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Miraculous: Conceptual Manipulation Downgrade + New Physiology

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Ultimate-Rex1

Ultimate-Rex1

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First: Conceptual Manipulation Downgrade
  • Possibly Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2; Each kwami exist as a conceptual being of their respective powers, with the example given for Conceptual Manipulation by Xuppu "Take Tikki as an example she is the kwami of creation, if there is another creation then it is not creation, it's replication" Xuppu, Sass and Orriko were trying to explain why Gabriel can't grant Tikki's power because it's being a concept, a concept only exist in the universe once and both Sass and Xuppu were reffering to the creation power aka Ladybug's power lucky charm as a concept.)
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So in Conceptual Manipulation page, it say:
  • Concept Alteration: The ability to manipulate, alter, or change concepts. By using this ability, concepts themselves can be changed in a variety of ways. The concept can have an object added to it, an object taken from it, or change the current principle of the concept. If a concept is changed, the world is altered in some way to fit this new conceptual definition, though the extent of this varies by the type of concept being manipulated.
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In scan there no statement say Ladybug or Cat Noir can change concept:
Holder doesn't really manipulating concept, and there no mention of concept power, as Orikko and Sass explain powers of Miraculous comes from Kwami, means that the power of miraculous comes from the concept and doesn't means concept powers
Gabriel: There! (to Orikko) You! You can grant me any power I want! (closes the Grimoire and walks toward Orikko) You will give me the power to travel through time!
Orikko: No, you're mistaken! Time travel is Fluff's power and I can't grant the power that already belongs to another Kwami!
Gabriel: Are you trying to deceive me??
Orikko: (nods) By all means! Read the Grimoire again!
(Gabriel reopens the Grimoire.)
Sass: Each Kwami represents a concept, and a concept can only exist once in the universe.
Xuppu: Too complicated, Sass! Let's use an example to make things simpler. Take Tikki, she is the Kwami of Creation, and creation is creation, and if there's another creation than creation, then it's not "creation", it's "replication"!
Gabriel: Then grant me the power to locate Ladybug and Cat Noir's Miraculous!
Orikko: Trouble is, that's not a power; that's a wish!
Xuppu: For instance, if I asked Santa for a pair of socks, that's a wish. But if I want Santa to grant me the power to knit socks, then it means Santa needs to know how to knit socks in the first place so he can teach me!
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Even if stated that can manipulate concept powers, isn't enough as it's "Type 2":
2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.
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As it say if concept was changed, then universe would change, but there no statement or scan shows us that the reality has changed after concept was changed or manipulated, so it should be removed it since there no statments for manipulate concept itself and downgrade Type 2 Conceptual to Type 3 Conceptual.

Also, as ActuallySpaceMan42 say it should be removed Abstract Existence Type 2 since Kwamis don't have any proof for Regeneration or Self-Resurrection, and no proof for manipulate their concept.
Second: New Abilities
vsbattles.fandom.com

Miraculous Physiology

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
This is end and I wish you a happy day.
Agree: @ActuallySpaceMan42 (Agree with CM removed & Miraculous Physiology), @DarkDragonMedeus (Same as ActuallySpaceMan), @Mr. Bambu (Agree with CM removed)
Disagree:
Neutral:
 
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The CM downgrade looks good.

Would you be willing to list what the changes are with the physiology page?
 
Dark_Soul20189 said:
I know that, what I wanna know is how much was already accepted, and what's new.
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Heh i guess resistance to mind, corruption etc, resistance power mimicry immo type 9 and aca 3 also possesion, these are the ones aren't accepted yet the others are accepted already in some previous crts as you can see in the profiles
 
KaramcaS said:
Aren't Miraculous Holders resistant to Cat Noir's Cataclysm Deconstruction? They only take a lot of damage and get tired, but they don't turn to dust
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No, the effects of Cataclysm take time to kill holders, like Cat Noir and Monarch.
 
Well I was eventually gonna rebunk the whole thing, but it'd cause a lot of confusion and I may have came across some cm1 arguments but that's gonna be in a sperate CRT (that if I have some leisure time) anyway I found this statement said by master Fu


Marinette: What would happen if someone possessed Cat Noir's ring and Ladybug's earrings, Master?

Master Fu: Then the bearer could use them conjointly. And with a special invocation, obtain the ultimate power. The one that shapes reality.

Marinette: Ultimate power? Shape reality?! Wait, what does that mean?

Master Fu: Well, basically, it can make any one wish come true.

Isn't this literally textbook cm2? At least it should be a solid cm2 for both Tikki and plagg and a possibly for the rest of the kwamis even if the holders don't have to manipulate such concepts, or am I missing some things?
 
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CelestialVortex01 said:
Well I was eventually gonna rebunk the whole thing, but it'd cause a lot of confusion and I may have came across some cm1 arguments but that's gonna be in a sperate CRT (that if I have some leisure time) anyway I found this statement said by master Fu


Marinette: What would happen if someone possessed Cat Noir's ring and Ladybug's earrings, Master?

Master Fu: Then the bearer could use them conjointly. And with a special invocation, obtain the ultimate power. The one that shapes reality.

Marinette: Ultimate power? Shape reality?! Wait, what does that mean?

Master Fu: Well, basically, it can make any one wish come true.

Isn't this literally textbook cm2? At least it should be a solid cm2 for both Tikki and plagg and a possibly for the rest of the kwamis even if the holders don't have to manipulate such concepts, or am I missing some things?
Click to expand...

There no statments say that even say User would change concept, which would change reality, It's an effect when someone turns to change something in reality through Gimmi, to balance in peace.

It need proof "If a concept is changed, the world is altered in some way to fit this new conceptual definition, though the extent of this varies by the type of concept being manipulated", and scan don't really say anything about it
 
Ultimate-Rex1 said:
There no statments say that even say User would change concept, which would change reality, It's an effect when someone turns to change something in reality through Gimmi, to balance in peace.

It need proof "If a concept is changed, the world is altered in some way to fit this new conceptual definition, though the extent of this varies by the type of concept being manipulated", and scan don't really say anything about it
Click to expand...

meh sure then, I might be misremembering things but ima dive deep into the episodes later, but I disagree with its complete removal, cm3 seems sufficient for now at least, also the physiology page looks awesome and I always wondered why the kwamis didn't have a profile of their own
 
Everything else seems fine.
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
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After holders use Miraculous powers, like Lucky Charm, holders would lose their miraculous powers, in order to get it back, holder will need to feed his their Kwami in order to restore their energy, but when holder become adult, Kwamis would don't need feed to restore their energy and holder will be able to use miraculous powers as he pleases.
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Everything else seems fine.
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They live in their own dimension (non-physical reality) and no being can see them, but with Miraculous they make them interact with a physical reality.
 
Ultimate-Rex1 said:
After holders use Miraculous powers, like Lucky Charm, holders would lose their miraculous powers, in order to get it back, holder will need to feed his their Kwami in order to restore their energy, but when holder become adult, Kwamis would don't need feed to restore their energy and holder will be able to use miraculous powers as he pleases.
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Even when Holders become adults, the kwamis still need energy restore, but this time they get it from the Holder's energy instead of an extra meal.
 
Type 2: Nutritional Self-Sustenance: The ability to survive indefinitely without food or water, or an equivalent necessary to fulfil nutritional and solvent roles in an individual's body. This may provide resistance to poisons.
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Ehhhh, I think Self-Sustenance Type 1 should be still use.
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Scans?
Click to expand...
Tikki: When Plagg cataclysmed his Miraculous, the ring, (Marinette is seen running towards the crater and sneaks in.) he destroyed his only means to communicate with the human world
Click to expand...
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
As for the communication thing, that doesn't mean that they use avatars, just means they can't interact or communicate with the human world.
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It's avatars, and they hide their real forms from beings and can't be seen or interacted with, but with Miraculous, they get bodies that make them interact with human world.

 
Ultimate-Rex1 said:
It's avatars, and they hide their real forms from beings and can't be seen or interacted with, but with Miraculous, they get bodies that make them interact with human world.
Click to expand...

They originally couldn't be seen or interacted with in their first forms, let alone these ones, so it's not evidence of avatar creation.
 
Ultimate-Rex1 said:
It's avatars, that's why Gabriel said to Plagg and Tikki to showing their real shapes.
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They quite literally transformed, which is Transformation. It's not like their higher selves came down from another dimension; their bodies just changed. And those same bodies have never been described as avatars, just that they can't interact with the world without assistance.
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
They quite literally transformed, which is Transformation. It's not like their higher selves came down from another dimension; their bodies just changed. And those same bodies have never been described as avatars, just that they can't interact with the world without assistance.
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It stated that Kwami aren't from human world (What he meant here was Human world.), they are magic, and this isn't real form, these shapes come from Miraculous.


 
Again, none of this proves avatars. True Forms can refer to transformations, coming from beyond the world is not evidence of Avatar Creation, and the last statement just states what we already know, that they're usually impossible to interact with.

Anyway, I'm not seeing any convincing arguments on this matter, so I'll be leaving this here.
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Again, none of this proves avatars. True Forms can refer to transformations, coming from beyond the world is not evidence of Avatar Creation, and the last statement just states what we already know, that they're usually impossible to interact with.

Anyway, I'm not seeing any convincing arguments on this matter, so I'll be leaving this here.
Click to expand...
OK, you can please review this to be consistent with AE?
Immortality (Type 5, 8 & 9; Kwamis can't be destroyed, as they are magic, quantic and abstract creatures, they can't kill being connected to the concept, who they embody it.)
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I already reviewed the Immortality and AE. Abstract Existence should be changed to Type 2, and they only seem to have Immortality Type 1 to me.
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
I already reviewed the Immortality and AE. Abstract Existence should be changed to Type 2, and they only seem to have Immortality Type 1 to me.
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The problem here is that Kwamis doesn't have Immortality Type 3 or 4 or 8 to be able to resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it, but it stated that Kwami can't be destroyed as they related to their concepts, which it should be Immortality Type 8 & 9
Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it.
Click to expand...
 
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