Deactivating Anti-Hypertime annihilation mechanism limiter... | Sonic Cosmology Downgrade Part ?: Hypertimelines

[JJSliderman]

I'm not seeing this in the Tiering System FAQ, but more importantly, none of this actually proves the existence of an extra temporal dimension that contains an uncountably infinite amount of "snapshots," which is necessary for the higher tiering (except for the part about operating on an extratemporal axis, which is not proven in Sonic).

I never claimed that "Sonic doesn't qualify because he doesn't 'hyperjump' between snapshots," it was that Sonic doesn't use "time travel" between hypersnapshots. The reason for this is that the usage of "time travel" is the sole method by which Shake's blog uses to prove that there is a "time-like" progression between events, and without it, shake has no reason to call this progression "time-like." The issue with using either of these scenarios as proof of a hypertimeline is that neither of them demonstrate a continuous, time-like progression of "hypersnapshots." Sonic simply travels from one hypersnapshot to another, which is only proof of a tiny amount of "snapshots" in comparison to the uncountably infinite amount necessary for the 6D tiering that we're giving Sonic. The tiering System actually addresses this, explaining that cases in which entire timelines undergo change may still only involve a finite number of timelines.

You could potentially argue that there is a "hypertimeline" in some sense but is not applicable for tiering, but the standard for a hypertimeline that grants higher tiering is much more strict. To justify higher tiering, this hypertimeline must not just be a set that contains timelines, but must contain an uncountably infinite number of them. "{t0, t1, ... tn} is only countably infinite. None of your examples prove this

Reminds me maybe I’ll look at how Dragon Ball handled it later ig. Not related to this thread just a personal thing.

 

[Starsprite53]

so I don't appreciate the sarcasm nor bundling everybody into a neat little package for you to target.

This is not sarcasm, this is a genuine question, and it's for user who also has the same kind of attitude.
And put yourself in my place, using the exact same sources another party does, that were accepted when they used them, but when YOU bring them up, one from that party suddenly says they're 'invalid',what would your reaction be? Be honest.

 

[JJSliderman]

I do agree that Prima guides should be axed but I’ll talk about that in a more relevant thread.

 

[Telomera]

If Sonic declares "Time travel!", then I'm going to actually listen to what's said and inferred in the game.

...

So instead of believing a character that actually lived through the experience, I should just listen to your interpretation.

Sonic never said that time travel was what restored the timelines. That is just your headcanon. Literally all he said was "Still warm. Time travel!" The only reasonable way conclusion we can draw from Sonic saying that, given the immediate context, was that time travel helped him go through an entire adventure and still eat his chili dog while it's warm.

Secondly: You shift and start making a false claim that the interpretation listed is that Time Travel itself should always heal the timeline. But that is just not at all true, nor accurate.

The argument is that time travel was used after Solaris was blown out of existence to undo any effects either Mephiles or Iblis had on Sonic's timeline. Evidenced by Princess Elise and the entire ending of her forgetting Sonic.

There is no evidence that time travel was used in that scenario either. You can claim that it was "evidenced by Elise's ending" all you want, but you still haven't demonstrated that time travel was the cause of those effects being undone. It helped them undo those effects, but the actual cause of those effects being undone was them blowing out Solaris, not them using time travel. Anything more is unproven headcanon that you'd need to cite sources to support

The ending of the show and the reversal of the Shatterverse's existence is a plain by the ending, as none of Sonic's friends seem to be too mad about Sonic destroying reality. Waving your hand and saying "It was magic" is unironically worse.

None of that addresses the issue that there is no proof that there is a time-like progression between the universe being shattered and the reversal of that. You don't even have any statements of time travel involved here.

I disagree with OP for the reasons in this post, and to add up:

Classic Sonic and Tails literally do time travel to their time to fix everything, even the Tails dialogue you linked says they need to go back to their time to restore their timeline:

Again, there's another false cause fallacy. They needed to go back to their time to restore their timeline, but that doesn't mean that it was time travel that actually restored their timeline.

 

[Starsprite53]

Yeah but his impact on the timestream still remained, it didn’t go away with his defeat in the boss fight.

Idk man, after Solaris gets defeated we see those light rays bursting out, then everything gets engulfed in white, then this scene, and let's not ignore the direct statement about time being reset. You really gonna pretend there is nothing SUS?

 

[JJSliderman]

The thing with Solaris is that time travel was used to get to his base flame form to begin with after his defeat, which shouldn’t be possible with a linear time approach because Solaris had destroyed and erased “all of space time” at that point.

 

[Telomera]

When we talked about this last time, this was the major point of evidence. Sonic 06 was erased from the timeline and doesn't exist, but was still able to be recalled by the Time Eater. Being able to travel to non-existent timeline implies a secondary snapshot of the multiverse which supports a hypertimeline.

The Sonic Prime and Generation stuff was never good enough on their own without the Spnic 06 stuff.

Having a higher time axis is still a hyper timeline. As you're have an infinite snapshot of infinite snapshots. The FAQ talks about it with different snapshots of the multiverse being traveled to or recalled.

At best we only have proof of multiple different "hypersnapshots," but that isn't anywhere near the uncountably infinite time-like progression of snapshots that are necessary for higher tiering. The Tiering System, in the same passage I cited, talks of how it's insufficient to simply cite a scenario where there are multiple snapshots of entire timelines in different states after being rewritten; in fact, there must be an uncountably infinite time-like series of snapshots. Sonic '06 being erased and coming back only comprises two snapshots (or three if you count its existence before being erased)

 

[Starsprite53]

destroyed and erased “all of space time” at that point.

He haven't yet, all he did was merging all points of time into one point in Sonic's universe (Please don't take this in the wrong way and conclude that Starsprite said he doesn't think that Solaris can destroy the cosmology)

 

[Telomera]

Idk man, after Solaris gets defeated we see those light rays bursting out, then everything gets engulfed in white, then this scene, and let's not ignore the direct statement about time being reset. You really gonna pretend there is nothing SUS?

Remind me when exactly time was stated to be reset: before or after they blew out Solaris? The opposition is claiming that the time travel caused by the boss's defeat changed the entire hypersnapshot.

 

[Starsprite53]

Remind me when exactly time was stated to be reset: before or after they blew out Solaris? The opposition is claiming that the time travel caused by the boss's defeat changed the entire hypersnapshot.

Before Elise wind haxed Solaris.

 

[JJSliderman]

Idk man, after Solaris gets defeated we see those light rays bursting out, then everything gets engulfed in white, then this scene, and let's not ignore the direct statement about time being reset. You really gonna pretend there is nothing SUS?

What direct statement, nothing about Solaris’ boss form defeat indicates time reset

 

[JJSliderman]

He haven't yet, all he did was merging all points of time into one point in Sonic's universe (Please don't take this in the wrong way and conclude that Starsprite said he doesn't think that Solaris can destroy the cosmology)

I have never seen this interpretation of Solaris supported by official media

 

[Starsprite53]

What direct statement, nothing about Solaris’ boss form defeat indicates time reset

This (Also why did you ignore the cutscenes, this makes me sad ovo)

 

[Starsprite53]

I have never seen this interpretation of Solaris supported by official media

Space-time intersection, Silver suddenly appearing out of nowhere, the cast somehow able to go through present and future stages. (I guess my previous is bit speculative but not too far)

 

[Theuser789]

Again, there's another false cause fallacy. They needed to go back to their time to restore their timeline, but that doesn't mean that it was time travel that actually restored their timeline.

The entire point is that they CAN time travel in the first place, despite time being destroyed. You're using a fallacy fallacy here.

 

[Telomera]

Of these only the last qualifies afaik. See the below bolded text:

It still wouldn't be quite enough since the method would have to be time travel in that specific case. Time travel wasn't used to get back to worlds erased by Solaris

This (Also why did you ignore the cutscenes, this makes me sad ovo)

The scan clearly states that "Elise snuff[ing] out Solaris in its most basic state" was what caused the destruction done by Solaris to be undone, not time travel. But tbh, it might not even matter since them defeating Solaris is obviously not the same as time travel.

 

[Theuser789]

I have never seen this interpretation of Solaris supported by official media

Because it's Starsprite's unsupported headcanon.

 

[Telomera]

The entire point is that they CAN time travel in the first place, despite time being destroyed. You're using a fallacy fallacy here.

Time was destroyed, but they could time travel because they were restoring spacetime. It's that simple. Hypertime is an unnecessary explanation.

 

[JJSliderman]

This (Also why did you ignore the cutscenes, this makes me sad ovo)

Ah.
I don’t think this debunks end of time being a higher order construct than the rest of the multiverse but I guess failure on my part to remember this. I guess maybe the light released from Solaris is meant to represent the absorbed time and dimensions going back into the multiverse? Idk.

 

[Theuser789]

Hypertime is an unnecessary explanation.

For you, but that's clearly what happened here. Just because you think it's "unnecessary" doesn't stop it from being true.

 

[Starsprite53]

end of time

I always thought the end of time not being erased is a counter evidence for time eater "destroying all of time space" (Obviously I'm not counting his own dimension because it was created by him and can prevent it from getting destroyed and place it in a far location)

 

[Telomera]

Basically, the arguments for the thread boil down to not knowing WTF is even happening, false standards that don't even ******* exist, and then Starsprite who is the only one targeting the actual scaling points instead of anything else.

Disagree with OP, neutral on what Starsprite is doing.

False standards? It's made quite clear in the Tiering System FAQ that the progression between snapshots of entire timelines has to contain an uncountably infinite amount of snapshots. Shake's only, and I really do mean only, justification for this is that "time travel" can be done to get from one of these timeline snapshots (what I called "hypersnapshots") to another, therefore the progression between them is "time-like" and would naturally contain an uncountably infinite amount of snapshots. While this would be a valid justification, the idea that time travel can be done to get from one timeline snapshot to another in the Sonic verse lacks support, so we are left with no proof at all for a hypertimeline.

 

[Telomera]

For you, but that's clearly what happened here. Just because you think it's "unnecessary" doesn't stop it from being true.

Explain how time being "reset" after Solaris's initial defeat proves that there is a time-like progression between timeline snapshots

 

[JJSliderman]

I always thought the end of time not being erased is a counter evidence for time eater "destroying all of time space" (Obviously I'm not counting his own dimension because it was created by him and can prevent it from getting destroyed and place it in a far location)

Well Eater can already manipulate the dimension with his powers, I take it as just Eggman not wanting to erase everything because he’s trying to rewrite history, and he needs some aspect of time to do that.

 

[Theuser789]

Explain how time being "reset" after Solaris's initial defeat proves that there is a time-like progression between timeline snapshots

Because, like others said, they can travel to a period of time after it was wholly erased. You seem to want the game to spoon-feed you everything that happened, which is not fair nor is it an obligation.

 

[Starsprite53]

I take it as just Eggman not wanting to erase everything because he’s trying to rewrite history

We're getting warmer.

 

[Causalist]

Basically, the arguments for the thread boil down to not knowing WTF is even happening, false standards that don't even ******* exist, and then Starsprite who is the only one targeting the actual scaling points instead of anything else.

Disagree with OP, neutral on what Starsprite is doing.

I second this

 

[Theuser789]

We're getting warmer.

Please don't spam the thread with low-quality posts.

 

[JJSliderman]

My stance is that if hypertime goes then end of time would just be construct vaguely beyond the rest of the multiverse, so like higher 5-D.

 

[Starsprite53]

they can travel to a period of time after it was wholly erased. You seem to want the game to spoon-feed you everything that happened, which is not fair nor is it an obligation.

Why would a temporal omnipresent being within a timeline reform into a flame in a previous timeline or snapshot or whatever? The whole cutscene implies it's a reset and it's happening within a linear singular one.

 

[DaReaperMan]

False standards? It's made quite clear in the Tiering System FAQ that the progression between snapshots of entire timelines has to contain an uncountably infinite amount of snapshots. Shake's only, and I really do mean only, justification for this is that "time travel" can be done to get from one of these timeline snapshots (what I called "hypersnapshots") to another, therefore the progression between them is "time-like" and would naturally contain an uncountably infinite amount of snapshots. While this would be a valid justification, the idea that time travel can be done to get from one timeline snapshot to another in the Sonic verse lacks support, so we are left with no proof at all for a hypertimeline.

sigh I'm not arguing with you. I know exactly how this goes: You keep on clinging to your original arguments like a spider to it's web, I eventually start properly arguing, get frustrated, start mocking you, we both go to RVR, and then things go from there.

Did I get things about right?

 

[Telomera]

Wrong link? It's explicitly shown and stated that Solaris wiped all of time and space, with the rift the heroes were standing in being the last (temporary) remnant.

Yeah my bad. Here it's stated that the timelines were still to be corrected after they beat Solaris and here that it was Elise blowing out Solaris that caused the damage to be reversed. Also, it wasn't time travel that let them do that in the first place.

Because, like others said, they can travel to a period of time after it was wholly erased. You seem to want the game to spoon-feed you everything that happened, which is not fair nor is it an obligation.

For the higher scaling to be valid, the progression between those two states has to be time-like. There's no evidence for that, it was never stated that they time traveled to get to that snapshot.

 

[Theuser789]

Yeah my bad. Here it's stated that the timelines were still to be corrected after they beat Solaris and here that it was Elise blowing out Solaris that caused the damage to be reversed. Also, it wasn't time travel that let them do that in the first place.

Game events>>>>Prima Guide. Game shows that all of time and space was destroyed, so that's what happened. Game shows Sonic and Elise going to the past, so that's what happened. Saying it didn't isn't an argument.

For the higher scaling to be valid, the progression between those two states has to be time-like. There's no evidence for that, it was never stated that they time traveled to get to that snapshot.

Because it's self-evident? If you travel from one time period to the other, you're time travelling.

 

[Starsprite53]

Game shows that all of time and space was destroyed

Will be destroyed*

 

[Telomera]

sigh I'm not arguing with you. I know exactly how this goes: You keep on clinging to your original arguments like a spider to it's web, I eventually start properly arguing, get frustrated, start mocking you, we both go to RVR, and then things go from there.

Did I get things about right?

No? It would be better if you explained why you think there's a time-like progression between timeline snapshots in Sonic, which the hypertimeline blog tried to prove. Every single counterexample has failed to do that, only citing examples where someone moves from one timeline snapshot to another without any evidence that such a movement was time-like and/or done through "time travel." And of course, the Tiering System FAQ has explained that citing examples of the existence of multiple different states of entire timelines isn't proof of a higher timeflow applicable for tiering

 

[ShakeResounding]

Sonic never said that time travel was what restored the timelines. That is just your headcanon. Literally all he said was "Still warm. Time travel!" The only reasonable way conclusion we can draw from Sonic saying that, given the immediate context, was that time travel helped him go through an entire adventure and still eat his chili dog while it's warm.

That's all he needs to say to debunk your unsubstantiated "Well maybe this?" or "Well maybe that!", because that single statement gives me more evidence than the entirety if your unfounded headcanon.

There is no evidence that time travel was used in that scenario either. You can claim that it was "evidenced by Elise's ending" all you want, but you still haven't demonstrated that time travel was the cause of those effects being undone. It helped them undo those effects, but the actual cause of those effects being undone was them blowing out Solaris, not them using time travel. Anything more is unproven headcanon that you'd need to cite sources to support

If you fail to comprehend time travel was involved when the entire plot of the game centers around that singular ability, in all three stories and doubly so at the climax, then it isn't my job to convince you.

All I'm doing is unmasking the blatant and recurring strawman you tried to smash so desperately in your OP.

None of that addresses the issue that there is no proof that there is a time-like progression between the universe being shattered and the reversal of that. You don't even have any statements of time travel involved here.

There's no evidence against it either because the show doesn't take place there, it takes place in the Shatterverse. The difference between me and you is that mine is evidenced with the use of time travel, and all you have is your own flimsy logic.

It doesn't take a PhD in Media Literacy to see that the final episode shows a time reversal;

• None of Sonic's friends are mad or exasperated at him for rushing head-first into the Paradox Prism, when the entire build-up in Episode 1 is that Sonic bullrushes and doesn't listen to them. If that were to still have happened, then their reaction to him in the finale is non-sensical. They weren't on a journey with him to experience his "growth".
• The dawn of realization on Sonic's face as he sees Eggman with the Prism again in the finale is blatant as all get-out that the events of Prime were never able to take place.
• The Paradox Prism is never shattered to begin with, Shadow uses Chaos Control to hide it away.

It can't be this hard to get.

 

[DaReaperMan]

No? It would be better if you explained why you think there's a time-like progression between timeline snapshots in Sonic, which the hypertimeline blog tried to prove. Every single counterexample has failed to do that, only citing examples where someone moves from one timeline snapshot to another without any evidence that such a movement was time-like and/or done through "time travel." And of course, the Tiering System FAQ has explained that citing examples of the existence of multiple different states of entire timelines isn't proof of a higher timeflow applicable for tiering

Would it be better if we applied your scrutiny to Doomguy and downgraded his ass to like Low 2-C?

 

[ShakeResounding]

In a moment of clarity, I apologize to you if any of my responses have seemed aggressive @Telomera. I'm just curt, I'm not trying to be rude or condescending.

 

[Telomera]

That's all he needs to say to debunk your unsubstantiated "Well maybe this?" or "Well maybe that!", because that single statement gives me more evidence than the entirety if your unfounded headcanon.

That single statement is talking about how he's able to eat his chili dog while it's still warm, not how he traveled from one snapshot of entire timelines to another. It's unrelated to your claim, which is to prove that the development of the timelines is time-like

If you fail to comprehend time travel was involved when the entire plot of the game centers around that singular ability, in all three stories and doubly so at the climax, then it isn't my job to convince you.

Of course it was involved, I never disputed that. What I'm disputing, and what you have failed to justify, is the claim that time travel was used to get from the timeline snapshot/hypertimeline snapshot where time was destroyed by Solaris to the timeline snapshot/hypersnapshot without that destruction. You have no proof that there was a time-like progression between those two snapshots.

It doesn't take a PhD in Media Literacy to see that the final episode shows a time reversal;

• None of Sonic's friends are mad or exasperated at him for rushing head-first into the Paradox Prism, when the entire build-up in Episode 1 is that Sonic bullrushes and doesn't listen to them. If that were to still have happened, then their reaction to him in the finale is non-sensical. They weren't on a journey with him to experience his "growth".
• The dawn of realization on Sonic's face as he sees Eggman with the Prism again in the finale is blatant as all get-out that the events of Prime were never able to take place.
• The Paradox Prism is never shattered to begin with, Shadow uses Chaos Control to hide it away.

None of that proves that the "time reversal" was time-like.

You keep citing examples where Sonic goes from one timeline snapshot to another while failing to realize that for your higher scaling to work, the progression between those snapshots has to either be time-like or otherwise of a nature so that it contains uncountably infinite snapshots. You have failed to prove either of these, only showing that there are in fact cases where there are separate snapshots of entire timelines, which is not sufficient.

 

[ShakeResounding]

We're getting warmer.

Ah yes, because comments like these are totally productive to the thread.

Come on man, you can't play the victim and then turn around and subtly mock people/imply that they are slow on the uptake because they disagree with your take.