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I am not in a rush, we are still on grace period anyway, we couldn't close it even if I wanted. Don't go around making assumptions and poisoning the well.
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Deactivating Anti-Hypertime annihilation mechanism limiter... | Sonic Cosmology Downgrade Part ?: Hypertimelines
- Thread starter Telomera
- Start date
- Status
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And it's up to neither of you to decide either. Just message DDM and tell him to voice his stance here, how hard could that be?
@DarkDragonMedeus
@DarkDragonMedeus
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If this is at the point time doesn’t exist, then he innately would be moving outside of time as the location is stated in that scan to be outside of time. Meaning he doesn’t need time travel to get there, he already has the ability to travel through nonexistent. He can do both, he can time travel, and he can move through nonexistence. And if everything is already destroyed then crisis city won’t be existing at that moment meaning he didn’t restore it, it’s just already in white space.
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Well he did? He explicitly said he was mostly neutral but on leaning side of disagreeal. Which isn't a vote for disagreeing.
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No, because again, Iblis is there, when he really shouldn’t be because Blaze had already sealed him within her, unless they managed to pull an earlier version of the crisis timeline despite it being erased after Blaze sealed herself away.
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Why would I assume he restored the timeline, to eat the timeline, rather than just having access to the nonexistent place as he lives in nonexistent already and crisis city is treated the same as everything else in that white void which as stated by that scan don’t exist at the moment.
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Except, again, this Crisis City is from 06. It's not the one after it stopped existing at the end of the game because Iblis is there. Blaze seals Iblis inside herself at the end of that game:
Time Eater would NEED to travel back in time to a previous snapshot to get a Crisis City that still has Iblis in it.
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But he won’t need to restore that moment, it would just be in white space with the rest of its deleted parts, because all of time and space are gone at that moment anyways. Meaning all it’s future and past would already be there.
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It wouldn't be, because the Crisis City that would be in there is a post 06, one WITHOUT Iblis.
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In my view there's two major justifications for a hypertimeline:
- Solaris coming back with time travel
- The End of Time
- Sonic/Shadow Generations establishes its an echo, which defeats it being a snap shots in time
- The End of Time still being damage from the Time Eater's powers
The second is more complex, since the End of Time is still composed of time ans existed after everything was erased. But that only really means something for tiering if the occupy the same exact space-time continuum. I think its valid supporting evidence but I'm not entirely sure if its good enough on its own.
I guess ultimately speaking the arguments presented for Solaris by the OP are good, but the stuff regarding the Time Eater sounds better by the opposition.
I still lean towards agreeing, but I guess I'm just in the opposite neutral camp of DDM. I certainly think can argument can be made either way.
So agreeing but not by a lot I guess is my final answer.
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Do you think the thread should be closed?
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Except In order to go to that time, he would need to use a hypertimeline to do so. You're getting the point, you need a higher dimension of time to access snapshots like that.
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For Mephiles at best. You still haven't replied to the Crisis City point. What do you think of it?
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Yeah but the timeline was erased, so TE still had to roll back to a previous version of the timeline that had Iblis. And as established, different points in time class as separate timelines, so even if TE just traveled back into time, he still would be rolling back to a previous version of the timeline rather than just standard time travel.
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If the thread gets a bit more out of control without enough decisive votes, should the OP create a staff thread with the new points brought up to make it more cohesive rather than spread out across many pages and main opposition allowed to comment?
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why would you when it is a nonexistent place in nonexistence. Would it not just be like a tree with branches. One branch gets erased, then the entire tree gets erased. Both would just end up at the same nonexistent spot.
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Ammm, Solaris isn't in generations, I think you mean Crisis city?
It's an echo that wasn't done via time travel and our other point is the two statements of the singular time dimension.
He made that guess based on his studies anyways, espacially the whole deal of his many dialogues is elaborate stuff for the players. (He tells you alot about time stuff and chaos emeralds powers)
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Do you think we should make another thread? 14 pages and we're still going back and forth.
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I was taking the entire thing as a echo. If its just an echo, which is a resemblance/leftover of the original, it can include things like Iblis without it being a contradiction in my view.
No, its gone on long enough for a definitive vote. Its currently 0-2-2 and should be finished.
I would ask for people to stop commenting however.
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Nope, because it would need to travel to the tree after one branch was cut, but before it was wholly erased.
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What makes Gerald a more informed source than Tails though?
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But it isn't, really. Gerald says only Mephiles was the echo:
This is show by the fact Mephiles remembers being defeated as Solaris.
Crisis City can't be an echo because Iblis was gone when the timeline ended:
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Tails didn't say anything about Crisis city, he doesn't remember 06 and it was there before he even came to white space.
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So was Mephiles, and yet the statement was made in the knowledge of him.
I don't understand how Iblis was gone proves anything, Iblis was a part of that timeline and he exsited in it.
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Yes but it doesn’t change how these “echoes” mean that previous versions of erased timelines exist in the Sonic multiverse, ergo still following hypertime
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Solaris as in his two components of edgier Shadow and Iblis. While Solaris doesn't show up his two halves were still erased.
If Shadow's echo was Mephiles why wouldn't Sonic's echo because Iblis?
Also I'd ask again to stop commenting. Wait for other moderators to respond.
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Previous versions of the timeline being non-existent isn't an evidence of a hypertimeline, I'm sure that's just a standard thing, hypertimeline requires time traveling and other shit.
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Okay, I kinda want to comment on this stuff but however.
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And Time Eater’s whole thing is time traveling yes.
ShakeResounding
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I'm not making a new argument, but since DDM seems to value your input, I think it would help DDM if you were to clarify why you lean towards agreeing despite time not quite being "linear" in this case. That specifically seems to have been what made him unsure
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I'm not going to repeat myself since I covered this in many of my comments, nice try with stonewalling tho.
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Because the "Iblis" that would've been an echo would need to be the Iblis that became Solaris, not Crisis City Iblis.
There's two Iblis's in the story, and if Mephiles is an echo, than THIS Iblis needs to be the one echoed, not Crisis City Iblis.
Understood, I just want to make this point clearer, because I don't think you knew all these details.
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Plus.... Eggman wanting to undo his previous defeats must include other timelines, he goes to other dimensions, Universes, etc multiple times in past times and loses
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Sure I guess.
I don't think it's particularly necessary for me to expound any further on why Sonic Prime and Sonic '06 are bad examples since it seems to be mostly accepted that they're not sufficient proof, so I'll argue against using Crisis City as proof and also bring up counterevidence against the existence of a hypertimeline in Sonic as a whole. Refer to the OP if you want to read more about that.
I'd like to emphasize the fact that for there to be proof of a hypertimeline, there has to be proof of nothing less than a higher dimension of time where there is at the very least an uncountably infinite amount of snapshots with entire timeline(s) in each snapshot. The opposition is trying to prove the existence of this higher dimension of time by claiming that the Time Eater supposedly used time travel to restore Crisis City. Keep in mind that with this particular method of argumentation, it is absolutely necessary that they prove that "time travel" is used to directly travel to another version or "snapshot" of an entire timeline (it is so necessary in fact that it is described as "the keyword" in this case). Note that it's not just time travel causing changes in timelines which may then be accessed afterwards (which doesn't require a hypertimeline), but time travel has to be able to directly access these different versions or "snapshots" of entire timeline(s). Without this, they are left with no argument that the development of the timelines between these versions/snapshots is a "time-like" development along a higher flow of time. Without this, their entire argument falls apart. The issue with the opposition's argument is that they have no proof that anyone ever used "time travel" to access a past version of a timeline.
First of all, it's never established that any sort of "time travel" caused the restoration of Crisis City. The opposition has tried their best to prove that the Time Eater directly and intentionally caused the restoration of Crisis City, and while I'm not conceding anything, I want to point out that they have never provided any proof that "time travel" was used by Eggman/Time Eater to directly access pre-erasure Crisis City. Without this, they have no method of claiming that the development of timelines is time-like. They do seem to argue that it's because Time Eater makes heavy use of time manipulation, but it's stupid to pick and choose whatever thing you want that Time Eater did and claim that it was done through time travel just because Time Eater uses a lot of time manipulation powers. You cannot say that a certain thing done by Time Eater was done through time travel unless it is specifically stated; otherwise, you would be committing the association fallacy
Secondly, in Shadow Generations, Gerald Robotnik responds to Shadow asking him about Mephiles by explaining that as a result of the timestream being tampered with, echoes from the past are being stirred up, which explains why Mephiles (someone who Shadow has no knowledge of since Mephiles's timeline was erased at the end of Sonic '06) is there. (there is a past because the timestream was healing itself along with Sonic and Shadow helping restore it btw) This means that instead of being a past snapshot that Time Eater traveled to via time travel, Mephiles and Crisis City are just echoes of an erased timeline that were stirred up by the Time Eater's meddling with the timestream. It's not an entirely different snapshot of a timeline, but just "resemblances/leftovers" of an erased timeline as Qawsedf put it. This was an educated guess on Gerald's part, but it makes a lot more sense than Eggman randomly stopping his rampage across time and reaching back in hypertime to restore a timeline he didn't even remember (Gerald actually said his theory was correct but I'm not 100% sure if this also refers to him talking about the echoes)
Now, I will respond to some counterarguments. Theuser789 claimed that this contradicts the fact that Time Eater made a portal to the erased Crisis City before destroying spacetime. But not only is this not confirmed to be an instance of "time travel" (which is absolutely necessary for a hypertimeline argument since there has to not just be an arrangement of snapshots, but a time-like arrangement of uncountably infinite snapshots), it fails to account for the fact that the Time Eater had already been destroying spacetime even before it opened the portal to Crisis City in modern Sonic's timeline. That means that the "damage done to the time stream" that had been "stirring up" the echoes of Crisis City and Mephiles had already taken place by the time the portal was opened up. There was no need for Time Eater to reach back into some sort of hypertimeline to get those echoes because those echoes were already there (which would also explain the presence of Iblis since all versions of Iblis were parts of the '06 timeline). This order of events is made quite clear in the cutscene, and it makes no sense to deny it.
Theuser789 also argues that Crisis City coming up in Eggman's flashback proves that Eggman must have gone back in hypertime to pull Crisis City out of nonexistence, but this a huge stretch. All that this appearance means is that the presence of Crisis City was one of the consequences of Eggman's plan, specifically due to being "stirred up" as a side effect of his tampering with the time stream. There's nothing more to it than that, and anything more is headcanon and a non sequitur.
Now considering all this, the opposition has no way to justify their claims of the existence of a hypertimeline, which should be enough to remove this scaling. But that's not all. There's actually counterevidence that actually goes against the idea of there being a hypertimeline in Sonic at all.
The fact that only echoes are left of Mephiles's timeline being erased contradicts the claim of a hypertimeline, because if there was a hypertimeline, the erasure of Mephiles's timeline would be nothing more than a movement from one snapshot to another. Mephiles's timeline would still exist in its entirety as a past snapshot. The fact that only echoes are left of Mephiles's timeline contradicts this. This is further supported by the fact that Gerald confirms that if Shadow were to change his past, it would also rewrite his future and that all the things he did in the timeline originally would cease to be, which is absolutely not how a hypertimeline works. In a hypertimeline, past versions of a timeline continue to exist. On the contrary, Gerald confirms that they cease to exist. This actually does happen to be relevant to the Crisis City issue too though because, since old versions of timelines cease to exist when a timeline undergoes change, Eggman wouldn't be able to reach into the "hyperpast" and pull Crisis City out since it would've disappeared already. That's yet another reason why Gerald's explanation with the "echoes" makes much more sense than any of this hypertimeline stuff.
Also, it's outright confirmed both here and here that there is just a singular dimension of time, that time is only one dimension.
In all, not only is there no proof of a hypertimeline, there's actually counterevidence that disproves the existence of a hypertimeline in the game Sonic verse.
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- Thread starter
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That makes no difference. Gerald talked about "echoes of past alterations" in general being stirred up, not just "echoes of this particular version of this particular character." Crisis City Iblis was also erased by a time alteration, so it could also be echoed. You're just trying to draw contradictions where there are none.
Now, I'll wait and see what the staff say.
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Gerald's comment has nothing to do with his echo theory. He was referring to his theory that time can "heal itself". It's really blatant if you simply go back to your link only for five seconds, too. I might make a larger post later, but this part really got to me because it's just objectively and blatantly wrong.
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You and Shake should prolly just make an overall summary.
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