Mega Man Battle Network & Star Force Tier Revision

[Maestro_Churches]

This is a thread with the purpose of updating the current power levels of the characters from the Mega Man Battle Network and Mega Man Star Force series. It will cover the current justifications of their tier, what needs to be changed and some minor additions.

Current Justification​

The top tier characters are placed as 2-C (Low Multiverse level), and the justification comes from two profiles:

MegaMan.EXE (1):

(Defeated Gospel, whose existence began to warp and merge the Cyber World and the Real World together, and Alpha, who had absorbed Bass and was the previous incarnation of the Cyber World, The Cyber World is filled with countless stars and galaxies in a single portion of it, Mega Man also fought Duo.EXE, whose portion of the Cyber World is from the far off parts of the cosmos as he patrols the entire universe)

Gospel (2):

(Was created by and linked with the Radiation Program that merged the real world and the Cyberworld, together. The Cyberworld is a virtual universe that contains multiple stars and galaxies in it)

So, essentially, the 2-C feat comes from Gospel merging/warping the Cyber World and the Real World together, both of which are their own separate universes. However, I believe this justification is out of context with what actually happens in the game.

While it is true that Gospel was "warping" both worlds together, this has nothing to do with Attack Potency or cosmic level ranges. When considering that a character is multiversal (in this case), we are assuming that he has infinite power, by affecting several 4-D space-times, however, the distortion caused by Gospel's electromagnetic radiation is explicitly a finite radiation and energy, normally ten thousand times greater than normal, and being able to increase even more. This already contradicts the idea of the feat having infinite magnitudes, but that's the least of it, because the distortion caused by Gospel was only affecting a server inside a building, there's nothing about affecting the universe or anything like that. In context, Gospel, due to the radiation released by his bug nature, was affecting the real world through a server that was connected to him, this is why its prolonged exposure was dangerous and almost killed Lan (a normal human). This could be interpreted as a game metaphor for how excessive consumption of technology can have real-world consequences, but it's definitely not a multiversal or even universal feat.

Furthermore, the idea of Gospel possessing so much power that he could supposedly merge two universes is incoherent even within the series' narrative. Gospel is an incomplete Cybeast, and for reference, a developed Cybeast like Gregar and Falzar can shake the entire cyberworld with a roar, and this action in the real world is simply equivalent to damaging a city. This shows that Gospel's influence in the real world is limited, not something on a cosmic scale.

I propose that all characters from Battle Network should have their 2-C Tier completely removed.

New Justification​

There are only two "explicit" feats/statements that come into my mind related with Universal AP (Tier 3, not Tier 2) for Battle Network characters:

1. Alpha/Proto

The incarnation of the entire Cyber World, of the internet itself, and he was destined to consume it. The Cyber World is a universe, so this is a 3-A feat by default.

2. Dark Aura

It is said to be strong enough to make its user survive even if the entire Cyber World (Universe) was destroyed. This is 3-A durability.

One thing to note, though, is that in the Volume 9, chapter 46 ("The End!! The Proof MegaMan is MegaMan") of the MegaMan NT Warrior manga, Hub, with the help of SearchMan.EXE, managed to break Dark MegaMan.EXE's Dark Aura with his bare hands, after several hits giving his all. As such, this would be at least a 3-B feat for his base form, I believe.

The 2-C justification regarding Gospel's feat should be removed from all the profiles that it appears:

• MegaMan.EXE
• Bass.EXE
• Gospel

And replaced simply with 3-A, using either of both feats above (which are already in some profiles, but without links).

Star Force Scaling​

Now, regarding Star Force characters, all of them are placed as 4-B (Solar System level), which I think it's true if we just use the feats presented in that series. However, Rockman.EXE Operate Shooting Star shows that SF3 Geo Stelar fought against BN1 Hub, to the point where Hub struggled a lot to win, while Geo only lost because he was holding back to not kill his predecessor and screw up the timeline. There is no indication that BN3 Hub (the one who defeated Alpha, who is Universe level) is immeasurably or even much stronger than his BN1 self (who is clearly inferior to Geo), so I believe that all Star Force characters who scale to Geo (Rogue, Sirius, Apollo Flame, Cygnus Wing, Harp Note, and Acid Ace) should be 3-A as well.

This wiki apparently treats "lesser" or "weaker" characters as necessarily being levels below another character's full power. For example, the only Battle Network profiles who are not listed as 2-C are:

• Roll.EXE
• LaserMan.EXE
• Zero.EXE

Instead, those characters are given the 4-B rating Geo has. This doesn't make sense, because the fact that a character has a lower feat than another does not mean that he cannot scale to a higher level based on other factors. This would be the equivalent of saying that certain weaker Mega Man X/Zero/ZX characters should only cap at 4-B based on other lesser feats.

This is a double standard as well, since, for example, the justification of Roll.EXE's profile says this:

Attack Potency: Solar System level (Can keep up with MegaMan.EXE when fighting for sport)

But in Iris profile from Mega Man X4, her base form (who has no feats) is given the full scale of the MMX ratings (which is 2-C):

Attack Potency: Likely Low Multiverse level (She hasn't show any skills against enemies or Mavericks in combat, but shouldn't be weaker than other reploids and if not stronger than her brother)

This is a clear case where an Unknown rating would fit better, like with Dr. Weil's base form with no weapons. In Roll.EXE's case, while it is true that she doesn't fully scale to MegaMan.EXE and only fights him for "sport", she should still be somewhat comparable to him, not immeasurably below. If we accept him as 3-A, Roll.EXE could be, let's say, 3-B. Same with LaserMan.EXE.

Zero.EXE is clearly the most downplayed here, since his own profile says that he fought against MegaMan.EXE, but for some reason he is only 4-B (?). Zero.EXE clearly scales to him, not only that, but his energy source (Zero Virus) spread through the entire Cyber World, meaning that his power has Universal range, thus, his Attack Potency being comparable to someone (Hub) who defeated a Universal threat (Alpha) is not inconceivable.

OVER-1​

As a crossover character, I think his "Base" and "With MegaMan.EXE's powers" keys should be removed, and simply keep him at 2-C based on scaling with Mega Man X.

Conclusion​

• All profiles from Battle Network and Star Force, with the exception of Lan Hikari, should be changed to 3-A (Universe level).
• Roll.EXE and LaserMan.EXE are potentially the only characters who don't fully scale to this, a 3-B (Multi-Galaxy level) rating should be fine for both.
• Iris' Base Form should be changed to Unknown.
• Zero.EXE should be granted Universal range for reasons above.
• OVER-1 should have his keys removed.

 

[AlloyAmi]

battle network profiles are severely outdated and i have plans to greatly downgrade them that i have been long procrastinating on.

even the evidence for the cyberworld being a universe is faulty and ive worked on calcing its actual size (which makes the feats such as the dark aura scaling around large planet)

i completely agree with removing gospels feat, its very clear hax by radiation which i also addressed on my wip blog which has my general plans and views for the higher end scaling of the series (though i have to add the shaking feat ill talk about later)

i disagree with using alpha as a main scaling feat, because its the "internet" as in it establishes connections with every device to become essentially the foundation of the cyberworld itself, but it alone without any established connections is very clearly no where near that size normally. the consuming feat is also overtime (in like a week iirc) but it overall it would still scale thanks to bass' earth break sbeing able to one shot the dark aura which was stated to be able of taking the obliteration of the entire cyberworld.

alternate medias such as manga and anime arent canon and should not be included on the profiles period. this is made clear both in book and interviews along with x dive further confirmming the entire multiverse only consists of games with interviews even using this to explain why a certain manga doesnt appear in xdive when asked about it.

i also agree with the star force stuff, theres plans to make them much higher then bn stuff with the series lore wise even having stuff above anything from that era as well, and using the crossover stuff gets pretty circular for both sides and to a degree kinda doesnt work for bn but for now yeah geo should scale to anything from bn. however regarding this scaling, imo pre bn3 stuff should not scale to universal as exe doesnt start scaling to that stuff until the end of 3 and he gets utterly stomped by bass in the mid game. even in 1 and 2 alone he gets stronger throughout the games to warrent multiple keys for single games alone, but again this was all just planned to be done in the future.

overall id actually suggest the tiers of these feats are actually tier 6-5 (though my calc wasnt evalutated so id need that checked too) and i havent addressed everything yet but if we wanna just remove these for now to just be 3-a and save these lower stats for a future revision im fine with that.

regarding 1-2 + network transmission platformer scaling, in 1 i think he might just be tier 9 until hub bat scaling which beat the life virus which can shake the cyberworld in the platformer which based on the sizes i got would be around small country but if assuming its a universe its like 4-a/3-c or something

tldr on how i think the cyberworld is treated for the future, its more of this bubble around the planet that connects all devices together up to satellites, instead of an actual universal structure, several statements directly treat as such and the backgrounds of the locations are just backgrounds meant to go with the theme of the cyberworld which is a very consistent thing in the series and they are essentially no different then a literal looping wallpaper background.

extra: tbh i dont know why roll cant just scale to base exe himself, even in 1 alone you get her data throughout the game to help him and it gets progressively stronger and its clearly competent to be used in combat and while hes obviously the protag and a much more skilled fighter i dont think theres this insane gap in their bases in terms of ap throughout the series.

final take aways:

• Remove Gospel's feat + downgrade the tiers: Agree
• New justification: Alpha stuff: Disagree
• New justifcation: Dark aura stuff: Agree
• MegaMan NT Warrior manga scaling: Disagree
• Starforce scaling: needs handling in the future but agree but I generally Agree, starforce should absolutely scale to and above bn and theres much more reasoning then anything on this thread that will be discussed eventually.
• Roll.EXE scaling: generally Agree, but she should just fully scale to his base tier.
• Iris stuff: not a major part but she clearly has a power that combines with colonel to become that ultimate reploid they were originally meant to be so she should realistically still be able to downscale the main scaling, along with navigators being shown to fight later on.
• Zero.EXE stuff: Agree with range upgrade, Disagree with AP upgrade because again they dont scale to that until the very end of 3, and network transmission is after 1 but before 2.
• Over-1 stuff: Agree

 

[Maestro_Churches]

even the evidence for the cyberworld being a universe is faulty and ive worked on calcing its actual size (which makes the feats such as the dark aura scaling around large planet)

I actually don't see how that is possible, given the fact that it has more statements on being a literal universe that I never saw this wiki using. But I don't see the point in arguing that for now.

i disagree with using alpha as a main scaling feat, because its the "internet" as in it establishes connections with every device to become essentially the foundation of the cyberworld itself, but it alone without any established connections is very clearly no where near that size normally. the consuming feat is also overtime (in like a week iirc) but it overall it would still scale thanks to bass' earth break sbeing able to one shot the dark aura which was stated to be able of taking the obliteration of the entire cyberworld.

Actually, yes, it's a overtime feat, but I count it regardless because Alpha becomes one with the Cyber World while consuming it (hence his Omnipresence), so much so that the narrative says you would need a Freezing Program to freeze him along with the entire Net (meaning he already covered it by that point).

alternate medias such as manga and anime arent canon and should not be included on the profiles period. this is made clear both in book and interviews along with x dive further confirmming the entire multiverse only consists of games with interviews even using this to explain why a certain manga doesnt appear in xdive when asked about it.

Agree, but seeing how this wiki uses Hub's feat of crossing the Cyber World in the manga, I assumed it would be valid to use that example (him destroying the Dark Aura).

Iris stuff: not a major part but she clearly has a power that combines with colonel to become that ultimate reploid they were originally meant to be so she should realistically still be able to downscale the main scaling, along with navigators being shown to fight later on.

I don't recall anything about that. The other points are not too relevant to reply.

Btw, I think some mods and other experts on the verse could help evaluating this thread as well.

 

[AlloyAmi]

I actually don't see how that is possible, given the fact that it has more statements on being a literal universe that I never saw this wiki using. But I don't see the point in arguing that for now.

can you send them? no anime or manga, game canon sources only. and theres several narrative statements that treat it as a space that specifically just envelops the planet up to satellites and connects all technological devices in literal irl distance to make this connected space which is a major part of the game. i really dont see how it would be a literal universe with what the games present about it nor have i found any statements throughout my deep searches, and ive searched DEEP. the most i found was a mistranslation regarding an anime movie on a website that the japanese website version doesnt state at all and actually goes with the lower interpretation. and the battle network 5 statement is also mistranslation that i also addressed in my blog so you can skip that one.

Actually, yes, it's a overtime feat, but I count it regardless because Alpha becomes one with the Cyber World while consuming it (hence his Omnipresence), so much so that the narrative says you would need a Freezing Program to freeze him along with the entire Net (meaning he already covered it by that point).

we still dont fight it in that state nor use the giga freeze against it. and its stated that there were far less devices connected as it literally was the alpha of the net before it reached the current state it is now. they do say it could do it again but at most id only include the potential eating part not the becoming one with part. the freezing program is in case something goes wrong at the end of a very worst case scenario.

Agree, but seeing how this wiki uses Hub's feat of crossing the Cyber World in the manga, I assumed it would be valid to use that example (him destroying the Dark Aura).

outdated profile that still has the old composite aspects of it from years ago, with that feat also being outdated calc wise as well. a former member was making a sandbox removing it but they have moved on from this community. profiles so outdated iirc tier 4 scaling was already meant to be removed, it just never got applied.

I don't recall anything about that.

the lore behind iris and colonel is that repliforce was trying to make an ultimate fighting reploid but their data being connected didnt work out so they split them into 2 reploids, colonel, and iris. their COMBINED power makes their full power which we see iris use in her fight to become stronger but also corrupts her and messes her up due to their data incompadibility, but overall her own individual power is still important to reach this even stronger then colonel state. xdive takes a view on what if repliforce was succesful in making them a single reploid, and the result is iris another. navigators being able to fight just comes from x8.

 

[Maestro_Churches]

can you send them? no anime or manga, game canon sources only.

The Wave World from Star Force is essentially the Cyberworld 200 years in the future, which operates with the same function but using EM Waves instead of computers. So, I see no reason to consider it larger or smaller than BN's Cyberworld (it's the same structure but in different time periods).

In the page 83 of Mega Man Star Force Official Complete Works, Sirius' description tells us that he is able to connect to the Black Hole Server (which exists in the Cyberworld/Wave World), who is declared as the largest server in the universe. This is not a mistranslation as the original one says the same, using the kanji for "Universe" (宇宙):

FM星を狙う正体不明の存在。 宇宙最大と言われ あるブラックホールサーバーと接続することで、 無尽蔵のパワーを発揮する。

An unidentified entity targeting FM Planet. By connecting to a black hole server said to be the largest in the universe, it exhibits limitless power.

This description implies that the Wave World is a universe, because the Black Hole Server exists in it and is called the largest server in the universe. I could bring other arguments but this is not the main point of this thread.

and theres several narrative statements that treat it as a space that specifically just envelops the planet up to satellites and connects all technological devices in literal irl distance to make this connected space which is a major part of the game.

None of those limit the size of the Cyberworld. It's obviously connected to the planet's surface precisely because it was created by humans. The fact that its physical extension (cables, networks, etc.) surrounds the planet doesn't limit its interior structure, for example, since it's a virtual dimension.

and the battle network 5 statement is also mistranslation that i also addressed in my blog so you can skip that one.

I'm aware, but I would advise you to directly use screenshots from the game instead of a cropped reddit text. And yes, it doesn't say anything about "Universe".

we still dont fight it in that state nor use the giga freeze against it. and its stated that there were far less devices connected as it literally was the alpha of the net before it reached the current state it is now. they do say it could do it again but at most id only include the potential eating part not the becoming one with part. the freezing program is in case something goes wrong at the end of a very worst case scenario.

The point is not that the Giga Freeze wasn't used, but the implications of it being used: freeze Alpha, and by default the entire Net, meaning he already covered it by that point.

outdated profile that still has the old composite aspects of it from years ago, with that feat also being outdated calc wise as well. a former member was making a sandbox removing it but they have moved on from this community. profiles so outdated iirc tier 4 scaling was already meant to be removed, it just never got applied.

In the WIP you sent, you also use the manga to argue for the Cyberworld size, so I don't see why Hub's feat of breaking the Dark Aura can't be used as well. It's not a matter of "canonicity" by this point, but rather a coherent adaptation of the narrative from the souce material. Bass' EarthBreak, who is much stronger than Base Hub, can destroy the Dark Aura, so it makes sense that Hub, with the help of SearchMan.EXE and with several hits, can break it as well.

the lore behind iris and colonel is that repliforce was trying to make an ultimate fighting reploid but their data being connected didnt work out so they split them into 2 reploids, colonel, and iris. their COMBINED power makes their full power which we see iris use in her fight to become stronger but also corrupts her and messes her up due to their data incompadibility, but overall her own individual power is still important to reach this even stronger then colonel state. xdive takes a view on what if repliforce was succesful in making them a single reploid, and the result is iris another. navigators being able to fight just comes from x8.

I don't remember that. If it's true, then you can ignore the Iris section of this thread, but it would be better if her profile had scan(s) about that information to properly give her scale.

@Antvasima If I'm not being a bother, could you tag people who can help with evaluating this thread?

 

[AlloyAmi]

The Wave World from Star Force is essentially the Cyberworld 200 years in the future, which operates with the same function but using EM Waves instead of computers. So, I see no reason to consider it larger or smaller than BN's Cyberworld (it's the same structure but in different time periods).

yes lets scale the structure that outclassed the net so much that some people dont even know what it is and merely a thing left behind in history books. the wave world also is just a bunch em wave roads across the planet too, and the only reason its in space is because aliens like the fmians and other things in history already existed prior across space and really anything emitting em waves will have some form of wave road. the wave world that humans created and have access to should still be very much relatively bound to earth as it still serves the same purpose of connecting all devices and saying theirs spans the universe is outright contradictory on a narrative level as a massive plot point was how geos dad was lost in space in a space ship they could no longer track despite its remains still have working em wave technology. geo himself even almost got stranded and would have been without the help of all of his friends bonds leading the way back. i havent gotten too far into starforce as i only played the first game but from what ive seen, the farthest the wave road in specific would go is likely interplanetery with the outer astro wave but thats not even connected to earth as geo could only access it with a noise wave. apparently the earth struggles to fully connect to the standard astro wave thats only in the thermosphere. either way the net should NOT scale to the wave world roads range nor has it shown anything near the scale of the wave roads peak which is still disconnected from earth. youd need to prove its scale.

In the page 83 of Mega Man Star Force Official Complete Works, Sirius' description tells us that he is able to connect to the Black Hole Server (which exists in the Cyberworld/Wave World), who is declared as the largest server in the universe. This is not a mistranslation as the original one says the same, using the kanji for "Universe" (宇宙):

This description implies that the Wave World is a universe, because the Black Hole Server exists in it and is called the largest server in the universe. I could bring other arguments but this is not the main point of this thread.

youre just reading this wrong. this isnt saying its a universe at all, its saying its the biggest server IN the universe, aka its bigger then any other cyberworld and therefore upscaling anything seen before. not that its the size of a universe. too bad the collective cyberworld net isnt proven to be anything beyond what i suggested, and most individual devices comp spaces are like room sized, with dungeons still not being anything significantly higher.

and i do feel like this is a very relevant thing to bring up now because their entire scaling relies on this, and if we doing the tiering might as well address it now considering how the evidence used now is rather faulty as the statement used is mistranslated and the only other evidence is the meteor comp has cosmic bodies despite the fact that they arent real and just a background along with the fact that the meteor comp isnt even part of earths cyberworld and is something that came from god knows where space.

None of those limit the size of the Cyberworld. It's obviously connected to the planet's surface precisely because it was created by humans. The fact that its physical extension (cables, networks, etc.) surrounds the planet doesn't limit its interior structure, for example, since it's a virtual dimension.

except it would because the main cyberworld/net is connected in real world distance, thats why in the net you can reach a certain area and be connected to the comp space of someone elses address. the wave road proves this was the intention more then ever. the dungeon in bn1 in the school most clearly shows this. when mega man gets frozen in a specific area, lan has to go to a specific area in the real world thats messed up to save him. even at the start of the game we see all the net navis aligned in desks in the same real world distance of the actual students. even to unlock a door lan had to go to a specific area. we see it align here yet again. when lan jacks into the bus to fight colorman, the area they get in even resembles the space of the bus compared to the bigger space that represents the street. even saying they all are seperate internal areas, the internal areas of specific object arent even big at all and a majority are just a platform. in fact theres even a statement in a guidebook calling them room sized. the main net connecting everything that represents the planet in real world distance is unironically way more impressive then any comp space weve ever seen besides the black hole server.

I'm aware, but I would advise you to directly use screenshots from the game instead of a cropped reddit text. And yes, it doesn't say anything about "Universe".

the screenshot is from a full text dump of every single game that i can source and taken from my own post in r/translator that i dont link cuz this site blocks reddit links in wikitext. getting japanese screenshots from the game itself also isnt something thats easy though i know that specific screenshot is rather early in the game so ill use that one for further reference.

The point is not that the Giga Freeze wasn't used, but the implications of it being used: freeze Alpha, and by default the entire Net, meaning he already covered it by that point.

again, its IF something went wrong thats something that could happen, the alpha we fight is not in this same bloated stated that ate the cyberworld itself so i wouldnt use it to justify exes ap.

In the WIP you sent, you also use the manga to argue for the Cyberworld size, so I don't see why Hub's feat of breaking the Dark Aura can't be used as well. It's not a matter of "canonicity" by this point, but rather a coherent adaptation of the narrative from the souce material. Bass' EarthBreak, who is much stronger than Base Hub, can destroy the Dark Aura, so it makes sense that Hub, with the help of SearchMan.EXE and with several hits, can break it as well.

thats regarding the infamous running feat to be recalced in the future because thats such a major feat the series is associated with, but i also directly say its NOT canon in the exact screenshot. either way thats for the eventual manga profile and that feat would not apply to canon. i just thought to include it so i wouldnt forget in the future but it also just goes to show how they also chose to directly adapt it.

the manga feat is not canon so it shouldnt be used period.

i also dont know why youre arguing this because in battle network 3 you literally scale to and defeat a stronger bass at the end of the game and can directly tank his earth break attack. thats clear cut dark aura scaling from the actual canon.

@Antvasima If I'm not being a bother, could you tag people who can help with evaluating this thread?

you can tag knowledgable members yourself here, and message mods/admins on their message wall. this thread has been seen i just think im the only one who engaged with it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

If I'm not being a bother, could you tag people who can help with evaluating this thread?

Normal users can't tag others. If you have people you want to comment, I can tag them though.

 

[AlloyAmi]

Normal users can't tag others. If you have people you want to comment, I can tag them though.

o i thought it was just staff you couldnt tag. nvm then. you can tag pretty much any mod or admin to check this though.

 

[Maestro_Churches]

yes lets scale the structure that outclassed the net so much that some people dont even know what it is and merely a thing left behind in history books.

The only thing this scene shows are two kids who don't know what the internet is. This scene doesn't say or imply anything about Cyberworld being smaller; I have no idea where you got that from. "These random kids don't know what Cyberworld is, therefore it's smaller". Non sequitur.

the wave world also is just a bunch em wave roads across the planet too, and the only reason its in space is because aliens like the fmians and other things in history already existed prior across space and really anything emitting em waves will have some form of wave road. the wave world that humans created and have access to should still be very much relatively bound to earth as it still serves the same purpose of connecting all devices and saying theirs spans the universe is outright contradictory on a narrative level as a massive plot point was how geos dad was lost in space in a space ship they could no longer track despite its remains still have working em wave technology. geo himself even almost got stranded and would have been without the help of all of his friends bonds leading the way back. i havent gotten too far into starforce as i only played the first game but from what ive seen, the farthest the wave road in specific would go is likely interplanetery with the outer astro wave but thats not even connected to earth as geo could only access it with a noise wave. apparently the earth struggles to fully connect to the standard astro wave thats only in the thermosphere. either way the net should NOT scale to the wave world roads range nor has it shown anything near the scale of the wave roads peak which is still disconnected from earth. youd need to prove its scale.

This entire argument makes the mistake of assuming that because Wave World is a universe, it shouldn't just cover the planet (and Geo's father shouldn't be lost in outer space), except that it's a flawed argument for the same reason Cyberworld isn't a "continental" structure or something: it's literally an interior structure that doesn't properly exist in physical reality. Its connection point is on the planet, but its size isn't limited to it. It's more akin to a pocket dimension, like we see in several other Cyberworlds of the franchise. Zero Space from X5, for example, is a spatial distortion whose connection point is on the very earth (as we see it merging with the real world in Zero Space 1), but it doesn't outright limit its inner size. The Cyberworld itself has a point of connection to a parallel world/universe in the Boktai crossover.

youre just reading this wrong. this isnt saying its a universe at all, its saying its the biggest server IN the universe, aka its bigger then any other cyberworld and therefore upscaling anything seen before. not that its the size of a universe. too bad the collective cyberworld net isnt proven to be anything beyond what i suggested, and most individual devices comp spaces are like room sized, with dungeons still not being anything significantly higher.

The Cyberworld itself has multiple servers, I don't see why the Wave World wouldn't, but I do admit that it's not a straightforward proof. If we treat the Wave World and Black Hole Server as completely unrelated, then you still need to deal with the fact that the Black Hole Server spans through space-time itself on a universal scale due to being capable of saving entities in different points of time from parallel worlds which are different futures (outcomes) entirely. Unironically similar on how the BN Cyberworld connects different universes.

and i do feel like this is a very relevant thing to bring up now because their entire scaling relies on this, and if we doing the tiering might as well address it now considering how the evidence used now is rather faulty as the statement used is mistranslated and the only other evidence is the meteor comp has cosmic bodies despite the fact that they arent real and just a background along with the fact that the meteor comp isnt even part of earths cyberworld and is something that came from god knows where space.

I say it's not relevant because the point of this thread is to change the current tiers based on the 3-A interpretation. Any counter arguments against this thread should be made only against the points I presented, instead of bringing an unrelated topic like "below planet level cyberworld". As you said: "i havent addressed everything yet but if we wanna just remove these for now to just be 3-a and save these lower stats for a future revision im fine with that"

Debating this is delaying the discussion.

except it would because the main cyberworld/net is connected in real world distance, thats why in the net you can reach a certain area and be connected to the comp space of someone elses address. the wave road proves this was the intention more then ever. the dungeon in bn1 in the school most clearly shows this. when mega man gets frozen in a specific area, lan has to go to a specific area in the real world thats messed up to save him. even at the start of the game we see all the net navis aligned in desks in the same real world distance of the actual students. even to unlock a door lan had to go to a specific area. we see it align here yet again. when lan jacks into the bus to fight colorman, the area they get in even resembles the space of the bus compared to the bigger space that represents the street. even saying they all are seperate internal areas, the internal areas of specific object arent even big at all and a majority are just a platform. in fact theres even a statement in a guidebook calling them room sized. the main net connecting everything that represents the planet in real world distance is unironically way more impressive then any comp space weve ever seen besides the black hole server.

Being an interconnected network around the planet, it's obvious that certain areas are only accessible through specific points of connection, which once again does not speak directly about the overall size of the cyberworld, as explained before.

thats regarding the infamous running feat to be recalced in the future because thats such a major feat the series is associated with, but i also directly say its NOT canon in the exact screenshot. either way thats for the eventual manga profile and that feat would not apply to canon. i just thought to include it so i wouldnt forget in the future but it also just goes to show how they also chose to directly adapt it.

the manga feat is not canon so it shouldnt be used period.

i also dont know why youre arguing this because in battle network 3 you literally scale to and defeat a stronger bass at the end of the game and can directly tank his earth break attack. thats clear cut dark aura scaling from the actual canon.

If you only use it for a separate manga profile, then it's fine. I do find strange, though, that manga feats are conveniently used like Cyber Peacock erasing the Cyberspace in the manga, used to justify his AP in the game.

 

[Maestro_Churches]

Normal users can't tag others. If you have people you want to comment, I can tag them though.

Knowledgable members and supporters, or admins (I don't know them), should be fine.

 

[Steve1775]

Damn, so the death battle outcome is completely wrong?

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Starter_Pack @DarkDragonMedeus I was asked to tag you

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Damn, so the death battle outcome is completely wrong?

 

[Steve1775]

So what you're trying to say is volnutt should have stomped?

 

[AlloyAmi]

The only thing this scene shows are two kids who don't know what the internet is. This scene doesn't say or imply anything about Cyberworld being smaller; I have no idea where you got that from. "These random kids don't know what Cyberworld is, therefore it's smaller". Non sequitur.

yeah because it literally doesnt EXIST anymore, its a thing of the past thats merely left in history books which was my entire point. it was completely outclassed and once again the cyberworld has not shown the range of the wave road at all.

This entire argument makes the mistake of assuming that because Wave World is a universe, it shouldn't just cover the planet (and Geo's father shouldn't be lost in outer space), except that it's a flawed argument for the same reason Cyberworld isn't a "continental" structure or something: it's literally an interior structure that doesn't properly exist in physical reality. Its connection point is on the planet, but its size isn't limited to it. It's more akin to a pocket dimension, like we see in several other Cyberworlds of the franchise. Zero Space from X5, for example, is a spatial distortion whose connection point is on the very earth (as we see it merging with the real world in Zero Space 1), but it doesn't outright limit its inner size. The Cyberworld itself has a point of connection to a parallel world/universe in the Boktai crossover.

you ignored multiple of my arguments regarding why its size would be limited and the building sized server gospel was merging also further shows how it continues to be parallel in size. most things are either parallel or extremely small inside technology, and main timeline stuff is shown to be much different and has actual reasoning to be far larger and impressive in scale so i wouldnt use it to compare. a rift connecting 2 realms isnt proof a higher size either, its just a dimensional hole.

The Cyberworld itself has multiple servers, I don't see why the Wave World wouldn't, but I do admit that it's not a straightforward proof. If we treat the Wave World and Black Hole Server as completely unrelated, then you still need to deal with the fact that the Black Hole Server spans through space-time itself on a universal scale due to being capable of saving entities in different points of time from parallel worlds which are different futures (outcomes) entirely. Unironically similar on how the BN Cyberworld connects different universes.

i don't really see why the first point is relevant. and yeah nothing scals to the black hole server, its literally stated in your own scan you provided earlier, its the biggest in the universe, so nothing should scale to it. this just says it stored his data which is a very common thing in the series used to bring the chracters back from before they were defeated and geo already established a connection to his timeline to the another one in 2. we know their data can linger around and travel even after destruction, but it really wouldnt make much sense for the black hole server to be that big. either way like this doesnt affect anyone besides geo so once again not important.

I say it's not relevant because the point of this thread is to change the current tiers based on the 3-A interpretation. Any counter arguments against this thread should be made only against the points I presented, instead of bringing an unrelated topic like "below planet level cyberworld". As you said: "i havent addressed everything yet but if we wanna just remove these for now to just be 3-a and save these lower stats for a future revision im fine with that"

Debating this is delaying the discussion.

i later realized it doesnt matter because meteor comp isnt usable anyway so i dont even have to finish that part of the blog. You need a scan to prove the cyberworld is a universe, and there is none. this interpretation just isnt even valid as a lowball anymore without evidence provided so i now believe this is very crucial to address.

Being an interconnected network around the planet, it's obvious that certain areas are only accessible through specific points of connection, which once again does not speak directly about the overall size of the cyberworld, as explained before.

again ignored my points against this showing a direct correlation while WITHIN the cyberworld to reality and once again nothing proves the cyberworld as big. if anything the areas inside some specific devices vary depending on how small they are they can likely become smaller like actual data like when they go inside a clock, a gamecube, a tv, a vase, etc, lunch stand. other areas, like the street and school dungeon directly show it correlating to the actual real world, along with the entire net itself which should be bigger then them all. even saying they are their internal spaces that arent smaller, again see the scan calling them ROOM sized.

If you only use it for a separate manga profile, then it's fine. I do find strange, though, that manga feats are conveniently used like Cyber Peacock erasing the Cyberspace in the manga, used to justify his AP in the game.

they arent, i even debunked cyber peacock scaling entirely offsite nor is this feat listed on actual pages. only thing that blogs used for is for size stuff. writer of that blog just included it in the past and didnt remove it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have my own thoughts about Battle Network cosmology scaling, but I'd prefer to save that for later. Though I do agree that our current justifications/descriptions for the current ratings are kind of weak. Neutral on the EXE vs Geo Stellar scaling for now.

 

[TheHedgememe]

Can't offer much in the realm of Battle Network/Star Force scaling, but as a certified X fan:

But in Iris profile from Mega Man X4, her base form (who has no feats) is given the full scale of the MMX ratings (which is 2-C):

Iris' Base Form should be changed to Unknown.

I can see why you make the argument. Iris herself doesn't fight until she absorbs Colonel core, in which she gets the armor form and all. However, as Ami said:

Iris stuff: not a major part but she clearly has a power that combines with colonel to become that ultimate reploid they were originally meant to be so she should realistically still be able to downscale the main scaling, along with navigators being shown to fight later on.

The navigators in X8 are clearly shown to be able to fight, despite combat not being their primary occupation, and Iris able to combine with Colonel. I think Alia in X6 is even implied to have killed Blizzard Wolfang in the past, but I'd have to be fact-checked.

Anyway, I guess maybe also since X DiVE is a form of supporting canon now, you could make the argument that base Iris' Hunter Program being able to fight and use various abilities may resemble how she actually would have fought in the canon considering other characters that originated from X also use actual abilities from the games in their arsenals. I think this DiVE argument in particular might be a stretch but I thought it could maybe be a serviceable explanation.

Plus, in Iris' case, a "likely" or "possibly" rating doesn't automatically mean she just flat-out is 2-C. The whole point of those ratings are to speculate in the case that there isn't sufficient enough evidence to back up an otherwise convincing argument. Since a majority of other reploids in the verse (dating as far back as even X1) are 2-C, I argue it's also logical to assume that Iris could also be 2-C in base.

Man. Before I found out about the potential MMX upgrades and their arguments, I would not have ever argued for potential low multiversal Iris. But here we are, lol.

 

[Maestro_Churches]

yeah because it literally doesnt EXIST anymore, its a thing of the past thats merely left in history books which was my entire point. it was completely outclassed and once again the cyberworld has not shown the range of the wave road at all.

The fact that it's something that's been surpassed (technologically speaking) doesn't say anything concrete about its size being inferior. Your "evidence" doesn't say that anywhere; you're just making it up.

you ignored multiple of my arguments regarding why its size would be limited and the building sized server gospel was merging also further shows how it continues to be parallel in size. most things are either parallel or extremely small inside technology

They are not limitations, because... they don't even address the entire Cyberworld, just certain areas and points of connection, which is why I used as an example the main timeline below.

and main timeline stuff is shown to be much different and has actual reasoning to be far larger and impressive in scale so i wouldnt use it to compare.

This is a red herring. No one is talking about the main timeline being larger/more impressive or not. You said the BN Cyberworld is "small" because some of its points of connection are small areas in the earth (like rooms), and I simply used the exact same logic for other cyber realms: the Zero Space 1 in X5 has a point of connection in the earth's surface, does it make planet-sized or below? No.

a rift connecting 2 realms isnt proof a higher size either, its just a dimensional hole.

Of course, it isn't, I used it to prove that the Cyberworld can have points of connection that do not necessarily are small and equivalent to its entire size, like you are wrongly suggesting. Ironically, the mere fact that a space-time rift is present in Cyberworld, and that such rift is treated as a parallel world independent of Cyberworld itself, should prove by default that Cyberworld is its own parallel world (universe).

i don't really see why the first point is relevant. and yeah nothing scals to the black hole server, its literally stated in your own scan you provided earlier, its the biggest in the universe, so nothing should scale to it. this just says it stored his data which is a very common thing in the series used to bring the chracters back from before they were defeated and geo already established a connection to his timeline to the another one in 2. we know their data can linger around and travel even after destruction, but it really wouldnt make much sense for the black hole server to be that big. either way like this doesnt affect anyone besides geo so once again not important.

You are ignoring the fact that it is only because of the Black Hole Server that Sirius could store Apollo Flame's data from another timeline/parallel world, meaning the BHS has its own space-time continuum and is therefore a universe.

again ignored my points against this showing a direct correlation while WITHIN the cyberworld to reality and once again nothing proves the cyberworld as big. if anything the areas inside some specific devices vary depending on how small they are they can likely become smaller like actual data like when they go inside a clock, a gamecube, a tv, a vase, etc, lunch stand. other areas, like the street and school dungeon directly show it correlating to the actual real world, along with the entire net itself which should be bigger then them all. even saying they are their internal spaces that arent smaller, again see the scan calling them ROOM sized.

I didn't ignore them, but none of them really address the complete structure of Cyberworld, and using the fact that one of these areas is the size of a room as a basis to try to prove the size of the entire structure is ridiculous. But if we want to delve deeper, then answer:

- Why are there galaxies and black holes in Cyberworld, like the DarkGalaxy?

- Why is BN's Cyberworld treated as a parallel to X4's Cyberspace, which is an event level and therefore a DeepLog (universe)?

 

[Maestro_Churches]

The navigators in X8 are clearly shown to be able to fight, despite combat not being their primary occupation, and Iris able to combine with Colonel. I think Alia in X6 is even implied to have killed Blizzard Wolfang in the past, but I'd have to be fact-checked.

Anyway, I guess maybe also since X DiVE is a form of supporting canon now, you could make the argument that base Iris' Hunter Program being able to fight and use various abilities may resemble how she actually would have fought in the canon considering other characters that originated from X also use actual abilities from the games in their arsenals. I think this DiVE argument in particular might be a stretch but I thought it could maybe be a serviceable explanation.

Plus, in Iris' case, a "likely" or "possibly" rating doesn't automatically mean she just flat-out is 2-C. The whole point of those ratings are to speculate in the case that there isn't sufficient enough evidence to back up an otherwise convincing argument. Since a majority of other reploids in the verse (dating as far back as even X1) are 2-C, I argue it's also logical to assume that Iris could also be 2-C in base.

Man. Before I found out about the potential MMX upgrades and their arguments, I would not have ever argued for potential low multiversal Iris. But here we are, lol.

Thanks for the clarification. Still, it would be better if there were scans in her profile to justify her base form being 2-C, especially since the profile says she's stronger than Colonel, which doesn't make sense.

 

[AlloyAmi]

The fact that it's something that's been surpassed (technologically speaking) doesn't say anything concrete about its size being inferior. Your "evidence" doesn't say that anywhere; you're just making it up.

i dont need to prove a negative, you need to prove the technoligically inferior thing that has NO showings of going beyond satellites can scale to the full scope of the wave road (which is still again at similar limitations at the mere thermosphere (which is STILL in earths atmosphere) that you also ignored)

They are not limitations, because... they don't even address the entire Cyberworld, just certain areas and points of connection, which is why I used as an example the main timeline below.

the entire cyberworld is a space that encompasses the planet and distance between devices in literal distance, i directly explained multiple examples that directly show this both in dungeons and the net itswelf and how it connects to addresses. starforce AGAIN proves this is the case with the more technologically advanced upgrade that replaced it which is why the way world is LITERALLY a road of em waves that hover above the planet but are invisible to people to transfer data. thats why waveholes are literally at the actual location of the device itself and you physically need to travel to the location that device is at to enter its wavehole. why else would you need to travel around the world to fix the net in specific areas in 4, why else is the address of a location at the literal location of the device. the way the net works is computers linking together to make the collective space. tell me what computer is connected to earth and humans goes beyond satellites in the bn series.

This is a red herring. No one is talking about the main timeline being larger/more impressive or not. You said the BN Cyberworld is "small" because some of its points of connection are small areas in the earth (like rooms), and I simply used the exact same logic for other cyber realms: the Zero Space 1 in X5 has a point of connection in the earth's surface, does it make planet-sized or below? No.

bad example, zero space isnt meant to be parallel to the earth nor used in that way in terms of lore. its a random dimension where a pocket was opened randomly in the real world as the worlds were semi merged together. cyberspace is meant to correlate with the earth and connect all devices in literal distance. small comp spaces are proven yet again to be extremely small with the room statement.

Of course, it isn't, I used it to prove that the Cyberworld can have points of connection that do not necessarily are small and equivalent to its entire size, like you are wrongly suggesting. Ironically, the mere fact that a space-time rift is present in Cyberworld, and that such rift is treated as a parallel world independent of Cyberworld itself, should prove by default that Cyberworld is its own parallel world (universe).

just because a rift goes to another dimension doesnt mean both dimensions scale to each other, thats not even a natural cyberspace connection in the series, its a rift to an entirely different verse to explain a random crossover. this is like saying any rift opened to another pocket dimension should automatically scale to the dimension its being opened from. theres a rift that appears in starforce 1 from the cyberworld as well, is that tiny little comp space inside a DOGHOUSE a universe too? this is extremely flawed logic and your scan doesnt prove what youre saying at all.

You are ignoring the fact that it is only because of the Black Hole Server that Sirius could store Apollo Flame's data from another timeline/parallel world, meaning the BHS has its own space-time continuum and is therefore a universe.

black hole server even doesnt make sense to encompass everything otherwise why wouldnt it be relevant from the start. geo established a connection to the parallel world in 2, and you know their data forms can just physically travel after defeat right? this has been a thing since even the first battle network game. either way this is way too vague nor makes sense to encompass everything, and once again, nothing scales to the black hole server so this is literal an irrelevant point, the literal scan used for it makes it very clear that its much bigger then anything else. not even meteor g can compare to it.

I didn't ignore them, but none of them really address the complete structure of Cyberworld, and using the fact that one of these areas is the size of a room as a basis to try to prove the size of the entire structure is ridiculous. But if we want to delve deeper, then answer:

except you did and adressed none of the stuff showing them in parallel and none of the other comp spaces that would be "independent" are shown to be big either with me also providing scans proving them small even by starforce era.

- Why are there galaxies and black holes in Cyberworld, like the DarkGalaxy?

i dont see why the black hole matters because its not big so that doesnt really add anything in terms of size. dark galaxy isnt literally a galaxy, its clearly just named off the evil organization nebula, and in japan its even called dark nebula not dark galaxy which the same wiki scan you sent says. they even call the final boss nebula grey a "dark star at the center" even though it very clearly isnt anything near a star. these terms are just meant to go with the organizations space imagery with their names and arent meant to be literal.

Why is BN's Cyberworld treated as a parallel to X4's Cyberspace, which is an event level and therefore a DeepLog (universe)?

not what it says at all, they just say it looks similar because they are obviously both data worlds.

 

[Maestro_Churches]

i dont need to prove a negative

You don't even understand the meaning of discursive responsibility and the burden of proof (onus probandi). The one who asserts something is the one who must demonstrate it. By declaring that "Cyberworld is unknown to some people because it is something of the past, therefore it is smaller in size", the one making this assertion assumes the responsibility of proving its content. Otherwise, we are faced with what is known as the "reverse burden of proof" fallacy (onus probandi inversionis), a dishonest maneuver to avoid the rational justification of a judgment.

you need to prove the technoligically inferior thing that has NO showings of going beyond satellites can scale to the full scope of the wave road (which is still again at similar limitations at the mere thermosphere (which is STILL in earths atmosphere) that you also ignored)

On the contrary, the burden of proving that something "technologically inferior" necessarily has a smaller physical size lies squarely with you. Demanding that I prove that Cyberworld's extent can reach space, as a way to deflect all other arguments about its universal size, is also dishonest, simply nitpicking.

the entire cyberworld is a space that encompasses the planet and distance between devices in literal distance, i directly explained multiple examples that directly show this both in dungeons and the net itswelf and how it connects to addresses. starforce AGAIN proves this is the case with the more technologically advanced upgrade that replaced it which is why the way world is LITERALLY a road of em waves that hover above the planet but are invisible to people to transfer data. thats why waveholes are literally at the actual location of the device itself and you physically need to travel to the location that device is at to enter its wavehole. why else would you need to travel around the world to fix the net in specific areas in 4, why else is the address of a location at the literal location of the device. the way the net works is computers linking together to make the collective space. tell me what computer is connected to earth and humans goes beyond satellites in the bn series.

There's no point in continuing this; you use examples of human characters interacting on the planet as if this were to limit Cyberworld, even though it's extremely obvious because Cyberworld was created by humans on Earth, and it's a network of real-time events that occur there. Again, it's not a physical dimension, and the fact that interactions within the planet can modify its structure is an information that in itself doesn't detract from its size if there are arguments for it being something larger than a planet (which there are).

bad example, zero space isnt meant to be parallel to the earth nor used in that way in terms of lore. its a random dimension where a pocket was opened randomly in the real world as the worlds were semi merged together. cyberspace is meant to correlate with the earth and connect all devices in literal distance. small comp spaces are proven yet again to be extremely small with the room statement.

Being lore related or not it's entirely irrelevant. You're using as an argument the fact that Cyberworld has connections on the planet to limit its size, and I'm using the same logic with the X series to demonstrate that this proves nothing. Respond directly to the argument instead of going off on tangents and making useless points.

just because a rift goes to another dimension doesnt mean both dimensions scale to each other, thats not even a natural cyberspace connection in the series, its a rift to an entirely different verse to explain a random crossover. this is like saying any rift opened to another pocket dimension should automatically scale to the dimension its being opened from. theres a rift that appears in starforce 1 from the cyberworld as well, is that tiny little comp space inside a DOGHOUSE a universe too? this is extremely flawed logic and your scan doesnt prove what youre saying at all.

The Doghouse space is inside the Wave World, so it's obvious that the small piece of a whole cannot be scaled to this whole in question. Besides, that wasn't even my point. The Boktai crossover is portrayed as the connecting point between two parallel worlds/universes (Boktai and Battle Network), and it occurs precisely in the Cyberworld, which is treated as a parallel to the Boktai universe. The same can be said of the parallel worlds of Xover, where the Battle Network setting itself is also just one of those worlds.

black hole server even doesnt make sense to encompass everything otherwise why wouldnt it be relevant from the start. geo established a connection to the parallel world in 2, and you know their data forms can just physically travel after defeat right? this has been a thing since even the first battle network game. either way this is way too vague nor makes sense to encompass everything, and once again, nothing scales to the black hole server so this is literal an irrelevant point, the literal scan used for it makes it very clear that its much bigger then anything else. not even meteor g can compare to it.

This section does not respond to the fact that the BHS encompasses space-time.

i dont see why the black hole matters because its not big so that doesnt really add anything in terms of size. dark galaxy isnt literally a galaxy, its clearly just named off the evil organization nebula, and in japan its even called dark nebula not dark galaxy which the same wiki scan you sent says. they even call the final boss nebula grey a "dark star at the center" even though it very clearly isnt anything near a star. these terms are just meant to go with the organizations space imagery with their names and arent meant to be literal.

This is a fair argument. I concede here.

not what it says at all, they just say it looks similar because they are obviously both data worlds.

It's even ironic to question this, as in this wiki, Zero Space and Cyberspace are treated as universes precisely because of X DiVE's event levels (which are DeepLogs/parallel universes), even though BN's Cyberworld is also an event level and therefore a DeepLog/parallel universe.

 

[AlloyAmi]

You don't even understand the meaning of discursive responsibility and the burden of proof (onus probandi). The one who asserts something is the one who must demonstrate it. By declaring that "Cyberworld is unknown to some people because it is something of the past, therefore it is smaller in size", the one making this assertion assumes the responsibility of proving its content. Otherwise, we are faced with what is known as the "reverse burden of proof" fallacy (onus probandi inversionis), a dishonest maneuver to avoid the rational justification of a judgment.

I'm saying its "smaller" in size then what youre suggestingbecause its never shown to extend beyond satellites, and that example was just to show how outclassed it was by the wave world in technology so it by no means should scale beyond what its shown to do. and again the wave world has stuff showing its ALSO not far from earth and even starts having limitations when it gets really far which you once AGAIN ignore, cyberworld literally makes NO NARRATIVE SENSE to encompass the universe while the wave world starts fumbling near the end of earths atmosphere to connect to everything, if anything this makes my battle network assumption a highball since i assume every device can connect to every satellite. if anything, yeah they are similar, similarly bounded to earth that is.

On the contrary, the burden of proving that something "technologically inferior" necessarily has a smaller physical size lies squarely with you. Demanding that I prove that Cyberworld's extent can reach space, as a way to deflect all other arguments about its universal size, is also dishonest, simply nitpicking.

youre literally just dodging the point here, if anything the wave road is smaller then what youre suggesting too, theres just areas in space with it due to specific situations explained such as it being built later on at a specific area but is ultimate disconnected from the main ones on earth that replaced the cyberworld. the fact that the main earth wave road meant to transfer and connect data the same way as the cyberworld but better is struggling to connect to everything at the thermosphere is extremely questionable and makes it very suspicious for the cyberworld replicating the exact purpose but in the past to be a universe in scale. especially when we see the wave world is just a bunch of roads hovering over the planet connecting to everything in once again, real world distance. and any other comp spaces arent big and are either small or large scale rooms.

There's no point in continuing this; you use examples of human characters interacting on the planet as if this were to limit Cyberworld, even though it's extremely obvious because Cyberworld was created by humans on Earth, and it's a network of real-time events that occur there. Again, it's not a physical dimension, and the fact that interactions within the planet can modify its structure is an information that in itself doesn't detract from its size if there are arguments for it being something larger than a planet (which there are).

its a network to connect all computers in real world distance why would it be bigger? we see its in parallel with multiple showings i explained above which you still have yet to address at all. saying its universal in scale completely breaks these showings and makes literally no sense. and i once again repeat that NOTHING shows that the net is any bigger then what im suggesting in the series. it only gets higher due to the undernet parallel overlap and its connection to satellites.

Being lore related or not it's entirely irrelevant. You're using as an argument the fact that Cyberworld has connections on the planet to limit its size, and I'm using the same logic with the X series to demonstrate that this proves nothing. Respond directly to the argument instead of going off on tangents and making useless points.

it is relevant because its what determines it and its purpose in the series? the x series' zero space has no connection to the planet in lore, theres merely a opening created to lead to it after its creation.

The Doghouse space is inside the Wave World, so it's obvious that the small piece of a whole cannot be scaled to this whole in question. Besides, that wasn't even my point.

except it was because im using the exact same logic youre using for this boktai crossover

The Boktai crossover is portrayed as the connecting point between two parallel worlds/universes (Boktai and Battle Network), and it occurs precisely in the Cyberworld, which is treated as a parallel to the Boktai universe.

it is never treated as parallel in any of the scans provided or in the event, this is outright wrong information.

The same can be said of the parallel worlds of Xover, where the Battle Network setting itself is also just one of those worlds.

this doesnt prove anything, battle network takes place in a standard universe, just literally literaly any other timeline. this is not a scale for the cyberworld.

This section does not respond to the fact that the BHS encompasses space-time.

again ignoring how geo established a connection to his timeline in 2 already and how data itself can travel.

It's even ironic to question this, as in this wiki, Zero Space and Cyberspace are treated as universes precisely because of X DiVE's event levels (which are DeepLogs/parallel universes), even though BN's Cyberworld is also an event level and therefore a DeepLog/parallel universe.

zero space is also scaled to x4s cyberworld which we see has actual connections and parallels to the actual deep log itself on itself alone and theres also further upscaling to be made with astro man lore to be brought up in the near future. the reason deep logs are universes is because they usually represent an entire game series' universe within them. we directly see battle networks real world would be included with this as lan is present during the event, so the cyberspace itself doesnt necessarily have to scale to an entirety of the deep log as that event also includes the real world from where lan is. i also once again point to how cyberworld being universal just doesnt fit narratively, and none of my showings about it being parallel have been debunked.

 

[Maestro_Churches]

@AlloyAmi I have been considering your arguments. Although some of what you said seems wrong to me, ultimately the arguments for Cyberworld being a universe are indeed far-fetched and need to be extrapolated with vague quotes and cross-scaling. In fact, Cyberworld being limited to the planet seems to have been the intention from the beginning, since even in the manga when Hub had to cross it, he ends up in a jungle and not in a cosmic space or anything like that. Considering the extent of Battle Network's feats, it should be the second weakest saga in the entire franchise.

This thread can be closed.

 

[AlloyAmi]

would like to also mention that while the manga takes a lot of creative freedoms and its ultimately its own thing, the manga writer also took the time to play through the games before their release and make sure it isnt crazy out of line detail wise, and to fix anything if there was.

also dont think the thread should be closed over this because theres still stuff to be fixed with the pages as the main low multi feat is extremely flawed and theres more experts I can bring in that currently also disagree on that feat @Migue79

its mostly just retiering bass.exe's earth break one shotting the dark aura because the annihilation of the cyberworld would be the most impressive feat for everyone to scale to. I also need some calcers to evaluate the size i calculated along with the annihilation results i got which ranged from tier 6-5.

 

[Migue79]

I haven't finished going through every BN game yet (at BN3 rn) so I can't comment on anything beyond definitely agreeing that the Gospel feat needs to go (as I have beaten BN2 at least and that the "merging" is bogus - legit just affecting a building and that's it).

Also, the profile always needed to be decomposed. So I think those 2 things need to be done before thinking about anything else (removing the Gospel thing and decomposing EXE's profile).

 

[AlloyAmi]

chaos jester was working on a sandbox decompositing and I got his permission to psuedo merg it with what we have now. its missing some stuff but nothing major that we cant just wing it until we fully get to revise it and i also have suggestions for some of the missing stuff.

 

[Maestro_Churches]

With the Cyberworld being a universe out of the way, I think this is the summary of actual Tier 3/2 feats from the Mega Man franchise:

• Sigma/Techno's Cyberworld rewrite.
• Sigma/Cyber Peacock affecting Cyberspace.
• Zero Virus' Zero Space creation.
• Lumine's Paradise Lost (arguably 3-A, not touching it for now).
• Omega's Cyberspace creation.

... And the wrong arguments for Tier 3/2 Mega Man would be:

• Astro Man's dimensions.
• Nightmare Virus' dimensions (Central Museum Stage).
• Great Redips' power of creation and universal evolution.
• Gospel's world merging.
• Alpha's Cyberworld incarnation and consumption.
• Dark Aura's durability.
• Dr. Wily being an universal threat (yes, that thing exists).

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

OP's arguments make sense.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree that manga and anime are both different from the games and we should de-composite that. But there are plenty of overlooked facts about Cyberworld. I understand we aren't ready to tackle it, but the cosmology is pretty similar to Pokemon in a lot of ways (Albeit smaller due to there being fewer game cartridges produced)

 

[Firestorm808]

I agree that better cosmology justifications are needed.

I see merit that Geo was capable of defeating Hub and chose to hold back. Hub showed effort in fighting Geo.

 

[Maestro_Churches]

I agree that manga and anime are both different from the games and we should de-composite that. But there are plenty of overlooked facts about Cyberworld. I understand we aren't ready to tackle it, but the cosmology is pretty similar to Pokemon in a lot of ways (Albeit smaller due to there being fewer game cartridges produced)

The argument that Cyberworld is some sort of multiverse that contains copies of every Battle Network game ever sold is wrong and has no real evidence or basis whatsoever.

 

[TheHedgememe]

Thanks for the clarification. Still, it would be better if there were scans in her profile to justify her base form being 2-C, especially since the profile says she's stronger than Colonel, which doesn't make sense.

Just checked her profile again and I agree. The justifications are rather weak on there (seriously, why does it argue she's stronger than Colonel?), but at worst I feel she'd just need a slight rework.

 

[AlloyAmi]

With the Cyberworld being a universe out of the way, I think this is the summary of actual Tier 3/2 feats from the Mega Man franchise:

• Sigma/Techno's Cyberworld rewrite.
• Sigma/Cyber Peacock affecting Cyberspace.
• Zero Virus' Zero Space creation.
• Lumine's Paradise Lost (arguably 3-A, not touching it for now).
• Omega's Cyberspace creation.

... And the wrong arguments for Tier 3/2 Mega Man would be:

• Astro Man's dimensions.
• Nightmare Virus' dimensions (Central Museum Stage).
• Great Redips' power of creation and universal evolution.
• Gospel's world merging.
• Alpha's Cyberworld incarnation and consumption.
• Dark Aura's durability.
• Dr. Wily being an universal threat (yes, that thing exists).

as someone whos argued against it for the longest time, i actually found there to be truth for astro mans dimensions after going through everything and even found a way to scale it to ap with & bass. everyone just has been arguing it in the wrong way funnily enough as they were too focused on the cosmic bodies. the cosmic bodies are 100% fake, but his entire stage is actually his own dimension and its size has a direct statement confirming its a universe (in japanese and i recently verified it) making it that big. & bass makes it so kingmodifies him to use the full power of his dimensional creation ability for ap to explain the copy vision attack. however it would be a massive outlier for the classic series but is a good upscale for later era dimensions and ill eventually bring it up on a thread though its not really that important as of now.

regarding the nightmare virus dimensions, you can potenially argue the alternate paths in every stage were also created by them but id have to look into it more. the most we see is them having moons due to them copying the commander yammark stage and likely by extension a sun as its not pitch black. the actual cosmic bodies in the museum on the other hand definitely arent real and are just imagery.

sigma affecting the cyberworld in x4 was likely just some corruption as he infected cyber peacock so thats just hax, and cyber peacock was only destroying relevant programs within the network so its kinda too vague to really put any tier on that and that also deconfirms him just traditionally destroying the entire space so i wouldnt use this.

besides that everything is correct, though i do have to say redips stuff has some interesting stuff for upscaling especially with the japanese dialogue but his statements alone arent a feat.

 

[AlloyAmi]

The argument that Cyberworld is some sort of multiverse that contains copies of every Battle Network game ever sold is wrong and has no real evidence or basis whatsoever.

this page is funny to me because they call the wave world a universe and that the cyberworld from battle network CONTAINS it all despite it not even being invented yet the alternate dimension is also yet another starforce thing. like you genuinely have to just not play the games to think the cyberworld from 200 years prior contains everything from the starforce era.

 

[AlloyAmi]

I agree that manga and anime are both different from the games and we should de-composite that. But there are plenty of overlooked facts about Cyberworld. I understand we aren't ready to tackle it, but the cosmology is pretty similar to Pokemon in a lot of ways (Albeit smaller due to there being fewer game cartridges produced)

ignoring that link cables would just buff the standard multiverse of the series, not the cyberworld in a single universe specifically, its such a nothingburger argument because nothing scales to that nor does anything affects the greater multiverse in this meta sense besides the via/sigma virus in xdive (and rico and the player fixing it). every game is a universe aready thanks to xdive with there being as many deep logs as there are games and players, and xdive directly says theres countless players several times. we already know it connects to other verses with the canonically explained crossovers. literally nobody scaling to this besides the xdive mfs though (sigma, player, rico, via etc)

 

[Maestro_Churches]

besides that everything is correct, though i do have to say redips stuff has some interesting stuff for upscaling especially with the japanese dialogue but his statements alone arent a feat.

It's the other way around, the english version has all the statements that could buff him to universal, when the japanese version flat out destroys all of them.

ignoring that link cables would just buff the standard multiverse of the series, not the cyberworld in a single universe specifically, its such a nothingburger argument because nothing scales to that nor does anything affects the greater multiverse in this meta sense besides the via/sigma virus in xdive (and rico and the player fixing it). every game is a universe aready thanks to xdive with there being as many deep logs as there are games and players, and xdive directly says theres countless players several times. we already know it connects to other verses with the canonically explained crossovers. literally nobody scaling to this besides the xdive mfs though (sigma, player, rico, via etc)

I recall a scan where X supposedly has an armor that "transcend all worlds", which was used to scale him to the entire cosmology and thus give him a 2-B tier. I never played that part of the game, so I don't know the context.

 

[AlloyAmi]

It's the other way around, the english version has all the statements that could buff him to universal, when the japanese version flat out destroys all of them.

idk how the english one is universal unless you take the "infinite power of creation thing" literal but yeah he doesnt say that line at all in japanese. the only reason i said the japanese statements were interesting cuz it says stuff along the line of:

"You fools probably won't understand this..."
"But by enhancing this transformation ability with Supra-Force Metal...
"I become the ultimate being..."
"Capable of ascending to a peak that no one else can reach!"

and

"Reploids evolve in pursuit of greater abilities."
"That's only natural, isn't it?"
"I will achieve the ultimate evolution in the universe!"

this at the very least makes him the strongest foe in the timeline at that point upscaling him over anything seen before.

I recall a scan where X supposedly has an armor that "transcend all worlds", which was used to scale him to the entire cosmology and thus give him a 2-B tier. I never played that part of the game, so I don't know the context.

the dive armor uses the full power of the cosmological deep log which each have their own 2-b cosmology due to the countless games and players stuff from above, this at its minimum would be 2-B.

this absolute beast of an armor, the NEXT dive armor was made to be a MASSIVE upgrade from the regular dive armor surpassing it entirely, and is even stated to be the strongest armor outright. This is the statement of rico wanting to make an armor to transcend all worlds, and the result of her work was this very armor as shown in the end of the event stage. regarding the tier of this... thats a topic for another day.

 

[TheHedgememe]

With the Cyberworld being a universe out of the way, I think this is the summary of actual Tier 3/2 feats from the Mega Man franchise:

• Sigma/Techno's Cyberworld rewrite.
• Sigma/Cyber Peacock affecting Cyberspace.
• Zero Virus' Zero Space creation.
• Lumine's Paradise Lost (arguably 3-A, not touching it for now).
• Omega's Cyberspace creation.

Pretty much. I wouldn't include Lumine's Paradise Lost unless if there's substantial evidence to back it up (it REALLY feels like a stretch to say it's 3-A), but other than that it looks legit. Zero Space itself is comprised of four separate dimensions and the Mother Computer rewrite is accepted as having 27 space-times as established in another thread.

 

[Maestro_Churches]

this at the very least makes him the strongest foe in the timeline at that point upscaling him over anything seen before.

The problem is that is not related to AP. Redips' power being declared supreme in the context of the game is due to the fact that Supra-Force Metal grants him an unlimited regeneration capacity, which allows him to regenerate all his life during each turn of the game. Great Redips only has a power of 200, which is slightly higher than his base form, who has a power of 178. For comparison, the most powerful character in the game, Ninetails, has a power of 400. So, the strongest character AP wise in the X timeline would be Ninetails.

the dive armor uses the full power of the cosmological deep log which each have their own 2-b cosmology due to the countless games and players stuff from above, this at its minimum would be 2-B.

this absolute beast of an armor, the NEXT dive armor was made to be a MASSIVE upgrade from the regular dive armor surpassing it entirely, and is even stated to be the strongest armor outright. This is the statement of rico wanting to make an armor to transcend all worlds, and the result of her work was this very armor as shown in the end of the event stage. regarding the tier of this... thats a topic for another day.

Now I need 2-B Zero

 

[TheHedgememe]

Now I need 2-B Zero

I understand completely