Greenverse Major Revisions - Part 1: Cosmology.

[ExcelsisBerny]

And since he is beyond all possible worlds

That's literally never stated in the scan you sent.

 

[Re5yh]

That's literally never stated in the scan you sent.

I meant all worlds that people know and all worlds people don't know

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I meant all worlds that people know and all worlds people don't know

That's not High 1-A+. Although I agree with God being baseline High 1-A using that same scan you sent.

 

[Udlmaster]

With all due respect, I don't care about Ultima's input unless he actually shows up in the post and responds to my arguments personally. None of this disproves my analysis. Let's not act like Ultima is the supreme god of truth on this wiki.

It shows how your analysis is flawed as the creator of the system you are using to argue disagreed.

And again, there's more colouring. Nowhere has anyone treated Ultima as "the supreme god of truth", just as someone who not only helped create the system and so knows about it the most, but also that his reliability is much more significant than another who is declaring themselves to be the one in the right and everyone else to be wrong. This is just credibility.

something I’ve already pointed out, by the way.

This is something you don't have to point out. Again, I don't know why you're taking this aggressive and condescending tone. Maybe you shouldn't engage if you can't maintain a bare minimum of civility.

Where is it stated?

Something unbearably vast descending into our reality. Something so impossibly big it had to compress itself to fit into our narrow Space/Time continuum. Everyone's first impulse, including mine, was to run, but the sheer force of the approaching Presence held us helpless where we were, like mice in the gaze of the serpent, or insects caught in the heat focussed through a magnifying glass. Something finally materialised in the Great Auction Hall with us, so huge and powerful it hurt our minds even to think about it, drawing everything towards it like a massive gravity well. It was too Real for our limited reality; so Real it sucked everything else into it.

The Presence settled heavily into our world, spreading out in directions we couldn't even name; something Huge and Vast downloaded from a higher dimension. - Hex and the City, pg. 18

This is in the OP's blog which you said you'd read.

his argument is self-defeating, because if the higher-plane being is truly 1-A, and in order to enter a lower plane it must create an avatar (which logically means the avatar isn’t 1-A), then the characters from the lower reality have no reason whatsoever to describe it as “too real for our minds.”

Or it would have to download itself. The text even says it's limiting itself.

The difference between higher dimensions is still ontological, yes, but not to the degree required for 1-A. I already established that in my response.

Very clearly not. You're just declaring "I disagree, therefore, no."

Your first paragraph is just declaring it's absurd and then your second one is already addressed, you don't need R>F for dimensions, but these do have it. We're repeatedly told that Higher dimensions are more real, so much so that it makes things around them less real, with examples of people being turned into 2-D pictures and chalk drawings.

Incredibly hypocritical of you to say that, considering I laid out a concrete line of reasoning for everything I said in my response, while all you've done here is further disprove the 1-A claim (and pure authority fallacy).

It very clearly wasn't concrete.

I suggest you tone it down a bit.

I think maybe you should take a step back because you can't seem to check your tone when talking to other people.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

This argument is self-defeating, because if the higher-plane being is truly 1-A, and in order to enter a lower plane it must create an avatar (which logically means the avatar isn’t 1-A), then the characters from the lower reality have no reason whatsoever to describe it as “too real for our minds.”

Maybe .too lazy.

The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

I mean, if the verse describes Form like that, then they're just using the concept correctly in the first place. And in general, utter superiority over spacetime that goes beyond physical factors (e.g. If you're some conceptual realm beyond matter) is just 1-A to begin with. Well i dont know we...

vsbattles.com

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

It shows how your analysis is flawed as the creator of the system you are using to argue disagreed.

Crazy appeal to authority. I'm only going to respond to the parts of your messages that actually have substance.

If my analysis is flawed… then prove it. Just like any other user on this wiki.

This is something you don't have to point out. Again, I don't know why you're taking this aggressive and condescending tone. Maybe you shouldn't engage if you can't maintain a bare minimum of civility.

I'm not using an aggressive tone. Can you please stop twisting the intent behind my messages? It's honestly getting annoying. Thanks.

This is in the OP's blog which you said you'd read.

In that context, the only thing being referenced is the entities’ ability to compact themselves, a physical process that requires size.

It’s a metaphorical expression. Download means to retrieve something, like when you download a package of information from a cloud. The data is equivalent in quantity to the original, so it’s pretty clear the process isn’t meant to be taken literally the way you’re framing it.

Something unbearably vast descending into our reality. Something so impossibly big it had to compress itself to fit into our narrow Space/Time continuum

That statement doesn't help your case in the slightest.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Or it would have to download itself. The text even says it's limiting itself.

Obviously, like what? A higher-dimensional being is descending into a lower dimension. Of course it has to limit itself in order to do so; otherwise, higher dimensions wouldn’t even be valid in the first place.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Maybe .too lazy.

The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

I mean, if the verse describes Form like that, then they're just using the concept correctly in the first place. And in general, utter superiority over spacetime that goes beyond physical factors (e.g. If you're some conceptual realm beyond matter) is just 1-A to begin with. Well i dont know we...

vsbattles.com

I'm not saying those beings aren't 1-A because they can enter a fiction. My critique is aimed at the method and the specific statement about the character's epistemic limit that's being used somehow to support the 1-A claim.

It's self-contradictory.

 

[Udlmaster]

Crazy appeal to authority. I'm only going to respond to the parts of your messages that actually have substance.

If my analysis is flawed… then prove it. Just like any other user on this wiki.

It's almost like the person who made the system would know about it better than you do, and as Grabbling_Dragon already showed, this is consistent.

You are just declaring "I know more than anyone else".

I'm not using an aggressive tone. Can you please stop twisting the intent behind my messages? It's honestly getting annoying. Thanks.

"I'm not using a passive aggressive tone!" <Proceeds to use a passive aggressive tone.>

In that context, the only thing being referenced is the entities’ ability to compact themselves, a physical process that requires size.

Do you not think that "compressing" can refer to things outside of physical size? This is denial at this point, a solid "Nuh uh!.

For example, do you think a compressed file on a hard drive takes up physically less space on a computer or does it instead refer to another value (data size) which has been diminished?

For example, compressing their realness to shift states within a less real reality.

It’s a metaphorical expression. Download means to retrieve something, like when you download a package of information from a cloud. The data is equivalent in quantity to the original, so it’s pretty clear the process isn’t meant to be taken literally the way you’re framing it.

Yeah, as in to transfer data from the Original to a copy. Combined with "compressed", it's a reduced version. You say here that it's "metaphorical" but the other metaphor (compression) goes over your head and you declare that as literal. It's obvious you're picking and choosing what is metaphor and what isn't based on your preconceptions.

You're trying to address these differently as if they are two mutually exclusive things when they're not because to do so would reveal your argument to be fundamentally wrong.

Obviously, like what? A higher-dimensional being is descending into a lower dimension.

Or a more real being limiting itself in a less real one. What even is this argument?

I'm not saying those beings aren't 1-A because they can enter a fiction.

Yes you were, to quote yourself:

because if the higher-plane being is truly 1-A, and in order to enter a lower plane it must create an avatar

Grabbling_Dragon then showed you that you are wrong.

Unarguably, objectively wrong.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Do you not think that "compressing" can refer to things outside of physical size? This is denial at this point, a solid "Nuh uh!.

For example, do you think a compressed file on a hard drive takes up physically less space on a computer or does it instead refer to another value (data size) which has been diminished?

For example, compressing their realness to shift states within a less real reality.

Yeah, as in to transfer data from the Original to a copy. Combined with "compressed", it's a reduced version.

Incredibly bad false equivalence. Compressing a file on a computer has nothing to do with physical size, it’s just data within an electrical system.

In the scan I showed above, the act of compressing is directly tied to reducing one’s physical magnitude, because the being needs to enter a system made up of physical magnitudes (space-time).

Something unbearably vast descending into our reality. Something so impossibly big it had to compress itself to fit into our narrow Space/Time continuum

Massive leap in logic to go from compressing a file on a computer to compressing “realness” (whatever that’s even supposed to mean).

And all of this is happening in the explicitly material part of the cosmology.

Yes you were, to quote yourself:

????????????????

My full statement:

This argument is self-defeating, because if the higher-plane being is truly 1-A, and in order to enter a lower plane it must create an avatar (which logically means the avatar isn’t 1-A), then the characters from the lower reality have no reason whatsoever to describe it as “too real for our minds.”

What I’m pointing out in this message is the logical contradiction of a being that’s 1-A on an ontological level still being 1-A on an ontological after entering a lower fiction. Thats literally one of the textbook anti feats for the tier 1-A what?

If you’re going to keep being circular and ignoring my points, we can just wait for staff input.

 

[Udlmaster]

Incredibly bad false equivalence. Compressing a file on a computer has nothing to do with physical size, it’s just data within an electrical system.

I literally illustrated a point where "compression" doesn't always refer to physical size and can refer to other qualities:

the only thing being referenced is the entities’ ability to compact themselves, a physical process that requires size.

This isn't a false equivalence, this is me proving that "compression" doesn't just refer to physicality but can refer to many other things.

In the scan I showed above, the act of compressing is directly tied to reducing one’s physical magnitude, because the being needs to enter a system made up of physical magnitudes (space-time).

See above.

What I’m pointing out in this message is the logical contradiction of a being that’s 1-A on an ontological level still being 1-A on an ontological after entering a lower fiction.

You're now backtracking and trying to amend what you said. You can try and post what you said in full as if it changes anything because we can see it.

You were proven objectively wrong.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Thank you for blatantly proving that you don’t read the points I’m making. We can wait for staff.

 

[Rutæhh]

bump

 

[Rutæhh]

bump

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

This really need to be done

 

[Re5yh]

This really need to be done

It's no use, I tried calling Oblivion and Ritsu to check this thread, but they won't respond.

 

[Rutæhh]

this thread wont finish until next year

 

[Re5yh]

this thread wont finish until next year

It will before gta6

 

[Rutæhh]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

@FinePoint @ActuallySpaceMan42

Do you think that ExcelsisBerny or Udlmaster make better sense in their arguments here, or do you have another interpretation?

 

[FinePoint]

@FinePoint @ActuallySpaceMan42

Do you think that ExcelsisBerny or Udlmaster make better sense in their arguments here, or do you have another interpretation?

My overall opinion is still this:

"That is to say, there's the first set of "dimensions", which scales up and down through 1-A, and the second one, which scales up and down through High 1-A. They're separate conceptually and practically, they just happen to both be called "dimensions"."

To further this, it's worth noting that 'dimension' as a word doesn't always refer to spatial/temporal dimensions as we think of them, but is also a word which can be as incredibly vague as "an aspect or feature of something".

Explicitly, the second 'thing' contains both higher and lower dimensions which 'don't exist' in the previous one.
From a mathematical perspective, an object should still view higher and lower dimensions as 'existing'- but potentially with zero value.
Sometimes fiction doesn't pictures it that way, but it would be strange for it to mention both higher and lower in that context, rather than just higher.

High 1-A is (now more properly) described as: "Characters or objects who operate on a different, superior qualitative framework from 1-A entities."
To have new 'dimensions' which didn't exist before in both directions implies different framework. The fact that the object in question is described as 'beyond' the other implies superiority.

Therefore, if we establish the previous layers of dimensions differentiated through the quality 'realness' as 1-A, then this new thing beyond it is presumably High 1-A.

The alternate interpretation is that the only reason new dimensions exist is because each dimension views the last as fictional, but it's important to note that in terms of High 1-A/1-A we sort of recognize multiple ways to have a R>F difference as noted by the Q&A.

The 1-A one would be:

Q: Is transcending an 1-A character to the same degree they transcend normal humans High 1-A?​

A: Generally speaking, no. The first level of 1-A is obtained by surpassing the composition of a lower reality, such that no union, combination or permutation of things within it, no matter how numerous, can attain to the higher level. The next level up repeats this pattern, so that no union, permutation or combination of things in the previous level can attain to it. And so on and so forth. As such, this proportion is already covered by a single additional level.

But below that we have:

However, depending on the context, it can be High 1-A or supporting evidence for it, indeed. Specifically, if the statement is not meant to be inform the actual proportion between the powers of two characters, but simply their relative position in a cosmology. As, in a certain respect, it is valid to say that "High 1-A transcends 1-A in the same way 1-A transcends lower tiers," insofar as High 1-A transcends the generic quality defining a hierarchy or potential hierarchy of qualitative layers, just as 1-A transcends the qualities defining all conceivable dimensional spaces.

In short, the contention would be: "Does this new hierarchy transcend the quality of 'realness' as previously established?"

I would argue yes, since it's beyond it, has new dimensions which didn't exist before, and is also noted as being 'conceptually perfect'.
That's at least three ways one could extrapolate the possibility that the previous definition of 'realness' is being transcended here.

That said, this isn't an objective truth, and it's not like the verse lays that argument out in the exact terms we're looking for.
Since there's a logical path to both conclusions from the evidence, we sort of have to now guess which is more likely based on the context.
On that front, I'd trust a supporter over myself to say that. The same is true for whether the previous dimensions are actually transcendent over one another through the quality of 'realness' or if that's just a metaphor for the relationship between two spatial dimensions, though I think there's a lot of contextual evidence to suggest that's not the case.

---

I will say that I respect/sympathize with ExcelsisBerny being a bit annoyed at the way Ultima's name/supposed opinion is often invoked around here as an absolute truth. Whether true or not, I don't think it's a good debate tactic to rely on "X agrees with me" rather than simply laying out the core argument. It's a blatant appeal to authority, and therefore a logical fallacy which avoids actual discussion.

However, that aside, I simply don't agree with their interpretation, and do think Uldmaster's conclusion makes more sense.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for your reply.

So what tiering will we end up with here then?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

To further this, it's worth noting that 'dimension' as a word doesn't always refer to spatial/temporal dimensions as we think of them, but is also a word which can be as incredibly vague as "an aspect or feature of something".

Explicitly, the second 'thing' contains both higher and lower dimensions which 'don't exist' in the previous one.
From a mathematical perspective, an object should still view higher and lower dimensions as 'existing'- but potentially with zero value.
Sometimes fiction doesn't pictures it that way, but it would be strange for it to mention both higher and lower in that context, rather than just higher.

Can you please quote the scan you’re referring to?

I’m just going to say your message doesn’t address all of my points. I explicitly showed that those supposedly ‘1-A dimensions’ refer to geometric physical dimensions on the physical side of the cosmology, and that higher dimensional beings require a causal process tied to their size to enter a lower dimension, which directly contradicts 1-A, since a 1-A entity is irreducible.

I also pointed out a logical problem with accepting the fact that those beings are still ontologically 1-A inside the supposed no 1-A fiction, which completely destroys the coherence of the opposing side scaling.

I would like to read responses to those points.

 

[FinePoint]

Can you please quote the scan you’re referring to?

I’m just going to say your message doesn’t address all of my points. I explicitly showed that those supposedly ‘1-A dimensions’ refer to geometric physical dimensions on the physical side of the cosmology, and that higher dimensional beings require a causal process tied to their size to enter a lower dimension, which directly contradicts 1-A, since a 1-A entity is irreducible.

I also pointed out a logical problem with accepting the fact that those beings are still ontologically 1-A inside the supposed no 1-A fiction, which completely destroys the coherence of the opposing side scaling.

I would like to read responses to those points.

No problem, and you're right: I had a lot to say in general, and didn't give much attention to this point beside a vague mention of 'contextual evidence'.

Realness is first brought up here, where it's claimed these higher dimensional beings are too 'Real' for 'our limited reality'. Spreading in directions 'we couldn't even name'. Then it mentions many things beginning to fade conceptually in information, losing things like 'individuality' and 'details'- 'Stripped of everything that made them real.'

Contextually, this contrasts with a vast majority of depictions of higher dimensions, which almost always focus on a sense of being 'infinitely small'. Being unfathomable is common, but to strip everything not just of physical qualities, but things which make them unique and 'real' as well is different. It implies being absorbed into something which renders them not just infinitely small, but actually fictional.

As for being irreducible, note: "Unless, of course, this division is somehow non-quantitative in nature (i.e. The results of the division are not actually numerical "chunks" of the character's power); however, this should be made reasonably clear by statements or through background context."
They logically can't reduce themselves numerically, but they can reduce themselves in some way, even if vague, since fiction allows for anything.

That is to say, that they 'entered' a lower dimension in itself isn't a logical contradiction to things we already accept on this wiki such as Immersion.
Rather than an anti-feat, you could just interpret this as some kind of hax or PIS.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Alright, thank you. Sorry, but I strongly disagree with your points. I’m going to explain myself as clearly as I can so we can avoid another endless back and forth.

Realness is first brought up here, where it's claimed these higher dimensional beings are too 'Real' for 'our limited reality'. Spreading in directions 'we couldn't even name'. Then it mentions many things beginning to fade conceptually in information, losing things like 'individuality' and 'details'- 'Stripped of everything that made them real.'

This is something I already addressed in my exchange with the other user, but perhaps I was not clear enough. Let’s take a look.

It is important to contextualize this claim.

The parts in the scans that support your thesis are these two:

It was too Real for our limited reality; so Real it sucked everything else into it.

Details of this world's reality were being stripped away and sucked in, absorbed by the Presence. Not because it chose to, but just because of what was. The teddy bears lumbered towards it, drawn by some inexorable summons, only to fall one by one to the floor, reduced to just toy bears again. Terrible changes swept through those people closest to the Presence. Suddenly, some could only be seen from the back, no matter which way you looked at them. Faces lost their individuality, becoming blank and generic.

Details of clothing disappeared as though smoothed away by an unseen hand, then lost their colour. People became black-and-white two- dimensional photographs, and finally just chalk drawings, until all they were was sucked into the gravity well. Stripped of everything that made them real.

In these two scans we see a presence/being from a higher dimension that upon entering the lower one, begins to absorb everything through supermassive gravity, absorbing all the qualities of three dimensional reality.

The way this higher plane entity accesses the lower dimension is through a compaction process by which its existence is compressed, removing the property of an additional axis in order to exist within three dimensional reality.

This is the whole text of the first sentence:

Something unbearably vast descending into our reality. Something so impossibly big it had to compress itself to fit into our narrow Space/Time continuum. Everyone's first impulse, including mine, was to run, but the sheer force of the approaching Presence held us helpless where we were, like mice in the gaze of the serpent, or insects caught in the heat focussed through a magnifying glass. Something finally materialised in the Great Auction Hall with us, so huge and powerful it hurt our minds even to think about it, drawing everything towards it like a massive gravity well. It was too Real for our limited reality; so Real it sucked everything else into it.

I want you to pay attention to how the sentence is constructed. The logical progression of the sentence implies that:

The presence has an incredibly vast extent before descending into the lower reality.

Something unbearably vast descending into our reality.

The presence is so vast that, because of its physical magnitude, it cannot enter spacetime, a four dimensional model composed of other physical magnitudes, so it needs to compress itself in order to exist within it.

Something so impossibly big it had to compress itself to fit into our narrow Space/Time continuum.

Therefore, we know that the higher dimensional entity began a compression process and is carrying it out at that very moment in order to exist within spacetime.

In the course of compression, the entity partially manifests in three dimensional reality.

Something finally materialised in the Great Auction Hall with us, so huge and powerful it hurt our minds even to think about it, drawing everything towards it like a massive gravity well.

Now then, given all of this, we can be confident that the higher dimensional entity had to reduce its existence in size in order to be in the lower dimension. We know the process is gradual, since even while it remains in the lower dimension humans cannot comprehend its form fully and it continues to extend beyond the usual cardinal dimensions.

Its thoughts smashed into everyone's minds, as harsh and merciless as a spotlight, searching for the single significant thing that had brought it to this petty, limited place.

The Presence settled heavily into our world, spreading out in directions we couldn't even name; something Huge and Vast downloaded from a higher dimension.

Therefore, the mentions of being «too real» and of «extending into directions we cannot name» are simply due to the compression or download process being gradual, with part of the entity’s nature remaining higher dimensional. The characters are experiencing a being whose dimensional qualities exceed their understanding, and so their minds break (the dimensional difference is qualitative as well).

This completely breaks with the rules for the 1A tier. As I stated before, a 1A entity cannot in any way access a lower plane by reducing its size. This is mentioned multiple times in the tiering system.

Lastly on this point, the part where the presence absorbs all the features of the three dimensional world is fine, but it does not support 1A in any way. Saying that reality was reduced to drawings does not demonstrate an R>F at all; it is simply a way to explain how the 3D was turning into 2D as the presence absorbed everything.

With this I hope I have made my point clearer. All of this is fully consistent with the work’s own context. Those dimensions belong to the physical side of the cosmology, not the metaphysical, which is crucial for context. 1A lies beyond any spatiotemporal differentiation, so it cannot be material unless a meta space or something similar is established, which does not occur in that part of the cosmology.

I strongly disagree with the proposed tiers.

First of all, let’s take a bit of context about how the cosmology works in the verse, which is actually very well established in one of the scans included in the blog:



Based on the information in this scan, we basically know that the cosmology can be simplified as a pyramid: with the material at the base and God at the top. It’s a progression from flesh and spirit to pure thought and beyond.

Now then, we can see that the "material world" itself has a sort of “sub-hierarchy,” so to speak, where the higher you go, the stranger, more magical, and more unreal the realms become, until eventually they leave behind the constraints of the material altogether.

This is extremely important because, based on what’s established in the blog, these realms still belong to the material:

1) The Nightside
2)The Chronoflow

Nightside

Starting with the Nightside, the OP’s blog proposes that it’s a realm with 27 layers in 1-A because it mentions beings that are “more real” than others.



However, let’s remember once again that we’re still within the material part of the cosmology, these are higher geometric dimensions, which means the idea of qualitative jumps like the ones VSBW requires for 1-A is completely absurd at this stage.

That statement is being used metaphorically to describe existential differences and the inherent complexity that comes with being from a higher world (since, let’s not forget, a higher dimension already represents an ontological leap in properties, you absolutely don’t need R > F for that).

And the proof of this is right there in the same scan that’s being used to argue for 1-A:





Basically, something from a higher dimension can descend into a lower reality, and the quality cited as making it difficult for it to enter the continuous space-time is its size (which is why it had to be compacted in order to descend).

This completely cuts off any claim to 1-A, since at those levels the very notion of conventional “size” is already completely transcended.

The second statement used to argue for 1-A is this one:



But this doesn’t prove 1-A either. For a higher-dimensional being, of course the lower dimension is going to appear as a flat two-dimensional plane, and “stripped of everything that made them real” is an empty statement, it doesn’t actually mean anything as stand-alone and, as we saw earlier, it's just referring to a standard dimensional difference.

Honestly, the evidence here is incredibly thin. If this were accepted, then a whole bunch of other verses that metaphorically portray dimensional differences as “flat 2D planes” would suddenly jump to 1-A for no real reason.

So then, what tier should the Nightside have?

Honestly, it seems more like an alternate dimension to the conventional mortal world.

Citing the blog:



Basically, it’s a world separated by dimensional barriers. How high does it scale? At least to 5-D (Low 1-C).

The scan in the OP’s blog that supposedly supports 27-D doesn’t necessarily imply that the Nightside itself contains that dimensional structure, it just mentions a 27-D being that descended and granted a title to a being from the Nightside or something along those lines (which, again, is yet another higher-dimensional being descending into lower dimensions, completely breaking any 1-A argument).

Giving the benefit of the doubt, and considering the Nightside does seem to be (as the name suggests) some kind of reflection or shadow of the universe/world (and that world appears to be at least 27-D) then maybe 1-B could be workable. I have no problem with that so far.

Chronoflow

Now then, the Chronoflow is simply a quantum multiverse (which even the Nightside is a part of) so what we’re dealing with here, for now, is an infinite quantum multiverse made up of universes that each have a normal side and a Nightside.

Both sides are potentially 27-D (1-B).

Now that we’ve covered the Chronoflow, let’s move on to the immaterial.

We know the Outside is what lies beyond the Chronoflow, a level where conceptual beings reside, meaning materiality no longer exists at this point.

Outside

This is by far the most interesting part so far.

In the blog, the OP assigns it a ridiculous tier (High 1-A) basically just for being beyond the material world but based on the scans presented, that’s an exaggeration.

The Outside is simply a space that exists beyond the three cardinal dimensions and beyond time (the Chronoflow). It’s the final threshold before the immaterial truly begins. In other words, it’s part of what that first scan was referring to.



Since the Primals are defined as those who were present in the first days of creation (and they’re entities from the Outside) it makes sense in my head to interpret the Outside as referring to everything that lies beyond the physical world.

That’s a reasonable interpretation, though it could also just be the preliminary stage before fully transcending the illusion.

Either way, since this realm is explicitly beyond all geometric dimensions of the material world and is described as a conceptual plane, I think Low 1-A is fair in this case.

The Reality Behind Reality

This, in my opinion, is where 1-A truly begins, where everything below it is trivialized as an insubstantial illusion. The avatars of the entities from this plane are merely shadows cast onto a surface, very much like the gods of the Sphere of the Gods in DC Comics.

Heaven – Court of Holies

This is the plane of the angels, those closest to God. Based on the information provided, it’s not possible to define an exact tier, but it should logically be some number of layers above 1-A, since it clearly stands above the lower plane and the other worlds mentioned in the statement at the beginning of this message.



God

The only being in the verse that should be rated as High 1-A. Explicitly beyond all qualities and everything that makes up the entire "pyramid" of the cosmology.



TIERS

So basically, the tiers should be:

Universe → 1-B (27-D)
Nightside → 1-B (27D)
Cronoflow -> 1-B (Likely 28-D)
Outside → Low 1-A
The Reality Behind Reality → 1-A (baseline)
The Courts of the Holy / Heaven → 1-A (unspecified number of layers above baseline)
God → High 1-A

So well, next point.

Contextually, this contrasts with a vast majority of depictions of higher dimensions, which almost always focus on a sense of being 'infinitely small'. Being unfathomable is common, but to strip everything not just of physical qualities, but things which make them unique and 'real' as well is different. It implies being absorbed into something which renders them not just infinitely small, but actually fictional.

Yeah, that is because most fiction authors do not know how to portray dimensional differences well, and the wiki itself has some confusion on the subject. What I laid out above is the correct representation of what it would be like to perceive something dimensionally superior, unfathomable due to our limited epistemology.

As for being irreducible, note: "Unless, of course, this division is somehow non-quantitative in nature (i.e. The results of the division are not actually numerical "chunks" of the character's power); however, this should be made reasonably clear by statements or through background context."
They logically can't reduce themselves numerically, but they can reduce themselves in some way, even if vague, since fiction allows for anything.

The problem with this is that the reduction is explicitly quantitative (the only qualitative part is removing an axis from its own existence). We cannot ignore the source text to forcibly fit the work to how the wiki operates.

That is to say, that they 'entered' a lower dimension in itself isn't a logical contradiction to things we already accept on this wiki such as Immersion.
Rather than an anti-feat, you could just interpret this as some kind of hax or PIS.

Sadly, this is not the case here. Accepting your line of reasoning would basically turn the anti feats for 1A into a joke anyone could dismiss with enough coping, and that cannot be the case, because our goal is to be strict and index things correctly.

 

[FinePoint]

This completely breaks with the rules for the 1A tier. As I stated before, a 1A entity cannot in any way access a lower plane by reducing its size. This is mentioned multiple times in the tiering system.

An exception exists which I quoted, if that this reduction is size itself is qualitative. That's not stated explicitly, but I felt like it was implied.

Yeah, that is because most fiction authors do not know how to portray dimensional differences well, and the wiki itself has some confusion on the subject. What I laid out above is the correct representation of what it would be like to perceive something dimensionally superior, unfathomable due to our limited epistemology.

That's entirely subjective.

The problem with this is that the reduction is explicitly quantitative (the only qualitative part is removing an axis from its own existence). We cannot ignore the source text to forcibly fit the work to how the wiki operates.

Sadly, this is not the case here. Accepting your line of reasoning would basically turn the anti feats for 1A into a joke anyone could dismiss with enough coping, and that cannot be the case, because our goal is to be strict and index things correctly.

I would argue it's not 'explicitly' either. It uses a number of quantitative terms, and a number of qualitative terms.
Therefore, I think we're once again left to just guess which is more likely.

At a time like this, I really wish we had an efficient way of allowing two technically valid interpretations, but alas the wiki prefers us to simply pick a side.

Anyway, part of my confidence was that prior to this people who seemed knowledgeable on the verse considered it the more likely interpretation. Since that's clearly more contested now, I can't confidently say I prefer either strongly. I'll say maybe I lean slightly towards yours.

Since we have only one tool in our kit for something this subjective, I suppose I'll invoke it, and say I'll officially support the following:

Nightside → 1-B, Possibly 1-A
Outside → Low 1-A, Possibly High 1-A
The Reality Behind Reality → 1-A, Possibly High 1-A
The Courts of the Holy / Heaven → 1-A, Possibly High 1-A
God → High 1-A

 

[Antvasima]

At a time like this, I really wish we had an efficient way of allowing two technically valid interpretations, but alas the wiki prefers us to simply pick a side.

In very uncertain cases we tend to use "A, possibly B", as you have done here.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

An exception exists which I quoted, if that this reduction is size itself is qualitative. That's not stated explicitly, but I felt like it was implied.

Yeah, you quoted a part of the explanation that literally says a difference can exist but it should not be quantitative, which, as I wrote above, does not meet that requirement.

"Unless, of course, this division is somehow non-quantitative in nature (i.e. The results of the division are not actually numerical "chunks" of the character's power);

On top of that, the very text practically applies the «Sagan standard», requiring genuinely substantial evidence to accept something so uncommon, which is not the case based on the current scans, since the argument relies on allusions to a simple dimensional difference expressed in a flowery way.

however, this should be made reasonably clear by statements or through background context."

That's entirely subjective.

Idk what do you mean with this, but que properties of dimensional differences are not subjective. The current standards only equate dimensional differences to quantitative increases, which is not how it works in geometry.

Nightside → 1-B, Possibly 1-A
Outside → Low 1-A, Possibly High 1-A
The Reality Behind Reality → 1-A, Possibly High 1-A
The Courts of the Holy / Heaven → 1-A, Possibly High 1-A
God → High 1-A

I don't agree with the possibly tbh.

 

[FinePoint]

Yeah, you quoted a part of the explanation that literally says a difference can exist but it should not be quantitative, which, as I wrote above, does not meet that requirement.

On top of that, the very text practically applies the «Sagan standard», requiring genuinely substantial evidence to accept something so uncommon, which is not the case based on the current scans, since the argument relies on allusions to a simple dimensional difference expressed in a flowery way.

Well 'background context' itself is vague and so to be proven reasonably clear by it will also be vague. That is to say, I think the answer is written in a way that encourages us to decide case-by-case rather than make a wide assumption of any specific requirement of evidence.

Idk what do you mean with this, but que properties of dimensional differences are not subjective. The current standards only equate dimensional differences to quantitative increases, which is not how it works in geometry.

That "most fiction authors do not know how to portray dimensional differences well" is subjective, as well as "What I laid out above is the correct representation of what it would be like to perceive something dimensionally superior."

The existence of real higher dimensions in the geometry sense isn't even scientifically confirmed, let alone the exact differences known.

I don't agree with the possibly tbh.

That is fine. Were it our job to convince all dissent to switch sides, we would all go insane.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

The existence of real higher dimensions in the geometry sense isn't even scientifically confirmed, let alone the exact differences known.

Their existence in real life has not been proven, but what it entails to have additional axes is a subject of study in itself.

Axes are an extra quality a system acquires. A two dimensional reality completely lacks the quality of volume, so its existence within a third dimension is impossible. That is a qualitative difference, because a missing property X in a system cannot be supplied through quantitative increments. No matter how large a two dimensional plane becomes, it will never have volume and therefore does not exist in a way we could even perceive.

Unlike 1A, dimensional difference is a distinction that blends quantitative increase with higher order qualitative change.

I am not asking authors to establish something so exact in their works, they are not power scalers. But we do have to be exact, because what we do is extract content from a fictional medium and analyze it using a metric that can provide a pseudo-objectivity to the analysis.

Anyways we are derailing. We can wait to more input.

 

[Quasar002]

To further this, it's worth noting that 'dimension' as a word doesn't always refer to spatial/temporal dimensions as we think of them, but is also a word which can be as incredibly vague as "an aspect or feature of something".

I don’t think Simon R. Green treats higher dimensions as merely spatial axes beyond 3, but rather as higher realities/universes. For example, in Daemons Are Forever, it says that just as there are higher dimensions, there are also lower dimensions, and these lower dimensions are broken universes where the laws of physics never really fit together properly:

“Look,” said Molly. “Forget the spiritual crap, and keep it simple. The Many-Angled Ones, the Hungry Gods, come from a higher dimension, right? Well, if there are higher dimensions than ours, then it stands to reason that there must also be lesser, lower dimensions. The broken universes, where natural laws never really got their act together. The Damnation Way can take us through one such world. And you don’t run there, you walk. For as long as it takes. This isn’t about speed, it’s about stamina.”

So if lower dimensions are just another name for a lower universe, then a higher dimension must be just another name for a higher universe. And that’s indeed what happens in this book. In another moment, a higher dimension (belonging to the Hungry Gods) is called a higher realm:

“Not my friend, Eddie. Dear Sue had to go, because she might eventually have realised you could use the Damnation Way to access the higher realms. And we don’t like visitors here. We really don’t.”

You can also swap the term “higher dimension” for “higher reality”:

The Many-Angled Ones, the Horror From Beyond, the Hungry Gods. Beings from a higher reality than our own, who descend into lesser realities like ours in order to feed, to consume us.

So I’d say the term “higher dimension” here isn’t in the scientific sense, but more tied to the idea of a higher realm, higher reality, and so on, as the quotes above show.

I’d also argue that the conventional universe isn’t 3D/4D, because the Notional Man (the body he uses) wasn’t beyond the universe or anything, and there’s this quote here:

He didn’t walk towards me; he was just suddenly there, right in front of me. I did my best not to jump or flinch away. Up close, he was even more disturbing. It hurt my eyes to look at him directly; everything about him was wrong. Like a circle with straight lines, or a room with too many angles. He had height and breadth and depth and other things too. I could feel myself shaking. — The Spy Who Haunted Me

I think that’s at least 5D (besides the strange geometry).

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

So I’d say the term “higher dimension” here isn’t in the scientific sense, but more tied to the idea of a higher realm, higher reality, and so on, as the quotes above show.

I am not sure which part of the cosmology this refers to, but in my view it does point to dimensions in a geometric sense, at least in the portion we were discussing, while also defining higher dimensions as higher realities, because that is essentially what they are.

The two terms are not mutually exclusive. I hope that makes sense.

I think that’s at least 5D (besides the strange geometry).

What's the full context of that quote? I'm curious.

 

[Quasar002]

I am not sure which part of the cosmology this refers to.

I’d say that beyond the chronoflux, although I have no idea about the Outside.

but in my view it does point to dimensions in a geometric sense, at least in the portion we were discussing, while also defining higher dimensions as higher realities, because that is essentially what they are

I think so. But it could also mean something else. I’m neutral at the moment, but I think the fact that “higher dimension” is interchangeable with “higher realm” or “higher reality” is a point both sides can use.

What's the full context of that quote? I'm curious.

It’s extremely ambiguous. Eddie Drood gives an explanation of what the Notional Man is, in which he’s a man who’s been reduced (or evolved) to his most abstract form, then reveals some theories about how he ended up in that state. Later in the text, right after the quote I sent earlier, the Notional Man invades Eddie’s mind looking for something or someone, and disappears. Just like that, lol

He turned his abstract head in my direction, and I felt the impact of his gaze. He knew who I really was. He knew everything he wanted to know. He didn’t walk towards me; he was just suddenly there, right in front of me. I did my best not to jump or flinch away. Up close, he was even more disturbing. It hurt my eyes to look at him directly; everything about him was wrong. Like a circle with straight lines, or a room with too many angles. He had height and breadth and depth and other things too. I could feel myself shaking. His voice exploded inside my head, and I cried out. He was sound and colours and deafening images. The Notional Man had moved beyond speech into something that might have been the other side of telepathy. All I could tell was that he was looking for something or someone, but he couldn’t make me understand what. Blood spurted from my nostrils and welled up from under my eyelids. And then, just like that, he was back where he had been before, and the only person inside my head was me. A passing Man in Black offered me a paper tissue, and I nodded gratefully, mopping at the blood on my cheeks and pressing the tissue against my throbbing nose. All in all, a fairly typical encounter with the Notional Man. The Droods have received several requests to terminate his existence with more than usual extreme prejudice on the grounds that he’s just too damned worrying, and we’re seriously considering it, if only for the challenge. The trouble with the Notional Man is that he’s pure and potent, as much a concept as anything else, and totally beyond any human capacity to understand or manipulate. And who wants a god you can’t understand or appease and who doesn’t give a damn whether you worship him or not? — The Spy Who Haunted Me

I don’t know if he shows up in future books since I haven’t read them yet. But based purely on this book, that’s what is revealed about him.


Giving a bit more context, if needed, the reality of the Hungry Gods doesn’t just have very different rules, but higher rules of reality:

The Loathly Ones are, after all, merely the three-dimensional protrusions into our reality of much more powerful entities. The Many-Angled Ones, or Hungry Gods, come from a place where the rules of reality are very different…perhaps even superior to ours. If the Loathly Ones really are from a higher reality, so to speak, their presence might be enough to actually overwrite our natural laws with their own, though of course only in a limited way.

^ The Loathly Ones are a projection of the Hungry Gods, even having a sort of type-9 immortality, although I don’t think that’s relevant here. But continuing, through an archetype, Eddie, Molly, and Giles manage to go into this higher dimension, which Eddie describes as more real:

The new place hit me like a hammer, driving me to my knees. Just the weight of the world was so much more than I could stand. It was like being inside a ghoulville, only much more and far worse. The sky blazed with a fierce light, blindingly bright, as though the whole sky was a sun. The air was packed with a hundred scents, so rich and foul and intense that they fought to fill my head. Sounds everywhere, sharp and cutting, deep and disturbing, shuddering through my flesh and reverberating in my bones, as though someone was scraping their nails down my soul. I hugged myself tightly to keep from flying apart. I looked down to save myself from the incandescent sky, and the ground beneath me heaved and squirmed, covered with overcomplicated shapes that might have been vegetation or insects or something else entirely. There was so much detail my eyes watered, trying to cope with it all. Everything in this new world beat with life, as if even the ground and the stones were alive and aware, everything pulsating with an appalling aggressive vitality. There was movement all around me, swift and sharp, as though nothing here ever rested, even for a moment. Welcome to the higher dimension. Welcome to the greater world. Welcome to the home of the Hungry Gods. It was all I could do not to puke. I felt as much as saw Molly fall to her knees beside me, shaking and shuddering from the shock of the transition. I grabbed blindly for her, and she grabbed me, and we clung tightly together for comfort. Overpowered by a reality and a world we were never equipped to deal with. In this higher dimension, everything was just too big, too real, too insanely complicated. We’d have been lost if it hadn’t been for Giles Deathstalker. Just as he’d said, his experience of surviving alien worlds gave him enough of an edge to help him cope. He crouched beside us, speaking calmly and soothingly, his voice coming clearly to us as the only sane and normal thing in this new existence.

They can only stand being in the realm of the Hungry Gods because they brought a bit of “their world” with them, like an apparent protective bubble:

“As long as the gateway remains open, and we stick close to it, we bring some of our world here with us,” said Molly. “Just like on the Damnation Way. It… insulates us, from the full force of the experience.” “Well thank the good God for that,” I said. “I really don’t think I could cope with the full-on experience. It’s like everything here has been cranked up to eleven.”

The Hungry Gods exist outside space and time:

The Loathly Ones come from somewhere else, Outside of space and time as we understand them. They have no physical presence in our world, so to survive here they have to invade a body, mentally as well as physically. Preferably human, but not always. When a Loathly One invades, or infects, a human body it eats or corrupts or drives out the soul, opinions differ, and inhabits the remaining husk.

They wanted to be gods on earth. So they made one more deal, with what we now know as the Loathly Ones, who in turn introduced the Kandarians to the Invaders. Very powerful Beings, from outside space and time. And that was the Kandarians’ first mistake.

Well, there are other quotes, like them being beyond the three dimensions, beyond human comprehension, etc., but I don’t think it’s necessary to post those; I believe the ones above are enough.

 

[Rutæhh]

bump

 

[Quasar002]

Bump

 

[Quasar002]

Bump

 

[Rutæhh]

Greenverse is never seeing 1-A

 

[Quasar002]

Greenverse is never seeing 1-A

If I’m not mistaken, there are already three votes from the team agreeing with 1-A, and even high 1-A, for God. Shouldn’t that already be applied? Perhaps the matters regarding dimensions could be left for another time, since they don’t seem to be going anywhere.

 

[Rutæhh]

ill contact Ant about it later to see if that is fine

 

[Quasar002]

Bump