Guts vs Maul - Rematch

[DaReaperMan]

Dooku no longer used Force Lightning against Obi-Wan in the first fight in Episode 2 after Obi-Wan demonstrated skill in blocking it. Dooku did not even use it at any point during the fight against Obi-Wan and Anakin in Episode 3, probably for the same reason

but he does trap a sack dressed up as Obi-Wan under a railing!

Maul uses Force Choke against Obi-Wan in one of the scans I sent you.

Besides, even with that, you only prove how he acts against someone who doesn't have their own TK.

He abuses the Force against non-sensitive guys who have 0% chance of defense against TK because they don't have that kind of thing to defend themselves, why wouldn't he use it against Guts for the same reason?

Yeah, in one of them. 9/10 he doesn't even do it, it's a force push or throwing shit lol

The Force has a different abstraction from things in berserk (CM2) so I don't know if he would treat Guts as Force Sensitive, because it is necessary to realize that the person is communicating with the Force in some way for that.

We have no idea, so Schrödinger's box. Guts does passively deny causality and fate though, and is basically impossible to actually land a killing blow on so uh... yeah.

Besides, Temagi already answered this.

Maul has no reason to promise Guts anything.

I'm pretty sure force pushing a man is just as honorable as committing a war crime and trying to burn them alive lol

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I think the feats that really sell the maul win for me is everything that takes place on Mandalore, and how easily he dispatches the inquisitors in Rebels.

Is this a vote?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

but he does trap a sack dressed up as Obi-Wan under a railing!

This is simply a matter of writing. In the same way that Dokoo could have killed Obi-Wan in episode 3 with the Force Choke but instead chose to throw him away.

Yeah, in one of them. 9/10 he doesn't even do it, it's a force push or throwing shit lol

A Force Push is still decent damage against Guts, considering the AP difference.

We have no idea, so Schrödinger's box. Guts does passively deny causality and fate though, and is basically impossible to actually land a killing blow on so uh... yeah.

I didn't quite understand, the note says that Guts' probability thing isn't as efficient in vs threads as it is in the story. Besides, he has resistance to manipulating it.

I'm pretty sure force pushing a man is just as honorable as committing a war crime and trying to burn them alive lol

I didn't understand what you meant.

 

[DaReaperMan]

This is simply a matter of writing. In the same way that Dokoo could have killed Obi-Wan in episode 3 with the Force Choke but instead chose to throw him away.

He also could have told Anakin that Palpatine was his master instead of looking at him like he just said a slur in a room full of big black men

A Force Push is still decent damage against Guts, considering the AP difference.

It's also Guts. This is the guy known for fighting when his ass should be a corpse.

I didn't quite understand, the note says that Guts' probability thing isn't as efficient in vs threads as it is in the story. Besides, he has resistance to manipulating it.

Maul has resistance, Guts doesn't lol

I didn't understand what you meant.

Flamethrowers were banned by the Geneva Convention in 1980, who knows when they were banned by the Yavin Code.

 

[Epiccheev]

Guts has a **** ton of astral shit about him

Just wait until he takes out his healing crystals and starts reading his horoscope

 

[Azu777]

Is this a vote?

yes, sorry, forgot to clarify

 

[Phsccarvalho]

He also could have told Anakin that Palpatine was his master instead of looking at him like he just said a slur in a room full of big black men

Blame George Lucas.

It's also Guts. This is the guy known for fighting when his ass should be a corpse.

I mean, considering the lightsaber not doing enough damage, I don't see why Maul wouldn't play Force Push with Guts instead of trying to use something he saw wasn't effective.

yes, sorry, forgot to clarify

You didn't clarify with that message now.

 

[Azu777]

Yes, as in, yes it is a vote, mb

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Yes, as in, yes it is a vote, mb

...

But who is it a vote for?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Blame George Lucas.

I blame Kathleen Kenedy.

I mean, considering the lightsaber not doing enough damage, I don't see why Maul wouldn't play Force Push with Guts instead of trying to use something he saw wasn't effective.

Depends on how they fight, since Maul might just be slamming against Dragon Slayer, which is Guts' weapon. He also risks getting a handcannon to the face during any extended clash, and Maul do be susceptible to surprise attacks.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Depends on how they fight, since Maul might just be slamming against Dragon Slayer, which is Guts' weapon. He also risks getting a handcannon to the face during any extended clash, and Maul do be susceptible to surprise attacks.

If he were in a lightsaber fight, probably... not in the case of being caught off guard exactly (since with the rest of his abilities he has time to think and know what's going to happen), but he would have his hands full with the lightsabers to use TK (although TK in SW can be used without gestures but due to the stupid writing they don't do that 99.99% of the time)

But in a fight where he would probably discard the lightsaber from the start, I think he would have a chance to defend himself in a thousand ways against projectiles.

Did you know that in my country Maul has the same voice actor as Lucifer from Supernatural?

 

[DaReaperMan]

If he were in a lightsaber fight, probably... not in the case of being caught off guard exactly (since with the rest of his abilities he has time to think and know what's going to happen), but he would have his hands full with the lightsabers to use TK (although TK in SW can be used without gestures but due to the stupid writing they don't do that 99.99% of the time)

But in a fight where he would probably discard the lightsaber from the start, I think he would have a chance to defend himself in a thousand ways against projectiles.

I doubt he wouldn't at least try lightsaber combat here. Also, it's not a projectile, it's a big explosion that one-shots things that overpower Guts.

Did you know that in my country Maul has the same voice actor as Lucifer from Supernatural?

Did you know that the 3-D animation in the more recent Berserk anime sucks dick?

 

[Doggo]

I stopped commenting since I was on vacation....

...how the hell did we reach 7 pages?!?

 

[Doggo]

I love how oddly thematic the MU is, both want revenge but the other let it go while other was consumed by it

 

[DaReaperMan]

I stopped commenting since I was on vacation....

...how the hell did we reach 7 pages?!?

Sort of happens when I'm in a debate with someone else actually competent at debating, it just spreads out lol

 

[Xavis10]

You realize force chokes tend to stop the target from being able to at all speak, right?

What video are you referring to? I have a feeling you're not talking about the same one I am (Bo-Katan).

With ulterior motives. If he just cut her down he wouldn't be able to try to convince Ezra to give into the dark side. If you want to argue against this, argue against Maul's ENTIRE MOTIVATIONS for helping Ezra at all.

Irrelevant, he still did it.

...He didn't have the weapon he's argued to almost always use to a detriment?

Irrelevant, he still did so in combat. If he sees he can't use a weapon, he uses the Force.

 

[Catbowtie]

Irrelevant, he still did it.

...It's not irrelevant?

Characters do things for reasons and they're more likely to do one thing over another in certain situations. It's called being In-Character...? No one's going to say Naruto will nuke a planet in a versus fight because he has 5-B AP. Maul choosing not to use The Force in 9/10 of his 1v1 fights and then in the 1/10 of fights doing a basic Force push, but you picking like two examples of Force Choke and saying Maul will use it is literally the definition of Cherry picking.

Irrelevant, he still did so in combat. If he sees he can't use a weapon, he uses the Force.

Except everyone has already been over the fact Maul would actually die before scumming out with The Force.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Characters do things for reasons and they're more likely to do one thing over another in certain situations. It's called being In-Character...? No one's going to say Naruto will nuke a planet in a versus fight because he has 5-B AP

This is different, we know that Naruto wouldn't do that because of his personality, he's not the kind of person who would destroy a planet to win a battle.

In SW we have quotes where characters don't use x power for inexplicable reasons, or that they don't use powers that could save their lives.

Do you really believe that Jaro Tapal (Cal's master) because of his personality, would really prefer to die and put his padawan's life at risk, instead of doing a force push or force barrier to protect himself and Cal from the clones. Do you think that because of his personality he would rather die than use any power to protect his own life and that of his padawan?

Or Luke in episode 6 against the Rancor. When he's left without his lightsaber, the movie shows him as powerless against the Rancor. Do you think that because of Luke's personality, he would rather take the risk/possibility of dying than use a simple TK on the Rancor or TK in the cells and escape? Or that in a life and death struggle, he would rather pick up a bone on the ground as a weapon than use TK?

 

[DaReaperMan]

In SW we have quotes where characters don't use x power for inexplicable reasons, or that they don't use powers that could save their lives.

Do you really believe that Jaro Tapal (Cal's master) because of his personality, would really prefer to die and put his padawan's life at risk, instead of doing a force push or force barrier to protect himself and Cal from the clones. Do you think that because of his personality he would rather die than use any power to protect his own life and that of his padawan?

Or Luke in episode 6 against the Rancor. When he's left without his lightsaber, the movie shows him as powerless against the Rancor. Do you think that because of Luke's personality, he would rather take the risk/possibility of dying than use a simple TK on the Rancor or TK in the cells and escape? Or that in a life and death struggle, he would rather pick up a bone on the ground as a weapon than use TK?

It's called Character-Induced-Stupidity. Luke COULD have force-****** the Rancor, he chose not to. That's on him, same thing with Jaro.

Characters don't have to be perfectly optimal. Mace Windu could have force crushed Dooku's heart, or just targeted Grievous' organs specifically instead of his chestplate as a whole in legends, but he didn't. Star Wars isn't written by power scalers, sometimes the characters are going to do the unoptimal thing to do, just so happens they do it often enough that it can be used against them, no matter the reason.

Snip

And before you complain I'm not responding to you, I don't see the point in responding to an argument that's basically "NUH UH!!!"

 

[Phsccarvalho]

It's called Character-Induced-Stupidity. Luke COULD have force-****** the Rancor, he chose not to. That's on him, same thing with Jaro.

Characters don't have to be perfectly optimal. Mace Windu could have force crushed Dooku's heart, or just targeted Grievous' organs specifically instead of his chestplate as a whole in legends, but he didn't. Star Wars isn't written by power scalers, sometimes the characters are going to do the unoptimal thing to do, just so happens they do it often enough that it can be used against them, no matter the reason.

From what is described on the PIS page, there is no such thing as if enough PIS happens, it can actually be used to say that it is a real characteristic/personality of the character.

As far as I know, Force TK cannot be used internally, I also don't remember the canon Mace Windu demonstrating using Force Choke.

 

[DaReaperMan]

As far as I know, Force TK cannot be used internally,

Darth Vader groped a Jedi's heart to interrogate him in the Canon comics. TK can absolutely grope organs in this verse.

I also don't remember the canon Mace Windu demonstrating using Force Choke.

If Obi-Wan can Force Crush people, Mace sure as hell can.

From what is described on the PIS page, there is no such thing as if enough PIS happens, it can actually be used to say that it is a real characteristic/personality of the character.

Character-Induced Stupidity

Character-Induced Stupidity, or CIS for short, refers to the mental limits of a character that cause them to perform at below the true potential of their powers. The term is somewhat of a misnomer, since it refers to more than just stupidity - it could also refer to a character's unawareness...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Darth Vader groped a Jedi's heart to interrogate him in the Canon comics. TK can absolutely grope organs in this verse.

Force Choke durability negation?

Send me the scan and reference NOW.

If Obi-Wan can Force Crush people, Mace sure as hell can.

That's not how it works.

Darth Vader groped a Jedi's heart to interrogate him in the Canon comics. TK can absolutely grope organs in this verse.

If Obi-Wan can Force Crush people, Mace sure as hell can.

Character-Induced Stupidity

Character-Induced Stupidity, or CIS for short, refers to the mental limits of a character that cause them to perform at below the true potential of their powers. The term is somewhat of a misnomer, since it refers to more than just stupidity - it could also refer to a character's unawareness...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The examples given on the page are of characters who have these personality traits actually explained within the franchise as a real thing. Unlike SW where they don't use them as often as they should just because... just because.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Force Choke durability negation?

Send me the scan and reference NOW.

4:15, like I said, it's in Darth Vader's comic series. Read it. It's good.

That's not how it works.

It's just an application of TK, nothing special about it lol

The examples given on the page are of characters who have these personality traits actually explained within the franchise as a real thing. Unlike SW where they don't use them as often as they should just because... just because.

And it still applies here. Some characters just flat-out don't perform completely optimally. Force Users just so happen to usually be among them, with some notable exceptions like Darth Nihilus.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

4:15, like I said, it's in Darth Vader's comic series. Read it. It's good.

Star Wars: Purge - The Tyrant's Fist

Dude, this is Legends.

It's just an application of TK, nothing special about it lol

Force Choke is a TK technique in which the sensitive has to access the dark side and use it (demonstrated most explicitly with Cal, who can only use the dark side in battle)

Jedis are taught not to access the dark side, so the default would be that they don't use it until shown otherwise.

And it still applies here. Some characters just flat-out don't perform completely optimally. Force Users just so happen to usually be among them, with some notable exceptions like Darth Nihilus.

Only if you can get a scan or an explanation given by the Franchise as to why Maul doesn't use the Force more often in battle.

Because like, all the examples on the Character-Induced Stupidity page seem to be like that.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Star Wars: Purge - The Tyrant's Fist

Dude, this is Legends.

Couldn't even find the reference so yeah you definitely have more knowledge than me there lol

Force Choke is a TK technique in which the sensitive has to access the dark side and use it (demonstrated most explicitly with Cal, who can only use the dark side in battle)

Jedis are taught not to access the dark side, so the default would be that they don't use it until shown otherwise.

You mean like this?

Only if you can get a scan or an explanation given by the Franchise as to why Maul doesn't use the Force more often in battle.

Because like, all the examples on the Character-Induced Stupidity page seem to be like that.

If he chooses not to do it he chooses not to do it. Like, honestly, Maul doesn't act optimally 110% of the time and loses a versus battle, woe is me.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Couldn't even find the reference so yeah you definitely have more knowledge than me there lol

By trying to go to hell to collect cosmology scans, you learn good ways to find scans, even low quality ones.

You mean like this?

That's why I said "it is the default until proven otherwise."

Any Jedi can access the dark side and use its powers, they are just instructed by the order not to do so, so the default is that they don't. Unless they are proven to do so, like Obi-Wan.

If he chooses not to do it he chooses not to do it. Like, honestly, Maul doesn't act optimally 110% of the time and loses a versus battle, woe is me.

The examples on the page show a "why" explained by the story/franchise or by the character himself. A "why" just because without justification is not present in the examples.

So until the page is changed to show examples of this type, I'll stand by what I said.

 

[DaReaperMan]

By trying to go to hell to collect cosmology scans, you learn good ways to find scans, even low quality ones.

Definitely fair!

That's why I said "it is the default until proven otherwise."

Any Jedi can access the dark side and use its powers, they are just instructed by the order not to do so, so the default is that they don't. Unless they are proven to do so, like Obi-Wan.

...Mace is like, the primary example of a jedi who sometimes uses the Dark Side, that's literally the reason he made Vapaad lmfao

The examples on the page show a "why" explained by the story/franchise or by the character himself. A "why" just because without justification is not present in the examples.

So until the page is changed to show examples of this type, I'll stand by what I said.

So the Darth Maul in your headcanon goes above the Darth Maul shown on-screen then? Like, not trying to be rude, but that's what this comes off as. Maul doesn't NEED a reason to act unoptimally, if he does he does.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

...Mace is like, the primary example of a jedi who sometimes uses the Dark Side, that's literally the reason he made Vapaad lmfao

I'm not sure, the vast majority of information about this form comes from Legends.

And the other part comes from a tabletop RPG, which I don't know if it's something we can use.

But that same RPG book says that using Form VII doesn't make the Jedi fall/access the dark side, but rather that resorting to this form intensively and continuously brought the practitioner closer to giving in to the dark side (i.e., not something immediate).

The Mace Windu variant, again from the tabletop RPG book (since it seems that almost everything Disney that talks about this form comes from that book), says that Windu's variant taught the practitioner to really not give in, unlike the main one.

So, I'm not sure.

So the Darth Maul in your headcanon goes above the Darth Maul shown on-screen then?

No, I showed instances of Maul using Force Choke in battle against both sensitives and non-sensitives.

My arguments are twofold.

1 - If the lightsaber works, he will continue to use it, occasionally using the Force offensively (TK, etc.), depending on what he wants to do.

2 - If the lightsaber doesn't work, I think he will use the Force more offensively because I don't think he will look like an idiot using something that clearly doesn't work, refusing to use something as simple as TK.

 

[Doggo]

This is starting to sound like a SW CRT or discussion thread ngl

 

[Random-Helper323]

Maul has a pretty solid answer to Guts' projectiles, and either of them could win in a swordfight.

What answer does Guts have to Force telekinesis or mind trick?

 

[Doggo]

Maul has a pretty solid answer to Guts' projectiles, and either of them could win in a swordfight.

What answer does Guts have to Force telekinesis or mind trick?

He tanks the TK through endurance and Immortality type 2, so even snapping his neck or crushing his heart won't work.

Disney mind hax can be resisted through via willpower, which Guts has A LOT

 

[Random-Helper323]

He tanks the TK through endurance and Immortality type 2, so even snapping his neck or crushing his heart won't work.

Can he really get through it forever though? And what can he do in retaliation to Maul that Maul won't just block?

Disney mind hax can be resisted through via willpower, which Guts has A LOT

Makes sense, the audience has been resisting the company ordering them to like recent Star Wars films for years.

Jokes aside, that makes sense. It's easy to think of EU Star Wars when discussing the other version.

 

[Doggo]

Can he really get through it forever though? And what can he do in retaliation to Maul that Maul won't just block?

Makes sense, the audience has been resisting the company ordering them to like recent Star Wars films for years.

Jokes aside, that makes sense. It's easy to think of EU Star Wars when discussing the other version.

Maul doesn't spam TK, he prefers dueling. I doubt Maul is gonna resort to ragdolling, he would likely stop after realizing its futility

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Maul doesn't spam TK, he prefers dueling. I doubt Maul is gonna resort to ragdolling, he would likely stop after realizing its futility

Not necessarily ragdolling.

Force Push can knock Guts back and cause considerable damage considering the AP difference.

LS can be used to disarm Guts.

 

[Random-Helper323]

How large is the AP difference?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

How large is the AP difference?

From what I remember of the conversation.

Maul is 491t.

Guts is 119.07t

 

[Random-Helper323]

From what I remember of the conversation.

Maul is 491t.

Guts is 119.07t

That's a times 4.12 AP gap. With that AP gap, what's to stop Maul from simply overcoming Guts in a direct duel? Assuming this AP also scales to striking power?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

That's a times 4.12 AP gap. With that AP gap, what's to stop Maul from simply overcoming Guts in a direct duel? Assuming this AP also scales to striking power?

I don't know, I wasn't defending Guts.

 

[DaReaperMan]

That's a times 4.12 AP gap. With that AP gap, what's to stop Maul from simply overcoming Guts in a direct duel? Assuming this AP also scales to striking power?

Maul being at a big skill disadvantage? And having your face blown off via explosion is a pretty damn good reason to lose a duel because the shock of that and then the decapitation attempt would not be fun, and remember, Maul can't ignore the Dragon Slayer

 

[Epiccheev]

Guts (and Blood) FRA