Narutoverse Speed Revision [Mid-Tiers]

[Testarossa002]

Hello
After 4 months of work, it's finally here
This thread aims to revise the speed of Narutoverse mid tiers by rewording current justifications, upgrading via new calcs, and even downgrading some stuff. Some characters even have their keys reworked. Now, I’m not a walking Naruto encyclopedia. I don’t know every single obscure databook entry or editor comments that may change the way some characters are scaled. If you happen to have said knowledge, feel free to share it with the class.

Main Calculations

• Kakashi reacts to False Darkness: 0.028 c (Sub-Relativistic)
• Sasuke counters Mifune’s swordmanship: 0.86 c (Relativistic+)

Supporting Calculations

• Konohamaru dodges lightning: Mach 3166.6 (Massively Hypersonic+)
• Shino dodges lightning: Mach 6794.7 (Massively Hypersonic+)
• Sarada reacts to lightning: 0.017 c (Sub-Relativistic)
• Kakashi outruns False Darkness: 0.02 c (Sub-Relativistic)

Scaling Notes

• The Sub-Relativistic characters scale to Kakashi’s feat (0.028 c)
• The Relativistic characters scale 5x the Sub-Relativistic characters (0.14 c)
• The lowest Relativistic+ characters scale 5x the Relativistic characters (0.7 c)
• The highest Relativistic+ characters scale to Sasuke’s feat (0.86 c)
• The FTL characters scale to the baseline value of the tier via upscaling from the highest Relativistic+ characters (1 c)

Here is a sandbox for the changes

Spoiler: Main Note

Sasuke Uchiha
I know this isn’t what a lot of us expected, but as seen in the sandbox, he’s not scaling to the aforementioned calc in a blanket way - only his reactions get the rating. Why? Despite arguments made by staff, blocking something with a sword isn’t going to qualify for Combat Speed. I tried to argue against that position myself, but it is what it is. Who knows, future revisions might upend that position, but I don’t have the energy to wait that long. This means that not a lot of characters would be scaling to that calc, as Sasuke is rarely overwhelmed speedwise.
I don’t think this is enough because I made some last-minute changes, but here is a scaling map for the Sasuke feat.

Spoiler: Other Notes

• The Kakashi calc is much easier, as most people already scale to the tier. It’s simply updating values (0.02 c > 0.028 c) and reworking justifications where necessary. If you can’t find a character in the sandbox and they scale to the calc, it means I find the current justification good enough. For example, Hidan.
• There would be a follow-up thread to clean up some profiles as they’re gaining additional keys. So the other sections need to be updated to match. These characters are:
  • Gaara: An additional key is needed to differentiate his post-jinchūriki self from his late War Arc version, as he became stronger than before.
  • Kakashi: An extra key is needed to reconcile the differences in his power levels between the early and later parts of the War Arc.
  • Guy: His “base” key is split into Pre-War and War arc keys for better accuracy
  • Sakura: I’m still not sure what to do with her scaling in general. I still have this thread, which was supposed to address it, but was promptly forgotten by me. The next thread would finalize that.
• Conversely, some characters have a speed rating for certain keys missing for some reason. I fixed this. These include:
  • Sasuke: His Taka and FKS speed keys are merged for some reason
  • Tsunade: No speed rating for her 2GNW key
  • Naruto (Pre War): No speed rating for his 2nd key
• If you’re wondering why Boruto-era calcs are used as supporting feats, it’s because Boruto intersects with Naruto through the Timeslip Arc. As a result, characters like KN0–3 Naruto and Jiraiya benefit from that crossover.
• Again, this revision focuses on Narutoverse mid-tiers—up to Juubito/Hashirama level. Discussions involving Six Paths-tier characters won’t be entertained
• I was going to do a character-by-character breakdown, but I’m mentally exhausted at this point. If any clarifications are needed on scaling, I’ll answer them in later messages.

Credits to Floxy and David for their help with the calcs. Also, to Slayer for his knowledgeable inputs from time to time. Lastly, to Sparkle for his "help" with some justifications, especially for Minato and Gaara (I lifted it off his sandbox)
As always, keep it respectable, and let’s try to wrap this up in 2 pages
Agree: @Nierre @LordTracer @LephyrTheRevanchist (just the use of False Darkness) @DarkDragonMedeus (Kakashi's section) @Damage3245

Disagree:
Neutral: @LephyrTheRevanchist (Sasuke's section) @DarkDragonMedeus (Sasuke's section)

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Following. New T7 feats being used is a bit iffy to me, but great work regardless. Put me down for agree.

 

[BlackeJan]

I agree but I do wanna say this, anyone who is stronger then Hebi should be scaling to Kirin especially a half dead Itachi who was able to react to it in time

Also SM Naruto should be Rel even before the the war considering he’s a lot stronger then Sasuke

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Nice work, been waiting on this one, will give my thoughts later

 

[Kaydee1648]

Agree
feel the justification for minato “FTL with shun-shin” bit can be applicable to his overall speed rating

 

[Testarossa002]

anyone who is stronger then Hebi should be scaling to Kirin especially a half dead Itachi who was able to react to it in time

It's not really quantifiable as they don't need to be as fast as Kirin in order to outrun it. That thing was fired from like 3km

Also SM Naruto should be Rel even before the the war considering he’s a lot stronger then Sasuke

The scaling for Rel starts from WA Kakashi's Raikiri to KCM 1 and there onward
I don't think SM Naruto (pre war) has any scaling to those on that chain
Sasuke himself doesn't scale there until WA
I'm open to new evidence though

 

[BlackeJan]

Well I would assume people who is immensely powerful would scale to it at least or get a likely with it

I don't think SM Naruto (pre war) has any scaling to those on that chain

i mean these are people who would outpass Hebi Sasuke in a fight and dog walk him though idk how scaling is suppose to be really cause I assume if someone is stronger then that person regardless what arc then they would scale to it. Like if ya think about it, a dying/close to losing chakra Itachi still reacted to an SoL attack from that distance and Edo Itachi (free from illness/near full power) could fight KCM toe to toe which mean those 2 would blitz anything Sasuke throws at them

 

[karo_senpaii]

Changes look fine to me. Nice work

 

[Damage3245]

I disagree with using the Sasuke/Mifune calc. Mifune didn't use his Iaido against Sasuke and that was the part of his swordsmanship that we accepted as lightspeed, not every sword swing.

 

[Testarossa002]

I disagree with using the Sasuke/Mifune calc. Mifune didn't use his Iaido against Sasuke and that was the part of his swordsmanship that we accepted as lightspeed, not every sword swing.

From the CRT itself

Mifune’s most renowned sword technique is Iaido, a swift and precise quick-draw style. It is his signature move, earning him widespread recognition—even among seasoned shinobi, as noted by Hanzo. This technique is particularly admired for its exceptional speed, allowing Mifune to strike before shinobi opponents have the chance to form hand signs—effectively overwhelming them in a blitz.

The databook outrightly outlines that scene with sasuke as a depiction of his quick draw (Iaido)
So, I'm not sure where your idea is coming from

 

[Damage3245]

From the CRT itself

The databook outrightly outlines that scene with sasuke as a depiction of his quick draw (Iaido)
So, I'm not sure where your idea is coming from

In the manga itself we can see that Mifune's sword is already drawn when he goes to Sasuke. It's not him performing an Iaido slash.

That section of the databook pointing to the panel also states that his strikes don't allow Shinobi to form hand-seals which isn't relevant to the Sasuke panel because he never tried to form a handseal there, and it's instead referring to a different scene where he fought against Hanzo.

 

[Testarossa002]

In the manga itself we can see that Mifune's sword is already drawn when he goes to Sasuke. It's not him performing an Iaido slash.

You do know that "Iaido" is a fan made term, right? The materials just describe it as a quick slash. And yeah, that is a quick slash.

That section of the databook pointing to the panel also states that his strikes don't allow Shinobi to form hand-seals which isn't relevant to the Sasuke panel because he never tried to form a handseal there, and it's instead referring to a different scene where he fought against Hanzo.

Idk what to tell you, man.
The scene is right there and it's pointing straight at it.
The hanzo panel there is also irrelevant because Hanzo wasn't using/attempting to use handsigns there either.
In fact, Hanzo never used it during their entire encounter.
Most ninjas use hand-signs in combat, hence why It's used as a qualifier since it's something he gained via reputation as Hanzo states
Even if all that weren't true, the databook EXPLICITLY references the Sasuke scene

 

[Damage3245]

The hanzo panel there is also irrelevant because Hanzo wasn't using/attempting to use handsigns there either.
In fact, Hanzo never used it during their entire encounter.

Yes, he did.

And Iaido isn't just a fanmade term; it is a swordmanship term that has actual meaning. It's what he did in the actual scene that refers to his light-speed sword slash; Iaido is a technique that involves drawing the sword for a quick attack.

I don't think the databook explicitly refers to the Sasuke scene as Mifune using a lightspeed technique against him. It's a pretty huge extrapolation to assume that all of Mifune's sword attacks are done at the speed of light.

I've cast my vote for it. I'll step back and let others evaluate it for now.

 

[Ezaru]

It's not really quantifiable as they don't need to be as fast as Kirin in order to outrun it. That thing was fired from like 3km

The scaling for Rel starts from WA Kakashi's Raikiri to KCM 1 and there onward
I don't think SM Naruto (pre war) has any scaling to those on that chain
Sasuke himself doesn't scale there until WA
I'm open to new evidence though

Isnt Sasuke scaling to rel+ here?

WA Kakashi >/~ FKS Sasuke no?

You do know that "Iaido" is a fan made term, right? The materials just describe it as a quick slash. And yeah, that is a quick slash.

Idk what to tell you, man.
The scene is right there and it's pointing straight at it.
The hanzo panel there is also irrelevant because Hanzo wasn't using/attempting to use handsigns there either.
In fact, Hanzo never used it during their entire encounter.
Most ninjas use hand-signs in combat, hence why It's used as a qualifier since it's something he gained via reputation as Hanzo states
Even if all that weren't true, the databook EXPLICITLY references the Sasuke scene

Do you have a link to the CRT?

Im new here

I thought that his swordsmanship in general was light speed:

"The light-speed blade becomes a flying slash and strikes the enemy!
It's a blow that combines the noted sword Kurosawa and Mifune's swordsmanship!!"

It's a pretty huge extrapolation to assume that all of Mifune's sword attacks are done at the speed of light.

I know it isnt exact, but if he can attack at light speed, his attacks that arent laido are probably near light speed

 

[DavidTPPM]

And Iaido isn't just a fanmade term; it is a swordmanship term that has actual meaning. It's what he did in the actual scene that refers to his light-speed sword slash; Iaido is a technique that involves drawing the sword for a quick attack.

And you're genuinely saying Mifune took his sword out of its sheath just to perform movement IDENTICAL to a drawing a sword but significantly slower?

This just looks like arguing semantics for no reason.
"no he didn't quickdraw, he performed the exact same identical movement but without a sheath"

I don't think the databook explicitly refers to the Sasuke scene as Mifune using a lightspeed technique against him. It's a pretty huge extrapolation to assume that all of Mifune's sword attacks are done at the speed of light.

 

[MeiouHades]

I almost wanna agree because it'll be funny to see the scaling chain if 0.86C gets accepted, but I'm also a Naruto downplayer so I don't wanna agree to anything high-end.... decisions....

 

[Testarossa002]

Yes, he did.

Sure, but he wasn't using in the databook scan for their fight. Which is what your initial stuff was about.

And Iaido isn't just a fanmade term;

It is in Naruto. All that's stated is "quick stroke".

I don't think the databook explicitly refers to the Sasuke scene as Mifune using a lightspeed technique against him.

There's a literal arrow pointing at the scan. I don't know how much more explicit it can get

Isnt Sasuke scaling to rel+ here?

Rel+/FTL Reactions
Like I said, it's not a blanket speed upgrade

Do you have a link to the CRT?

From the CRT itself

Here

I almost wanna agree because it'll be funny to see the scaling chain if 0.86C gets accepted, but I'm also a Naruto downplayer so I don't wanna agree to anything high-end.... decisions....

The scaling chain is in the OP

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

. It's not him performing an Iaido slash.

Iaido is the act of quickly drawing and reacting to sudden attacks with your sword strike WHICH HE LITERALLY DOES, he does everything that would qualify as Iaido and then the panel deadass lists that interaction as a reference for his Iaido , at this point this is terrible argument from ignorance

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I almost wanna agree because it'll be funny to see the scaling chain if 0.86C gets accepted, but I'm also a Naruto downplayer so I don't wanna agree to anything high-end.... decisions....

Take your goonery to the general threads, this thread's controversial by nature, we don't want any derailment that might make it hard for evaluating staff

 

[BlackeJan]

Well I would assume people who is immensely powerful would scale to it at least or get a likely with it

i mean these are people who would outpass Hebi Sasuke in a fight and dog walk him though idk how scaling is suppose to be really cause I assume if someone is stronger then that person regardless what arc then they would scale to it. Like if ya think about it, a dying/close to losing chakra Itachi still reacted to an SoL attack from that distance and Edo Itachi (free from illness/near full power) could fight KCM toe to toe which mean those 2 would blitz anything Sasuke throws at them

.

 

[Testarossa002]

Well I would assume people who is immensely powerful would scale to it at least or get a likely with it

They are already FTL via other means
The Juubi, A4, Minato, Itachi and so on are already FTL
They, however don't need to scale above Kirin. Kirin, by nature of its mechanics, needs to be fired from Cloud heights (>3km)
By logic, you can evade it (with ease) without needing to be as fast/faster than it.

i mean these are people who would outpass Hebi Sasuke in a fight and dog walk him though idk how scaling is suppose to be really cause I assume if someone is stronger then that person regardless what arc then they would scale to it.

I'm confused rn
let me outline the facts
1. SM Naruto (pre war) is stronger/faster than Hebi Sasuke
2. SM Naruto has no line of scaling to the characters who are Relativistic (KCM 1 ish tiers)
3. Hebi Sasuke is also not Relativistic due to having no ties to the aforementioned characters

Like if ya think about it, a dying/close to losing chakra Itachi still reacted to an SoL attack from that distance and Edo Itachi (free from illness/near full power) could fight KCM toe to toe which mean those 2 would blitz anything Sasuke throws at them

Again, these guys are FTL via other means anyway

 

[Ezaru]

It's a pretty huge extrapolation to assume that all of Mifune's sword attacks are done at the speed of light.

I know it isnt exact, but if he can attack at light speed, his attacks that arent laido are probably near light speed

Sure, but he wasn't using in the databook scan for their fight. Which is what your initial stuff was about.

It is in Naruto. All that's stated is "quick stroke".

There's a literal arrow pointing at the scan. I don't know how much more explicit it can get

Rel+/FTL Reactions
Like I said, it's not a blanket speed upgrade


Here

The scaling chain is in the OP

Sure, but he wasn't using in the databook scan for their fight. Which is what your initial stuff was about.

It is in Naruto. All that's stated is "quick stroke".

There's a literal arrow pointing at the scan. I don't know howo

Sure, but he wasn't using in the databook scan for their fight. Which is what your initial stuff was about.

It is in Naruto. All that's stated is "quick stroke".

There's a literal arrow pointing at the scan. I don't know how much more explicit it can get

Rel+/FTL Reactions
Like I said, it's not a blanket speed upgrade


Here

The scaling chain is in the OP

Oh thanks idk how I didnt see it was a hyperlink

Ah so Sasuke only gets reaction and WA Kakashi movement?

Doesnt Kakashi get it through a multiplier?

 

[sageof8paths]

great job, put me down as agree

 

[Metalija]

Agreed. Also Mifune is blatantly using Laido as an attack when assaulting Sasuke, this shouldn't even be debated anymore its a fact.

 

[BlackeJan]

By logic, you can evade it (with ease) without needing to be as fast/faster than it.

I mean if u are faster than someone’s reaction speed u would scale to it. Idk why we can’t do that even if they have no or are in a different scaling it but I’ll go with whatever yall go with

 

[Testarossa002]

I mean if u are faster than someone’s reaction speed u would scale to it. Idk why we can’t do that even if they have no or are in a different scaling it but I’ll go with whatever yall go with

Kirin isn't dependent on Sasuke's reaction speed
Or rather
Kirin's speed isn't dependent on Sasuke's reaction speed

 

[Nierre]

always agreed with it being iaido so obviously agree there. everything else looks fine at a glance

Thanks for bringing up the New Era calcs that makes my next CRT a lot easier too.

 

[BlackeJan]

Kirin isn't dependent on Sasuke's reaction speed
Or rather
Kirin's speed isn't dependent on Sasuke's reaction speed

I was referring to Itachi in this regard

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I agree but I do wanna say this, anyone who is stronger then Hebi should be scaling to Kirin especially a half dead Itachi who was able to react to it in time

He can get perception sure but reaction speed requires a calc that establishes how much Itachi moves in relation to Kirin otherwise it is not usable outside being supporting evidence

i mean these are people who would outpass Hebi Sasuke in a fight and dog walk him though idk how scaling is suppose to be really cause I assume if someone is stronger then that person regardless what arc then they would scale to it. Like if ya think about it, a dying/close to losing chakra Itachi still reacted to an SoL attack from that distance and Edo Itachi (free from illness/near full power) could fight KCM toe to toe which mean those 2 would blitz anything Sasuke throws at them

We don't use arbitrary methods like this that aren't provable, Test's concrete approach is fine as is


you can be MHS and dodge light, being faster than an MHS character is not grounds for light speed scaling, unless they are around 1.3x away from upscaling they will simply remain at their previous tiers with a higher (faster than before) rating

I mean if u are faster than someone’s reaction speed u would scale to it. Idk why we can’t do that even if they have no or are in a different scaling it but I’ll go with whatever yall go with

People that have proven to have speeds above Sasuke's reaction are given flat out scaling (V2 A4), people that have not concretely proven such will scale via other means (shunshin, reactions, susano etc)

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Limiting Sasuke's scaling to the Rel+ to only via reactions seems to me like lowballing for the sake of lowballing. So Sasuke perceived the attack, and then physically responded to it by successfully executing a defensive action. That seems very blatantly combat speed to me.

That said, great thread. I agree with all of it, with a tiny bit disagreement on Sasuke not fully scaling (or at least combat-wise) to the Rel+.

 

[LordTracer]

I agree, good work. My only gripe which I forgot to bring up on Discord, so my bad is that every use of “even far higher” should probably just be “far higher”.

 

[MeiouHades]

Anyway, I read most of everything; I agree with all of this too including Iaido being used against Sasuke, it's too needlessly pedantic to argue it wasn't Iaido.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think it's being pedantic, but it's clear that the majority of users here disagree on that point so I won't contest it here. You can switch me to neutral for the thread.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I'll preface by saying that I'm not contending the general premise of the thread, I just have disagreements with the specifics of the scaling (also kind of wondering about the lack of scans for many things, but that's not a disagreement so much as a note)

• Sasuke's Susanoo isn't whole tiers faster than his combat speed, given that Danzo could physically keep up with it to an extent. Either Sasuke should downscale from his Susanoo or his Susanoo shouldn't be FTL
• KCM2 Naruto grabbed Madara's Susanoo sword, so either his combat speed should be FTL (which I think anyways for reasons clear further down), or he should get an "FTL with chakra arms" rating (Naruto did also physically move his arm though)
• Early WA Kakashi isn't just as fast as his previous versions, he's comparable to Gated Guy and can weave hand signs before V2 Jinchuriki can charge at him. It's also just common sense that if his speed drastically increases in other areas, it'd increase fundamentally too. It's not like he learned an updated version of Raikiri that provides a greater speed boost than before
  • Late WA Kakashi is FTL. His justification already notes his comparable speed to TSOs, which are faster than Late WA Gaara. Additionally, TSOs are faster than Kamui which is rated FTL.
    • This FTL combat speed rating applies to Obito, KCM2 Naruto, Minato, and Kurama as well (I also think Madara scales to KCM2 Naruto given their various encounters, but it is a bit hard to prove in regards to physical combat speed)
• OM Obito's rating says "At Relativistic" and there's a space missing between between OM Obito and Rinnegan Obito
  • Rinnegan Obito should be FTL via relativity to Late WA Kakashi, but also through the feat listed on the sandbox of outspeeding Kakashi's Kamui
  • Rinnegan Obito's Kamui scales to Madara's Susanoo
• Everything I have to say about Tobirama is here and here
• Minato scales above Ay (and is at least in Tobirama's ballpark. Whether Tobirama remains FTL depends on a few things, but he should), and he demonstrates this pretty well when he throws a kunai to V2 Ay's shoulder while Ay's fist is right in front of Minato's face. Minato's combat speed scaling to V2 Ay is additionally supported by the fact that they fought many times, leading Ay to praise him as an unsurpassable shinobi, which wouldn't really make sense if Minato can only keep up in terms of reactions and with Shunshin, as those wouldn't allow Minato to go on the offensive against Ay so much as just stay alive (FTG isn't enough either, because while it helped Minato almost land a sneak attack on Ay the first time, Ay knew about it in all their future encounters), This statement (速度凌駕於雷影的四代火影到底留下了什麼!？) also helps
  • This upscales Obito, Late WA Kakashi, KCM2 Naruto, and Kurama
• Base Naruto probably shouldn't scale to Chiyo, given that it's implied she got stronger through getting her fire back ("visitors fuel the fire in her once more," "serves to jolt Chiyo back into action," "Seeing her struggle ignites the kunoichi fighting spirit in Chiyo"). Chiyo also scales to Sasori who casually repelled KM0 Naruto's attack, and while I'm not trying to get into a big Sasori debate this thread, he should realistically be at least Relativistic via scaling to the 3rd Kazekage, and Rasa/WA Gaara by extension
• Konan's reaction and attack speed are stated to scale to Obito's Kamui, but she doesn't have a rating to reflect that (whether it ends up being Relativistic or FTL)
• The Sannin/Gokage (and everyone that scales to them) should probably downscale from Ay, because even though they're certainly slower, they should at least be able to keep up via the fact that they're comparable if not superior in overall combat ability
• If 100H Tsunade scales to Lightened Ay, she should be FTL. Though I don't really think she does, given that Ay was made heavier right before actually landing his attack, and the timeframe between him and Tsunade attacking is a bit vague
• It should be noted that Sakura scales to Sasori while resolve amped; something like "Sub-Relativistic (Comparable to Base Naruto and can keep up with Kakashi), higher with Shunshin no Jutsu (Her Shunshin was comparable to that of Naruto and Sai) and Empowerment (While getting amped by her strong feelings for Sasuke, she's capable of reacting to Sasori's puppets)
• Kurama's Bijuudamas scaling above Issen should be removed
• The Kage only fought a casual Madara so I don't think that should be used to scale them (while the first statement could just mean not using higher Susanoo stages, the second clearly implies he's not trying to defeat them quickly, and wants to see a good show of their power; this is supported by his general disposition throughout the battle)

 

[Damage3245]

The Sannin/Gokage (and everyone that scales to them) should probably downscale from Ay, because even though they're certainly slower, they should at least be able to keep up via the fact that they're comparable if not superior in overall combat ability

This is really iffy powerscaling in my opinion. If it's not a direct reference to speed, then statements of relative power shouldn't be taken as the characters necessarily being in the same speed tier.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'll preface by saying that I'm not contending the general premise of the thread, I just have disagreements with the specifics of the scaling (also kind of wondering about the lack of scans for many things, but that's not a disagreement so much as a note)

Generally alright imo but

• Sasuke's Susanoo isn't whole tiers faster than his combat speed, given that Danzo could physically keep up with it to an extent. Either Sasuke should downscale from his Susanoo or his Susanoo shouldn't be FTL

The "whole tier" part is a bit misleading, since Susanoo here is upscaling due to being MUCH faster than the user to essentially baseline FTL due to Sasuke already being extremely close to the next tier himself.

So while it seems like it's this huge "tier" sized gap above Sasuke himself, the actual difference is less than 30% which I think definitely doesn't sound like that big of a gap for something like 3t Sasuke and his higher susanoo stages.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

This is really iffy powerscaling in my opinion. If it's not a direct reference to speed, then statements of relative power shouldn't be taken as the characters necessarily being in the same speed tier.

It depends on the context. If it's a statement like "Kurama's Bijuudamas are as strong as Madara's Perfect Susanoo," then yeah it'd be valid to interpret that as just meaning AP, but when a statement is holistically comparing two people, it should take all the aspects of their fighting power into account. Having powerful techniques wouldn't matter if you'd get blitzed and destroyed at the start of the battle.

Generally alright imo but

The "whole tier" part is a bit misleading, since Susanoo here is upscaling due to being MUCH faster than the user to essentially baseline FTL due to Sasuke already being extremely close to the next tier himself.

So while it seems like it's this huge "tier" sized gap above Sasuke himself, the actual difference is less than 30% which I think definitely doesn't sound like that big of a gap for something like 3t Sasuke and his higher susanoo stages.

Talking about the difference between Sasuke's Sub-Relativistic combat speed and the Susanoo's FTL combat speed. Danzo's not scaling to Sasuke's reaction speed afaik

 

[karo_senpaii]

It depends on the context. If it's a statement like "Kurama's Bijuudamas are as strong as Madara's Perfect Susanoo," then yeah it'd be valid to interpret that as just meaning AP, but when a statement is holistically comparing two people, it should take all the aspects of their fighting power into account. Having powerful techniques wouldn't matter if you'd get blitzed and destroyed at the start of the battle.

So rel 100 healings sakura then

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Indeed

 

[Testarossa002]

Spoiler: Let's not do this again

Sasuke's Susanoo isn't whole tiers faster than his combat speed, given that Danzo could physically keep up with it to an extent. Either Sasuke should downscale from his Susanoo or his Susanoo shouldn't be FTL

He got blitzed here, here and here
Got tagged here (despite having a diversion in place) and here
Using one instance where he somewhat reacted to the Susano'o doesn't tell the whole story.

KCM2 Naruto grabbed Madara's Susanoo sword

He got there with Body Flicker

Rinnegan Obito should be FTL via relativity to Late WA Kakashi, but also through the feat listed on the sandbox of outspeeding Kakashi's Kamui

That would be removed. The main feat there is his reaction to Naruto.

Rinnegan Obito's Kamui scales to Madara's Susanoo

Weird. I recall deliberating on the feat and choosing not to use it, but I can't remember why. That's okay

Early WA Kakashi isn't just as fast as his previous versions, he's comparable to Gated Guy and can weave hand signs before V2 Jinchuriki can charge at him. It's also just common sense that if his speed drastically increases in other areas, it'd increase fundamentally too. It's not like he learned an updated version of Raikiri that provides a greater speed boost than before

Ah yes

• He can weave hand signs without needing to be as fast as the Jins. They're covering several meters while he just covered like centimeters
• In addition, the Jins also dodge his raikiri, which is a blitz tier above his regular CS. So, he can't possibly be comparable to them in base
• He's also shown to be comparable to base guy

On the other hand, as you've shown, he's also comparable to Gated Guy. But when compared to his other feats in those chapters, that is starting to look like a standalone feat. Especially when you consider that he could have performed that feat with Shunshin. Like I said in your thread, I can't find a way to incorporate ALL the feats shown by Kakashi (and Guy) in those 20ish chapters. Some stuff would have to be ignored to make sense of the scaling. I can change the wording to "faster than before" though.

Late WA Kakashi is FTL. His justification already notes his comparable speed to TSOs, which are faster than Late WA Gaara. Additionally, TSOs are faster than Kamui which is rated FTL.

Brain freeze moment. I already argued in your thread that it doesn't make a lot of sense that Kakashi's MS is faster than his Kamui speed, given its previous feats

Everything I have to say about Tobirama is here and here

That doesn't affect his rating. He's still going to be FTL via other means in his justification.

Minato scales above Ay

I was tweaking with that justification. It was supposed to go to his Shunshin speed. His regular speed doesn't need to be faster than them when his Shunshin exists. Even more so when he's well-renowned for its usage

is at least in Tobirama's ballpark

extra brain freeze

and he demonstrates this pretty well when he throws a kunai to V2 Ay's shoulder while Ay's fist is right in front of Minato's face.

A4 from 16 years ago isn't FTL
Especially when he's regarded as a "gym bro" who trains his muscles every time the opportunity presents itself [DB4]

Favourite: As Raikage he leads a very busy existence, but once he finds the time, he goes to workout/train his muscles. His strong body is the result.

A took over the position/office from his father, the Third Raikage. Since he has witnessed and observed this indomitable fighter decades-long from nearby, to him a village leader simply has to be strong. For this reason A steels his body with great care and devotes himself to the military armament of his country.

This statement (速度凌駕於雷影的四代火影到底留下了什麼!？) also helps

Not really.

Base Naruto probably shouldn't scale to Chiyo, given that it's implied she got stronger through getting her fire back ("visitors fuel the fire in her once more," "serves to jolt Chiyo back into action," "Seeing her struggle ignites the kunoichi fighting spirit in Chiyo"). Chiyo also scales to Sasori who casually repelled KM0 Naruto's attack, and while I'm not trying to get into a big Sasori debate this thread, he should realistically be at least Relativistic via scaling to the 3rd Kazekage, and Rasa/WA Gaara by extension

I don’t know every single obscure databook entry or editor comments that may change the way some characters are scaled. If you happen to have said knowledge, feel free to share it with the class.

You see. Fairs on the Chiyo point. I'm also interested in your Sasori stuff. You can elaborate off-site

Konan's reaction and attack speed are stated to scale to Obito's Kamui, but she doesn't have a rating to reflect that (whether it ends up being Relativistic or FTL)

Ya, it was deliberate. There's nothing wrong with the justification per se. All that did happen. The issue is, I don't think it qualifies for AS/RS. She mixed the bombs with regular bombs from the get-go, so they weren't added after the fact. And activating the bomb doesn't require any movement at all. I'm unsure what to rate it as. Which is why the Hidan stuff serves as a buffer since it's factually true

The Sannin/Gokage (and everyone that scales to them) should probably downscale from Ay, because even though they're certainly slower, they should at least be able to keep up via the fact that they're comparable if not superior in overall combat ability

Same issue as Minato. A4 consistently trains. So, they don't really need to be as fast as the version of A4 with the FTL rating

If 100H Tsunade scales to Lightened Ay, she should be FTL. Though I don't really think she does, given that Ay was made heavier right before actually landing his attack, and the timeframe between him and Tsunade attacking is a bit vague

It's more of a timing feat and she has other feats regardless

It should be noted that Sakura scales to Sasori while resolve amped; something like "Sub-Relativistic (Comparable to Base Naruto and can keep up with Kakashi), higher with Shunshin no Jutsu (Her Shunshin was comparable to that of Naruto and Sai) and Empowerment (While getting amped by her strong feelings for Sasuke, she's capable of reacting to Sasori's puppets)

goes under my thoughts about Sasori

The Kage only fought a casual Madara so I don't think that should be used to scale them (while the first statement could just mean not using higher Susanoo stages, the second clearly implies he's not trying to defeat them quickly, and wants to see a good show of their power; this is supported by his general disposition throughout the battle)

That he had a casual disposition doesn't mean he's significantly holding back. He had a casual disposition against Tengai Shinsei too.