Miraculous: Conceptual Manipulation Downgrade + New Physiology

[Mr. Bambu]

Looking through the OP, I think it is basically sound. Has discussion since the OP covered any notable counterarguments? If not, I agree with the removal of Concept Manip.

 

[Lort15]

Yes, since they aren't able to manipulate their concepts.

I think this must be discussed with Twilight, Twilight was the one who added that could you ping Twilight?

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

I only included it on Gimmi’s page because, based on the context of Sass and how the kwamis’ powers work, there’s an episode where Sass explains that when a wish is made, it rewrites reality from scratch to accommodate that wish. Given that the kwamis are conceptual entities, this makes conceptual manipulation a plausible interpretation. So I believe it’s better to keep it listed as possible/likely?

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

I only included it on Gimmi’s page because, based on the context of Sass and how the kwamis’ powers work, there’s an episode where Sass explains that when a wish is made, it rewrites reality from scratch to accommodate that wish. Given that the kwamis are conceptual entities, this makes conceptual manipulation a plausible interpretation. So I believe it’s better to keep it listed as possible/likely?

Aehhh, as I say there no statments for concept was changed, it just Reality Warping, you need to prove that "If a concept is changed, the world is altered in some way to fit this new conceptual definition, though the extent of this varies by the type of concept being manipulated", but we only see Gimmi rewrote reality in order for the wish to come true.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Aehhh, as I say there no statments for concept was changed, it just Reality Warping, you need to prove that "If a concept is changed, the world is altered in some way to fit this new conceptual definition, though the extent of this varies by the type of concept being manipulated", but we only see Gimmi rewrote reality in order for the wish to come true.

I'm not asking for a definitive rating of Conceptual Manipulation, just a plausible one. Since they are conceptual entities, it's reasonable to assume they might be capable of altering concepts to some extent.

I’d prefer if we could give it a 'Possible' rating, provided everyone agrees. Otherwise, we can leave it out for now and revisit it once we have more context from future episodes?

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

I'm not asking for a definitive rating of Conceptual Manipulation, just a plausible one. Since they are conceptual entities, it's reasonable to assume they might be capable of altering concepts to some extent.

Hasty generalization, being a magical race who embodies a concepts is not enough, you need proof that they can change/destroy/create the concept not just abstract concept creatures

I’d prefer if we could give it a 'Possible' rating, provided everyone agrees. Otherwise, we can leave it out for now and revisit it once we have more context from future episodes?

It's not even possibly or likely, you need to prove they can change/destroy/create the concept

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

I agree with the removal of possible CM (Type 2), it's just outright Type 3. Their Immortality is Type 8

Also Kwamis are indeed avatars. They pretty much are the same being existing across every universe simultaneusly.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

About the page, I'll try to be quick.

• Madness Manipulation (Type 3; Holder can resist effects of unify two different Miraculouses at same time)
• Corruption, Mind Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, Morality Manipulation via willpower (Miraculous holders have the ability to resist Akuma, which transforming people into supervillains via negative emotions)

This depends on the Miraculous Holder on itself, not on them as Miraculous holders.

Minor miraculous owners must be wise about how and when they use their superpower because after it is used, the kwami begins to lose the energy needed to keep the transformation, and in five minutes, the Miraculous owner detransforms back to normal as the kwami emerges from the jewel. If they want to transform again, they need to help their kwami regain energy by feeding them.

"Minors" is a misleading term in this context. All current Miraculous holders are minors and none have time limiters - likewise, Luka and Juleka, despite being older than Marinette and Adrien, still had their time limiter on for longer than the latter two. You just need to have the enough vital energy.

However, they, too, must use extreme caution, since it's the kwamis that give their owners their powers and transformations. If they transform under these conditions, it's likely they won't be able to hold it for long, let alone give their owners their powers or their powers will be weakened.

This part is head canon. Mayura created Ladybug, who was supposed to be the most advanced and powerful Sentimonster ever created after being already weakened by the usage of broken Peacock Miraculous.

Since they use their voices to activate their superpowers and transformations, if an owner can't speak, then they can't summon their powers

This only apply to holders under the effect of the security seal. Once you've got your adult powers you can keep using your powers without calling out for them.

Fun fact: Up to this day, we don't actually have a name that calls out the Butterfly nor Peacock Miraculous Power.

Even though the quantum masking of the Miraculous works pretty well it's not always going to work as the magic only confuses human minds but not robots such as Uncanny Valley.

Depends on the type of robot. Markov for an instance cannot see throught the Quantum Masking.

It is revealed that when a Kwami gets a strong craving for a certain type of food, it can cause them to mad with hunger. The Kwami will do whatever it takes to get as much of the food as possible, they even go as far as to show themselves in front of humans and use their special superpowers, despite the potential disaster. To make matters worse, if the Miraculous holder transforms while their Kwami is in a food-hungry state, the extreme craving will pass on to the holder.

This is a flaw of Tikki. Not an species weaknesses.

 

[Robo432343]

why are you removing abstract existence (conceptual) from kwami's though??

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

This is enough for Type 8 if OP is interested in including it.

Also Kwamis are indeed avatars. They pretty much are the same being existing across every universe simultaneusly.

That's Multilocation.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

This is enough for Type 8 if OP is interested in including it.

Ok

That's Multilocation.

Will, no, in reality all Kwamis all over the universe have the same memory and mind of his alternate theirselves in all universes, not "same being existing across every universe simultaneusly".

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

why are you removing abstract existence (conceptual) from kwami's though??

They don't have Immortality Type 3 or 4/Regeneration or Self-Resurrection

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

About the page, I'll try to be quick.


This depends on the Miraculous Holder on itself, not on them as Miraculous holders.

We see multiple holders can resist Akuma by their willpower.

"Minors" is a misleading term in this context. All current Miraculous holders are minors and none have time limiters - likewise, Luka and Juleka, despite being older than Marinette and Adrien, still had their time limiter on for longer than the latter two. You just need to have the enough vital energy.

This part is head canon. Mayura created Ladybug, who was supposed to be the most advanced and powerful Sentimonster ever created after being already weakened by the usage of broken Peacock Miraculous.

This only apply to holders under the effect of the security seal. Once you've got your adult powers you can keep using your powers without calling out for them.

Fun fact: Up to this day, we don't actually have a name that calls out the Butterfly nor Peacock Miraculous Power.


Depends on the type of robot. Markov for an instance cannot see throught the Quantum Masking.



This is a flaw of Tikki. Not an species weaknesses.

@Lort15 soon would change this in another CRT

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

We see multiple holders can resist Akuma by their willpower.

That's not the same as Miraculous holders having the ability to resist akumatization because they are Miraculous holders. Queen Wasp, Shell Shock, Chat Blanc and Celesticat were all Akumatized, and Shadybug and Claw Noir were afraid of Monarch's Akuma thinking it was Betterfly's Kamiko.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Will, no, in reality all Kwamis all over the universe have the same memory and mind of his alternate theirselves in all universes, not "same being existing across every universe simultaneusly".

That's not what the video in the blog says. Is there some other scan?

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Also, because I don’t think I made myself clear with the CM Part. I agree with removing the Type 2 but keeping the Type 3. CM doesn’t comes from Kwamis being conceptual beings but about the context in which they are talking.

Gabriel ask for Orikko’s Sublimation (the ability to give yourself whatever power you want) to replace Fluff’s Time Traveling abilities. Sass and Xuppo explain that this is a no-no because a concept can only exist once in a universe, as such, using the power of another Kwami will always result on X concept not being the concept of X, but X concept being replication — which leads to Orikko being unable to use it by himself.

This means each Kwami’s power fall under their concept. How they affect the universe as such is what’s unclear.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

That's not what the video in the blog says. Is there some other scan?

This might help