Something From The Nightside | Greenverse Discussion Thread

[Udlmaster]

Speaking of Lilith, would Excalibur and Gaia be above her?

Gaia probably, Excalibur, probably not.

We know other Transient Beings and Angels fall at her feet, so it's a toss up.

Lilith said that Merlin, with all his power, might have a chance against her, and Excalibur has been shown to be just as powerful as the Antichrist Merlin.

It's a bit more symbolic then that. Arthur and Artur had power with Excalibur because they were the rightful heir but as we saw with others using it, it has no power over Merlin and while it could penetrate some of his defences, it required the ghosts of all the people who died in Sinister Albion to pierce all of them.

It's also important that Merlin is only talking about her "glorified sock puppet" avatar and not her real self which she said she'd bring in when she's cleansed the Nightside.

I suppose each aspect of Gaia is as powerful as Lilith? And in her true form, where all aspects are united, she must be far above.

We have no idea how they'd match up but it's probably still Lilith who'd win that battle, True form to True Form

 

[Quasar002]

Yes but this was when John amped the sword using souls to bring about the Light of Creation which can destroy everything and make it anew

Talking about "let there be light," it's true that Excalibur, in its entirety, is above the speaking weapon, right? I mean, Excalibur can recreate "let there be light," while the speaking weapon can uncreate or modify the echoes of "let there be light."

 

[Quasar002]

We know other Transient Beings and Angels fall at her feet, so it's a toss up.

Excalibur, when used with all its power (harnessing the essence of light), shouldn’t it be superior to the Transient Beings? I mean, an explosion from a soul can harm outer beings, but John wielding Excalibur wasn't even hurt, so it seems to imply superiority. Although, Lilith is still far above the Transient Beings anyway.

It's also important that Merlin is only talking about her "glorified sock puppet" avatar and not her real self which she said she'd bring in when she's cleansed the Nightside.

Yes, that's true.

We have no idea how they'd match up but it's probably still Lilith who'd win that battle, True form to True Form

I understand.

 

[Rutæhh]

Talking about "let there be light," it's true that Excalibur, in its entirety, is above the speaking weapon, right? I mean, Excalibur can recreate "let there be light," while the speaking weapon can uncreate or modify the echoes of "let there be light."

yeah pretty easily. The Light>anything that isnt the Creator

 

[Udlmaster]

Excalibur, when used with all its power (harnessing the essence of light), shouldn’t it be superior to the Transient Beings?

We don't know for sure but probably.

I mean, an explosion from a soul can harm outer beings, but John wielding Excalibur wasn't even hurt, so it seems to imply superiority.

That's because he had special permission to use Excalibur, Stark was hurt by using Excalibur when he wasn't chosen to do so but as Gaea kept on saying, and everyone else, he had "special dispensation" not superiority.

The Light>anything that isnt the Creator

Not entirely.

It depends on when you say "God said 'let there be Light' and there was" took place.

If you say it happened at the birth of the Universe, which seems like the most likely case, then there's beings, such as Outsiders, who predate the world and all those in it.

We don't even know how the rules of reality even worked back then, Time and laws were unfixed back then, so realistically, Adam and Lilith could have existed as God started the Universe

 

[Quasar002]

We don't know for sure but probably.


That's because he had special permission to use Excalibur, Stark was hurt by using Excalibur when he wasn't chosen to do so but as Gaea kept on saying, and everyone else, he had "special dispensation" not superiority.

Oh, yes. I forgot to mention that I am referring to those chosen as Arthur or John Taylor.

Not entirely.

It depends on when you say "God said 'let there be Light' and there was" took place.

If you say it happened at the birth of the Universe, which seems like the most likely case, then there's beings, such as Outsiders, who predate the world and all those in it.

We don't even know how the rules of reality even worked back then, Time and laws were unfixed back then, so realistically, Adam and Lilith could have existed as God started the Universe

I think it's possible to get a sense of the extent of "let there be light" based on the secret names that are echoes of "let there be light." I don't know if there is any evidence that spiritual entities like angels or beings from the outside have these secret names... But at the very least, the avatars of angels in the material world can be unmade.

 

[Udlmaster]

Oh, yes. I forgot to mention that I am referring to those chosen as Arthur or John Taylor.

Oh, I wouldn't put them in the same tier. We know Excalibur in Arthur's hand was far more powerful than it was with anyone else's grip.

We know John's allowed to use it, but it's not as strong as Arthur.

Excalibur, when used with all its power (harnessing the essence of light), shouldn’t it be superior to the Transient Beings?

Also, I knew I remembered this, but I had to double check.

Lucifer, an Angel, broke Excalibur when it was used against him. We don't get any info on if Lucifer is a particularly strong Angel either.

 

[Quasar002]

Lucifer, an Angel, broke Excalibur when it was used against him. We don't get any info on if Lucifer is a particularly strong Angel either.

Yeah, really. I think angels, by their very nature, are above Excalibur.


Can anyone tell me if all of Simon Green's works take place in the same universe? I don't know how far the canon extends.

 

[Udlmaster]

Yeah, really. I think angels, by their very nature, are above Excalibur.


Can anyone tell me if all of Simon Green's works take place in the same universe? I don't know how far the canon extends.

Secret Histories and Nightside take place in the same verse, and I think 1 other does too.

 

[Rutæhh]

Im pretty sure Forest Kingdom and Deathstalkers are a part of the larger canon as well.

 

[Quasar002]

Secret Histories and Nightside take place in the same verse, and I think 1 other does too.

Im pretty sure Forest Kingdom and Deathstalkers are a part of the larger canon as well.

Ghostfinders as well, right?

 

[Rutæhh]

yeah Ghost Finder, Drinking Midnight wine and Shadows Fall as well. I forgot a few

 

[Quasar002]

yeah Ghost Finder, Drinking Midnight wine and Shadows Fall as well. I forgot a few

I’ve been reading Drinking Midnight Wine, and in this book, a lot of interesting information is revealed about the hierarchy.

For example, one can think of the hierarchy as a pyramid:

'There are many worlds,' Gayle said patiently, 'some so far away we can't even see them from where we are. Think of a pyramid, with the material worlds at the base, growing more strange and magical as they rise, until they become so unreal, so far above and beyond reality, that they leave the restrictions of matter behind and become immaterial. Spiritual realms, with gods and devils and everything in between. And right at the top of the pyramid, beyond such narrow concepts as life and death, real and unreal: The Creator. Far above and beyond the worlds we know, are worlds we cannot know. The shimmering realms, the glory plains, the Courts of the Holy. Can you imagine what it must have been like for Angel to descend from such heights, to mire herself in the material worlds? From pure thought and spirit to flesh and blood and bone?

'Not if you like living,' said Gayle, thinking hard. 'We're dealing with the immaterial here... the higher realities, the shimmering realms, the Courts of the Holy. You really don't want to go there. Especially not with your attitude.

Magic is not illusion. Mystery is the reality beyond the reality you know, the world from which your world unfolds. The real world is the more subtle of the two realms. “So, which came first?” asked Toby. “Veritie or Mysterie?” “Which came first, you or your shadow?” asked Gayle. “They’re just two aspects of the same thing. Look, you’re getting the easy-reader version. You’re not ready to wade too deep into philosophical waters.”

It is confirmed that Excalibur is inferior to the hob, the serpent’s son. And it is also inferior to Angel (Uriel), who is an angel reduced from the immaterial to the material by God.

Gaia, Luna, and the Serpent in the Sun seem to operate on the same level of existence, although the Serpent is more powerful and older than Gaia and Luna.

Furthermore, ley lines are mentioned as the building blocks of the world, God’s architectural blueprint, as well as Gaia’s force. I think there's plenty of material to create an interesting profile for God.

 

[Udlmaster]

I’ve been reading Drinking Midnight Wine, and in this book, a lot of interesting information is revealed about the hierarchy.

For example, one can think of the hierarchy as a pyramid:







It is confirmed that Excalibur is inferior to the hob, the serpent’s son. And it is also inferior to Angel (Uriel), who is an angel reduced from the immaterial to the material by God.

Gaia, Luna, and the Serpent in the Sun seem to operate on the same level of existence, although the Serpent is more powerful and older than Gaia and Luna.

Furthermore, ley lines are mentioned as the building blocks of the world, God’s architectural blueprint, as well as Gaia’s force. I think there's plenty of material to create an interesting profile for God.

Most of this is consistent, so that's good.

I'm interested in seeing the stuff on Hob being above Gale

 

[Quasar002]

Most of this is consistent, so that's good.

I'm interested in seeing the stuff on Hob being above Gale

Hob is only superior to Gayle in her pre-aspect state. It's kind of like Gayle was extremely weakened during 99% of the book, since she wasn’t using her aspect (Gaia), where she becomes the Earth itself in a metaphysical sense. It's something like:

Gaia > Gayle with the aspect > Hob > Weakened Gayle

But good quotes about Hob include:

He is one of the powers and dominions

He is above an angel reduced to the material world

Above Excalibur

He is considered the weapon and instrument of the serpent in the world of men (similar to the Antichrist/Merlin and Satan)

He is considered far more than a sorcerer. So one could say Hob >> any sorcerer. Perhaps with the exception of Merlin, because Merlin isn’t just a sorcerer.

He must be one of the most powerful beings in the material world based on these quotes and feats.

 

[Udlmaster]

Hob is only superior to Gayle in her pre-aspect state. It's kind of like Gayle was extremely weakened during 99% of the book, since she wasn’t using her aspect (Gaia), where she becomes the Earth itself in a metaphysical sense. It's something like:

Gaia > Gayle with the aspect > Hob > Weakened Gayle

But good quotes about Hob include:

Seems like he's a Walking Man then.

In Just Another Judgement Day, they mention there's a Walking Man for the Adversary too, John brings it up when he's talking about getting them to fight each other.

 

[Quasar002]

Seems like he's a Walking Man then.

In Just Another Judgement Day, they mention there's a Walking Man for the Adversary too, John brings it up when he's talking about getting them to fight each other.

Yes, it's quite possible. There's a quote in the book stating that the Walking Man once confronted the hob in the past, but wasn't able to kill him. The book doesn't go into detail about it, but it's known that there was some kind of clash between the two, with the hob managing to escape alive.

 

[Rutæhh]

I’ve been reading Drinking Midnight Wine, and in this book, a lot of interesting information is revealed about the hierarchy.

For example, one can think of the hierarchy as a pyramid:

Yeah theres also this statement about the Unreal seeing the Real as mere chalk. The Unreal comparing the Real to mere chalk, shadow and leaves behind all restriction from it makes this blantant 1-A to 1-A+ with the Dead Boy statement

Since i have free time now I'll do a few things for the verse

 

[Udlmaster]

Yeah theres also this statement about the Unreal seeing the Real as mere chalk. The Unreal comparing the Real to mere chalk, shadow and leaves behind all restriction from it makes this blantant 1-A to 1-A+ with the Dead Boy statement

Since i have free time now I'll do a few things for the verse

Same thing happens with entities wayyy further down.

Psychonaughts also have the same effect.

 

[Quasar002]

Yeah theres also this statement about the Unreal seeing the Real as mere chalk. The Unreal comparing the Real to mere chalk, shadow and leaves behind all restriction from it makes this blantant 1-A to 1-A+ with the Dead Boy statement

Since i have free time now I'll do a few things for the verse

Yes, that's fine too. By the way, don’t these references to immaterial beings not understanding the concepts of life, death, existence, and so on... imply some form of non-duality? As well as Type 5 immortality, due to not understanding the concept of death?

 

[Udlmaster]

Yes, that's fine too. By the way, don’t these references to immaterial beings not understanding the concepts of life, death, existence, and so on... imply some form of non-duality? As well as Type 5 immortality, due to not understanding the concept of death?

They just don't experience them.

 

[Rutæhh]

theres a way to get ND and NEP for anybody who transcends the material world and more importantly human thought

 

[Quasar002]

theres a way to get ND and NEP for anybody who transcends the material world and more importantly human thought

How?

 

[Rutæhh]

the material world runs on rules, restrictions and certainties which include dualities and whatever "her power or not" or this means (i had originally thought them to be logical negations but after some research they arent). the thing is these rules are actually concepts and laws humans created through the practice of science. these concepts could also be Jungian as well

so what i would argue is that the material world possess conceptual dual systems which are jungian and since certain creatures like Outsiders transcend human concepts they should thus be granted ND 2

 

[Quasar002]

the material world runs on rules, restrictions and certainties which include dualities and whatever "her power or not" or this means (i had originally thought them to be logical negations but after some research they arent). the thing is these rules are actually concepts and laws humans created through the practice of science. these concepts could also be Jungian as well

so what i would argue is that the material world possess conceptual dual systems which are jungian and since certain creatures like Outsiders transcend human concepts they should thus be granted ND 2

That's quite explicit. So practically all immaterial beings will have ND 2, nice.

 

[Udlmaster]

the material world runs on rules, restrictions and certainties which include dualities and whatever "her power or not" or this means (i had originally thought them to be logical negations but after some research they arent). the thing is these rules are actually concepts and laws humans created through the practice of science. these concepts could also be Jungian as well

so what i would argue is that the material world possess conceptual dual systems which are jungian and since certain creatures like Outsiders transcend human concepts they should thus be granted ND 2

You can add in too that people in the Nightside have Type 4 Acausality.

Walker basically says the Nightside doesn't have proper Cause-effect, saying "Things are bad enough in the Cause-effect world"

 

[Rutæhh]

You can add in too that people in the Nightside have Type 4 Acausality.

Walker basically says the Nightside doesn't have proper Cause-effect, saying "Things are bad enough in the Cause-effect world"

yeah i agree with that as well. i cant find the scans but Lilith stated that the Nightside is freed from fate as well + the court of holies cant directly interfere with the Nightside and they go about things by directly manipulating fate.

 

[Udlmaster]

yeah i agree with that as well. i cant find the scans but Lilith stated that the Nightside is freed from fate as well + the court of holies cant directly interfere with the Nightside and they go about things by directly manipulating fate.

I think that part changed.

From what Just Another Judgement Day implied, and from what we saw from Hell to Pay, the forces of the Infernal and the Holy can interfere directly in the Nightside because it's nature had changed.

Since before, Walking Men were barred from the Nightside like Angels were, but obviously, that changed.

 

[Rutæhh]

im making a cosmology sandbox since i was bored asf and typed this out. Im nowhere near finished but I would like to know if it is correct. If u would like to add anything directly to it go ahead i dont mind

there are many places within the cosmology but going for the broad stuff should help place everything nice and neat

 

[Udlmaster]

I've got parts of that myself:

The Nightside, a Noir Cosmology

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Quasar002]

It’s very good. I also think we can add a few more things on certain topics:

Alternate dimensions are scientific, not magical. — Drinking Midnight Wine

Ley lines are God's architectural blueprint, the building blocks of the world. — Drinking Midnight Wine

Ley lines connect the material and immaterial worlds, holding existence together. If you could look into the origin and source of power of the ley lines, your mind would explode from the mere glimpse. This applies to all beings in the material world. — Drinking Midnight Wine

Ley lines exist in directions a human cannot see or name, only sense. — Drinking Midnight Wine

The workings of destiny are far more awe-inspiring than ley lines. To observe destiny is to gaze beyond the world. — Drinking Midnight Wine

There’s a subtle reference to Plato’s cave. It’s said that Gayle is a shadow cast on a wall by Gaia. In other words, avatars of immaterial entities can be seen in this way. — Drinking Midnight Wine

 

[Rutæhh]

I've got parts of that myself:

The Nightside, a Noir Cosmology

vsbattles.fandom.com

yeah i used some of yours as a base for mine

It’s very good. I also think we can add a few more things on certain topics:

nice. will add later

 

[Udlmaster]

It’s very good. I also think we can add a few more things on certain topics:

Make sure to add pages too.

 

[Rutæhh]

I'm having a bit of trouble with this so i would like some opinions on it.

So Gaia is an immaterial due to being the progeny of the Serpent as well as a transient being. This would mean that she should share her existence with the Babalon working who exists within the levels of reality.

Would it then mean that the Immaterial and Baseline Reality are one and the same?

 

[Udlmaster]

I'm having a bit of trouble with this so i would like some opinions on it.

So Gaia is an immaterial due to being the progeny of the Serpent as well as a transient being. This would mean that she should share her existence with the Babalon working who exists within the levels of reality.

Would it then mean that the Immaterial and Baseline Reality are one and the same?

I'm not sure what you mean by "The Immaterial"

Do you mean the Shimmering Planes and the Pit?

 

[Rutæhh]

I'm not sure what you mean by "The Immaterial"

Do you mean the Shimmering Planes and the Pit?

yeah

Edit; though after doing some reading and thinking about it, Gaia may not be an immaterial being since that seems more relegated to heavenly beings.

 

[Rutæhh]

Greenverse Major Revisions - Part 1: Cosmology.

The verse is currently rated as 1-B but today, I would like to discuss and properly tier different aspects of the Greenverse based on this sandbox that was constructed. Special thanks for those in discussion thread who helped 💖...

vsbattles.com

check it out

 

[Quasar002]

Greenverse Major Revisions - Part 1: Cosmology.

The verse is currently rated as 1-B but today, I would like to discuss and properly tier different aspects of the Greenverse based on this sandbox that was constructed. Special thanks for those in discussion thread who helped 💖...

vsbattles.com

check it out

So, once the revision is accepted, what will the ranking of the most powerful in the verse look like? God in first place, fair enough. But what would a top 5 of the most powerful in the Greenverse look like?

 

[Rutæhh]

So, once the revision is accepted, what will the ranking of the most powerful in the verse look like? God in first place, fair enough. But what would a top 5 of the most powerful in the Greenverse look like?

1. God
2. The Walking Men
3. The Enemy/Lilith
4. Angels
5. Beings from the Reality Behind Reality such as Transient Beings and The New People

 

[Quasar002]

1. God
2. The Walking Men
3. The Enemy/Lilith
4. Angels
5. Beings from the Reality Behind Reality such as Transient Beings and The New People

Shouldn't the Lord of Thorns be as powerful as Lilith and the angels?

I say this because of these two quotes:

“Those jumped-up poseurs were always scared of the Lord of Thorns because he was the real deal, and they were only pretenders. So the Beings pooled their power, waited for the right opportunity, and channelled it through Walker’s Voice, to shut down the Lord of Thorns’ power, when he went head to head with Lilith. She could never have defeated him otherwise. And so he lost his confidence, and he lost his faith; and without those, he was nothing. He crawled away and ended up here: broken, confused, and no threat to anyone.” — The Good, The Bad, and The Uncanny, p. 294 (Epub)

It’s stated that Lilith could never have defeated him otherwise.

Regarding the angels, there’s this quote:

Etched into every crystal facet were characters from the language known as Enochian, a tongue created for men to speak to angels. I recognised it, but I couldn’t read it. Not many can. It is corrosive to rational thinking. Pretty Poison moved along one wall, tracing the characters with a fingertip. These are names, she said softly. Names beyond number, of angels from Above and Below, from all ranks and stations. Even my name is here. My true name, from before the Fall. No mortal should have access to this knowledge. But why write them here? said Sinner. Because to know the true name of a thing is to have power over it, said Pretty Poison. To command and to control. Whoever put the Lord of Thorns here, and made him Overseer of the Nightside, has given him power over all the agents of Heaven and Hell. — Hex and the City, p. 238 (Epub)

Basically, he has power over all the agents of Heaven and Hell because he knows their true names (probably their secret names). There are also other quotes about him, such as how he represents all aspects of God that people prefer to ignore, or that he has God’s power flowing through him, like other saints.

As for the Enemy, would that be the Devil/Satan? I always get confused about that.

I haven’t read Deathstalker yet, but is there any character or enemy in it who is as powerful as the beings from Outside? I started reading Secret Histories this week, and after I finish all the books, I plan to move on to Deathstalker.