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Infinite speed and possibly Low 1-C for Trainer Red
- Thread starter Hypercyber37
- Start date
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You can explain it sure, but dont use the game level system as a means of scaling. Use the lore and canonical power
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- Thread starter
- #43
The moment you objected to Elio's Inf I lost all interest. Don't tell me what to do
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- Thread starter
- #45
Explanation for those who are confused
1. Levels represent power when you are in the same game. Each gym leader has a higher level than the previous one because they are stronger. The same goes for other trainers
2. Completing the Pokedex is your ultimate goal in the game and what you need to do to complete the game completely. There is no contradiction since all the games are alternate universes that seem related but are actually similar. There is more than one of each Pokemon except for True Form Arceus. Akari cannot go to Arceus before and continue the story without completing the Dex. This means that she caught the Sinnoh Trio but we see them again in Diamond Pearl. In addition, there are timelines where all our heroes in the first 6 generations fail and that is how Rainbow Rocket came to be. Cyrus, a member of Rainbow Rocket, also has a Palkia so there is more than one of the Sinnoh Trio. Arceus' avatars are the same. Completing the Dex does not conflict with the other games because they are all different time periods.
3. Red is not limited to being the highest level trainer in both HGSS and USUM games. He comes to the battle after the most important scale events in the game. Ethan/Lyra fights Red after getting Arceus' avatar. Elio/Selene fights Red after defeating Rainbow rocket and ultra beasts. Since which pokemon they use depends on the player, they should be evaluated in the lowest probability and the highest probability. This is where the "possibly" issue comes into play.
For possible anti-feats: since all games are in similar alternate universes, events done in one do not harm the other. random trainers or random pokemons that come out of the lawn are considered game mechanics. but Old Kanto champions Red & Green and Rainbow rocket are not considered game mechanics, they are the flow of the story.
1. Levels represent power when you are in the same game. Each gym leader has a higher level than the previous one because they are stronger. The same goes for other trainers
2. Completing the Pokedex is your ultimate goal in the game and what you need to do to complete the game completely. There is no contradiction since all the games are alternate universes that seem related but are actually similar. There is more than one of each Pokemon except for True Form Arceus. Akari cannot go to Arceus before and continue the story without completing the Dex. This means that she caught the Sinnoh Trio but we see them again in Diamond Pearl. In addition, there are timelines where all our heroes in the first 6 generations fail and that is how Rainbow Rocket came to be. Cyrus, a member of Rainbow Rocket, also has a Palkia so there is more than one of the Sinnoh Trio. Arceus' avatars are the same. Completing the Dex does not conflict with the other games because they are all different time periods.
3. Red is not limited to being the highest level trainer in both HGSS and USUM games. He comes to the battle after the most important scale events in the game. Ethan/Lyra fights Red after getting Arceus' avatar. Elio/Selene fights Red after defeating Rainbow rocket and ultra beasts. Since which pokemon they use depends on the player, they should be evaluated in the lowest probability and the highest probability. This is where the "possibly" issue comes into play.
For possible anti-feats: since all games are in similar alternate universes, events done in one do not harm the other. random trainers or random pokemons that come out of the lawn are considered game mechanics. but Old Kanto champions Red & Green and Rainbow rocket are not considered game mechanics, they are the flow of the story.
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Game levels predominately are for game progression and are a mechanic. Not even the way we do things now denies this
Completing the Pokedex hasn't been a major part of the story for ages. Its a completionist task sure, but to say thats the reason the trainers go on their journey in the first place isn't motivation or a reason to say every trainer has/uses absolutely every pokemon in their dex.
Gym Leaders are also only ordered for the story. In lore, theres multiple times that imply that theres no fixed order, and they use pokemon on the level of the trainer they are facing based on current gym badges. All the gym leaders rematch teams are around the same level also.
Completing the Pokedex hasn't been a major part of the story for ages. Its a completionist task sure, but to say thats the reason the trainers go on their journey in the first place isn't motivation or a reason to say every trainer has/uses absolutely every pokemon in their dex.
Gym Leaders are also only ordered for the story. In lore, theres multiple times that imply that theres no fixed order, and they use pokemon on the level of the trainer they are facing based on current gym badges. All the gym leaders rematch teams are around the same level also.
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- Thread starter
- #47
I wrote a more detailed explanation in case it helps you agree.
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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I was talking to him. He said the event in HGSS was the one that never released.
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- Thread starter
- #49
I'm not going to waste my time with him. He thinks he's debunking but what he's saying doesn't make any sense. I just wanted to get you involved in the vote.
do you agree? or disagree or neutral?
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It wasnt though. You cant legitimately obtain Arceus lol
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
He/Him- 5,382
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Probably neutral
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
He/Him- 5,382
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Oh, so the event CAN happen.
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You're misreading again, i said cant
The event is coded into the game, however theres no legitimate way to trigger it since it was scrapped event content. You have to get Arceus through the use of an event legitimately, which isnt part of the main storyline or game. So why exactly are we trying to assume that its canon and Ethan then used Arceus against Red?
even if it was an event too, you dont HAVE to do it before you fight Red. It can easily be completed afterwards.
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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The Platinum Arceus event only was the one that was scrapped.
There is no limit to how many times you can fight Red.
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Again
"The only way to access the Sinjoh Ruins is by bringing an Arceus from an event distribution or the Hall of Origin to the Ruins of Alph. The event is triggered by having Arceus as the player's walking Pokémon and entering the Ruins of Alph. However, due to the Azure Flute never being released in Generation IV, it is not possible to obtain an Arceus from the Hall of Origin without the use of glitches or cheating."
- Bulbapedia
The fact you can replay the rematch is irrelevant.
"The only way to access the Sinjoh Ruins is by bringing an Arceus from an event distribution or the Hall of Origin to the Ruins of Alph. The event is triggered by having Arceus as the player's walking Pokémon and entering the Ruins of Alph. However, due to the Azure Flute never being released in Generation IV, it is not possible to obtain an Arceus from the Hall of Origin without the use of glitches or cheating."
- Bulbapedia
The fact you can replay the rematch is irrelevant.
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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The Hall of Origin... is in Pokemon Platinum.
No, it's very relevant because you can fight Red no matter when you get Arceus or a CT member.
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wdym?
It's still officially available, you just need an Arceus, which you could get via the Sinnoh special events, and events with special event Pokémon are still important to the story.
We know this because of Celebi. In Celebi's event, you go back in time and not only see Silver's backstory, but also fight Giovanni, which in terms demotivates him from trying to rejoin Team Rocket's relaunch. And you can only do this if you have Celebi, which you can only get via a special event.
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Sinjoh Ruins. Can you look at the correct word please? And theres still no legit way to access Arceus either.
So what does that mean exactly? The event is not able to activate legitimately whatsoever, so why are you trying to deceive?
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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Since you clearly need to be spoonfed, you don't get an Arceus from Sinjoh Ruins. Any event Arceus can activate it.
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Limited time distribution events are NOT canon. They're literally just events that are gatekept. Theres no reason to assume they are the standard of the story.
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Again, the Celebi event is not only canon, but important to the main story. While I will agree that not ALL limited time events are canon, the ones with special events in game should be treated as such due to them actively affecting the story, again as shown with Celebi.
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Yeah, Event Arceus. Not part of the main story whatsoever.
The event was scrapped content and cant officially trigger regardless.
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Okay, thats the Celebi one which im not gonna delve into (optional backstory isnt as important as you think). If you agree that not all limited time events mean this, then why are you advocating for the event that they neevr officially gave us a way to trigger?
Why are we desperately trying to scale everything to Arceus???
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Arceus could still be obtained, just via a store event. The same type of event that Celebi is obtained, who in turn gave us Silver's backstory and, more importantly, why Giovanni never rejoined with the newly remade Team Rocket, the latter of which is actively part of the main story.
Limited time event Pokémon that have special events in-game are important and Celebi is the prime example of that.
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Side info does not consistute being part of the main story. That doesnt make it essential. sure it can be the canon way of how things went about, but that doesnt then mean they get every single ranodm event distribution mon as standard equipment. Celebi was also released legitimately
You cant even legitimately obtain the Azure Flute and get Arceus without random ToysRUs codes before Legends Arceus.
This still doesnt mean Red faced an Arceus, or the fact that Ethan did (since he would have just 'had it'). This random limited time event thats not even part of the main story then does not scale all the way across to USUM to pretend like Red is using that level of power to then try and make everything Infinite speed.
You cant even legitimately obtain the Azure Flute and get Arceus without random ToysRUs codes before Legends Arceus.
This still doesnt mean Red faced an Arceus, or the fact that Ethan did (since he would have just 'had it'). This random limited time event thats not even part of the main story then does not scale all the way across to USUM to pretend like Red is using that level of power to then try and make everything Infinite speed.
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And you can't obtain Celebi without going to GameStop, but it still has lore important content in it, which is very much essential. Hell, to complete the OG Black and White pokedex, you needed special event Pokémon (Celebi and the Shiny Johto Dog Trio), which just goes to show that yes, special event Pokémon that have in-game events are 100% viable.
I'm less so arguing for HGSS Red scaling to Arceus + CT and more so arguing that special in-game events via Event Pokémon are useable for profiles.
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That was literally for a tie-in with an anime movie. It wouldnt be standard equipment over a random event trigger thats not legitimately in the base game, or even DLC.
Yeah, meanwhile the HGSS in-game event was just...literally useable. There was no azure flute, no way to legitimately get Arceus, and no way in HGSS to have it other than glitching or tradign a very limited version. It was obviously forgotten about.
Idm using event info for the actual character/pokemon feats depending on what it is, but trying to use this forgotten HGSS event that the company didnt legtitimately let you trigger to say that Red faced an Arceus in that battle where you, the player, can literally bring anything you want is pretty insane. Its not like Ethan had even fought a creation trio member in itself because theres no actual battle sequence. It just gets ridiculous at some point
Yeah, meanwhile the HGSS in-game event was just...literally useable. There was no azure flute, no way to legitimately get Arceus, and no way in HGSS to have it other than glitching or tradign a very limited version. It was obviously forgotten about.
Idm using event info for the actual character/pokemon feats depending on what it is, but trying to use this forgotten HGSS event that the company didnt legtitimately let you trigger to say that Red faced an Arceus in that battle where you, the player, can literally bring anything you want is pretty insane. Its not like Ethan had even fought a creation trio member in itself because theres no actual battle sequence. It just gets ridiculous at some point
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Except Celebi and the event Shiny Dog Trio are the same way. You literally cannot 100% complete the game without them because they're needed to get Zorua and Zoroark, two Pokémon that are NEEDED for BW's Pokedex. And much like Arceus, they were a part of a limited time event, meaning that Zorua and Zoroark are much like the Arceus in-game event: Locked and forgotten unless the certain Pokémon is used.
Not only that, but to even get Zorua and Zoroark is to transfer Celebi and the Shiny Dogs from HGSS to BW, so having to trade to get in-game events doesn't seem to matter.
Not only that, but to even get Zorua and Zoroark is to transfer Celebi and the Shiny Dogs from HGSS to BW, so having to trade to get in-game events doesn't seem to matter.
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Pokemon doesnt work on an '100% completion' for the game.
For some odd reason sure, you cant get Zoroark like that in BW, but that doesnt translate to in-canon. Zorua/Zoroark is still a pokemon native to Unova somewhere in the wild. You need to think more about the in-universe context than just what the game gives you. How else do trade evolutions exist at all in the wild?
I dont know why we're assuming outside of Red that all the other protags have most definitely completed the Pokedex as if thats ever even a huge plot point.
This is getting off topic overall now, but yeah, the way temporary in-game events go does not hold this much weight in the context of the actual verse.
So why is it that we're allowing us to assume Arceus is part of Ethan/Lyra's standard equipment, and then making another assumption they faced Red, and then assuming that level of power is used while hes on vacation to Alola?
For some odd reason sure, you cant get Zoroark like that in BW, but that doesnt translate to in-canon. Zorua/Zoroark is still a pokemon native to Unova somewhere in the wild. You need to think more about the in-universe context than just what the game gives you. How else do trade evolutions exist at all in the wild?
I dont know why we're assuming outside of Red that all the other protags have most definitely completed the Pokedex as if thats ever even a huge plot point.
This is getting off topic overall now, but yeah, the way temporary in-game events go does not hold this much weight in the context of the actual verse.
So why is it that we're allowing us to assume Arceus is part of Ethan/Lyra's standard equipment, and then making another assumption they faced Red, and then assuming that level of power is used while hes on vacation to Alola?
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Except that there is in-game 100% completion rewards in every single game.
Except the issue is that we can't get them any way, shape, or form outside of events or being gifted by in-game characters. So the only way to obtain one legitimately is either via the event mons, trading, which can only happen legitimately via the event mons, or being gifted one in BW2.
...The main moto of the ENTIRE franchise is literally "Gotta Catch Em All". You literally get a Pokedex to help with research. So yeah, it's a MASSIVE point in the games to catch all Pokémon. So yes, it's safe to say that every protag in-canon would've had to catch all Pokémon in their respected dexs because that is the entire point of the franchise.
Because special event Pokémon, specifically ones that are connected to in-game events, are canon going off of Celebi and the shiny Roaming Dog Trio.
Again, I myself am not saying that. Hell, for all we know the Shinjo Event could've been Post-Red Battle. I'm just arguing that special event Pokémon are viable for trainer pages if they are tied to in-game events. That's it.
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A random pokedex certificate and a shiny charm doesnt really mean anything to the character lore-wise. We need to learn the difference between the protag character and the composite player
Okay, but Zorua and Zoroark are still native to Unova despite this in-lore. Pokemon was just making bad decisions by locking pokemon behind events
Its not massive at all since Red. You get given a Pokedex and can fill it (for player benefit), but the main storyline is the Pokemon League and any post-game storylines. A ton of it is just optional that we shouldnt hold to non-compositing
Yeah, and the game-event was scrapped and cant be activated legitimately. The question about using this to scale legitimately is just not there
Eh, i really wouldnt think so with events that are just random codes that you have to go through. Like what are the lore-reasons behind those? I really dont think we should be giving Ethan an Arceus and then trying to use that to scale everything to Arceus
Okay, but Zorua and Zoroark are still native to Unova despite this in-lore. Pokemon was just making bad decisions by locking pokemon behind events
Its not massive at all since Red. You get given a Pokedex and can fill it (for player benefit), but the main storyline is the Pokemon League and any post-game storylines. A ton of it is just optional that we shouldnt hold to non-compositing
Yeah, and the game-event was scrapped and cant be activated legitimately. The question about using this to scale legitimately is just not there
Eh, i really wouldnt think so with events that are just random codes that you have to go through. Like what are the lore-reasons behind those? I really dont think we should be giving Ethan an Arceus and then trying to use that to scale everything to Arceus
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- Thread starter
- #73
I don't know which staff is interested in Pokemon, who should I show this to?
There are a lot of pokemon profiles that need fixing
There are a lot of pokemon profiles that need fixing
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Just asking, doesn't @FinePoint disagree with this CRT?
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Well he doesn't say agree or disagree
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He didn't say that, but it was heavily implied.
Pretty sure this is a direct "disagreement" since he thinks the scaling is "invalid"
But eh, I can understand your reasoning.
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You are correct.
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- #78
You disagree or neutral?
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I disagree.
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The Sinjoh ruins event can straight up be accessed from the start of the game. If we take it seriously as a scaling point, everyone after Gym 1 would be Low 1-C. That's nonsense.
And arbitrarily limiting it to Red because of levels is disingenuous. I disagree with that part of the thread.
However, Red should indeed have a USUM key for the Battle Tree stuff, with everything that entails. Edit: rechecked the profile, Red already has said key. Seems speed was simply forgotten to be updated.
And arbitrarily limiting it to Red because of levels is disingenuous. I disagree with that part of the thread.
However, Red should indeed have a USUM key for the Battle Tree stuff, with everything that entails. Edit: rechecked the profile, Red already has said key. Seems speed was simply forgotten to be updated.
