Minecraft discussion thread

[Lou_change]

If this isn't dead could someone help me repeat a creative mode test I did in Bedrock again in Java.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

If this isn't dead could someone help me repeat a creative mode test I did in Bedrock again in Java.

?

 

[Lou_change]

I was trying to double check whether or not creepers could actually deal 43 damage in game against an enderman (i.e oneshot the enderman which would alter some ratings) and it seemed to kill the enderman which surprised me because I thought it was impossible. Turns out my first test had the mob I used to aggro the creeper also hit the enderman with a ranged attack and weakened it enough the explosion killed it.

 

[IDK3465]

I was trying to double check whether or not creepers could actually deal 43 damage in game against an enderman (i.e oneshot the enderman which would alter some ratings) and it seemed to kill the enderman which surprised me because I thought it was impossible. Turns out my first test had the mob I used to aggro the creeper also hit the enderman with a ranged attack and weakened it enough the explosion killed it.

imo, I just don’t like scaling the Endermen to Creeper explosions anyway. Fully scaling something to an explosion that would otherwise one-shot them if they were a foot closer that leaves them at a mere percentage of their total health is just plain ridiculous.

In fact, using the formulas on the Minecraft wiki, I made a graph recently that compares the distance to an explosion and the damage it deals and, it turns out the distance it’d take for an Enderman to get one-shot is LESS THAN A CENTIMETER from the closest it could physically be to a Creeper (0.3 m)

 

[Lou_change]

I would prefer if it wasn't basically considered an ap feat there's no way I know of normally to get enderman to hurt each. Especially when ghast explosions which serves as the baseline for 8-C do more damage than them.

 

[Keeweed]

imo, I just don’t like scaling the Endermen to Creeper explosions anyway. Fully scaling something to an explosion that would otherwise one-shot them if they were a foot closer that leaves them at a mere percentage of their total health is just plain ridiculous.

In fact, using the formulas on the Minecraft wiki, I made a graph recently that compares the distance to an explosion and the damage it deals and, it turns out the distance it’d take for an Enderman to get one-shot is LESS THAN A CENTIMETER from the closest it could physically be to a Creeper (0.3 m)

But that means it would never actually get close enough in game to die from the creeper and the distance it is when it survives is literally touching it, just not its explosion hit box inside it.

 

[IDK3465]

But that means it would never actually get close enough in game to die from the creeper and the distance it is when it survives is literally touching it, just not its explosion hit box inside it.

Even still, directly scaling a character to something that leaves them at 1 HP is just simply ridiculous. At best the Endermen should be rated as “at most High 8-C” if not just removing any direct scaling outright. This isn’t even touching on the fact that in-game damage values don’t necessarily represent if a character scales to something or not. The Ender Dragon’s ramming attack only deals 10 HP, should we scale the player without any armor or anything to it? No, because the Ender Dragon is treated as being far above that level. You can’t just scale stuff willy nilly, you have to think “does this make sense from a lore perspective for it to be the case?”

 

[Keeweed]

How does any open ended games scaling work if what they can and can’t survive doesn’t count because damage numbers don’t mean any thing. Like I get the exact numbers are not accurate, but the Enderman survives this explosion, and that’s when we use him literally clipping into the creeper in a small box. Any other distance he lives easier. I think at most is much better.

 

[IDK3465]

How does any open ended games scaling work if what they can and can’t survive doesn’t count because damage numbers don’t mean any thing. Like I get the exact numbers are not accurate, but the Enderman survives this explosion, and that’s when we use him literally clipping into the creeper in a small box. Any other distance he lives easier. I think at most is much better.

Well, you can use context clues (i.e. ghast fireballs can’t destroy stone, where as basic wooden tools are intended to be capable of destroying it, which should put regular zombies around the ballpark of ghast fireballs) or you can use stuff from outside the main game (Mobestiary, Dungeons, Legends, arguably Story Mode) to get a much better idea of things

 

[Keeweed]

Is there anything in the mobestiary that put creeper’s above everyone outside of bosses. Because players in armor can survive and Enderman in that book are stated to threaten you at the end of the game.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Lowkey I've been looking at the lifting strength and I'm thinking it's in a need of a downgrade

 

[IDK3465]

Is there anything in the mobestiary that put creeper’s above everyone outside of bosses. Because players in armor can survive and Enderman in that book are stated to threaten you at the end of the game.

Well first off, I’m 90% sure in order to survive a creeper explosion point-blank, you need diamond armor, so that’s pretty much why only bosses scale higher. Second, Endermen are directly stated to only be 2x stronger and more durable than a zombie, so scaling them to creeper explosions would cause some scaling issues. And third, the only reason why Endermen are difficult to deal with when fighting the Ender Dragon is simply because of the shear quantity of them and the fact they can distract you when trying to fight it, not that they are at all comparable to an end game player.

 

[Keeweed]

It doesn’t say distract in the book, it says they can harm you. Also currently the Enderman is large building level and zombie building level so 2 times different won’t even be that big of a difference, especially since Enderman backscale from the feat already.

 

[Keeweed]

Lowkey I've been looking at the lifting strength and I'm thinking it's in a need of a downgrade

For what reason? It just scales to holding two things of gold blocks, why would the off hand not count?

 

[DavidTPPM]

For what reason? It just scales to holding two things of gold blocks, why would the off hand not count?

Because he's holding items gold blocks not blocks of gold blocks. Items are weightless

 

[Keeweed]

Is it stated anywhere they are weightless? Because like if we don’t even include him being able to hold a single block how does he do anything, the point of the game is to build. The rest of the inventory is fine to exclude because one of the books states he has canon hammer space, but we see him hold at least one block in his hands.

 

[Keeweed]

We are getting far too much into “literally everything is a gameplay mechanic” even down to what the characters hold and that’s silly.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Is it stated anywhere they are weightless?

It's shown in literally every area of the game.

• They float on water regardless of quantity or supposed mass
• They float above ground when dropped regardless of quantity or mass
• You sink equally fast and deep regardless of whether you're holding and wearing anything
• A falling item of anvil will never do damage regardless of height and quantity but a single anvil can easily kill you if it falls in its placed state
• The player doesn't slow down or hit harder when holding/wearing an item
• The player struggles to walk through the mass of gravel and sand (as well as through water, cobwebs, bushes, etc) which have MUCH lower mass than gold blocks

Meanwhile there is quite literally nothing implying they actually have mass equal to the blocks placed state.

Because like if we don’t even include him being able to hold a single block how does he do anything, the point of the game is to build.

I mean we can still easily determine he has athletic human LS just purely based on him actually being an athletic human. Or maybe higher based on him withstanding the mass of 2 m³ of gravel and even slowly walking out of it.

Yeah building is a big part of the game but so is the fact that breaking a blog turns it into a miniature floating version of itself.

We are getting far too much into “literally everything is a gameplay mechanic” even down to what the characters hold and that’s silly.

I would say the exact opposite. We're considering many gameplay mechanics as literal despite other gameplay mechanics contradicting them.

For example Steve scales above Silverfish which instantly destroy stone despite him not being able to do that himself. For some reason we consider Steve's inability to do so as a gameplay mechanic but not the Silverfish doing so.

 

[Keeweed]

Are we really getting to the point Steve will be inferior to freaking silverfish, really? He can kill them in less than a handful of hits, tank their attacks, and hurt himself more than they hurt him. It’s absolutely the case of dc vs ap.

For the things you listed with blocks tell me any game that ever keeps track of holding something means you should sink faster and most games won’t have you hit harder with them either. The point is we need he has to hold a single block, he builds stuff with them. Why would I assume they literally actually turn into these strange mini weightless versions (despite the fact they can active some pressure plates) instead of just the player is just allowed to actually hold a single item in his game.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Are we really getting to the point Steve will be inferior to freaking silverfish, really?

In terms of his ability to destroy blocks? Sure, I mean they even outperform him with mid-high level pickaxe sooooo....

He can kill them in less than a handful of hits, tank their attacks, and hurt himself more than they hurt him. It’s absolutely the case of dc vs ap.

See and how is THAT not just a game mechanic?
But him struggling to actually break stone like them even with equipment is?

Sounds like cherry picking to me ngl.

For the things you listed with blocks tell me any game that ever keeps track of holding something means you should sink faster and most games won’t have you hit harder with them either.

I mean, it's not unusual for games to have characters get slower when you pick up a heavier armor for example, and usually don't have items floating in water, but that doesn't matter. Other game characters usually get LS from actual cutscenes and story, not vaguely cherry picked game mechanics.

Either way this is whataboutism at best.

The point is we need he has to hold a single block, he builds stuff with them. Why would I assume they literally actually turn into these strange mini weightless versions instead of just the player is just allowed to actually hold a single item in his game.

Nobody is assuming that, this is what the game shows. The blocks in Steve's hand are still visibly MUCH MUCH smaller than they are when actually placed. So the only actual assumption here is you assuming they DON'T turn into these "strange mini weightless versions" despite the game blatantly showing them doing so.

(despite the fact they can active some pressure plates)

And that is somehow NOT just a game mechanic as well? Damn, sure I guess average Minecraft chickens have High 3-A durability because you could drop an infinite amount of gold blocks on their head at once without them taking a single damage.

We don't even need any calcs then either. Because Steve is heavy enough to destroy crops and turtle eggs with a jump but even the mass of an infinite amount of gold blocks can't do that.

 

[Keeweed]

“other games get it from their stories”
And that doesn’t apply here because Minecraft is one of the many many many games that is simple sandbox, like the entire genre. Why would I assume he can’t lift even a single component of the items he can get in game. How does he build anything if even just picking up an item is a gameplay. Not even the items or a collection of them, just holding a single one is apparently not really happening outside of game. In a building game. Gold is specifically one of the few blocks you are stated to gather due to trading with piglins, who can also hold the gold blocks.

The silverfish can dig their whole body into the block versus Steve punching or whacking away at the surface, they have a lot more surface area to work with. Plus Steve isn’t trying to destroy the blocks, he’s trying to mine them up to use, versus the silverfish obliterating the inside to live inside it.

 

[DavidTPPM]

“other games get it from their stories”
And that doesn’t apply here because Minecraft is one of the many many many games that is simple sandbox, like the entire genre.

Sucks for Steve. Doesn't mean we can just cherry pick what we consider as "just a game mechanic" and what game mechanics we use to scale.

Why would I assume he can’t lift even a single component of the items he can get in game.

Hmm let's see:

• He can barely move through the weight of a single m³ of sand
• He can barely walk through water
• He can't move a single placed block without breaking it first
• He can't even open a metal door
• The only actual lifting strength feat he has is lifting trap doors

Seems like a solid amount of solid reasons.

How does he build anything if even just picking up an item is a gameplay. Not even the items or a collection of them, just holding a single one is apparently not really happening outside of game. In a building game. Gold is specifically one of the few blocks you are stated to gather due to trading with piglins, who can also hold the gold blocks.

Given that even foxes can hold golden blocks, I'd say the difference between a held-form item and a placed-form item is canon to the game.
Something that's even further reinforced by the story mode games.

So of course he can pick up items - as long as they're in the correct form.

The silverfish can dig their whole body into the block versus Steve punching or whacking away at the surface, they have a lot more surface area to work with.

So? How does that change anything?
Also you can home a stone block and still break stone extremely slowly and if your idea about held stone being identical in properties to placed stone was true that would mean Steve holding a stone should have an even better surface area to work with.

Plus Steve isn’t trying to destroy the blocks, he’s trying to mine them up to use, versus the silverfish obliterating the inside to live inside it.

That's a weird headcanon. There are many situations where the player would prefer just breaking the blocks as fast as possible without mining it.

This is essentially canon given there are enchantments and potion effects specifically designed to enhance the speed of your mining…

 

[Keeweed]

The story mode games are a completely different continuum that deviates from base Minecraft all over the shop, also how would fox holding them mean they are weightless versus just the fox is strong enough to hold it. Especially since they can active pressure plats so the game says has them have weight.

The silverfish breaking the block isn’t head canon nor is Steve taking its hits, hitting it back, and being able to hurt themselves even more. It’s either the silverfish is the outlier or Steve’s mining is, but considering Steve can survive close enough to a creeper explosion to have cobblestone pulverize and can survive ghast explosions, I don’t see the silverfish being an outlier.

 

[Keeweed]

The player not the game nor in game character. The game is designed around gathering blocks to craft with them. Steve is trying to collect them from the games design.

 

[Keeweed]

What you are saying would be an anti feat even against fighting the ender dragon and wither. Since they can break blocks when Steve at that stage still can’t. Should Steve be 9-B even with equipment and literally not scale to any enemy in the game?

Also is Steve going to get any powers for turning blocks into weird weightless mini versions? Because you’re arguing that’s how he doesn’t actually lift them, so that means he actually has to be doing that. If he isn’t then how does he build anything when that’s the entire point of the game.

 

[DavidTPPM]

The story mode games are a completely different continuum that deviates from base Minecraft all over the shop,

It's still stated to follow the same general logic as base Minecraft so it should be a solid representation of "canon" Minecraft.

also how would fox holding them mean they are weightless versus just the fox is strong enough to hold it.

See what I mean by cherry picking what's a game mechanic and what isn't? You'd rather believe every random baby fox in Minecraft can casually lift like 20 tons and run around with it at full speed than to chuck it up to game mechanics. But Steve not instantly violently fragmenting blocks even with an enchanted pickaxe when he supposedly can with his bare hands? Naaaah THAT is just a game mechanic because it downgrades him.

Especially since they can active pressure plats so the game says has them have weight.

Yeah but an infinite amount of them have no destructive effect on anything so either it's a game mechanic or everything in the verse has high universal durability.

The silverfish breaking the block isn’t head canon nor is Steve taking its hits, hitting it back, and being able to hurt themselves even more. It’s either the silverfish is the outlier or Steve’s mining is,

Or, the Silverfish breaking blocks is just a game mechanic unique to it.

but considering Steve can survive close enough to a creeper explosion to have cobblestone pulverize and can survive ghast explosions, I don’t see the silverfish being an outlier.

But considering Steve can't even one punch your average farm animals (chickens, cows, sheep, dogs) or generally any irl animals like foxes, bears, bees, frogs, armadillos, parrots, etc, or generally any regular building blocks like stone, dirt cubes, wooden planks, wooden doors, wooden buttons, leaves, glass, clay, etc I don't find him scaling to building level ranges consistent at all. And that's a LOT more anti feats than feats which also impact the way you play and percieve the game a lot more than a creeper explosion.

What you are saying would be an anti feat even against fighting the ender dragon and wither. Since they can break blocks when Steve at that stage still can’t. Should Steve be 9-B even with equipment and literally not scale to any enemy in the game?

I mean I personally wouldn't mind, but the thing about armored Steve scaling is that he uses swords specifically to deal the damage. Swords maximize piercing damage which minimizes DC even irl + there are game mechanics specifically to make you want to use other tools to mine over sword (and the diamond sword equivalent for mining can basically 1-2 tap stone, depending on the enchantments) so for his weapons there are solid arguments.

Those arguments tho don't apply to his fists at all.

Also is Steve going to get any powers for turning blocks into weird weightless mini versions? Because you’re arguing that’s how he doesn’t actually lift them, so that means he actually has to be doing that. If he isn’t then how does he build anything when that’s the entire point of the game.

Why would that be Steve's ability? That's just how the world works. A creeper explosion, a TNT explosion, a ghast fireball, etc, all also make blocks into the floating mini versions.

So it's not a Steve ability but an aspect of the world he lives in.

 

[Lou_change]

It doesn’t say distract in the book, it says they can harm you. Also currently the Enderman is large building level and zombie building level so 2 times different won’t even be that big of a difference, especially since Enderman backscale from the feat already.

The only reason they scale is a durability feat instead of an ap feat at 7 points of damage they do less than ghasts (17 points), piglins with swords (8), vexes (9), vindicators (13), wither skeletons (8), zombified piglin with swords (8). Mobs doing 6 damage include blazes, guardians (who do to a single point of magic damage actually deal 7 damage), magma cubes, pandas, and polar bears.

 

[IDK3465]

It doesn’t say distract in the book, it says they can harm you. Also currently the Enderman is large building level and zombie building level so 2 times different won’t even be that big of a difference, especially since Enderman backscale from the feat already.

Well, I’d say that a mosquito can harm me and be pretty inconvenient to deal with, doesn’t mean they scale to me. Also, we currently have Zombies somewhat downscale from 0.3 tons, placing Endermen at 0.6, while according to you, Endermen greatly downscale, but are still supposedly on-par with 3.5 tons. That’s just a bit under a 5.83x difference compared to what they would at minimum be.
Idk, I just really don’t by scaling to something whatsoever that leaves you at 1 ******* HP is that reasonable

 

[Keeweed]

It’s only left at 1 hp when it’s literally in the creeper shoved into a box to take as much as the blast as possible. And even then it survives.

“Silverfish breaking blocks is just a game mechanic unique to it.”
What does that even mean. It’s designed to go into blocks and breaks them. That’s innately what it does as its strategy and purpose as a mob. In what universe is that a gameplay mechanic.

Again Netherite doesn’t instant break blocks without enchantments, so again that would be an anti feat against literally everything, especially since he only fragments parts of them to grab them rather than pulverizing them. Pickaxes are piercing damage. Plus Steve can hurt the bosses with a mace, a bludgeoning weapon.

 

[Lou_change]

It’s only left at 1 hp when it’s literally in the creeper shoved into a box to take as much as the blast as possible. And even then it survives.

You know how explosion calcs work right?

 

[Keeweed]

Yes it loses power over distance, but the Enderman can survive at any distances and survives reasonably still within range to scale heavily to the explosion is my point, ignoring that it’ll always live anyways even when face tanking it as hard as possible. No reason to throw the feat out entirely if a more accepted distance of survival is used (but I think it surviving should be enough and it be rated at most)

 

[IDK3465]

Yes it loses power over distance, but the Enderman can survive at any distances and survives reasonably still within range to scale heavily to the explosion is my point, ignoring that it’ll always live anyways even when face tanking it as hard as possible. No reason to throw the feat out entirely if a more accepted distance of survival is used (but I think it surviving should be enough and it be rated at most)

Know what, if we’re going there, screw it.

Going by what we currently use to downscale the dura of zombies and base Steve (ghast fireballs), the ratio for how much damage something can take for them to even remotely scale to whatever they survived is 15/20 or 3/4ths of their total health. And remember, they downscale from this, as the mobestiary directly states that it causes “extremely serious injury.” That means, the maximum an enderman can take before it stops scaling is 30 HP.

Using the chart I linked to earlier, that means the distance the enderman is at from the center of the blast is around 1.34 m, doing some math, that means the area of the explosion at which it reaches the enderman is 22.56 m^2. If we assume the frontal surface area of an enderman is approximately equal to the area of a regular human times the ratio in height [0.68 * (2.9/1.75) = 1.13], that means that endermen should scale to a 19.97th of the creeper explosion or around 0.18 tons of TNT

In short: just scale them to twice the strength of a zombie, makes things easier

 

[Keeweed]

But the exact damage and hp things have is a gameplay mechanic. The very same reason you don’t want Steve to scale to hurting enemies and himself with his fist. The point is any distance to the creeper is survivalible. The hp value you are saying counts is completely arbitrary

 

[IDK3465]

But the exact damage and hp things have is a gameplay mechanic. The very same reason you don’t want Steve to scale to hurting enemies and himself with his fist. The point is any distance to the creeper is survivalible. The hp value you are saying counts is completely arbitrary

The thing is, what you’re arguing for is entirely dependent on how much HP an enderman has and the damage a creeper can deal. There’s no direct statement saying endermen can survive such a thing, there’s no reason for us to assume they are in anyway comparable to one another, they can survive it simply because they can AND THATS IT.

Compare this to the fireball feat, it doesn’t scale to Steve because it’s survivable in-game, it’s because it makes sense given what else we know:

• Fireballs can’t break through large amounts of stone, Steve needs tools to break through stone
• Fireballs are stated to be dangerous, but not lethal

It makes sense in more ways than just “he can survive it in-game” THAT’S why it is a legit feat.

So, it’s either a) the feat doesn’t scale because it relies solely on in-game stats rather than evidence from other sources, or b) the feat is legit, but due to in-game stats, it doesn’t upgrade them at all

Unless you provide some other evidence here, the feat just doesn’t seem to actually work out

 

[Lilybitdun]

Hey has the fact that The Island novel is non-canon been added yet?

 

[IDK3465]

Hey has the fact that The Island novel is non-canon been added yet?

I’m currently working on revising the verse in general, which would include canon, and yes, the novels (with the exception of Rise of the Archillager) are going to be non-canon

 

[Lou_change]

I been working some what on a p&a revision with two or three tier related adjustments.
Evoker's tier becomes unknown due to magic at least partially negating durability and Vexes being a different profile.

Iron Golem gets a varies rating for ap they are implied to lose fights with groups of zombies and illagers and as acknowledged in the Mobestiary they deal a highly variable amount of damage.

Warden has some justifications I don't like for several reasons including being "near impossible to kill" isn't an ap feat, they can't hit through the player's shield they can only disable it and even then so can most mobs with an axe even if they are are much weaker, also if the explosion did 55 damage (which is more than 10 less than the supposed max damage) it does about 1/6 of the shield's durability which doesn't sound like no-selling, while it can kill several iron golems it doesn't kill multiple at once it just kill them one at a time and it's not a one shot or anything.

 

[Lilybitdun]

and as acknowledged in the Mobestiary they deal a highly variable amount of damage.

the Mobestiary isn't canon so that wouldn't be usable for supporting evidence

 

[Lilybitdun]

Plus I don't think it's enough justification for Varies tier anyways

“Varies” ratings should only be given to characters who have a canon explanation for why their statistics fluctuate. This does not include characters who are simply inconsistent or have unexplainable variations in their displayed power level. The fluctuations in power must have a clear and logical basis within the character's respective canon.

 

[IDK3465]

the Mobestiary isn't canon so that wouldn't be usable for supporting evidence

No, it’s still canon. When asked about its canonicity, all the author said was that some of the content in the book is intended to just be theories, but given how the Naturalist (the in-universe character the book is from the perspective of) is still stated to be a mob expert and has a lot of experience collecting information about them, this is likely just referring to things like chickens being spies and other more clearly ambiguous/jokey stuff rather than information that is more intended to be taken seriously.