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Greenverse Major Revisions - Part 1: Cosmology.

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If we were to accept the Court of the Holies as High 1-A, wouldn't that mean God, being above and beyond them and incapable of being defined by concepts like 'real' and 'unreal' (that actually defines their hierarchy dimension) or everything below, would qualify as 0? That would essentially mean He is distinct from everything within the High 1-A realm.

Given Udlmaster's arguments, I think his reasoning is reasonable.
 
Jeeeeepil123 said:
Is this CRT accepted? Or we need 3 staff input on this?
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In order to ensure that all revisions are thoroughly reviewed and approved, it is necessary for a minimum of two staff members to sign off on any proposed changes. The concluding evaluations must be handled by Thread Moderators, Administrators, and Bureaucrats, who should make an effort to base their evaluations on valid arguments, not personal opinions.
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2 should be enough
Jeeeeepil123 said:
If we were to accept the Court of the Holies as High 1-A, wouldn't that mean God, being above and beyond them and incapable of being defined by concepts like 'real' and 'unreal' (that actually defines their hierarchy dimension) or everything below, would qualify as 0? That would essentially mean He is distinct from everything within the High 1-A realm.

Given Udlmaster's arguments, I think his reasoning is reasonable.
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I dont feel like tackling Tier 0 God rn i merely wish to have this accepted and get my other threads for it going as well
 
What are the staff conclusions here so far, and what are the reasons for them? 🙏
 
@SweetDao

Your input would also be appreciated here. 🙏
 
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Okay, and what about the currently listed scaling in the first post of this thread? 🙏
 
Okay, so you, FinePoint, SpaceMan, and Udlmaster all agree with each other here currently? 🙏
 
I told RitsuØ1 to come and look at the thread. He will be the final staff member to agree/disagree
 
Rutæhh said:
@FinePoint we require ur input
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If I recall, my evaluation was 1-A for the layers of dimensions within the Chronoflow since each one is more real than the last.

And then beyond that, I was okay with High 1-A for Outside the Chronoflow since it was stated to be beyond the previous concepts and contain both higher and lower dimensions which didn't exist before, implying a new system just of the same name (dimensions).

And then God is higher into High 1-A or at least High 1-A regardless. Tier 0 was discussed via him transcending even the metric of differentiation (realness) but ultimately denied due to a lack of evidence of being beyond all differentiation, and not just that specific one- therefore not being dis-proven but not really being proven either.
 
I strongly disagree with the proposed tiers.

First of all, let’s take a bit of context about how the cosmology works in the verse, which is actually very well established in one of the scans included in the blog:

There are many worlds,' Gayle said patiently, 'some so far away we can't even see them from where we are. Think of a pyramid, with the material worlds at the base, growing more strange and magical as they rise, until they become so unreal, so far above and beyond reality, that they leave the restrictions of matter behind and become immaterial. Spiritual realms, with gods and devils and everything in between. And right at the top of the pyramid, beyond such narrow concepts as life and death, real and unreal: The Creator. Far above and beyond the worlds we know, are worlds we cannot know. The shimmering realms, the glory plains, the Courts of the Holy. Can you imagine what it must have been like for Angel to descend from such heights, to mire herself in the material worlds? From pure thought and spirit to flesh and blood and bone? From marvel to meat? Still; the most important question concerning Angel is, did she fall, or was she pushed?'
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Based on the information in this scan, we basically know that the cosmology can be simplified as a pyramid: with the material at the base and God at the top. It’s a progression from flesh and spirit to pure thought and beyond.

Now then, we can see that the "material world" itself has a sort of “sub-hierarchy,” so to speak, where the higher you go, the stranger, more magical, and more unreal the realms become, until eventually they leave behind the constraints of the material altogether.

This is extremely important because, based on what’s established in the blog, these realms still belong to the material:

1) The Nightside
2)The Chronoflow

Nightside

Starting with the Nightside, the OP’s blog proposes that it’s a realm with 27 layers in 1-A because it mentions beings that are “more real” than others.

Nightside - 27 layers into 1-A (The Nighside is a world within a world, created by Lilith and contains at least five extra spatial dimensions and up to twenty-seven dimensions which are realer than each other.)
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However, let’s remember once again that we’re still within the material part of the cosmology, these are higher geometric dimensions, which means the idea of qualitative jumps like the ones VSBW requires for 1-A is completely absurd at this stage.

That statement is being used metaphorically to describe existential differences and the inherent complexity that comes with being from a higher world (since, let’s not forget, a higher dimension already represents an ontological leap in properties, you absolutely don’t need R > F for that).

And the proof of this is right there in the same scan that’s being used to argue for 1-A:

Something finally materialised in the Great Auction Hall with us, so huge and powerful it hurt our minds even to think about it, drawing everything towards it like a massive gravity well. It was too Real for our limited reality; so Real it sucked everything else into it.
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Something unbearably vast descending into our reality. Something so impossibly big it had to compress itself to fit into our narrow Space/Time continuum
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Basically, something from a higher dimension can descend into a lower reality, and the quality cited as making it difficult for it to enter the continuous space-time is its size (which is why it had to be compacted in order to descend).

This completely cuts off any claim to 1-A, since at those levels the very notion of conventional “size” is already completely transcended.

The second statement used to argue for 1-A is this one:

People became black-and-white two- dimensional photographs, and finally just chalk drawings, until all they were was sucked into the gravity well. Stripped of everything that made them real.
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But this doesn’t prove 1-A either. For a higher-dimensional being, of course the lower dimension is going to appear as a flat two-dimensional plane, and “stripped of everything that made them real” is an empty statement, it doesn’t actually mean anything as stand-alone and, as we saw earlier, it's just referring to a standard dimensional difference.

Honestly, the evidence here is incredibly thin. If this were accepted, then a whole bunch of other verses that metaphorically portray dimensional differences as “flat 2D planes” would suddenly jump to 1-A for no real reason.

So then, what tier should the Nightside have?

Honestly, it seems more like an alternate dimension to the conventional mortal world.

Citing the blog:

The Nightside is, on earth but not of it,[16] a world within a world[16] created by Lilith so as she can rule without interference of heaven or hell,[17] the only place where things are freed from fate[18] and the natural free will given to all creatures.[19] It is a place where the concepts such as life and death are flimsy[20] and the rules of reality are not exactly fixed to the goalpost[20], with dimensional barriers[21] that rub against the normal world.
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Basically, it’s a world separated by dimensional barriers. How high does it scale? At least to 5-D (Low 1-C).

The scan in the OP’s blog that supposedly supports 27-D doesn’t necessarily imply that the Nightside itself contains that dimensional structure, it just mentions a 27-D being that descended and granted a title to a being from the Nightside or something along those lines (which, again, is yet another higher-dimensional being descending into lower dimensions, completely breaking any 1-A argument).

Giving the benefit of the doubt, and considering the Nightside does seem to be (as the name suggests) some kind of reflection or shadow of the universe/world (and that world appears to be at least 27-D) then maybe 1-B could be workable. I have no problem with that so far.

Chronoflow

Now then, the Chronoflow is simply a quantum multiverse (which even the Nightside is a part of) so what we’re dealing with here, for now, is an infinite quantum multiverse made up of universes that each have a normal side and a Nightside.

Both sides are potentially 27-D (1-B).

Now that we’ve covered the Chronoflow, let’s move on to the immaterial.

We know the Outside is what lies beyond the Chronoflow, a level where conceptual beings reside, meaning materiality no longer exists at this point.

Outside

This is by far the most interesting part so far.

In the blog, the OP assigns it a ridiculous tier (High 1-A) basically just for being beyond the material world but based on the scans presented, that’s an exaggeration.

The Outside is simply a space that exists beyond the three cardinal dimensions and beyond time (the Chronoflow). It’s the final threshold before the immaterial truly begins. In other words, it’s part of what that first scan was referring to.

Spiritual realms, with gods and devils and everything in between.

The shimmering realms, the glory plains, the Courts of the Holy. Can you imagine what it must have been like for Angel to descend from such heights, to mire herself in the material worlds? From pure thought and spirit to flesh and blood and bone? From marvel to meat?
Click to expand...

Since the Primals are defined as those who were present in the first days of creation (and they’re entities from the Outside) it makes sense in my head to interpret the Outside as referring to everything that lies beyond the physical world.

That’s a reasonable interpretation, though it could also just be the preliminary stage before fully transcending the illusion.

Either way, since this realm is explicitly beyond all geometric dimensions of the material world and is described as a conceptual plane, I think Low 1-A is fair in this case.

The Reality Behind Reality

This, in my opinion, is where 1-A truly begins, where everything below it is trivialized as an insubstantial illusion. The avatars of the entities from this plane are merely shadows cast onto a surface, very much like the gods of the Sphere of the Gods in DC Comics.

Heaven – Court of Holies

This is the plane of the angels, those closest to God. Based on the information provided, it’s not possible to define an exact tier, but it should logically be some number of layers above 1-A, since it clearly stands above the lower plane and the other worlds mentioned in the statement at the beginning of this message.

The shimmering realms, the glory plains, the Courts of the Holy. Can you imagine what it must have been like for Angel to descend from such heights, to mire herself in the material worlds? From pure thought and spirit to flesh and blood and bone? From marvel to meat?
Click to expand...

God

The only being in the verse that should be rated as High 1-A. Explicitly beyond all qualities and everything that makes up the entire "pyramid" of the cosmology.

And right at the top of the pyramid, beyond such narrow concepts as life and death, real and unreal: The Creator.
Click to expand...

TIERS

So basically, the tiers should be:

Universe → 1-B (27-D)
Nightside → 1-B (27D)
Cronoflow -> 1-B (Likely 28-D)
Outside → Low 1-A
The Reality Behind Reality → 1-A (baseline)
The Courts of the Holy / Heaven → 1-A (unspecified number of layers above baseline)
God → High 1-A
 
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FinePoint said:
And then God is higher into High 1-A or at least High 1-A regardless. Tier 0 was discussed via him transcending even the metric of differentiation (realness) but ultimately denied due to a lack of evidence of being beyond all differentiation, and not just that specific one- therefore not being dis-proven but not really being proven either.
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Yeah, I’ll make a thread about him, since he’s not often spoken about so it’ll be a lot of “explaining by proxy”.
 
Udlmaster said:
Yeah, I’ll make a thread about him, since he’s not often spoken about so it’ll be a lot of “explaining by proxy”.
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Well, outside of a direct statement, there's technically no way to prove they're beyond all differentiation.

However, if there's a bunch of other examples of being beyond other types and systems, it could potentially be extrapolated with increasing confidence.
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
However, let’s remember once again that we’re still within the material part of the cosmology, these are higher geometric dimensions, which means the idea of qualitative jumps like the ones VSBW requires for 1-A is completely absurd at this stage.
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This isn't true. I've already scaled the cosmology with Ultima's input in the past and he also confirmed the that Nightside's dimensions would be 1-A, the important part of 1-A isn't that it has nothing to do with material reality and everything to do with Qualitative superiority.


ExcelsisBerny said:
Basically, something from a higher dimension can descend into a lower reality, and the quality cited as making it difficult for it to enter the continuous space-time is its size (which is why it had to be compacted in order to descend).
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How else would a being from a qualitatively higher reality descend into a lower one? They "download" themselves into a body which conforms to that reality, or as we often call it, an Avatar.

Furthermore, you focus on the "size" aspect, arguing it "completely cuts off any claim to 1-A, since at those levels the very notion of conventional “size” is already completely transcended." The reason it's too big, too vast, and requires compression isn't just because it's geometrically larger. It's because its degree of reality is fundamentally incompatible with the "limited reality" of the lower plane.

The phrase "too Real for our limited reality" directly points to a qualitative difference in existence. It's not just "bigger" in a spatial sense; it's more real in an ontological sense. This concept of "realness" or "degree of existence" is a cornerstone of qualitative superiority.

ExcelsisBerny said:
Honestly, the evidence here is incredibly thin. If this were accepted, then a whole bunch of other verses that metaphorically portray dimensional differences as “flat 2D planes” would suddenly jump to 1-A for no real reason.
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I find this particular colouring to be arbitrary, as we cover these things on a case by case basis anyway.

ExcelsisBerny said:
In the blog, the OP assigns it a ridiculous tier (High 1-A) basically just for being beyond the material world but based on the scans presented, that’s an exaggeration.
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Again, this colouring and passive aggressive mocking should be cut out, especially as this isn't just some random assertion but one backed up by staff, myself and, in the past, Ultima's view on Discord.

Regardless of the backing it has, the belittling and condescension should have be left in the draft.
ExcelsisBerny said:
Universe → 1-B (27-D)
Nightside → 1-B (27D)
Cronoflow -> 1-B (Likely 28-D)
Outside → Low 1-A
The Reality Behind Reality → 1-A (baseline)
The Courts of the Holy / Heaven → 1-A (unspecified number of layers above baseline)
God → High 1-A
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Frankly, I'm not sure on what there is to argue about, as your argumentation can be summed up as "I disagree, this is what it is".

There's not even any provided logic to it outside of the argument at the start which is refuted by the very person who designed the system having already agreed with out points in the past.

What else is there to argue about?

Generally, I just found this to be really unpleasant, especially as there was a lot of passive aggressiveness in the tone of the post that, frankly, just didn't need to be there and only hurts the over-all points or lack there of.
 
Udlmaster said:
This isn't true. I've already scaled the cosmology with Ultima's input in the past and he also confirmed the that Nightside's dimensions would be 1-A, the important part of 1-A isn't that it has nothing to do with material reality and everything to do with Qualitative superiority.
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With all due respect, I don't care about Ultima's input unless he actually shows up in the post and responds to my arguments personally. None of this disproves my analysis. Let's not act like Ultima is the supreme god of truth on this wiki.

Udlmaster said:
How else would a being from a qualitatively higher reality descend into a lower one? They "download" themselves into a body which conforms to that reality, or as we often call it, an Avatar.
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Where is it stated? In the scans, the only ones I see mentioned as using avatars are the beings from the Outside, something I’ve already pointed out, by the way.

Udlmaster said:
Furthermore, you focus on the "size" aspect, arguing it "completely cuts off any claim to 1-A, since at those levels the very notion of conventional “size” is already completely transcended." The reason it's too big, too vast, and requires compression isn't just because it's geometrically larger. It's because its degree of reality is fundamentally incompatible with the "limited reality" of the lower plane.
Click to expand...

This argument is self-defeating, because if the higher-plane being is truly 1-A, and in order to enter a lower plane it must create an avatar (which logically means the avatar isn’t 1-A), then the characters from the lower reality have no reason whatsoever to describe it as “too real for our minds.”

You’re basically contradicting yourself.

Udlmaster said:
The phrase "too Real for our limited reality" directly points to a qualitative difference in existence. It's not just "bigger" in a spatial sense; it's more real in an ontological sense. This concept of "realness" or "degree of existence" is a cornerstone of qualitative superiority.
Click to expand...

The difference between higher dimensions is still ontological, yes, but not to the degree required for 1-A. I already established that in my response.

Udlmaster said:
Again, this colouring and passive aggressive mocking should be cut out, especially as this isn't just some random assertion but one backed up by staff, myself and, in the past, Ultima's view on Discord.
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??????????????

Udlmaster said:
Frankly, I'm not sure on what there is to argue about, as your argumentation can be summed up as "I disagree, this is what it is".
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Incredibly hypocritical of you to say that, considering I laid out a concrete line of reasoning for everything I said in my response, while all you've done here is further disprove the 1-A claim (and pure authority fallacy).

I suggest you tone it down a bit.
 
I agree with Udlmaster's statement.

I prefer High 1-A+ God because of things:



God is Beyond Real and Unreal, but that won't work on tier 0 for some things.

If you look at High 1-A, this is what you see:

Characters or objects who transcend 1-A characters in the same vein that 1-A characters transcend the rest of the system. That is to say: If there is a hierarchy of 1-A layers, each of which operates within the same framework, with the same "algorithm" dictating the difference between them, a High 1-A character would transcend the framework entirely, and instead operate on a different, higher hierarchy, governed by another, likewise higher algorithm. In other words, whereas 1-A is a qualitative superiority, High 1-A represents a "meta"-qualitative superiority.

Similarly to 1-A, this tier can be generalized to higher levels of existence. Just as 1-A encompasses qualitative hierarchies, so too can there be meta-qualitative hierarchies. In addition, there can also be "meta"-meta-qualitative superiorities, and so forth, endlessly.

The apex of this tier, represented also by a "+" modifier in their Attack Potency section (High Outerverse level+), corresponds to characters whose power encompasses meta-qualities, meta-meta-qualities, and any and all conceivable extensions of this process, being on a which in which their power influences the space of all logically possible worlds ("Logical space," where the laws governing it are the three laws of thought), being characters who either have the ability to actualize arbitrarily large worlds, or embody the framework of such worlds itself.



God cannot be 0 because he can grant the character his powers to defeat Lilith. And since he is beyond all possible worlds, That may can be a High 1-A or a + thing.
 
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