Nnt/4Koa 4A Ap and MFTL speed

[Sasukesama0492]

Aslında 6 ay bile olmadı https://vsbattles.com/threads/king-of-chaos-4-a-upgrade.164529/ Bu crt de anında kabul edildi ve tartışıldı. See also this link

Pls English

 

[Jey-kun52]

Pls English

Bro ı though ı speak eng
I fix it

What is your opinion?

 

[Sasukesama0492]

Bro ı though ı speak eng
I fix it

What is your opinion?

I Agree

 

[Jey-kun52]

I Agree

Thanks

 

[karo_senpaii]

We can take 5 months as lowball, it is impossible for it to be 9 months because this time they would have to say 17 years ago instead of 16 years ago, I think midball is quite suitable cuz diodra dies in the holy war by dk and right after the cath arc he resurrects diodra but in exchange for bringing ironside to his side

Arthur's RW is very different because he created a dimension that contained it and sent the 7ds team there. Camelot has nothing to do with it in terms of both appearance and creation. There is no specific gravity and no specific formation. Camelot, on the contrary, is very orderly

I don't even understand where the 9months is coming from

Second point I'm not gonna argue with you much . I live it for staffs

 

[Jey-kun52]

I don't even understand where the 9months is coming from

There is no such thing as a 9-month situation. Lowball is 5 months and that is ok

Edit: I asked this to the person who made the old crt MeliodasDeUzyy and he said it was related to Percy's birth, this is not a logical time period anyway because it does not happen 16 years ago, it does it happen 17 years ago. It also breaks the specified time period in the series, the most logical is 5 months as lowball.

The timeframe was discussed in CRT, if you ask me I would say let's take the one that is accepted.

Second point I'm not gonna argue with you much . I live it for staffs

Fair

 

[Demon_Lord18]

SCALING:

With the success of the Demon King, the final combo reaches 4A's and Arthur's feat through creation allows us to get Ap. Chaos is here to keep the host alive so there is no reason for it to hold back

Characters that can be scaled to Arthur:
Meliodas;


Q361:What is Hawk Mama's Power Level, roughly? Impossible to measure.
Q362:What is Meliodas' current Power Level? Probably strong enough to get near Hawk Mama's.

took no damage from chaos attack while in base form, easily superior to lancelot, who can withstand Chaos attacks without damage. (base should be scaled)

Lancelot; Chaos retreated in fear after, Tanked an attack from chaos without damage.

7ds members; Ironside perceives them as a threat and states that Arthur will be injured in this situation and chaos is running away

If this were accepted, it would affect many more characters than just these.

 

[Jey-kun52]

If this were accepted, it would affect many more characters than just these.

This is just a new addition. This is not accepted in the old scaling. I got these from your crt tbh.

 

[Makai641001]

That's still like 9months but I guess that's fair.


I'm pretty sure NNT always has UES. UES isn't a guarantee for creation feats especially ones done via reality warping

His RW is done through Chaos Magic the same Energy he uses in his attacks.

Neo Camelot is an entirely different realm from what his RW does

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Bump

 

[FinePoint]

It doesn't seem like the AP calculation is actually accepted.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

It doesn't seem like the AP calculation is actually accepted.

Only time needs to be discussed here, the energy needed to create is already accepted in the Wiki, so we just need to stipulate a time and divide it by the energy

 

[FinePoint]

Only time needs to be discussed here, the energy needed to create is already accepted in the Wiki, so we just need to stipulate a time and divide it by the energy

I would still prefer if a CGM approved it, though 20 years does seem like a reasonable timeframe to me.

 

[Jey-kun52]

I would still prefer if a CGM approved it, though 20 years does seem like a reasonable timeframe to me.

Yes. The reason I put this was to see if it was reasonable. So do you agree with the crt completely?

 

[FinePoint]

Yes. The reason I put this was to see if it was reasonable. So do you agree with the crt completely?

I agree that a UES seems reasonable as well as the resulting scaling- but I don't think anything should be actually applied unless the calculation is accepted (and I'd like to hear any counter-arguments if they exist.)

 

[Jey-kun52]

I agree that a UES seems reasonable as well as the resulting scaling- but I don't think anything should be actually applied unless the calculation is accepted.

I understand, thank you. It will be easier after this crt is accepted.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

I would still prefer if a CGM approved it, though 20 years does seem like a reasonable timeframe to me.

It was accepted

 

[Jey-kun52]

It was accepted

Okay, thanks.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

I agree that a UES seems reasonable as well as the resulting scaling- but I don't think anything should be actually applied unless the calculation is accepted (and I'd like to hear any counter-arguments if they exist.)

Could you tag some staff members here?

 

[FinePoint]

Could you tag some staff members here?

Sure.

@KingTempest @Catzlaflame @Duedate8898 @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Mr. Bambu

 

[karo_senpaii]

Even though there is concrete evidence for pocket reality creations to qualify as an Attack Potency feat; it should not be assumed to scale to physical statistics without some notable scaling reasons. Examples include on screen demonstrations, examples of destruction, or information that the same pool of energy used to create said dimension can translate to the same amount of energy being used for other abilities including but not limited to physical strikes.


This is the biggest issue with the ap part I guess. UES gives you leeway when it comes to abilities or energy based attacks scaling to physicals. Creation feats are treated differently as you need to show evidence that similar amounts of energy that was used in the creation is used for combat as well. Just being the same source of energy isn't enough. The op so far has provided no evidence of such

 

[FinePoint]

This is the biggest issue with the ap part I guess. UES gives you leeway when it comes to abilities or energy based attacks scaling to physicals. Creation feats are treated differently as you need to show evidence that similar amounts of energy that was used in the creation is used for combat as well. Just being the same source of energy isn't enough. The op so far has provided no evidence of such

Well if the UES is shown to also amp physical stats, then it's probably fine, even if they don't explicitly have feats of causing that much destruction in combat- and I believe the OP did prove that their attacks in combat scale with their level of UE.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Well if the UES is shown to also amp physical stats, then it's probably fine, even if they don't explicitly have feats of causing that much destruction in combat- and I believe the OP did prove that their attacks in combat scale with their level of UE.

UES is for attacks. Like if they did a 4a attack then it would scale to their physicals. Creation feats are just separate, they need a statement that the energy put into creation can be used as an output in combat.

 

[FinePoint]

UES is for attacks. Like if they did a 4a attack then it would scale to their physicals. Creation feats are just separate, they need a statement that the energy put into creation can be used as an output in combat.

That conclusion would be implied by the fact they're using the same kind of energy- though I do see where you're coming from.

Though, if it does end up being controversial whether or not that can be extrapolated, we could always make it a Possibly instead.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Even though there is concrete evidence for pocket reality creations to qualify as an Attack Potency feat; it should not be assumed to scale to physical statistics without some notable scaling reasons. Examples include on screen demonstrations, examples of destruction, or information that the same pool of energy used to create said dimension can translate to the same amount of energy being used for other abilities including but not limited to physical strikes.


This is the biggest issue with the ap part I guess. UES gives you leeway when it comes to abilities or energy based attacks scaling to physicals. Creation feats are treated differently as you need to show evidence that similar amounts of energy that was used in the creation is used for combat as well. Just being the same source of energy isn't enough. The op so far has provided no evidence of such

The UES exists precisely so we don't need to rely on that kind of citation. It's rare to see something like "He's using the same amount of energy he used to create that thing" — that sounds like something written by someone crafting the story with powerscaling in mind.

If you need a citation to prove that a feat scales to physical stats, then the UES page shouldn't even exist.

In order to apply to a character's capacity to harm other characters, that is their usual Attack Potency, their Creation has to be connected to their other abilities. Often that is due to a common energy system, in which the same energy used for creation is used for attacks.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

UES is for attacks. Like if they did a 4a attack then it would scale to their physicals. Creation feats are just separate, they need a statement that the energy put into creation can be used as an output in combat.

Everything in NNT involves magic, which is already recognized as a UES on the wiki.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It is page 3 of this thread so I suppose I will ask, is the OP currently what I should be reading or is this one of those situations where the OP has slowly been supplanted by nefarious intermittent messages over the course of the thread?

 

[FinePoint]

It is page 3 of this thread so I suppose I will ask, is the OP currently what I should be reading or is this one of those situations where the OP has slowly been supplanted by nefarious intermittent messages over the course of the thread?

The OP is fine to read.
Most of the debate has just been specific scaling stuff or whether or not the Creation Feat applies to combat via the UES.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Here is more context for this part of the original post, as well as evidence that Magic = Darkness = Physical. Meliodas says that the Demon King went to the lake to recover his magic; as you can see in the comment below, this also increased his darkness and strength. It's worth noting that darkness can be seen in the Demon King's hands when he tests his magic.
DK himself says that he would recover his original power by absorbing the magic of the lake

The same happens with the Demon King; before, he was overpowered by base Meliodas, but upon gaining more darkness, he easily surpassed base meliodas. Upon gaining even more darkness, he easily surpassed Meliodas's amplified mark. The opposite also happens; when Derieri and Monspiet have their darkness removed, they faint.

 

[Jey-kun52]

It is page 3 of this thread so I suppose I will ask, is the OP currently what I should be reading or is this one of those situations where the OP has slowly been supplanted by nefarious intermittent messages over the course of the thread?

Can I ask your opinion about this crt?

 

[karo_senpaii]

The UES exists precisely so we don't need to rely on that kind of citation. It's rare to see something like "He's using the same amount of energy he used to create that thing" — that sounds like something written by someone crafting the story with powerscaling in mind.

If you need a citation to prove that a feat scales to physical stats, then the UES page shouldn't even exist.

No. Statements like "I've never seen energy on that level before" or "this attack requires a tremendous amount of energy" is enough to prove the attack is greater than what chaos can produce per second. A ton of statements like that exist . UES is to scale energy based attacks to physicals since it's all combat oriented.

Yes your creation attack is tied to others in UES but it still doesn't mean you can dish that level of energy used in creation also in combat. Look at the part of the faq I quoted.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

It is page 3 of this thread so I suppose I will ask, is the OP currently what I should be reading or is this one of those situations where the OP has slowly been supplanted by nefarious intermittent messages over the course of the thread?

AP started being discussed a few messages above.

Most of the debate focused on speed, and karo_senpaii's argument makes more sense to me, as shown here.

You're confused about something. When the wiki talks about travel speed they mean movement about long distances. Short burst of movement even if you you're moving your whole body is still combat speed.


In the scan there ludociel attacks zeldris. That's definitely combat speed and not travel speed. Ludociel statement is not even for travel speed. It can't be because he grace is specifically for combat.

This is not a case of even 2 separate scenes. It's one scene, first panel ludociel attacks zeldris at sol combat speed, Cusack intercepts him and then you now scale ludociel who is the source of the sol for the calc to 37× faster than his own source speed used for the calculation. That's some ridiculous scaling circulation.


In the calc itself there is an overhead panel where ludociel is further than the calc makes it seem but the person that made the calc just said it's inconsistent and won't use it.

No one is saying ludociel is limited to sol. Of course he isn't, we already accept him as ftl. But using a scan where he is clearly moving at sol combat speed , using it for a calculation to get someone faster and then scaling the same ludociel to it is ridiculous.

We have a 1c calc that doesn't rely on Ludociel's Flash and could be used, but characters who scale to it have already been tagged by light-based attacks, which would make the scaling inconsistent.

 

[Jey-kun52]

We have a 1c calc that doesn't rely on Ludociel's Flash and could be used, but characters who scale to it have already been tagged by light-based attacks, which would make the scaling inconsistent.

Yes, I disagree with Diane's calculation because it is inconsistent, (as you said. It causes inconsistency in the plot.) but there is no inconsistency in your calculation that I referenced. (Cusack s feat)

I put this because I don't have another blog, but what really interests me is Cusack's success

 

[Kaydee1648]

Was the method the DK used in creating this space specified?
if not, you’d be assuming it was a casual feat

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Everything in NNT involves magic, which is already recognized as a UES on the wiki.

Was the method the DK used in creating this space specified?
if not, you’d be assuming it was a casual feat

 

[Jey-kun52]

I noticed something diane is never below margaret ludo. she can fight dk, damage cath and scales above mertly who breaks chastiefol's guardian form.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

No. Statements like "I've never seen energy on that level before" or "this attack requires a tremendous amount of energy" is enough to prove the attack is greater than what chaos can produce per second.

I couldn’t find anything stating that on the UES page, although this might still serve as supporting evidence.
The Creation page states that the UES is used to scale it to attack potency — it’s not just for comparing attacks with each other.

In order to apply to a character's capacity to harm other characters, that is their usual Attack Potency, their Creation has to be connected to their other abilities. Often that is due to a common energy system, in which the same energy used for creation is used for attacks.

And just to be clear, we’re not talking about the Chaos here.

The FAQ doesn’t mention UES at all.

 

[karo_senpaii]

I couldn’t find anything stating that on the UES page, although this might still serve as supporting evidence.
The Creation page states that the UES is used to scale it to attack potency — it’s not just for comparing attacks with each other.

And just to be clear, we’re not talking about the Chaos here.

The FAQ doesn’t mention UES at all.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Creation_Feats. Read this portion sorry.

Also that's not supporting evidence.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Creation_Feats. Read this portion sorry.

That page states that in order to scale creation to potency, it must share the same energy source as the attack — and that a UES would be sufficient for that, since the example refers to Limited Energy Systems, which is one of the requirements for defining a UES.

Anyway, I'll wait for the staff's evaluation now — I don't want another back-and-forth page like the one we had with speed

 

[karo_senpaii]

That page states that in order to scale creation to potency, it must share the same energy source as the attack — and that a UES would be sufficient for that, since the example refers to Limited Energy Systems, which is one of the requirements for defining a UES.

Anyway, I'll wait for the staff's evaluation now — I don't want another back-and-forth page like the one we had with speed

No it just says common energy system and not UES. Also you're reading the wrong section, read the section for pocket reality