Shadow Slave: Cosmology and Concept Types (1 more staff vote needed)

[Verezen]

This CRT is for the cosmology and some of the concepts from Shadow Slave. Credits to @Seraphor12 ,@NITROMonkey1000 and @Lycenum_lycopersicum for helping me make this thread

The Universe as Space-time continuum: For something to qualify as a proper space-time continuum regarding some feat, usually one of the following two criteria should be met: It is explicitly stated to be a "Space-time continuum" or something equivalent. It fulfills the standards for being a universe-sized realm, and all of its time is also involved in its feat. I.e., the structure involved in the feat is the timeline of an entire universe. When considering "dimensions" or "universes", one should keep in mind that time travel should not be possible between universes which we factually know are not branching timelines off each other. If this happens, it could be used to show that they are part of the same universe.

So, for Shadow Slave, the second criterion is most valid because Sunny states the war realm is not just a planet, but that it is a whole universe, which is billions of years old. The War Realm is inspired by the real universe, which is also why the planet they are on is Earth, and the story takes place in a futuristic post-apocalyptic world. This war realm is referred to as one of the 7 divine realms in the story. Along with those 7, there are an unknown number of mortal realms

Sunny also states that the concept of space is innately connected with the concept of infinity, which suggests that these realms are infinite in size. And in this statement, about the Tomb of Ariel, which has 2 timelines, although I am using this scan because it clarifies that the concept of time is embedded within the universe, thus this concept governs all of existence, so they should be space-time continuums (2C). By this war realm should be low 2C. All the divine realms and the mortal realms were merged with the Dream realm, except for the War realm. So there are 5 divine realms + an unknown number of mortal realms merged with it, therefore it should be a 2C structure. In the story, characters can travel between the War realm and the Dream realm through gateways(portals) which are connected to different places in the Dream realm. Characters of the awakened rank simply enter the dream realm when they sleep, and can return to the waking world by sleeping over there (after some time has passed). Their physical body remains in the War realm during this period. Characters of the ascended rank and above can enter the dream realm to their anchored gateway at will and return to their tether in the waking world at will as well. As Trancendents, they can bring anyone with them to the dream realm, and at the Supreme rank, they gain the ability to create dream gates which allow them to move people from the War realm to the dream.

Types of Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect".

This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.

The Gods created concepts like: creation, destruction, life, war, progress, technology, fire, souls, emotion, memory, hunger, and growth etc. These concepts are all related to the gods, and they govern all objects in existence. Further evidence is that one of these concepts, Destruction, is explicitly stated to be force older than time capable of destroying all of existence. The concept of Creation is also related to Destruction by being called another side of it. This solidifies that these concepts are capable of governing all of reality and even predate it. So, all these should be at least considered Type 2 concepts

Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

The Absolute laws (space, time, death, imperfection) were created by the gods even before they created reality. God created these laws to counter void's nature, which is ever-changing, everlasting, and endless. They were like weapons for them. The Gods later used them to shape all of reality, and created a seal. The gods are also capable of willing something to have always existed. It should also be mentioned that even after the Gods who created these concepts died, the concepts remain in effect. For example, Shadow God, who created death, is dead, and yet death remains. So, these laws are completely separate and independent from reality, and exist entirely on their own so therefore should be considered type 1 concepts.

Because the discussion has become rather long, this is a link to a summary of both sides

War Realm is low 2C, Dream realm is 2C, The Absolute laws are type 1 concepts, and other concepts related to gods are type 2.

Agree: ActuallySpaceMan42, FinePoint,

Disagree:

 

[Seraphor12]

So, for Shadow Slave, the second criterion is most valid because Sunny states the war realm is not just a planet, but that it is a whole universe, which is billions of years old. The War Realm is inspired by the real universe, which is also why the planet they are on is Earth, and the story takes place in a futuristic post-apocalyptic world. This war realm is referred to as one of the 7 divine realms in the story. Along with those 7, there are an unknown number of mortal realms

That looks fine

Sunny also states that the concept of space is innately connected with the concept of infinity, which suggests that these realms are infinite in size. And in this statement, about the Tomb of Ariel, which has 2 timelines, although I am using this scan because it clarifies that the concept of time is embedded within the universe, thus this concept governs all of existence, so they should be space-time continuums (2C). By this war realm should be low 2C. All the divine realms and the mortal realms were merged with the Dream realm, except for the War realm. So there are 5 divine realms + an unknown number of mortal realms merged with it, therefore it should be a 2C structure. In the story, characters can travel between the War realm and the Dream realm through gateways(portals) which are connected to different places in the Dream realm.

I think you should add direct link scan for infinity stuff as it shows multiple scans related to abundance. And for last part at lower ranks they don't even actually travel as they just sleep and wake up in dream realm. And there physical body just exists on earth. And it looks fine except for 5 divine realms part as there should be 6 including dream realm itself.

The Gods created concepts like : creation, destruction, life, war, progress, technology, fire, souls, emotion, memory, hunger, and growth etc. These concepts are all related to the gods, and they govern all objects in existence. So, all these concepts should be at least Type 2 concepts.

Yeah they govern their particular object in all realms so that should be type 2.

The Absolute laws (space, time, death, imperfection) were created by gods even before they created reality. God created these laws to counter void's nature, which is ever-changing, everlasting, and endless. They were like weapons for them. The Gods later used them to shape all of the reality. It should also be mentioned that even after the Gods who created these concepts died, the concepts remain in effect. For example Shadow God who created death is dead and yet death remains. So, these laws are completely separate and independent from reality, and exist entirely on their own so therefore should be considered type 1 concepts.

Yeah it looks fine to be type 1 ig and this scan also shows a possibility that gods can will something to have always exist so this kinda also supports it.

 

[SuperNova55555]

The Gods created concepts like : creation, destruction, life, war, progress, technology, fire, souls, emotion, memory, hunger, and growth etc. These concepts are all related to the gods, and they govern all objects in existence. So, all these concepts should be at least Type 2 concepts.

I don’t see how this is proof of Type 2. The first scan links to the supposed Type 1’s and the second is a wiki.

Agree with 2-C, currently neutral on Type 1.

 

[Verezen]

That looks fine

I think you should add direct link scan for infinity stuff as it shows multiple scans related to abundance. And for last part at lower ranks they don't even actually travel as they just sleep and wake up in dream realm. And there physical body just exists on earth. And it looks fine except for 5 divine realms part as there should be 6 including dream realm itself.

Yeah they govern their particular object in all realms so that should be type 2.

Yeah it looks fine to be type 1 ig and this scan also shows a possibility that gods can will something to have always exist so this kinda also supports it.

Edited it with the changes you proposed. For the "5 divine realms" part, it is because there are 7 in total. Now 5 other divine realms have merged with the dream realm leaving only the war realm (as well as the new, merged dream realm). I hope that did not confuse anyone.

 

[Robo432343]

agree but no one should scale to this yet

 

[Verezen]

I don’t see how this is proof of Type 2. The first scan links to the supposed Type 1’s and the second is a wiki.

Agree with 2-C, currently neutral on Type 1.

The first scan was meant to show how the gods created the concepts that govern reality, and the second one was from the shadow slave wiki showing what authorities and concepts each of the gods governs. They are at least type 2 for governing the entirety of the reality created by the gods.

 

[Seraphor12]

The first scan was meant to show how the gods created the concepts that govern reality, and the second one was from the shadow slave wiki showing what authorities and concepts each of the gods governs. They are at least type 2 for governing the entirety of the reality created by the gods.

you should add an explanation for avoiding any misunderstandings imo

 

[Verezen]

agree but no one should scale to this yet

The gods and daemons at least do, and so do several entities from the doom war because in the war, many mortal realms were destroyed. The Gods are also the ones who created the realms, and the Daemons scale at least relative to them. So I don't see why the top tiers can't scale to it. Ofc none of the current main cast scale to them as of yet

 

[LOTM_Historian]

Isn't the absolute law of space, time, and death literally just space, time, and death themselves? The absolute laws aren't separate from the very things that arise from them. They are literally space, time and death.

For example, when Sunny defies death, it's described as 'breaking the absolute law of death.' Similarly, space itself is considered an absolute law and same with all the other laws.

Like there isn't a distinction between space and the absolute law of space. Or the other absolute laws.

Wouldn't this be an issue for considering them type 1 concepts?

 

[Seraphor12]

agree but no one should scale to this yet

Maybe sacreds can scale to it? because of how eurys mentioned them, there spirit becomes large enough to encompass the world so there hax can scale to it.

While a Supreme is defined by the dominance of their soul over a portion of the world — manifesting as a domain of influence and overwhelming personal power — a Spirit is one whose soul has expanded to the point that it can encompass the entire world. This transition marks the boundary between the divine and the mortal, making Apotheosis the act of becoming a lesser deity or minor god. It is not simply a matter of accumulating strength, but a complete metamorphosis of consciousness, perception, and essence.

 

[SuperNova55555]

The first scan was meant to show how the gods created the concepts that govern reality, and the second one was from the shadow slave wiki showing what authorities and concepts each of the gods governs. They are at least type 2 for governing the entirety of the reality created by the gods.

None of those scans prove Type 2 though, because you haven’t shown the relationship required for it. Not only does the first scan only talk about “Absolute Laws”, but none of them even tell you what these concepts actually mean in relation to reality. Simply “creating a concept” isn’t a qualifier for anything above Type 4 if it’s not explained how those concepts work.

 

[Seraphor12]

Isn't the absolute law of space, time, and death literally just space, time, and death themselves? The absolute laws aren't separate from the very things that arise from them. They are literally space, time and death.

For example, when Sunny defies death, it's described as 'breaking the absolute law of death.' Similarly, space itself is considered an absolute law and same with all the other laws.

Like there isn't a distinction between space and the concept / absolute law of space. Or the other absolute laws.

Wouldn't this be an issue for considering them type 1 concepts?

You're back at it again? Sunny doing it is not what matters on this wiki. The process was he committed a suicide and ranked up so that's not something how conceptual manipulation looks like yk? He is calling it defying death because he basically escaped it. So that's not even cm here. And you seemed to miss the entire point for type 1 claim.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

You're back at it again? Sunny doing it is not what matters on this wiki. The process was he committed a suicide and ranked up so that's not something how conceptual manipulation looks like yk? He is calling it defying death because he basically escaped it. So that's not even cm here. And you seemed to miss the entire point for type 1 claim.

Are you not reading what I am saying? The absolute laws aren't made distinct from the things that supposedly subsist from them. Like the absolute law of space = space itself.

 

[Seraphor12]

Are you not reading what I am saying? The absolute laws aren't made distinct from the things that supposedly subsist from them. Like the absolute law of space = space itself.

scan for this claim please

 

[LOTM_Historian]

scan for this claim please

Bro, this is something you need to disprove to get CM type 1. And sure, here are some scans:

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com

 

[Floxy178]

Like the absolute law of space = space itself.

More like concept of space, not space itself

 

[LOTM_Historian]

More like concept of space, not space itself

Then why would breaking space, death etc. be considered breaking the absolute laws in Shadow Slave? It's never made meaningfully distinct.

 

[Floxy178]

I disagree for Low 2-C and 2-C. Will comment on it after getting scans.

 

[Seraphor12]

Bro, this is something you need to disprove to get CM type 1. And sure, here are some scans:

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Looks like you yourself haven't read these scans yourself. I literally explained the stuff for why 1st scan is not an cm. For second scan he quiet literally says that violating the concept of space was difficult and the process he describes is just for spatial manipulation in local. Manipulation of the objects does not mean it is the manipulation of the concept. And for third what do I even disprove in it?

 

[LOTM_Historian]

Looks like you yourself haven't read these scans yourself. I literally explained the stuff for why 1st scan is not an cm.

My entire point is that its's not CM... Or at least not type 1.

For second scan he quiet literally says that violating the concept of space was difficult and the process he describes is just for spatial manipulation in local.

So how does this make the absolute law of space not space?

Manipulation of the objects does not mean it is the manipulation of the concept. And for third what do I even disprove in it?

Prove that the absolute law of space is distinct from space... Like, if you aren't going to be showing evidence, why even make a CRT?

 

[SuperNova55555]

Thinking on it, and seeing Historian’s argument, I’m starting to think that the Absolute Laws are nomological in the same way, say, gravity is a law of physics. So, in my opinion, it seems very likely that they’re either 1) not a concept at all or 2) Type 2 at best.

Also, this seems supported by the fact that whenever they are used against things like the Void Beings, they always seem to only affect them by adding properties to them, the same way that existing in space gives you the property of a spatial object.

Looks like you yourself haven't read these scans yourself. I literally explained the stuff for why 1st scan is not an cm. For second scan he quiet literally says that violating the concept of space was difficult and the process he describes is just for spatial manipulation in local. Manipulation of the objects does not mean it is the manipulation of the concept. And for third what do I even disprove in it?

Second scan says law of space, not concept. And I’m not sure how you addressed the first.

 

[Seraphor12]

Second scan say law of space, not concept. And I’m not sure how you addressed the first.

yes, they refer to them as laws and absolute laws. And for the first it was basically his rank up process in my previous reply. He committed suicide and as there is a rule that whoever he kills their shadow goes to his soul sea, so that happened and he himself is a shadow so goes there in his soul sea. And comes back as a supreme. So, by this way he escaped death. Anyway I am going to sleep rn so I will be not able to reply to your questions.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

yes, they refer to them as laws and absolute laws. And for the first it was basically his rank up process in my previous reply. He committed suicide and as there is a rule that whoever he kills their shadow goes to his soul sea, so that happened and he himself is a shadow so goes there in his soul sea. And comes back as a supreme. So, by this way he escaped death. Anyway I am going to sleep rn so I will be not able to reply to your questions.

And how does this refute any of what Super_Nova is saying?

 

[LOTM_Historian]

This is another scan proving that kinda disproves this type 1 absolute laws. There are two "concepts" of time in the Great River. In the first part, it's simply referring to the great river, so you can extrapolate that the “concept” of time in the second scan simply refers to the physical constant of time

Gyazo

gyazo.com

So it’s at most implied here that concept is just an “idea” the same way a mind-dependent Type 4 concept is. So it seems it has no real ontology, the same way the first mention of concept is literally just the non-conceptual river.

 

[Floxy178]

Then why would breaking space, death etc. be considered breaking the absolute laws in Shadow Slave? It's never made meaningfully distinct.

Exactly because defying laws are not literally meaning breaking them. Even Gods aren't free of them.

You're defying law of space not because manipulating space, but doing it in a way that contradicts the law which defines how space must behave. You're going against the idea/rule rather than just some spatial manipulation. Obviously feats involving defying laws will involve those. Otherwise every way of manipulating space would be violation, which isn't the case.(chapter 1959)

 

[LOTM_Historian]

Exactly because defying laws are not literally meaning breaking them. Even Gods aren't free of them.

You're defying law of space not because manipulating space, but doing it in a way that contradicts the law which defines how space must behave. You're going against the idea/rule rather than just some spatial manipulation. Obviously feats involving defying laws will involve those. Otherwise every way of manipulating space would be violation, which isn't the case.(chapter 1959)

Yeah, it still hasn’t been made clearly distinct. The space scan I sent showed that these characters are able to manipulate space without fully breaking the absolute laws. It's similar to the saying of “bending the rules but not breaking them.” They are simply bending the absolute laws without violating them.

Fully breaking them would mean you are fully free from space itself. Which, like you said, not even the gods can be.

 

[Floxy178]

This is another scan proving that kinda disproves this type 1 absolute laws. There are two "concepts" of time in the Great River. In the first part, it's simply referring to the great river, so you can extrapolate that the “concept” of time in the second scan simply refers to the physical constant of time

Gyazo

gyazo.com

So it’s at most implied here that concept is just an “idea” the same way a mind-dependent Type 4 concept is. So it seems it has no real ontology, the same way the first mention of concept is literally just the non-conceptual river.

"2 concepts of time" is only about time being interpreted in 2 ways based on reference frame. There aren't 2 laws of time coexisting, but literally 2 time flows.

The word “concept” here is used philosophically, meaning:

"A way of understanding or modeling time’s behavior in this context."

 

[LOTM_Historian]

"2 concepts of time" is only about time being interpreted in 2 ways based on reference frame. There aren't 2 laws of time coexisting, but literally 2 time flows.

The word “concept” here is used philosophically, meaning:

"A way of understanding or modeling time’s behavior in this context."

Yeah, that's what I said:

"So it’s at most implied here that concept is just an “idea” the same way a mind-dependent Type 4 concept is. So it seems it has no real ontology, the same way the first mention of concept is literally just the non-conceptual river."

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Bro, this is something you need to disprove to get CM type 1. And sure, here are some scans:

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com

THIS IS ONLY A REQUIREMENT FOR LOW 1-A TYPE 1 CONCEPTS DUDE.

 

[Floxy178]

Yeah, that's what I said:

Honestly I don't understand how defining time according to 2 seperate time flows individually proves that time is only mind depended. Anyway I'm not really knowledgeable on that so I'll let someone else to debate this.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

THIS IS ONLY A REQUIREMENT FOR LOW 1-A TYPE 1 CONCEPTS DUDE.

Did you miss my point? Explain to me what you think I'm even saying, bro.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Honestly I don't understand how defining time according to 2 seperate time flows individually proves that time is only mind depended. Anyway I'm not really knowledgeable on that so I'll let someone else to debate this.

I think the point here is that the concept of time is mind-dependent, as in, an idea. But time itself is physical, and the word “concept” simply points to the physical thing and not some abstract source.

In any case, I’ll wait for the supporters to respond before making any final judgements.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Did you miss my point? Explain to me what you think I'm even saying, bro.

Just seemed like you were trying to pull the type 1 concepts are indivisible so you're trying to say that you cant do something like manipulate a type 1 concept around a limited area.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I think the point here is that the concept of time is mind-dependent, as in, an idea. But time itself is physical, and the word “concept” simply points to the physical thing and not some abstract source.

In any case, I’ll wait for the supporters to respond before making any final judgements.

Well the main issue with that is that this is an entirely different context referring to how there's two different points of reference for time in the river. Meanwhile the other concept stuff is within the context of absolute laws which govern existence. Using the logic that all the times concept is mentioned = mind reliant ideas is also just flat out wrong as we have other concept stuff that are explicitly abstract/metaphysical.

It was not that Anvil's sword had cut down a cloud. Instead, it seemed to have cut… the very concept of the red pollen, thus destroying its material manifestation.

Take this for example. Material things manifest according to their concept.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Well the main issue with that is that this is an entirely different context referring to how there's two different points of reference for time in the river. Meanwhile the other concept stuff is within the context of absolute laws which govern existence. Using the logic that all the times concept is mentioned = mind reliant ideas is also just flat out wrong as we have other concept stuff that are explicitly abstract/metaphysical.

Take this for example. Material things manifest according to their concept.

Also this.
Gods themselves are stated to operate under concepts and ideas which is why the universe was shaped into existence.

But it seemed very much like something that the gods would be involved in. These beings operated with ideas and concepts, after all, having shaped the very universe into existence.

So, if nothing could contain the Void… the gods could have gone and literally used nothing to contain it. Enveloping the Void in a layer of nothingness, which the Void Beings could not cross, because nothing could stop them. And bringing down the cage of existence on top of that layer.

And it's quite literally stated that these absolute laws which govern existence were concepts, then here concept of space is mentioned which is specifically mentioned in the context of Abundance who's entire ability is to use the concept of infinity.

In the past few days, he had been observing the Snow Worm carefully. He still did not know a lot about the Cursed Beast, but he was certain that it wielded the concept of infinity as a weapon.

It was a single-minded and patient creature. And yet, it was exactly its single-mindedness that made the Snow Worm so frightening… its extreme mastery of a single power, of a single concept - used both for attack and defense - made it almost inevitable.

Since the Snow Worm wielded the concept of infinity as its weapon and could expand or shrink its body at will, some Obsidian Wasps were simply torn asunder when the point in space they had occupied suddenly expanded. Others were crushed into infinitely small balls of obsidian when the space they had been occupying shrank.

These aren't mind dependent ideas either as the whole point of Cursed beings is that they manipulate concepts themselves. Another example from Abjuration.

No. her adversary was not simply wielding the authority of abjuration. It personified abjuration - the very concept of foreswearing something, thus negating its power and its very existence.

That was what Will could accomplish when elevated to the very edge of being absolute.

How would one fight against an absolute Will?

Although Nephis did not know it yet, the technique Sunny would use in Ariel's Game was to channel and personify a concept that directly opposed the power of his adversary.

At the same time, Abjuration rejected the flame. The hideous abomination refused to be burned, and in doing so, it denied the concept of heat itself, turning the world into a frozen inferno.

Two opposite worlds had been born from the devastating clash of their Wills, both existing side by side as possibilities — neither realized nor entirely abolished, and therefore suspended in a state of undetermined rivalry.

As Nephis and Abjuration fought, their Wills straining against each other, one world or the other took shape for a brief moment or two, becoming reality. Then, the Cursed Demon would be scorched and burned — a heartbeat later, the flames devouring its hideous body would be extinguished, and Nephis would suddenly find herself being strangled by unbearable cold. 'This… vile… thing…'

She reeled under the pressure of fighting the fallen deity's unfathomable Will and authority… of its insidious mastery over the concept of refusal that threatened to deny her very existence, let alone her ability to do the Cursed Demon harm.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Also this.
Gods themselves are stated to operate under concepts and ideas which is why the universe was shaped into existence.

And it's quite literally stated that these absolute laws which govern existence were concepts, then here concept of space is mentioned which is specifically mentioned in the context of Abundance who's entire ability is to use the concept of infinity.



These aren't mind dependent ideas either as the whole point of Cursed beings is that they manipulate concepts themselves. Another example from Abjuration.

I see. Then I’m fine with Type 3 concepts and Type 2 for Absolute Laws.

If you can show that the Absolute Laws operate irregardless of whether or not the things dependent on them exist in the first place, then I guess I’m fine with Type 1 for them. (Like, if you erase all of space, the law of space is completely fine.)

From what I know, the Absolute Law of Death is the Shadow Realm, right? If you can prove that the Law of Death would exist even if you destroyed the Shadow Realm, then that’d be really good.

Though, there might be other ways of proving Type 1, but I think the ones above are the most cut and dry ways to do it.

 

[Floxy178]

So, for Shadow Slave, the second criterion is most valid because Sunny states the war realm is not just a planet, but that it is a whole universe, which is billions of years old. The War Realm is inspired by the real universe, which is also why the planet they are on is Earth, and the story takes place in a futuristic post-apocalyptic world. This war realm is referred to as one of the 7 divine realms in the story. Along with those 7, there are an unknown number of mortal realms

Sunny also states that the concept of space is innately connected with the concept of infinity, which suggests that these realms are infinite in size. And in this statement, about the Tomb of Ariel, which has 2 timelines, although I am using this scan because it clarifies that the concept of time is embedded within the universe, thus this concept governs all of existence, so they should be space-time continuums (2C). By this war realm should be low 2C. All the divine realms and the mortal realms were merged with the Dream realm, except for the War realm. So there are 5 divine realms + an unknown number of mortal realms merged with it, therefore it should be a 2C structure. In the story, characters can travel between the War realm and the Dream realm through gateways(portals) which are connected to different places in the Dream realm. Characters of the awakened rank simply enter the dream realm when they sleep, and can return to the waking world by sleeping over there (after some time has passed). Their physical body remains in the War realm during this period. Characters of the ascended rank and above can enter the dream realm to their anchored gateway at will and return to their tether in the waking world at will as well. As Trancendents, they can bring anyone with them to the dream realm, and at the Supreme rank, they gain the ability to create dream gates which allow them to move people from the War realm to the dream.

I disagree with 2-C because time isn't infinite in Shadow Slave.

In chapter 1487, it was revealed that River is in circle, and that's why it's described flowing endlessly. Also Sunny specifically states that past isn't infinite, otherwise they couldn't reach estuary going to the past.

Flow of time(the one that's flow of Great River) in Tomb of Ariel is directly related to whole timeline of outside world. So if Great River isn't infinite, time outside isn't too.

Here's Ananke explaining that normal flow of time is related to Tomb itslef while flow of River is related to outside world. (chapter 1292)

Additionally, Sunny describes locations in Great River corresponding outside world's time. (chapter 1547)

Sunny then again states that if they left the Nightmare in the time corresponding to where they were in relation to the Estuary, they'd end up in the Age of Gods. (chapter 1586)

Given that River also contains dawn of time(which was before River even got created) we can know that when it's said that Great River flows from future to past, it's outside world's past and future.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I disagree with 2-C because time isn't infinite in Shadow Slave.

In chapter 1487, it was revealed that River is in circle, and that's why it's described flowing endlessly. Also Sunny specifically states that past isn't infinite, otherwise they couldn't reach estuary going to the past.

Flow of time(the one that's flow of Great River) in Tomb of Ariel is directly related to whole timeline of outside world. So if Great River isn't infinite, time outside isn't too.

Here's Ananke explaining that normal flow of time is related to Tomb itslef while flow of River is related to outside world. (chapter 1292)

Additionally, Sunny describes locations in Great River corresponding outside world's time. (chapter 1547)

Sunny then again states that if they left the Nightmare in the time corresponding to where they were in relation to the Estuary, they'd end up in the Age of Gods. (chapter 1586)

Given that River also contains dawn of time(which was before River even got created) we can know that when it's said that Great River flows from future to past, it's outside world's past and future.

This isn't really an anti-feat for continuous time nor would I use Great River as a real anti feat as it's just a location with a weird relation to time and a cyclical nature. Also strings of fate is just explicitly stated to extend infinitely into past present and future as if it was a direction.

...an endless, beautiful eternity of twisting threads. Those threads transfixed everything in existence, connecting every living being and every object, every thought and every concept, every dream and every nightmare, stretching infinitely into every direction, as well as into the past, the present, and the future.

These were the Strings of Fate.

 

[Floxy178]

This isn't really an anti-feat for continuous time

I'm just saying it's finite.

nor would I use Great River as a real anti feat. Also strings of fate is just explicitly stated to extend infinitely into past present and future as if it was a direction.

Iirc that's from Chained Isles? This could easily be a hyperbole given that we have pretty many such statements(infinite, endless, immeasurable, etc.). Anyway I don't think that statement can take precedence over us directly seeing representation of whole timeline being finite sized.

 

[Floxy178]

I see. Then I’m fine with Type 3 concepts and Type 2 for Absolute Laws.

If you can show that the Absolute Laws operate irregardless of whether or not the things dependent on them exist in the first place, then I guess I’m fine with Type 1 for them. (Like, if you erase all of space, the law of space is completely fine.)

From what I know, the Absolute Law of Death is the Shadow Realm, right? If you can prove that the Law of Death would exist even if you destroyed the Shadow Realm, then that’d be really good.

Though, there might be other ways of proving Type 1, but I think the ones above are the most cut and dry ways to do it.

We know that they created them even before existence. Whole reality was created after Absolute Laws already existed, and shaped by them. Shouldn't that be enough?