Infinite speed and possibly Low 1-C for Trainer Red

[Hypercyber37]

The dimension of Arceus's avatars is a plane that even Giratina cannot reach on her own. However, Arceus's avatars are never completely invincible. Especially in the game universe. We have obtained and fought Arceus's avatars in many games.



Ethan obtained Arceus before Trainer Red Battle. Depending on the player's own will, we have the chance to use Arceus in the war. Since we do not know the details of battle, I recommend at least "possibly Low 1-C"

Infinite speed:
This is pretty simple. In USUM Games, Red's remanch match takes place after the Rainbow rocket and some Ultra beast fights.


And Red has a team that is higher level than all of them

Agree: @AyOgUyS @henryzx900ruly @Ebihara @Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
Disagree: @Jinx666 @FinePoint
Neutral:

 

[AyOgUyS]

Seems ok at a glance

 

[Hypercyber37]

Seems ok at a glance

You agree this?

 

[AyOgUyS]

You agree this?

Yea

 

[Hypercyber37]

Bump

 

[FinePoint]

Regarding Infinite Speed: Unless there's actual statements regarding this, I'd just call this Game Mechanics and not really valid for scaling.
You could theoretically fight and lose against a lot of trainers/Pokemon after dealing with Ultra Beasts.

Regarding Low 1-C: I'd say essentially the same thing, especially if we're using levels as a metric.

Plus, from a lore perspective, there's no reason to assume Arceus's avatar is using his full power in any given battle with his trainer.

"And I bestow upon thee a part of myself. I would walk this world together with thee. Show me how it appeareth in thine eyes."

"Show me thy bond."

He wants to experience battle and bonding on a human level, not godstomp every Pokemon he comes across. It would make plenty of logical sense for him to weaken himself enough for a battle to be fulfilling- that Trainer Red was actually challenging his full power is illogical.

 

[Jinx666]

Isnt this scrapped content? Are we allowed to use that for scaling, since the Arceus event never officially released?

Seems like a huge stretch from content too, to assume this vacationing red from USUM scales from all this back in HGSS, on the player assumption that they brought Arceus or another Creation Trio member to the battle with Red.

 

[FinePoint]

Isnt this scrapped content? Are we allowed to use that for scaling, since the Arceus event never officially released?

We don't allow cut content, no.

 

[Hypercyber37]

Regarding Infinite Speed: Unless there's actual statements regarding this, I'd just call this Game Mechanics and not really valid for scaling.
You could theoretically fight and lose against a lot of trainers/Pokemon after dealing with Ultra Beasts.

Regarding Low 1-C: I'd say essentially the same thing, especially if we're using levels as a metric.

Plus, from a lore perspective, there's no reason to assume Arceus's avatar is using his full power in any given battle with his trainer.


He wants to experience battle and bonding on a human level, not godstomp every Pokemon he comes across. It would make plenty of logical sense for him to weaken himself enough for a battle to be fulfilling- that Trainer Red was actually challenging his full power is illogical.

But it was given to Team Rainbow Rocket for the same reason.

As you can see from the videos, all of these events happened before the red fight. At least he should have gotten it "possibly" because there was a chance they would use it.

 

[Hypercyber37]

To put it more simply:

Ethan got Arceus before the Red battle so it is an option in the battle. That's why I suggested "possibly" low 1-C.

Also, in USUM games, he should be Infinite speed because he fights us after most of the ultra beast and rainbow rocket events and he is higher level than all of them

 

[Hypercyber37]

Bump

 

[Hypercyber37]

Look, this is much more than just a random event to get a Pokemon (even so, the meaningless Sinnoh Trio events in Sword and Shield were accepted ) We can fight and get Arceus in Legend Arceus and Gen 4 games in a valid way. In HGSS, they clearly added animations and even unknown pokemons for Arceus. Everything is in the video. This is not a simple legendary Pokemon event mechanic. If what Ethan and Elio use depends on the player's own will, this should not be called a simple game mechanic and should be added as "possibly".

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Pretty sure Arceus's dimension is for the real Arceus, not for his avatars.

 

[Hypercyber37]

Probably, but no one on this site takes scale from Arceus's avatar and that's ridiculous. Starting from the 14:50th second of the first video, a meaningful scene for Arceus is even placed and most of the video is based on dialogues about the "pseudo-event pokemon" Arceus.

Pretty sure Arceus's dimension is for the real Arceus, not for his avatars.

 

[Hypercyber37]

Bump

 

[Hypercyber37]

Bump

 

[FinePoint]

Look, this is much more than just a random event to get a Pokemon (even so, the meaningless Sinnoh Trio events in Sword and Shield were accepted ) We can fight and get Arceus in Legend Arceus and Gen 4 games in a valid way. In HGSS, they clearly added animations and even unknown pokemons for Arceus. Everything is in the video. This is not a simple legendary Pokemon event mechanic. If what Ethan and Elio use depends on the player's own will, this should not be called a simple game mechanic and should be added as "possibly".

Is it not cut content anyway?

 

[Hypercyber37]

Is it not cut content anyway?

Wdym?

 

[y3p_owo]

The Arceus event in HGSS isn't cut content and the Azure Flute was added back in BDSP via Legends Arceus save data once you've gotten the llama god himself in it.

 

[Hypercyber37]

The Arceus event in HGSS isn't cut content and the Azure Flute was added back in BDSP via Legends Arceus save data once you've gotten the llama god himself in it.

Can you explain it a little more clearly? I mean, do you see it as a game mechanic?

 

[henryzx900ruly]

henryzx900 is back
now i would say I agree but lets not be biased now, ill see where tshi goes

 

[Jinx666]

The Arceus event in HGSS isn't cut content and the Azure Flute was added back in BDSP via Legends Arceus save data once you've gotten the llama god himself in it.

the event in HGSS was never officially released though.

I mean its still in the games 'files' rather than just not being available entirely, but it definitely makes it even shakier when we already have to go take a mountain of assumptions to try and say Red fought Arceus.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

the event in HGSS was never officially released though.

I mean its still in the games 'files' rather than just not being available entirely, but it definitely makes it even shakier when we already have to go take a mountain of assumptions to try and say Red fought Arceus.

No, the Arceus event in Platinum was never released.

 

[Jinx666]

"The only way to access the Sinjoh Ruins is by bringing an Arceus from an event distribution or the Hall of Origin to the Ruins of Alph. The event is triggered by having Arceus as the player's walking Pokémon and entering the Ruins of Alph. However, due to the Azure Flute never being released in Generation IV, it is not possible to obtain an Arceus from the Hall of Origin without the use of glitches or cheating."
from Bulbapedia

If you cant get Arceus legit in the actual game, and its given via limited time event distribution then no, its not good enough to say that Ethan canonically owns the avatar of God and used it against Red.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Having an Arceus from other event distributions still counted.

 

[Jinx666]

Because you said so?

We're trying to discuss canon characters and what they actually would have access to in-lore. The kid who plays the game that got an Arceus from some Toys R Us event distribution or w/e isnt a paragon of that.

Arceus in its avatar form would clearly not be using its full power/speed whatsoever in pokemon battling either

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

It is exhausting to attempt to talk to you. "Erm we only go for the most watered down, mainstream playthrough of a game imaginable" Yeah, no. Give me the Poketopia Pokemon from Battle Revolution. Give me the Ranger Net Pokemon from the Pokemon Ranger games. Give me the GameStop distribution DS cards that can just infinitely distribute 1 Mythical per save file. This really doesn't matter, especially to an event that works with ANY Arceus distribution ever released.

 

[Jinx666]

Its not about being 'watered down' and 'mainstream'. Its about whats actually canon, and whats not based only on player's choice.

You cant just have your high-balled extreme composite version of a character. We're talking about what the fictional character ACTUALLY concretely does and goes through, which is tricky for Pokemon, but nonetheless its about being fair.

 

[Hypercyber37]

Its not about being 'watered down' and 'mainstream'. Its about whats actually canon, and whats not based only on player's choice.

You cant just have your high-balled extreme composite version of a character. We're talking about what the fictional character ACTUALLY concretely does and goes through, which is tricky for Pokemon, but nonetheless its about being fair.

What do you think for Infinite speed?

 

[Jinx666]

Conceptually its pretty ludicrous
For your reasoning though, game levels don't represent canonical power. We cant say Red is Infinite in speed because his Pokemon are at a game-progressing higher level than legendary static encounters. Game levels are generally just a gameplay mechanic and have no bearing on power alone. Same deal with stat distributions

 

[Hypercyber37]

Conceptually its pretty ludicrous
For your reasoning though, game levels don't represent canonical power. We cant say Red is Infinite in speed because his Pokemon are at a game-progressing higher level than legendary static encounters. Game levels are generally just a gameplay mechanic and have no bearing on power alone. Same deal with stat distributions

If it is in the same game, level symbolizes how strong your opponents are. In HGSS, Red is the highest level because he is our strongest opponenq. This is also valid in USUM games and Red's remanch match takes place after Team Rainbow Rocket and many ultra beast events. It can be evaluated as the highest probability as the lowest probability. Red fights with Elio's ultra beasts or the team that defeated Team Rainbow Rocket, there is nothing absurd or contradictory in this.

 

[Jinx666]

If it is in the same game, level symbolizes how strong your opponents are. In HGSS, Red is the highest level because he is our strongest opponenq. This is also valid in USUM games and Red's remanch match takes place after Team Rainbow Rocket and many ultra beast events. It can be evaluated as the highest probability as the lowest probability. Red fights with Elio's ultra beasts or the team that defeated Team Rainbow Rocket, there is nothing absurd or contradictory in this.

Game levels are genuinely just game-mechanics. We dont use them for trying to scale canonical power of a Pokemon whatsoever.

Personally dont think we should even have the Elio profile right now, since it doesnt align with the general consensus on what we do with these player-insert characters. Is Red not already infinite speed in general???

 

[Hypercyber37]

No. Levels symbolize your power. If you train your pokemon, they get stronger and level up. Elio is Inf speed because he defeats many pokemon with Inf speed. Isn't the ultimate goal of this game to complete the pokedex? If the dex we completed also includes Inf speed pokemon, why should we pass it off as a game mechanic? It also applies to Arceus' avatar. We have to get it to complete the dex. This is not a game mechanic, this is our ultimate goal.

Game levels are genuinely just game-mechanics. We dont use them for trying to scale canonical power of a Pokemon whatsoever.

Personally dont think we should even have the Elio profile right now, since it doesnt align with the general consensus on what we do with these player-insert characters. Is Red not already infinite speed in general???

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Inb4 "He doesn't canonically complete the Pokedex"

 

[Jinx666]

No. Levels symbolize your power. If you train your pokemon, they get stronger and level up. Elio is Inf speed because he defeats many pokemon with Inf speed. Isn't the ultimate goal of this game to complete the pokedex? If the dex we completed also includes Inf speed pokemon, why should we pass it off as a game mechanic? It also applies to Arceus' avatar. We have to get it to complete the dex. This is not a game mechanic, this is our ultimate goal.

Levels are game-mechanic progression. You arent getting Infinite Speed just because you faced a pokemon that was higher than the Lv45/whatever static enocunter of a Pokemon. Thats just ludicrous. Levels have nothiing to do with completing the Pokedex either, especially not in-lore

We should pass it off as a game-mechanic so we're not entertaining the huge contradictions and inconsistencies it causes by pretending everything in Pokemon is now 'infinite speed' because they were given a rare candy or smthn.

Given the whole concept of 'mythical pokemon' are that people are truly unsure they exist, just because theres a Pokedex number for them does not mean they're just something commonplace

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

"You don't get infinite speed for fighting someone with infinite speed"

 

[Jinx666]

You dont get infinite speed for fighting a rando pokemon thats has a higher in-game level than a creation trio member no.

 

[Hypercyber37]

1. Levels are training and development without them even your pokemons won't evolve

2. No not all pokemons have Inf speed only our pokemons and the characters we encounter in the story when we reach this level gain scale. We don't call a random rattata coming out of the grass inf speed

3. Being difficult doesn't mean being impossible. Alternative universes have already been confirmed in the pokemon world. In another time period red became the champion, in another universe leaf became the champion. In another universe the bad guys won and rainbow rocket was formed. Completing the pokedex is the ultimate goal of the story and does not affect other time per

Levels are game-mechanic progression. You arent getting Infinite Speed just because you faced a pokemon that was higher than the Lv45/whatever static enocunter of a Pokemon. Thats just ludicrous. Levels have nothiing to do with completing the Pokedex either, especially not in-lore

We should pass it off as a game-mechanic so we're not entertaining the huge contradictions and inconsistencies it causes by pretending everything in Pokemon is now 'infinite speed' because they were given a rare candy or smthn.

Given the whole concept of 'mythical pokemon' are that people are truly unsure they exist, just because theres a Pokedex number for them does not mean they're just something commonplace

 

[Jinx666]

Levels are game mechanics not representative of canonical power. Its literally just a method of game progression.
How exactly is any pokemon thats above Giratina's static level with 'Infinite Speed' then able to get faster?
Lets also not deny the tons and tons of Antifeats.

I mean given the creation trio are avatars that only hold a fraction of the power, then no, i wouldnt for sure say they battle using infinite speed, and more or less bases it off of what the characters can go through.

Idk what your last point is, but we're not compositing every single possible way a playthrough can go to make these profiles. Can we even just establish a general verse speed scaling before we try and keep upgrading individual characters too?

 

[Hypercyber37]

Levels are game mechanics not representative of canonical power. Its literally just a method of game progression.
How exactly is any pokemon thats above Giratina's static level with 'Infinite Speed' then able to get faster?
Lets also not deny the tons and tons of Antifeats.

I mean given the creation trio are avatars that only hold a fraction of the power, then no, i wouldnt for sure say they battle using infinite speed, and more or less bases it off of what the characters can go through.

Idk what your last point is, but we're not compositing every single possible way a playthrough can go to make these profiles. Can we even just establish a general verse speed scaling before we try and keep upgrading individual characters too?

I explained it 3 times. I won't do the 4. one. You can't explain anything to people who don't understand. I'll place the name in the Disagree section