DELTARUNE; Chapter 3 & 4 !!!SPOILER!!! Discussion Thread

[RinneItachi]

"Hello.

It's almost been 10 years since UNDERTALE released.

Now, I'm looking for your memories.

Let's turn back together.

Face the flower and speak.

memories.undertale.com
UNDERTALE - Memories
memories.undertale.com"


"It would be great if you could submit within 24 hours."



"There are so many submissions, the site is having trouble... If your submission is stuck on 'Submitting', please try sending it again later. Your submission should be auto-saved in your browser."

Could've used more polish but I'm happy with my avatar. I drew Gaster lol.

 

[Comiphorous]

Could've used more polish but I'm happy with my avatar. I drew Gaster lol.

When i look up gaster on VSBattles wiki and Sans is 2-B again

 

[LittleGuy99]

When i look up gaster on VSBattles wiki and Sans is 2-B again

lmao

 

[Axorandom0]

When i look up gaster on VSBattles wiki and Sans is 2-B again

He was 2-B???

 

[Ti58]

He was 2-B???

I don't think he was. Undyne was though.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I was bored so I did this.

Every Feat from ch3 & ch4

AP:

Tenna GBE: 131.89 Kilojoules (Wall Level) - Need Evaluation
Lanino heats things up: 0.00391 Tons of TNT per second (9-B+)
Shadowguys bullets KE: 0.00122144028017378095 Tons of TNT to 0.00400845029720960783 Tons of TNT (Wall Level) - Need Evaluation
Elnina cools things down: 0,005581767 Tons per/s (9-B+) - Need Evaluation
Gerson throws is hammer: 0,013 Tons (Small Building Level+)
Golden Tenna KE: 0,051302641 Tons (Small Building Level) - Need Evaluation
The watercooler shows no mercy: 0,886674051 Tons of TNT (Building Level)
Elnina creates ice crystals - 1.11 Tons of TNT (Building level) - Need Evaluation
Wicabel's Bell: 1.31 Tons of TNT (8-C+, Building Level) - Need Evaluation
HolywaterCooler showns no mercy: 2,614663133 Tons of TNT (Large Building Level)
Tenna weather report: 0,021394794 Tons (Small Building Level) to 1.994990385049 Kilotons (Small Town Level) - Need Evaluation


Speed:
Susie Runs Fast: 102.012289855 m/s, or Subsonic
Tenna Speed: 222.409710925m/s (Subsonic+) - Need Evaluation
Vs Bullets: 259.35m/s or Mach 0.75 (Subsonic) - Need Evaluation
"HERE I COME, PIZZARINA!!!": 329.511717792 m/s or Mach 0.96 (Transonic)
Kris shares their Chocolate Milk with the Player : 548.546370967741935 m/s or Mach 1.6 (Supersonic)
Tenna cuts the screen: 1481.9117647m/s or Mach 4.3204424627 (Supersonic+) - Need Evaluation
Wicabel's Bell: 2401m/s or Mach 7 (Hypersonic) - Need Evaluation
Gerson Speed: 3405.59410072m/s or Mach 9.92 (Hypersonic) - Need Evaluation
Susie moves faster than sound: 800 m/s or Mach 2.33236151603 (Supersonic) to 5920m/s or Mach 17.2594752187 (Hypersonic+) - Need Evaluation
Vs Lightning: 537777.777778m/s or Mach 1567.86524133 (Massively Hypersonic+) - Need Evaluation
Tenna's Lightning Attack: Mach 2092.98757097 (Massively Hypersonic+) to Mach 6954.11999386 (Massively Hypersonic+) - Need Evaluation
Smash Cut: 111200m/s or Mach 324.198250729 (Massively Hypersonic) to 88000000m/s or 0.29353640377c (Relativistic) - Need Evaluation
Shocking Laser Dodge: 43.75% SoL, which is Relativistic - Must be discussed

LS:
Shadowguys bullets KE: 1.38419372003 Tons to 4.54256488714 Tons (Class 5) - Need Evaluation
Gerson throws is hammer: 751347.908287kgf (Class K)
Golden Tenna: 6560700.54238kgf (Class M) - Not Sure - Need Evaluation

Range:

Tenna TP Range: 770.857347593m (Hundreds of Meters)

Bonus:
Thrash Explosion: 0.30 Tons of TNT (Building level) - Need Evaluation?
Kris dodge missiles: 119.158690176m/s to 155.780856423 m/s (Subsonic)
Chaos, Bigger Chaos!: 1.00628884824 tons (Building level) - Need Evaluation

Interestingly, Gerson hammer weights 44 tonnes, and his max speed is 10 Mach. If he is capable of achieving this speed while yielding it, his weapon kinetic energy would be 50 tonnes of TNT, 8-B feat(City Block). It would solidly put him above most of the enemies(which is consistent lore-wise). And this should upscale Susie(and other Delta Warriors), since when using DualBuster her damage number is slightly bigger than Gerson one. I would need to test some interaction and examine some animation to publish it as feat in blog. What do you all think about this calc? And is there anybody who can boot up chapter 4(otherwise, I would check it later tonight)?

 

[Ti58]

Interestingly, Gerson hammer weights 44 tonnes, and his max speed is 10 Mach. If he is capable of achieving this speed while yielding it, his weapon kinetic energy would be 50 tonnes of TNT, 8-B feat(City Block). It would solidly put him above most of the enemies(which is consistent lore-wise). And this should upscale Susie(and other Delta Warriors), since when using DualBuster her damage number is slightly bigger than Gerson one. I would need to test some interaction and examine some animation to publish it as feat in blog. What do you all think about this calc? And is there anybody who can boot up chapter 4(otherwise, I would check it later tonight)?

I am pretty sure this is like calc stacking

 

[Qurbonboev]

I am pretty sure this is like calc stacking

Unfortunate.
Btw, is there any attempts to calc Titan size?

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I attempted to, but it wasn't very good lol

 

[Comiphorous]

For the titan size, perhaps instead of using it's appearance in it's battle, use it's arm for scale when it's first summoned?

 

[Axorandom0]

Unfortunate.
Btw, is there any attempts to calc Titan size?

Yes but it wasn’t in a blog. IIRC they got just under 100 meters and High 8-C PE for the tower.

 

[LittleGuy99]

Yes but it wasn’t in a blog. IIRC they got just under 100 meters and High 8-C PE for the tower.

Although I think the second time the Delta Warriors climbed the tower is not taken into account since they climbed from an unknown point, it is probably bigger than that

 

[rpmblack]

I thought you could calc stack if you find the weight of something and use it for KE?

 

[Qurbonboev]

Yes but it wasn’t in a blog. IIRC they got just under 100 meters and High 8-C PE for the tower.

Seems low. I visually counted at least 160 cells in height and 24 in circumference for second tower. Assuming that 1 cell length is 1 meter, and adding head of the titan, it will get us 8-B PE.

I attempted to, but it wasn't very good lol

I think I remember it, can you link it?

 

[Axorandom0]

Seems low. I visually counted at least 160 cells in height and 24 in circumference for second tower. Assuming that 1 cell length is 1 meter, and adding head of the titan, it will get us 8-B PE.

I think it’s mostly because the volume was low due to the tower being mostly hollow and really thin.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I think it’s mostly because the volume was low due to the tower being mostly hollow and really thin.

Replayed chapter 4. Height of second tower seems to be at least 180 meter(let's use 200m to account for head). Circumference of tower is 22 meter. Volume should be around 7700m^2 total. What is density ot titan? Idk, liquids leaks from the tower, that are dense enough to stall Kris, there are hands inside it. For lowball I would consider 10% of human density, for highball I would consider it's density equivalent to human one. With lowball PE is 9-A, with highball it's 8-C. Titan is really thin and probably is mostly hollow. Unlikely to get upgrades for verse through sheer size alone.

Replaying fight itself and reading wiki show me this picture:

• Attacks when shields up have 0.5 damage multiplier(5 multiplier with Black Shard equipped).
• Attacks when shields are destroyed have 5 damage multiplier(10 multiplier with Black Shard).
• You can destroy outer shield without using Unleash, if you bring Titan health under 50% just by attacking it(Having Black shard is advisable, but not strictly necessary).
• Gerson Hammer throw visibly damages outer shield of Titan, but seems not to dampen it's structural integrity. It would still limit your attacks damage same way that normal shield would do. Even Rude Buster still have 0.5 damage multiplier as normal attacks without Black Shard do. And checking Titan health, it seems that it did not drained it's HP at all. Respectable durability feat for Titan.
• Attacking Outer shield after Gerson appearance is useless. Once Titan health is under 50%, it will just heal itself. Outer shield would still appear as damaged, but won't disappear without using DualBuster.
• DualBuster uses 3 members(Kris, Susie and Gerson), deals around 4k damage, and instantly vaporises outer shield. It's ability to destroy shield is either due to Gerson magic or Soul abilities. I would personally bet that it's due to Soul, since we already can destroy it's shield with Unleash Act.
• When using DualBuster Susie damage number is slightly bigger than Gerson(indicated by color of number). Unless you think that Gerson is holding back in this fight, Susie(and by extension Fun Gang/Delta Warriors) should be comparable to him in AP(but Gerson is definitely much faster).
• Fun Gang is definitely able to banish Titan without help of Gerson. Just use Unleash and in second turn, when shields are not yet up, use Susie idea to dunk on him.

 

[Ti58]

Replayed chapter 4. Height of second tower seems to be at least 180 meter(let's use 200m to account for head). Circumference of tower is 22 meter. Volume should be around 7700m^2 total. What is density ot titan? Idk, liquids leaks from the tower, that are dense enough to stall Kris, there are hands inside it. For lowball I would consider 10% of human density, for highball I would consider it's density equivalent to human one. With lowball PE is 9-A, with highball it's 8-C. Titan is really thin and probably is mostly hollow. Unlikely to get upgrades for verse through sheer size alone.

Try calculating the weight of the stone layer around the Titan's dark fountain inside. Darkness itself is compared to like smoke several times and when Kris and Susie make fountains, the darkness goes towards the top of the room.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Try calculating the weight of the stone layer around the Titan's dark fountain inside. Darkness itself is compared to like smoke several times and when Kris and Susie make fountains, the darkness goes towards the top of the room.

You mean stone that envelops fountain and allows us to climb it? Even if fountain consisted of only stone, it would be only high 8-B.

Some time after creation of fountain, arm violently burst out for it, and soon attacks us. And it bursts out pretty fast. In 2 frames it covers roughly same distance as diameter of fountain(7 meter). Roughly 100m/s. Arms width is around 3m, it's length I would estimate as 20m. Assuming human density, weight should be 200 tonnes. KE should be 10^9 joules, barely not enough for 8-C. But this arm also breaks stone layers, and gives substantial impulse to pretty big stone rockes, so I would consider it a 8-C feat. And this arm also appears in Titan attack, could be usef for speed scaling. Someone with better experience in pixel scaling should look at it

 

[Ti58]

Should Gerson get type 7 immortality?

 

[Imaginym]

 

[Qurbonboev]

Should Gerson get type 7 immortality?

Because he was ressurected via his essence? Probably yes, but if add it, we should add to other Monsters too(Susie, Noelle and Berdly).
Btw, does anybody know why Noelle showgrave feat calc assumes that she is creating ice from oxygen and nitrogen in the air? Most of the time I see ice calcs, they assume that ice is created from water vapor, for example.

 

[Imaginym]

Should Gerson get type 7 immortality?

Because he was ressurected via his essence? Probably yes, but if add it, we should add to other Monsters too(Susie, Noelle and Berdly).
Btw, does anybody know why Noelle showgrave feat calc assumes that she is creating ice from oxygen and nitrogen in the air? Most of the time I see ice calcs, they assume that ice is created from water vapor, for example.

Based on Ralsei's explanation, Dark Worlds are illusions.
Though, that Darkners are definitely the objects, perhaps he is, assuming "Gerson's" Darkner has a Light World form including the dust on his hammer, as opposed to say, just the hammer or the dome.
7: Undead: Characters who cannot die due to technically being already dead, often overlapping with other forms of immortality. This includes characters who can keep existing as spiritual entities upon dying.
Since Type 7 Immortality is being undead, & the only part of his body to be considered "undead" is his dust; His hammer is just a tool of his, & the glass dome a container for his dust.

Does he ever have any dialogue about how if he'll eventually die, since he's sort of 1 or more animated objects?

I'd call it a Likely or Possibly, since it seems a little ambiguous.

Sorry if anyone minds me being like this.

 

[rpmblack]

Should Lightners get ressurection too from dark fountains?

 

[Imaginym]

Should Lightners get ressurection too from dark fountains?

In theory, it should be applicable, but I'd call it Limited, given what Ralsei has said:

• [Ralsei destroys the statue]
• [Lightning strikes]
• [Ralsei] Susie...
• [Ralsei] That wasn't the old man.
• [Susie] H... huh?
• [Lightning strikes, Ralsei looks away]
• [Ralsei] One of the statues in his shape from his study...
• [Ralsei closes his eyes]
• [Ralsei] It must have begun moving when you made this Dark World.
• [Susie looks down]
• [Susie] A... a statue...? Then... the old man...?
• [Ralsei opens his eyes, looks at Susie, takes one step towards her, Susie looks up]
• [Ralsei] He's... not in this world, sadly.
• [Ralsei closes his eyes]
• [Ralsei] Darkners patterned after the memory of a loved one...
• [Ralsei opens his eyes, Susie's eyes darken]
• [Ralsei] Tend to only appear in very specific darknesses.
• [Ralsei closes his eyes, Susie's arm shakes]
• [Ralsei] ... even if we tried to bring him to Castle Town, he...
• [Susie approaches Ralsei, Imminent Death starts playing, Ralsei opens his eyes in shock]
• [Susie] THEN WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY SOMETHING EARLIER!?

From this Deltarune Wiki page: https://deltarune.wiki/w/Sound_of_Justice

Ralsei's explanation indicates Sound of Justice was a statue that began moving when the Second Sanctuary was made; There are no statues in any parts of the church in the Light World, but indeed, there is at least 1 statue in the Old Man's study.

In fact, strangely, the first Dark Sanctuary's study has 2 statues, the 2nd Sanctuary's has 2 & the 3rd Sanctuary's has 1. Did the 2nd statue go for a peaceful walk & then come back?

Anyway, Ralsei states The Old Man isn't in this world, the 2nd Sanctuary & states that "Darkners patterned after the memory of a loved one... tend to only appear in very specific darknesses.".

The glass case had his dust, his hammer AND a photo of him & yet he still didn't show up when Susie made a Dark World in practically the same location, because Dark World's reflect the will & whatnot of their creator; Susie knew the Darkner well, but never met the living Lightner, having known him by proxy at best.

So indeed, as Ralsei said, to get a Darkner patterned after the memory of a specific individual -Or at least, after the memory of a loved one- requires exacting circumstances, because Susie made hers at the same location as the one where she JUST MET & strongly bonded with the Darkner patterned after a Lightner, with near identical Light World circumstances, & again, having an object significant to him, his dust, his hammer, & a photo of him all in a glass case, not to mention his son's office nearby & books written by him in the same room.

& when Susie tried, for all her efforts & despite those super-indicative circumstances, all she got was the animation of a Dark World exclusive statue, which recognized her bond & used it to deceive & attack her.

So I hope you can understand why I think it's Limited & a Possibly/Likely given that it seems to require such specificity as to be impractical, even if we assume The Old Man is truly Gerson Boom.
Does he know all his old students & the contents of all his books? Does he remember his wife, who still lives, with Berdly occasionally doing volunteer work with her?

Put simply, IMHO, there's ambiguity of how well it worked, & getting it to work at all seems difficult.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Anyway, Ralsei states The Old Man isn't in this world, the 2nd Sanctuary & states that "Darkners patterned after the memory of a loved one... tend to only appear in very specific darknesses.".

The glass case had his dust, his hammer AND a photo of him & yet he still didn't show up when Susie made a Dark World in practically the same location, because Dark World's reflect the will & whatnot of their creator; Susie knew the Darkner well, but never met the living Lightner, having known him by proxy at best.

So indeed, as Ralsei said, to get a Darkner patterned after the memory of a specific individual -Or at least, after the memory of a loved one- requires exacting circumstances, because Susie made hers at the same location as the one where she JUST MET & strongly bonded with the Darkner patterned after a Lightner, with near identical Light World circumstances, & again, having an object significant to him, his dust, his hammer, & a photo of him all in a glass case, not to mention his son's office nearby & books written by him in the same room.

& when Susie tried, for all her efforts & despite those super-indicative circumstances, all she got was the animation of a Dark World exclusive statue, which recognized her bond & used it to deceive & attack her.

The “specific darkness” part intrigues me. Is that referring to actually a unique kind of darkness different from typical Dark Worlds, or just referring to all Lightners having different Dark Worlds even when made in the same place? I assume the latter, but either way that gives some interesting implications about the Knight.

 

[Imaginym]

The “specific darkness” part intrigues me. Is that referring to actually a unique kind of darkness different from typical Dark Worlds, or just referring to all Lightners having different Dark Worlds even when made in the same place? I assume the latter, but either way that gives some interesting implications about the Knight.

It is curious.

The Knight was where Card Kingdom & Cyber World showed up, though, among other things Tenna indicating that objects can recall events that occurred without a Dark World present brings how present in each The Knight was into question:

Spoiler: Rambling about The Knight in Chapter 1

Among other details, when spoken to after Chapter 3, King reveals that he never met The Knight & learned of it through Jevil.:

WHAT!? YOU met THE KNIGHT?
... Aheh. A rare show of mercy, I suppose.
With their full strength, you'd be SPLATTERED!! Hahaha!!
...
... What... were they like? - King, "Talk about the knight," Chapter 4

It was he, the clown, that told me the Knight's brilliance...
About the fountains' glory, and how I would rise to power.
Funny little man. How his jokes and dances made us chuckle.
A shame he had to be tricked away, by his closest companion.
The magician, Seam, whose smile has gone empty since that day. - King, "Jester," Chapter 4

There's also Seam's dialogue:

• Historically, this land was ruled by the Four Kings, from CARD CASTLE to the East.
• But, recently, a strange knight appeared... And three of the kings were locked away.
• The remaining king put him and his strange son into power.
• This land hasn't seen THIS much chaos since...
• Ha ha ha... Well, you don't need to know about THAT.

& The Three Kings say:

* Woe! Oh, Woe!

• We are the three Former Kings!
• We beg you, free us!
• Once, all four of us ruled together, but when the Knight arrived, everything changed...

Strangely, King never met The Knight, but seemingly, Jevil did. I'm uncertain if that has to do with why Jevil was locked away. Could The Knight be the strange someone Jevil met which Seam speaks of in other dialogue?

Perhaps the more relevant part is the 3 kings were locked away, apparently, after the Knight appeared. Yet either The Knight showed up in the Card Kingdom & locked up 3 of the 4 kings without ever meeting the Spade King... or it entered the Light World location for the Card Kingdom, & threw some of the Kings into the cupboard or something. But doing this undetected seems difficult, if other objects can observe & recall Lightners acting in their vicinity in the Light World while no Dark World is present.

It makes me wonder just how present The Knight was in the Card Kingdom. At least enough for it to contact Jevil & facilitate the royal overthrowing.
That King mentions "It was he, the clown, that told me the Knight's brilliance...About the fountains' glory, and how I would rise to power.", is intriguing; Brilliance can be of mental traits or luminosity. Either King thought The Knight was glowing/shining based on Jevil's description, or he thought it was very intelligent or something. We have seen The Knight make afterimages, & it can glow... when it's preparing its ultimate attack.

But the only certain vocalizations/sounds The Knight does are:

1. Roaring.
2. Its hurt sound, which is only produced when it takes 100 or more damage, often obfuscated by Rude Buster SFX, & could be indicative of the deforming it ALSO only does when taking 100 or more damge; Its shape resembles a soundwave or clamshell at these times. The visual deforming could just be for animation; To smear the shape to make it look like it's deforming with fewer drawn frames. (The Knight also seems to do the obligatory shaking when it gets hit at all, 100 or more damage or not.)
3. Laughing, which sounds like the laugh FRIEND does.

It does also have pulse sounds (When it emits its purple beams.) & MAYBE there's meaning to the static-like, patterned SFX it does in the cutscene when its "beaten". (Which is odd. Either faking being in worse condition than it is for some reason, maybe to deceive The Delta Warriors or actually being in bad shape. Either way, it only needs to lose 20%, a FIFTH of its max HP for this. Maybe HP isn't equivalent to Stamina, but its behaviour evokes difficulty maintaining its form or even existence, IMHO. Why act like that at around 80%?)

Point is, WHAT THE HECK WAS JEVIL TALKING ABOUT?!

The Knight is only brilliant in luminosity if you consider constant afterimages light, which is... technically true. (& even more ambiguous with Dark Worlds & their supposed negative light.) & somehow I doubt it needed to ult against King, even against Jevil, I'd be skeptic, even if The Knight does seem to somehow have problems with depleting more than 20% of its stamina.
& assessing it as brilliant mentally.... Well, maybe it somehow gave strategic or tactical assistance in overthrowing the 3 kings? An indirect approach sort of aligns with how we've seen it be avoidant in Chapters 3 & 4. But The Knight so far seems utterly nonverbal, monstrous & sometimes, even dare I say, feral. A side of that that Jevil would recollect & King would find mentally "brilliant" does not seem like a side we've seen so far, unless delusions/insanity of Jevil &/or King are affecting their presentation/interpretation of The Knight.

Queen managed to record The Knight making a fountain, but beyond that little is known about it in Chapter 2 besides this:
1. Queen knew it was called The Roaring Knight somehow, but not about The Roaring; Did The Knight introduce itself or something?
2. Spamton has some infamous dialogue about The Knight:
SPEAKING OF [[Communion]]
KRIS, DID YOU KNOW THAT THE KNIGHT...
No, I'm sorry! I'm sorry! I didn't mean to --
TOO MANY EXCESS VACATION DAYS?? TAKE A GOD DAMN VACATION STRAIGHT TO HELL - Spamton, Chapter 2

With Chapter 3 & 4, & in retrospect, Undertale available, the dialogue's meaning seems less ambiguous. This is from Burgerpants in Undertale:

• [Threaten]
  • Sorry, little weirdo. Threats won't work on me.
  • I can't go to hell. I'm all out of vacation days.

This would suggest Spamton's dialogue about The Knight parallels threatening Burgerpants, of all things: When Spamton brings up The Knight after saying "SPEAKING OF [[Communion]]", Kris ostensibly threatens Spamton, briefly scaring him, before he recomposes, recontextualizes yet more dialogue & retorts, perhaps as if showing though he was momentarily scared, Spamton quickly assessed (Correctly or not.) that he shouldn't be scared of threats from Kris. Considering he intended to upgrade himself, defeat Kris, steal the SOUL from Kris, maybe seize the Dark Fountain, as well as conquer Cyber World, I could believe Spamton quickly regaining his bluster.

But then what is "Communion" about? The Knight isn't Kris who has the SOUL, be it angelic or not.
Among other similar definitions:
"The sharing or exchanging of intimate thoughts and feelings, especially when the exchange is on a mental or spiritual level."
Maybe it was meant to foreshadow The Knight making a Dark World at the church??


The Knight showed up in Kris's Dark Fountain, The TV World, but IIRC, Kris left their house door open.
The Knight showed up in the first Dark Sanctuary, seemingly located in the lobby, a fountain The Knight presumably made.
But The Knight did NOT show up in the 2nd Sanctuary. Even though both it AND the first Dark Sanctuary were in the church's lobby.
& then The Knight DID show up in the 3rd Sanctuary.

So yeah, I spent longer typing about this than expected, but for some reason, The Knight did not show up in the 2nd Sanctuary.... The Dark World made in the same Light World location that it previously showed up in.
Could it have something to do with The 2nd Sanctuary being made by Susie, unlike the first Dark Sanctuary & the 3rd Sanctuary?

Spoiler: Yammering about The Knight's behaviour in Chapter 4

....Then again, The Knight seemingly, seeing Kris, Susie & Ralsei show up, immediately fled through the first Dark Sanctuary into the "3rd Sanctuary" behind the Church hall's locked doors.
It seems oddly averse to them, even if they don't beat it in Chapter 3, despite its apparent displays of confidence & not even reacting beyond minimal shaking per hit unless it takes enough damage; The only time it fought The Delta Warriors -The shelter doors having The Delta Rune, a police badge & a pine tree come to mind- was when it wanted to take Toriel & after dodging her attacks, it readily took Undyne as a substitute, suggesting it needs either of them, or both & when it gets which isn't important.

What was The Knight doing dawdling about in the church's Dark World?
It is overwhelmingly strong, yet seems averse to fighting... unless it needs something.
It seems willing to taunt, delay or distract The Delta Warriors.
It begs the question of why it made another Dark World in the church. We don't know the order, but it had all the time in the world to spam making them. & whether it making a Titan was done through 1 extra, 5 extra or just a Dark World within a Dark World, it had a lot of time after fleeing The Delta Warriors to spam more.
So unless it was Plot-Induced Stupidity, it suggests The Knight was waiting for them.

But then, it fleeing & taunting them.... Did The Knight exit the first Dark Sanctuary so it could take a break in the Light World &/or hide??
The church was a mess, but Dark Worlds, especially if they're illusions, can result in messing up Light World stuff. Unused classroom was a mess (Unless it was like that before.) & Tenna/the Dreemurr's TV got damaged.
So was the Church hall a mess because maybe the Dark World was made there AFTER The Knight fled The Delta Warriors, rather than as a result of The Titan & whatnot? Then again, what could have made The Knight make such a mess while specifically in The Light World? Kris seemed knowing & suspicious about the church hall's closet, but if Kris knew it was of importance, wouldn't their supposed ally The Knight know to check there first? Did 1 or both of them lack knowledge? Ex: Alvin moving something important?

Sorry for the long post, all.
Hopefully this isn't dull & is interesting, helpful &/or appreciable.

 

[Imaginym]

Oh & since I forgot it in my previous big post before posting it, here's a video where you can hear hear The Knight's hurt sound, which is produced when it takes 100 or more HP of damage from a single hit:

The Knight not only does the usual shaking from damage for this, but visually distorts, too, akin to what it does for its "defeat".

Intrigueingly, I've seen some say it's like Noelle's scream (or something) distorted.

 

[Qurbonboev]

The “specific darkness” part intrigues me. Is that referring to actually a unique kind of darkness different from typical Dark Worlds, or just referring to all Lightners having different Dark Worlds even when made in the same place? I assume the latter, but either way that gives some interesting implications about the Knight..

Most likely it's the letter. Gerson could have been teacher of Dess and Asriel. Knight(most likely Dess) would have had strong memories about him, that allowed him to be brought back

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Most likely it's the letter. Gerson could have been teacher of Dess and Asriel. Knight(most likely Dess) would have had strong memories about him, that allowed him to be brought back

That’s kinda what I was thinking. Not to mention if the Knight is the one that’s been giving away the Shadow Crystals, then that could imply that they intentionally revived Gerson specifically to give him a Shadow Crystal.

 

[LittleGuy99]

 

[Imaginym]

Kind of believable.

It could just be only because the devs wanted to show it's holding back, or game mechanics, but any other loss has the SOUL being broken. Heck, the Shadow Mantle Holder is special BECAUSE it winning its battle leads to the SOUL being broken, unlike other enemies in The Original Game.

Yet The Knight didn't break the SOUL.
One could argue that its weak, but when seeing it does less damage to Kris than Susie or Ralsei, it's obvious it holds back a lot.

Meanwhile, everyone does a fifth of their usual damage, at the start of the fight, with 1% more being added per turn for up to 15 turns to that initial 20%, so at the most, each of The Delta Warriors will be doing 35% maximum.

The Knight also does its "glitching" pseudo-freakout before it defeats everyone in that same cutscene; Either it has some issue with being unable to lose more than about 20% of its HP, or The Knight was putting on a show. Pretending.

Though FWIW, The Delta Warriors are also stronger after sealing the fountain (At least going by stats.), The Old Man is a challenge for Susie solo, & it seems believable a Titan would be stronger than The Knight, yet The Hammer of Justice can break the Titan's outer shell.

So there is a case for Hammer of Justice being stronger than The Knight.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Kind of believable.

It could just be only because the devs wanted to show it's holding back, or game mechanics, but any other loss has the SOUL being broken. Heck, the Shadow Mantle Holder is special BECAUSE it winning its battle leads to the SOUL being broken, unlike other enemies in The Original Game.

Yet The Knight didn't break the SOUL.
One could argue that its weak, but when seeing it does less damage to Kris than Susie or Ralsei, it's obvious it holds back a lot.

Meanwhile, everyone does a fifth of their usual damage, at the start of the fight, with 1% more being added per turn for up to 15 turns to that initial 20%, so at the most, each of The Delta Warriors will be doing 35% maximum.

The Knight also does its "glitching" pseudo-freakout before it defeats everyone in that same cutscene; Either it has some issue with being unable to lose more than about 20% of its HP, or The Knight was putting on a show. Pretending.

Though FWIW, The Delta Warriors are also stronger after sealing the fountain (At least going by stats.), The Old Man is a challenge for Susie solo, & it seems believable a Titan would be stronger than The Knight, yet The Hammer of Justice can break the Titan's outer shell.

So there is a case for Hammer of Justice being stronger than The Knight.

Tbh I think both the Knight and Gerson hold back so much that it’s hard to really say who’s the stronger of the two. The Knight having such high defence likely means they aren’t holding back their durability, but Gerson doesn’t get hit at all so that’s not a viable way to compare the two. Gerson is movement-wise the fastest character shown on-screen so far, but his actual attacks are held back to be a reasonable speed for Susie to dodge so it’s possible the Knight is doing something similar. Seam implies Gerson is too powerful for the Fun Gang to beat in a real fight, but Seam’s only comparing him to the Gang’s performance against a holding back Knight.

I’m not sure if even Gerson’s feat against the Titan is enough to say he’s stronger. The Knight seems to have some Titan/Dark Fountain related power source based on both their appearance and the background of their Hyper Goner-esque attack, so it’s entirely possible the Knight is Titan level or above in terms of stats (tbh they probably are in terms of strength and speed, if not for the Titan being so hard to kill they’re not that big of a threat to the Fun Gang).

 

[Imaginym]

Gerson is movement-wise the fastest character shown on-screen so far, but his actual attacks are held back to be a reasonable speed for Susie to dodge so it’s possible the Knight is doing something similar.

Skeptical The Knight is holding back in speed. We see that it doesn't break the SOUL, unlike regular enemies, & its patterns are unchanged with only Kris up, & it hits Susie & Ralsei quite hard.
Not to mention, this is the one time it fights directly, & it's when it wants to abduct Toriel. It's not clear why, but The Knight was late for some reason. Its greeting roars may also indicate it doesn't like dealing with them.

On future occasions, it's always attacking while flying away, or attacking while the party is in darkness, or siccing a Titan on The Delta Warriors.

Supposedly being late, fighting directly when it usually fights indirectly, &, especially given the flavour text, being merciless to everyone but Kris & the SOUL, I seriously doubt The Knight would willingly slow down their attacks. (Although, there is a part of me that can believe its future attacks will be faster, but it could also just get new ones.)

Seam implies Gerson is too powerful for the Fun Gang to beat in a real fight, but Seam’s only comparing him to the Gang’s performance against a holding back Knight.

For context:

• [After giving the first three Shadow Crystals; Permanently overrides regular dialogue]
  • It's strange. By all reasonable means, the strength of your next opponent...
  • Should be enough to already ring the bell on your defeat.
  • But, for some reason... I can't help but think you may win.
  • What is this feeling? ... Hope? Hahaha! Whatever it is, it's quite funny!

FWIW, I think this might be an attestation to Susie (& maybe the others.) defying fate, since that's a big thing with Gerson. Seam mentions feeling hope & being amused/confused by it.
But yes, Gerson's definitely holding back.

I’m not sure if even Gerson’s feat against the Titan is enough to say he’s stronger. The Knight seems to have some Titan/Dark Fountain related power source based on both their appearance and the background of their Hyper Goner-esque attack, so it’s entirely possible the Knight is Titan level or above in terms of stats (tbh they probably are in terms of strength and speed, if not for the Titan being so hard to kill they’re not that big of a threat to the Fun Gang).

Possibly, though AtM, it seems like we have little but speculation to go off of for where the Knight gets its power. For some reason, 2 of the Titans in 1 or both of the prophecy cutscenes resemble the form The Roaring Knight has.
IDK what you mean about The Knight's Hyper Goner-esque attack.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

IDK what you mean about The Knight's Hyper Goner-esque attack.

It’s final attack before the end of the fight, it’s kinda like Hyper Goner since they’re both full screen attacks that suck something in. The background of that attack shifts colours in the same way Dark Fountains do.

 

[Qurbonboev]

So there is a case for Hammer of Justice being stronger than The Knight.

Resurrection of Gerson in Dark World almost surely was coordinated with Knight, directly or indirectly. Knight is the one who left shadow crystal in his room. Knight knowledge about power levels of secret bosses should be at minimum at the level of Seam. If Gerson was truly on par with Knight, she wouldn't let him appear in Dark World. At very least she wouldn't left him shadow crystals that will make him more powerful and slowly drive him crazy, turning him into genuine risk to her and her plans.
But I think that Fun Gang + Gerson would have very good shot at beating Knight. Just replacement of Rude Busters with Dual Busters would totally flip power balance. This is my theory why Knight didn't try to fight us in chapter 4.
And Gerson didn't destroy outer Titan outer shield. His hammer throw left visible damage, but didn't left any meaningful structural damage. It's unlikely that he would be able to destroy it himself without Susie and Soul contribution. He doesn't have wincons against Titan, and eventually losses to it.

Why Knight attacks don't destroy Soul? There could be several good explanation;
1. Kris wouldn't be able to live without Soul for long. Suspiciously deer-shaped Knight probably wouldn't want this.
2. If we choose to give up on game over screen, World will be covered in darkness. Most likely without Soul there is no one to seal fountain, and Roaring would inevitably occurs. King didn't know about Roaring, once Queen heard about what Roaring entails she stops beefing with us, Jevil geniuly doesn't care. Roaring Knight definitely knows about (duh) Roaring, and probably doesn't want it to happen(at very least for now). So she doesn't kill only one capable of stopping it.
3. Knight knows about our SAVE abilities. She knows that if she breaks Soul, it will just load previous save again and again. Only way for her to achieve her goals is to incapitate Soul for some time, fulfill her objective, and then lure Soul into territory where this ability doesn't work anymore.
All three theories could work, but I love 3 much more. It turns Knight into smart and cunning antagonist that can counter our OP abilities(Sans could learn a lesson or two)

 

[RinneItachi]

Well that's true but also not that crazy, I mean the Titan would be the same without Gerson's help. Just being vastly stronger than the Fun Gang is all you need for that, cause what are they gonna do?

As a vessel, I think that Kris is just not as powerful as Frisk. Whether that's because of their physical strength or the difference in worlds between DR and UT, or because Frisk's "capacity" for our soul's power is greater, idk, but like it doesn't seem like Kris can get the same drastic boosts in strength as Frisk does, like when Frisk becomes powerful enough to keep up with a guy that is literally infinitely stronger than every other enemy in the game trying to actively kill them.

My headcanon is that it's because, while Kris doesn't proactively try to refuse our influence most of the time, I think that because Kris clearly doesn't like our meddling, they have a subconscious and instinctive resistance that prevents Kris from using the uppermost limits of our soul's power, which likely outclasses anything else in DR. Of course, there is a noteable plot point about how Fountain's are only made by someone who is determined, while this has staggering implications considering that Susie could make one despite being a Monster (of course this is another factor in the pre-established fact that Monster's have different physiology in DR, which, again, is then clashing with the fact that Monster's DO become dust still, evidenced by Gerson), it might also imply that if Kris made a Fountain with our Determination (something that Kris hasn't yet done), it might be different than the other Dark Fountain's, maybe bigger, maybe stronger Darkner's, who knows. Hell, if the theory that later in the story (maybe on the Weird Route) Kris entirely decides to kick us out of their body and we take over the vessel, we'll make a Dark Fountain ourselves. Oh man what if because of the power of our soul, the Dark Fountain is big enough to engulf the entire town. That'd be crazy.

And back to my original point, I think that while Kris might subconsciously resist us in some way, maybe the reason Frisk's power can vary so drastically with our soul and seems to always use it without issue, is because either Frisk DOESN'T dislike us or resist us (for unknown reasons), or maybe Frisk's will to resist itself is simply weaker than that of Kris, allowing us to take permanent and absolute control over them as our vessel. Not sure which headcanon I'd prefer.

 

[LittleGuy99]

 

[RinneItachi]

I'd rank the top 10 like this (based on characters we know exclusively):

0-Gaster; not actually part of the list but I wanted to put him here cause I'm pretty confident he'll be the strongest character by far.

1-Noelle; might not be the strongest right now but I'm also including her potential and I'm pretty confident she'll be insanely strong in the future, likely the key to some bigger plot based on some strong implications. She's the only character that can kill enemies in the Dark World, and while Snowgrave doesn't technically one-shot any enemy when using it through modification, I doubt that any character we know can tank it from a narrative standpoint. If we're going off of just feats and whatnot though I'd put her in like 3 or 4, maybe 5 even.

2-The Roaring Knight; portrayed as so far above the Fun Gang that fighting it is literally pointless because you can not win, no matter what. One-shots any CH3 Fun Gang members under normal circumstances, such to the extent that you need a full-revive item to revive Susie and Ralsei, if one-shotting them wasn't enough, reducing their HP to -999 is just crazy, and with normal, casual attacks at that. Even if we manage to survive for a bit and give the Knight trouble, the Knight then just proceeds to lock-in and one-shot us again regardless. The increase they got in CH4 isn't nearly enough to overcome such a gap. The Knight even thought that Susie's threats in CH4 were laughable, showing just how much of a gap there still is. T(hough if Gerson was fighting with the Fun Gang I think we'd win)

3-The Titan; portrayed as impossible to beat without Gerson's help, individually far stronger than any Fun Gang member. A full-scale roaring can supposedly destroy the Earth. Could be stronger than the Knight but narratively I believe the Knight is comfortably above the Titan we fight in CH4.

4-Gerson; broke the Titan's face shield and dealt massive damage casually, carries the Fun Gang even if we literally just start trolling the fight. Was an immensely difficult secret boss and clearly much stronger than Susie while holding back massively and fighting to teach Susie rather than win, can dodge attacks and very casually break game mechanics such as stealing our items, tanked Susie's Rude Buster which caught him off guard (which if we assume this is like Undertale, a Monster being off-guard massively lowers their defense, even Sans got caught the second he stopped expecting an attack), and heartily laughed it off afterwards, plus Gerson feints an attack that would be impossible to dodge if actually carried out. Frankly Gerson could be higher on this list, but obviously we just don't know how much of a beast he could really be.

5-Tenna; most likely superior to any Fun Gang member individually, however of course it's worth noting that the Fun Gang members are stronger in CH4, so we don't know how he would far against them by then. But I personally doubt they'd become strong enough that any of them could individually beat him.

6-Spamton NEO; effectively the same as Tenna though I'm a tiny bit more skeptical that the Fun Gang members haven't surpassed him...well, maybe not Ralsei but Kris and Susie. Especially Kris considering that Kris did hold their own against Spamton NEO on the Weird Route and has grown significantly stronger since then. So I'd say Spamton can be as low as 8.

7-Kris; interchangeable with Susie, Susie is generally portrayed with higher stats but from a narrative perspective I think it makes sense if Kris is marginally stronger. While I don't think that Kris is secretly some Dragon Ball character suppressed to 0.0001% of their base forms power with 5 multiplicative boosts (yatta yatta) I think it makes sense if Kris isn't going all-out in every fight. Furthermore Kris does have vastly increased damage against Tenna, plus Snowgrave Route Kris is passively growing alongside Noelle, increases in strength that Susie and Ralsei aren't getting. But frankly Kris is interchangeable with Susie on this list, not hard-placed in 7.

8-Susie; self-explanatory.

9-Jevil; though I see Jevil making a comeback in the far future, I personally think that the Fun Gang have grown enough that any one of them could beat Jevil solo or give him a very hard time in Ralsei's case. Bear in mind that Spamton NEO is at least on par with Jevil if not significantly stronger, yet Weird Route Kris could fight Spamton NEO to a standstill, and that version of SN is likely stronger than in the normal Chapter 2 gameplay, on top of that. The Fun Gang have had 2 chapters of growth since then. So I'm pretty confident Susie or Kris could beat Jevil on their own.

10-Ralsei; while gameplay sets Ralsei only a bit behind Kris and Susie in stats, narratively I think of him as being substantially weaker than them as he is obviously meant to be the "support" character of the group, the healer and such. I don't think he's weak, I still think he solos most of the normal game enemies and mini-bosses, even the King and Queen, however I can't see him soloing any of the secret bosses, though maybe he could take on Jevil. Again, pretty much interchangeable.

Honorable mentions; Undyne only appeared for like 2 seconds but she seemed to be able to stagger the Knight who immediately went for her instead of Toriel. This aside, I'd like to mention to ya'll that Undyne is Toby's bias character, Toby, LOVES, Undyne, and her archetype in his works is that of the "unwavering hero", sort of like All Might, she's always going to be a badass, and I imagine that if she appears again the Dark World, she'll be an absolute BEAST. Even though the Knight apparently intends to sacrifice her, I think Deltarune will take this a different way and that she won't just get jobbed (she wouldn't be given a Dark World exclusive design if she was just not gonna be important, Toriel didn't after all). She also straight up bench presses a CAR casually in the Light World which...doesn't need elaborating. I think she'd be 5 on this list in actuality.

 

[Imaginym]

2-The Roaring Knight; portrayed as so far above the Fun Gang that fighting it is literally pointless because you can not win, no matter what. One-shots any CH3 Fun Gang members under normal circumstances, such to the extent that you need a full-revive item to revive Susie and Ralsei, if one-shotting them wasn't enough, reducing their HP to -999 is just crazy, and with normal, casual attacks at that.

I'm not sure the "casual one shot" is entirely true. It's definitely possible to survive most attacks when DEFENDing, especially with good equipment, Shadow Mantle or not, & Susie, with good Equipment, can throw out a Rude Buster (Thus not having been DEFENDing.) & survive a hit from around full HP or slightly less, even from stuff like Tracking Swords or the fierce winds.

The -999 is also a bit suspect as evidence of stats, especially if it's possible to not get one-shot when UP; We see it get called SWOON when it occurs, as opposed to DOWN when a normal DOWNing happens; The different name suggests a different effect, & this is backed up by SWOON disabling passive healing/Regeneration that normally occurs while DOWN.

I definitely do think The Knight is superior. At the start, The Delta Warriors have their damage dealt reduced to 20%, & they regain 1% per turn (0.5% per turn on Rude Buster, IIRC.), for up to 15 turns, up to a maximum of 35%. So maybe they're just unnerved?
But ultimately, they only do 20% of its HP, Susie is in disbelief that they won before she gets arrogant, & evidently, even a casual Knight is holding back, considering that after it sees even its spectacular Hyper-Goner-esque charged up final move fail, it just takes them out in a cutscene, maybe while they're off-guard, maybe it's just hitting really hard.

& of course, there's the case that it was holding back less, or even not at all with the cutscene attack, because The Knight wouldn't have to worry about hitting Kris or the SOUL too hard that way.

It's also possible the one-shot threshold in Deltarune is very high.

The Knight even thought that Susie's threats in CH4 were laughable, showing just how much of a gap there still is. T(hough if Gerson was fighting with the Fun Gang I think we'd win)

Susie's threats were that it can't beat them in the Light World & they just have to get past it. Considering The Knight abducted Undyne through the Light World, is physically much more unlike a Lightner than Kris, Susie, Noelle & Berdly, suggesting it may be unlike Lightners & whatnot that they understand, & it had the option of just making a Titan there to impede them, I think it's reasonable to believe it was laughing because of those reasons.

Not to mention, it spends all of Chapter 4 attacking from a distance, while they're helpless climbing, or literally in the dark. Though I can believe this is just pragmatism, even if it isn't some sort of bizarre goading tactic or something. I don't believe The Delta Warriors are at all close to The Knight's equals, but if there's any risk, why take the chance?

5-Tenna; most likely superior to any Fun Gang member individually, however of course it's worth noting that the Fun Gang members are stronger in CH4, so we don't know how he would far against them by then. But I personally doubt they'd become strong enough that any of them could individually beat him.

It may be worth noting that Kris seems to normally be holding back against Tenna; They do about triple damage to him with ATTACKs after completing the Sword Route. A possible reason for this is The Sword Route is where Tenna blabs about a deal, collaborating with Kris & The Knight, & in doing so, informs the SOUL; Kris could be doing extra damage via Rage Power.
But I can believe Tenna being superior to each Delta Warrior individually, even if Kris is holding back.

6-Spamton NEO; effectively the same as Tenna though I'm a tiny bit more skeptical that the Fun Gang members haven't surpassed him...well, maybe not Ralsei but Kris and Susie. Especially Kris considering that Kris did hold their own against Spamton NEO on the Weird Route and has grown significantly stronger since then. So I'd say Spamton can be as low as 8.

FWIW, Weird Route Spamton NEO probably is one where Kris did get serious, just because they don't use X-Slash anywhere else & Spamton was not only obstructing the Fountain but after the SOUL, which Kris may seem bitter towards at times, but ironically enough, I'd say, also seems possessive of. Some think there's a correlation between X-Slash & the post-Knight SWOON slash, due to the SFX seemingly being speed-altered versions of the same sound, but I don't think that the SFX stuff is evidence we can officially use yet, even if there might be a case based on X-Slash.
But yes, Kris definitely couldn't get past the Blue Light Specil alone, & Spamton Neo being a superboss otherwise.

She also straight up bench presses a CAR casually in the Light World which...doesn't need elaborating. I think she'd be 5 on this list in actuality.

IIRC, it's a stack of cars.

Sorry for any bother with this long response of mine. Besides what I said, I don't think I have other issues to bring up about your rankings.

 

[Imaginym]