fundamental to reality but rather a planet (Teyvat) and it's the same with IM2 Irminsul.

As I explained before, leylines govern the entire reality, not just one specific object, this already meets the classification of cm2 and cm1. So yes, it's the same as before.
I'm just confused, how the realm of consciousness can become a leyline.

 

[Furina003]

Since we are doing a downgrade, why not just remove CM itself?
It's just mistranslation from EN localization team and power scalers being power scalers catching any straws they can get to CM xD

Ei's CM Type 1 comes from being able preserve Makoto's Realm Of Consciousness which is described "an abstract concept" by Yae Miko. But in original chinese, there isn't a single word saying "concept" at all. Yae Miko is just saying it's very abstract to the outsiders which means it's hard to grasp and pin point the locations.
Also, the word "抽象" used in the sentence was more of a pratical usage of the word "abstract" instead of philosophical metaphysical usage. So, combining 抽象 with other words can result in differnt meanings.

OG CN text

So, yeah just remove CM as a whole xD

doesn't change anything, it remains an abstract concept

 

[Weaver261]

doesn't change anything, it remains an abstract concept

Learn to read first before replying.

 

[Furina003]

Learn to read first before replying.

A concept is something abstract, although it is not directly called a concept, but something abstract and can present reality, it already describes a concept.

 

[Voidnether]

Since we are doing a downgrade, why not just remove CM itself?
It's just mistranslation from EN localization team and power scalers being power scalers catching any straws they can get to CM xD

Ei's CM Type 1 comes from being able preserve Makoto's Realm Of Consciousness which is described "an abstract concept" by Yae Miko. But in original chinese, there isn't a single word saying "concept" at all. Yae Miko is just saying it's very abstract to the outsiders which means it's hard to grasp and pin point the locations.
Also, the word "抽象" used in the sentence was more of a pratical usage of the word "abstract" instead of philosophical metaphysical usage. So, combining 抽象 with other words can result in differnt meanings.

OG CN text

So, yeah just remove CM as a whole xD

Good lord

 

[Weaver261]

A concept is something abstract, although it is not directly called a concept, but something abstract and can present reality, it already describes a concept.

A concept is something abstract but it's not always vice versa. Abstract can mean differently depending on each context. The word usage of "abstract" in this context is not in the way of representing reality or influencing it but rather the lack of precision to the outsiders. Moreover, Makoto realm of consciousness doesn't represent anything as a concept.

 

[Furina003]

A concept is something abstract but it's not always vice versa. Abstract can mean differently depending on each context. The word usage of "abstract" in this context is not in the way of representing reality or influencing it but rather the lack of precision to the outsiders. Moreover, Makoto realm of consciousness doesn't represent anything as a concept.

we have to see whether it supports reality or not. Doesn't the realm of consciousness influence reality? This already meets the classification of concepts

 

[Weaver261]

So we have to see whether it supports reality or not. Can't the realm of consciousness influence reality? This already meets the classification of concepts.

That's in the case of correct context for Conceptual manipulation but it's not the case here. Realm of consciousness is not a concept. It was never described as a concept. But it's abstract to outsiders. Because you can't really pin point its location. If you brute force your way thru, chaotic waves will place you unknown corner of space and time. There's nothing conceptual or abstract in term of metaphysical meaning in here. Just give it up

 

[Furina003]

That's in the case of correct context for Conceptual manipulation but it's not the case here. Realm of consciousness is not a concept. It was never described as a concept. But it's abstract to outsiders. Because you can't really pin point its location. If you brute force your way thru, chaotic waves will place you unknown corner of space and time. There's nothing conceptual or abstract in term of metaphysical meaning in here. Just give it up

yeah the concept will also be seen as something abstract by humans, makoto's consciousness is the foundation of the cherry blossom tree that can influence the reality of inazuma's past, this is something that draws abstract things that refer to the conceptual not just perception

 

[SweetDao]

Weaver makes sense imo.

 

[Weaver261]

yeah the concept will also be seen as something abstract by humans, makoto's consciousness is the foundation of the cherry blossom tree that can influence the reality of inazuma's past, this is something that draws abstract things that refer to the conceptual not just perception

You are starting from the conclusion of Makoto's realm of consciousness being a concept which is not. Then, you are trying to add two and two together and making a theory of being a concept which is not true either. Makoto's realm of consciousness didn't directly influence the reality of Inazuma's past. It was Istaroth, the one who can manipulate time. Instead of making theories, please bring explicit proof of Realm of Consciousness being a concept. I will not entertain you any further in this topic since it's already obvious enough to remove fragile Conceptual Manipulation

 

[Furina003]

You are starting from the conclusion of Makoto's realm of consciousness being a concept which is not. Then, you are trying to add two and two together and making a theory of being a concept which is not true either. Makoto's realm of consciousness didn't directly influence the reality of Inazuma's past. It was Istaroth, the one who can manipulate time. Instead of making theories, please bring explicit proof of Realm of Consciousness being a concept. I will not entertain you any further in this topic since it's already obvious enough to remove fragile Conceptual Manipulation

It is precisely because of the power of Istaroth that makes the seed special because it is able to grow in the realm of consciousness and take root in the reality of the real world to the past of Inazuma, because the context of this conceptual is that what happens in the realm of consciousness can affect reality, ei planted the tree in the realm of consciousness and this tree also grew in the real world. So how do we call something that is so abstract and can influence real-world reality, not a metaphysical concept? I think that's enough. but if you still don't agree, that's okay, we just need to wait for the staff to evaluate it

 

[Voidnether]

It is precisely because of the power of Istaroth that makes the seed special because it is able to grow in the realm of consciousness and take root in the reality of the real world to the past of Inazuma, because the context of this conceptual is that what happens in the realm of consciousness can affect reality, ei planted the tree in the realm of consciousness and this tree also grew in the real world. So how do we call something that is so abstract and can influence real-world reality, not a metaphysical concept? I think that's enough. but if you still don't agree, that's okay, we just need to wait for the staff to evaluate it

Something that's very abstract doesn't necessarily equate to a concept, the only reason all this gets accepted is because Miko said it was an abstract "concept". The main focus here is the word concept, that Sacred Sakura was recreated — Not something that was created from scratch, if anything.

 

[Vietthai96]

It is precisely because of the power of Istaroth that makes the seed special because it is able to grow in the realm of consciousness and take root in the reality of the real world to the past of Inazuma, because the context of this conceptual is that what happens in the realm of consciousness can affect reality, ei planted the tree in the realm of consciousness and this tree also grew in the real world. So how do we call something that is so abstract and can influence real-world reality, not a metaphysical concept? I think that's enough. but if you still don't agree, that's okay, we just need to wait for the staff to evaluate it

Look like just subjective reality to me

Anyway, namedrop concept hardly do anything, non-qualifying concept is a thing, and it is on the CM page. Anyway i just talk about general things, no vote

 

[Firestorm808]

Can someone summarize what the alleged Type 1 Concept is?

 

[Voidnether]

Can someone summarize what the alleged Type 1 Concept is?

Basically 4 paragraph + 5 scans

• Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; Ei preserved Raiden Makoto's realm of consciousness ever since her death 500 years ago.[5] Yae Miko stated that Realms of Consciousness are very abstract concepts that exist outside the world of Teyvat.[3] Even after Makoto's death and when her consciousness faded away, the domain of her Realm of Consciousness still remained intact.[3] The Sacred Sakura Tree of Makoto's Realm of Consciousness rooted into Inazuma's past, thus its history, and absorbed the filth from the cataclysm that was imposed upon Inazuma[3]) Scans is on Ei's profile

1. Ei preserved Raiden Makoto's realm of consciousness ever since her death 500 years ago.
2. Yae Miko stated that Realms of Consciousness are very abstract concepts that exist outside the world of Teyvat.
3. Even after Makoto's death and when her consciousness faded away, the domain of her Realm of Consciousness still remained intact.
4. Realm of Consciousness still remained intact. The Sacred Sakura Tree of Makoto's Realm of Consciousness rooted into Inazuma's past, thus its history, and absorbed the filth from the cataclysm that was imposed upon Inazuma.
Counterargument is that if it was truly independent, Ei wouldn't have to preserve it + Realm of Consciousness still exist because there's still a fragment of Makoto's consciousness before it's eventually gone to make Musou Isshin. Apparently in the Chinese text, it was never stated to be a concept for the second one and the 4th one is pretty much obvious (I already explained about the Sacred Sakura). Either replaced to Type 2/3 or this just gets removed, if it gets removed then it would affect the others given CM1 derives from Realm of Consciousness too as the main justification with CM2 in there not inherently fundamental to reality but to Teyvat (Which is also its IM2)

BDE1 on the other hand is simply transcending the Human World, we know the Human World terminology refers to Teyvat (according to the wiki) since there are 3 realms (Light, Human and Void Realm) and yeah not only Human World isn't universal but there's no justifications for lack of space-time or anything or even a space-time continuum that it was transcending

So, TLDR:
CM1 becomes CM2/3 or it gets removed completely that's related to Realm of Consciousness, CM2 in Leyline is replaced to CM3 and IM2 is replaced to IM1 with BDE1 being removed

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

I lowkey need this to pass so I can make another CRT downgrading the traveler's statistics ngl

whats the downgrade

 

[Voidnether]

whats the downgrade

Removing the possibly 5-B and 6-B, he's only comparable to the strongest vision users and they're below 6-B at max (Cause 6-B is reserved for Archons, 5-B is reserved for those who are higher)

 

[Firestorm808]

Basically 4 paragraph + 5 scans

1. Ei preserved Raiden Makoto's realm of consciousness ever since her death 500 years ago.
2. Yae Miko stated that Realms of Consciousness are very abstract concepts that exist outside the world of Teyvat.
3. Even after Makoto's death and when her consciousness faded away, the domain of her Realm of Consciousness still remained intact.
4. Realm of Consciousness still remained intact. The Sacred Sakura Tree of Makoto's Realm of Consciousness rooted into Inazuma's past, thus its history, and absorbed the filth from the cataclysm that was imposed upon Inazuma.
Counterargument is that if it was truly independent, Ei wouldn't have to preserve it + Realm of Consciousness still exist because there's still a fragment of Makoto's consciousness before it's eventually gone to make Musou Isshin. Apparently in the Chinese text, it was never stated to be a concept for the second one and the 4th one is pretty much obvious (I already explained about the Sacred Sakura). Either replaced to Type 2/3 or this just gets removed, if it gets removed then it would affect the others given CM1 derives from Realm of Consciousness too as the main justification with CM2 in there not inherently fundamental to reality but to Teyvat (Which is also its IM2)

BDE1 on the other hand is simply transcending the Human World, we know the Human World terminology refers to Teyvat (according to the wiki) since there are 3 realms (Light, Human and Void Realm) and yeah not only Human World isn't universal but there's no justifications for lack of space-time or anything or even a space-time continuum that it was transcending

So, TLDR:
CM1 becomes CM2/3 or it gets removed completely that's related to Realm of Consciousness, CM2 in Leyline is replaced to CM3 and IM2 is replaced to IM1 with BDE1 being removed

I don't see how any concept was manipulated at all in this description.

 

[Voidnether]

I don't see how any concept was manipulated at all in this description.

So, you'd lean with it being removed I suppose?

 

[Firestorm808]

So, you'd lean with it being removed I suppose?

It seems so.

My understanding of concept manipulation, especially for type 1, is that you can change the very definition of a foundational concept.

For example, I changed the conceptual definition of a circle to be equivalent to that of a square. In turn, anything under the Circle concept umbrella is changed to fit the new definition.

 

[Furina003]

Basically 4 paragraph + 5 scans

1. Ei preserved Raiden Makoto's realm of consciousness ever since her death 500 years ago.
2. Yae Miko stated that Realms of Consciousness are very abstract concepts that exist outside the world of Teyvat.
3. Even after Makoto's death and when her consciousness faded away, the domain of her Realm of Consciousness still remained intact.
4. Realm of Consciousness still remained intact. The Sacred Sakura Tree of Makoto's Realm of Consciousness rooted into Inazuma's past, thus its history, and absorbed the filth from the cataclysm that was imposed upon Inazuma.
Counterargument is that if it was truly independent, Ei wouldn't have to preserve it + Realm of Consciousness still exist because there's still a fragment of Makoto's consciousness before it's eventually gone to make Musou Isshin. Apparently in the Chinese text, it was never stated to be a concept for the second one and the 4th one is pretty much obvious (I already explained about the Sacred Sakura). Either replaced to Type 2/3 or this just gets removed, if it gets removed then it would affect the others given CM1 derives from Realm of Consciousness too as the main justification with CM2 in there not inherently fundamental to reality but to Teyvat (Which is also its IM2)

BDE1 on the other hand is simply transcending the Human World, we know the Human World terminology refers to Teyvat (according to the wiki) since there are 3 realms (Light, Human and Void Realm) and yeah not only Human World isn't universal but there's no justifications for lack of space-time or anything or even a space-time continuum that it was transcending

So, TLDR:
CM1 becomes CM2/3 or it gets removed completely that's related to Realm of Consciousness, CM2 in Leyline is replaced to CM3 and IM2 is replaced to IM1 with BDE1 being removed

I don't understand why you included leylines and irminsul, Makoto's realm of consciousness has nothing to do with it.

 

[Voidnether]

I don't understand why you included leylines and irminsul, Makoto's realm of consciousness has nothing to do with it.

CM1 in Elemental Manipulation page covers the Realm of Consciousness too, the one related with True Will and the BDE1

 

[Furina003]

CM1 in Elemental Manipulation page covers the Realm of Consciousness too, the one related with True Will and the BDE1

you should read cm2 leyline, leyline and makoto's realm of consciousness are 2 different things. you only discuss makoto's realm, not leyline

 

[SuperNova55555]

Basically 4 paragraph + 5 scans

1. Ei preserved Raiden Makoto's realm of consciousness ever since her death 500 years ago.
2. Yae Miko stated that Realms of Consciousness are very abstract concepts that exist outside the world of Teyvat.
3. Even after Makoto's death and when her consciousness faded away, the domain of her Realm of Consciousness still remained intact.
4. Realm of Consciousness still remained intact. The Sacred Sakura Tree of Makoto's Realm of Consciousness rooted into Inazuma's past, thus its history, and absorbed the filth from the cataclysm that was imposed upon Inazuma.
Counterargument is that if it was truly independent, Ei wouldn't have to preserve it + Realm of Consciousness still exist because there's still a fragment of Makoto's consciousness before it's eventually gone to make Musou Isshin. Apparently in the Chinese text, it was never stated to be a concept for the second one and the 4th one is pretty much obvious (I already explained about the Sacred Sakura). Either replaced to Type 2/3 or this just gets removed, if it gets removed then it would affect the others given CM1 derives from Realm of Consciousness too as the main justification with CM2 in there not inherently fundamental to reality but to Teyvat (Which is also its IM2)

BDE1 on the other hand is simply transcending the Human World, we know the Human World terminology refers to Teyvat (according to the wiki) since there are 3 realms (Light, Human and Void Realm) and yeah not only Human World isn't universal but there's no justifications for lack of space-time or anything or even a space-time continuum that it was transcending

So, TLDR:
CM1 becomes CM2/3 or it gets removed completely that's related to Realm of Consciousness, CM2 in Leyline is replaced to CM3 and IM2 is replaced to IM1 with BDE1 being removed

Even if it was called a concept, how would that matter if it didn’t show the important characteristics related to it (as in, things participating in the concept)?

Because at the very best, this all seems like some abstract conceptual realm, which would only qualify for Type 3 with no additional proof to the workings of the specific concepts.

I’m confused how this even passed in the first place because simply being “independent” from some physical realm is no proof at all.

 

[Voidnether]

Even if it was called a concept, how would that matter if it didn’t show the important characteristics related to it (as in, things participating in the concept)?

Because at the very best, this all seems like some abstract conceptual realm, which would only qualify for Type 3 with no additional proof to the workings of the specific concepts.

That's assuming there were concepts being manipulated in the first place

you should read cm2 leyline, leyline and makoto's realm of consciousness are 2 different things. you only discuss makoto's realm, not leyline

When I explained that Teyvat is planetary, and when there were discussion back in page 1 where you don't necessarily have to be universal in size. I explained that Leyline's CM2 there is only fundamental to Teyvat which is a planet, it's CM3 at best since it would only be CM2 if it was fundamental to reality itself. There's a difference between this, and that was assuming there were concepts being manipulated too because Leyline's CM2 is similar to Realm of Consciousness where there's simply no concept being manipulated at all. Even the CM3 stuff from Night Kingdom is very evident in the justification that they created concepts, whilst this one is just not justified at all

 

[Furina003]

When I explained that Teyvat is planetary, and when there were discussion back in page 1 where you don't necessarily have to be universal in size. I explained that Leyline's CM2 there is only fundamental to Teyvat which is a planet, it's CM3 at best since it would only be CM2 if it was fundamental to reality itself. There's a difference between this, and that was assuming there were concepts being manipulated too because Leyline's CM2 is similar to Realm of Consciousness where there's simply no concept being manipulated at all. Even the CM3 stuff from Night Kingdom is very evident in the justification that they created concepts, whilst this one is just not justified at all

As stated before, cm2 is independent of size, a concept that is proven to support all of reality will be a type 2 concept.

 

[Weaver261]

It's pointless to keep arguing about Conceptual Manipulation when there's nothing in the context that say "concept" in the first place. It's just a mistranslation.

Since we are doing a downgrade, why not just remove CM itself?
It's just mistranslation from EN localization team and power scalers being power scalers catching any straws they can get to CM xD

Ei's CM Type 1 comes from being able preserve Makoto's Realm Of Consciousness which is described "an abstract concept" by Yae Miko. But in original chinese, there isn't a single word saying "concept" at all. Yae Miko is just saying it's very abstract to the outsiders which means it's hard to grasp and pin point the locations.
Also, the word "抽象" used in the sentence was more of a pratical usage of the word "abstract" instead of philosophical metaphysical usage. So, combining 抽象 with other words can result in differnt meanings.

OG CN text

So, yeah just remove CM as a whole xD

 

[Voidnether]

As stated before, cm2 is independent of size, a concept that is proven to support all of reality will be a type 2 concept.

"Support all of reality" That would be the case if Leyline weren't exclusive to Teyvat, but Leyline is exclusive to Teyvat and that was the main justification for it cause there are three different leylines (One in Light Realm, one in Human Realm which is the one that governs Teyvat and the one in the Void Realm / Abyss). Problem is the one used as CM2 justification is the leyline in Teyvat, it's not like anyone is capable of manipulating void realm leylines or light realm one anyway

 

[Furina003]

"Support all of reality" That would be the case if Leyline weren't exclusive to Teyvat, but Leyline is exclusive to Teyvat and that was the main justification for it cause there are three different leylines (One in Light Realm, one in Human Realm which is the one that governs Teyvat and the one in the Void Realm / Abyss). Problem is the one used as CM2 justification is the leyline in Teyvat, it's not like anyone is capable of manipulating void realm leylines or light realm one anyway

stop discussing size, because there is no size requirement to get CM2.

2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.

 

[MSahla]

It's pointless to keep arguing about Conceptual Manipulation when there's nothing in the context that say "concept" in the first place. It's just a mistranslation.

Nuh uh, CM cannot be remove from genshin whatsoever.

 

[Weaver261]

Nuh uh, CM cannot be remove from genshin whatsoever.

I don't disagree with CM existing in genshin but I disagree with Archons having CM Type 1 via Realm Of Consciousness. You should read carefully.

 

[Voidnether]

stop discussing size, because there is no size requirement to get CM2.

NO ONE TALKED ABOUT SIZE, if we talked about the size in the first place then that same reality should be universal when it shouldn't. You know if your reading comprehension is a little bit better, you would've known better.

Literally the sole reason why Human World's leyline that was used as a justification for CM2 and this is assuming they manipulated the concept itself because they're not, it's only fundamental and it only pertains to Teyvat instead of the reality as a whole. That's the entire problem with the CM2. What made you assume that I was still talking about the size? CM2 is equated to IM2 in which they're the building block of reality, if they're just the building block of Teyvat then it's CM3.

 

[OmniScalator]

NO ONE TALKED ABOUT SIZE, if we talked about the size in the first place then that same reality should be universal when it shouldn't. You know if your reading comprehension is a little bit better, you would've known better.

Literally the sole reason why Human World's leyline that was used as a justification for CM2 and this is assuming they manipulated the concept itself because they're not, it's only fundamental and it only pertains to Teyvat instead of the reality as a whole. That's the entire problem with the CM2. What made you assume that I was still talking about the size? CM2 is equated to IM2 in which they're the building block of reality, if they're just the building block of Teyvat then it's CM3.

Ummm, it works for part of reality too, whole reality is not needed

 

[Voidnether]

Ummm, it works for part of reality too, whole reality is not needed

Question about layered hax limit

For the sake of someone off site I wanted to ask these questions regarding layered hax Can a character with layered 3D hax ever outhax someone with baseline 4D hax/resistances? Or do layers =/= dimensional difference? As far as I am aware, a character can have an infinite amount of layered hax...

vsbattles.com

Literally just read what I said about this lmao