Onigashima, Flower Capital and the Bajrang Gun

[Damage3245]

@CloverDragon03 KingTempest has acknowledged that there may be some valid points for the Flower Capital of Wano Country not being 404 kilometers in diameter. Do you agree with that current calc or disagree with it?

 

[KingTempest]

How the hell did you ignore every other point that I said and only grabbed the thing that suit your message in order to try to get Clover to agree with something you agree with

Damage.

The OP said that the light reaching the bottom of the mini ocean made by the rain water is LESS THAN A KILOMETER in depth because light can reach the bottom.
That depth is MUCH LARGER than THE WIDTH OF WANO. Then it says that Onigashima is damn near THE SIZE OF THE SUNNY.

That was my ENTIRE POINT.

You are saying THAT WANO IS TINY.

"If you actually read my previous argument" IF YOU LOOKED AT THE IMPLICATIONS OF THE OP you would notice the consequence by using "light and water" as an argument to size.

What are we doing now

 

[Damage3245]

How the hell did you ignore every other point that I said and only grabbed the thing that suit your message in order to try to get Clover to agree with something you agree with

I'm not ignoring you, I promise, I just haven't responded to you yet. I wanted Clover to clarify if he disagreed with removing all of the calcs listed in the OP or just the Onigashima one.

 

[CloverDragon03]

@CloverDragon03 KingTempest has acknowledged that there may be some valid points for the Flower Capital of Wano Country not being 404 kilometers in diameter. Do you agree with that current calc or disagree with it?

Damage, why did you dodge KT's response? That's concerning (Edit: Nvm)

The perspective used in the pixel scaling raises some concerns about the Flower Capital Calc, so I'm not entirely sold on that one's validity, but for completely separate reasons

 

[Damage3245]

Damage, why did you dodge KT's response? That's concerning (Edit: Nvm)

The perspective used in the pixel scaling raises some concerns about the Flower Capital Calc, so I'm not entirely sold on that one's validity, but for completely separate reasons

Okay, thank you for clarifying.

It just helps me formulate my response so I know I don't want to waste time writing paragraphs defending the removal of the Flower Capital calculation if I only have to focus on Onigashima.

 

[KingTempest]

If the flower capital goes down to a tiny amount like the OP thinks then Onigashima goes down in the same breadth so all of this is moot if the OP (or you) tries to get a freaking 200 meter Onigashima due to it being smaller than the Flower Capitol

 

[Damage3245]

If the flower capital goes down to a tiny amount like the OP thinks then Onigashima goes down in the same breadth so all of this is moot if the OP (or you) tries to get a freaking 200 meter Onigashima due to it being smaller than the Flower Capitol

That's not where I was going with my next post. I'm currently writing a response to your point regarding a tiny Wano (which, believe me, I agree would be a problem) but I have to gather some scans and organize my points so it'll take a little while to respond to you. Hopefully by later tonight.

 

[KingTempest]

That's not where I was going with my next post. I'm currently writing a response to your point regarding a tiny Wano (which, believe me, I agree would be a problem) but I have to gather some scans and organize my points so it'll take a little while to respond to you. Hopefully by later tonight.

I want you to remember that you are not the OP. Nami_Kami is. And the OP's point is that whatever the Flower Capital is, Onigashima is smaller.
So even if you sit here and try to get the Flower Capital to be innumerably small, the OP's point will stretch with your argument regardless if it is your intention or not.

The main issue that nobody is speaking about (including myself) is that Onigashima is noted to be huge but the flower capital looks like... a capital.

 

[Damage3245]

Damage.

The OP said that the light reaching the bottom of the mini ocean made by the rain water is LESS THAN A KILOMETER in depth because light can reach the bottom.
That depth is MUCH LARGER than THE WIDTH OF WANO. Then it says that Onigashima is damn near THE SIZE OF THE SUNNY.

That was my ENTIRE POINT.

You are saying THAT WANO IS TINY.

"If you actually read my previous argument" IF YOU LOOKED AT THE IMPLICATIONS OF THE OP you would notice the consequence by using "light and water" as an argument to size.

I appreciate that you are going in detail in the implication that would arise as a result from this - but it doesn't seem to me that you're taking into account the implications that would arise from the current calculation either.

Let me show you what I mean. This is the map you cited earlier. Using your own measurements and the current value for Onigashima's size, we get:

Onigashima Base Width = 13 px = 57103.142857143 m

Wano Country Walls = 154 px = 672060.065934 m

So, 672 kilometers for the depth of Wano's sea, in other words 672 kilometers down from the surface of Wano to the surface of Old Wano.

There are a few issues I take with this.

Firstly, there is the scene in which Sukiyaki, Robin and Law descend from Sukiyaki's room in the Flower Capital down the stairs to the cavern at the level where Old Wano lies.

They travelled all that way down the stairs all in the same night that the celebrations and festivities are going on, when Aramaki is on his way to attack the Flower Capital. Much of their travel time is cut out but we can infer that it took them a while. If the depth of Wano was a few kilometers then this kind of journey time, while lengthy, still fits within the same night as it would take no more than a few hours to get down there.

If the depth of Wano was 672 kilometers as your map implies, then that be a journey of several days, if not weeks of constant walking. It is an impractically long distance for the scene to make sense.

Secondly, we get multiple views of the exterior walls of Wano and the waterfalls of Wano.

You pointed out earlier that the small size of the Queen Mama Chanter compared to the massively large of the waterfall was a reason to go against our proposal. That this was proof that Wano Country's depth couldn't be small. All I'm asking is, does that hold up with these visuals?

Using the Queen Mama Chanter, YmTheSuper was able to calculate a height of the waterfall to be nearly 5 kilometers tall. The map that you cited, if it was proportional, would've put them closer to 672 kilometers...

Both the Thousand Sunny and the Queen Mama Chanter make it up the waterfalls quickly thanks to the Koi fish; a few panels for the Sunny and in the Queen Mama Chanter's case we can see the scene of Kaido panicking as Big Mom's ship climbs the waterfalls. It's clearly events that are happening over the course of mere minutes, if not seconds. This makes sense for fish swimming up the length of a waterfall a few kilometers high... It makes considerably less sense if these fish were traversing hundreds of kilometers vertically. These Koi fish swim alongside the Sunny at comparable speeds; the Sunny doesn't have the capability to sail hundreds of kilometers in several seconds.

I think you can see why this would be an issue? The waterfalls are only a few times wider than the Queen Mama Chanter itself, and they're only a few times taller than they are wide.

If Wano Country was truly deeper than it was wide like you said, then not one of these visuals for the waterfalls would make any sense. Even if we didn't calculate the size of Onigashima at all, calculating the size of these waterfalls would make Wano Country tiny.

So the best way that this all makes sense if that your initial argument - that the depth of Wano is much deeper than Wano is wide - isn't correct.

Nobody is arguing that Onigashima is as big as the Thousand Sunny.

Nobody is arguing that Wano Country is 500 meters wide.

If there was just one potential issue that we were raising, I get why you would be skeptical and why the current calculation would be appealing to use.

But it's not just one issue being raised here, it's several; the trip down the stairs to old Wano matches more closesly with a smaller size than the current method, the visuals of the waterfall matches more closely with a smaller size than the current method, the visuals of the interior of the Skull Dome based on the known height of the Numbers makes more sense with a smaller size than the current method, the visibility of dim light in the depths of Old Wano make sense with a smaller size than the current method, it's the fact that the capital city of Wano Country is only a few kilometers across by all clear visuals of it and Onigashima is visibly not dwarfing the entire city.

With so many different contentions against the current calc, I don't think accusations of "bad faith" that I've seen raised by CloverDragon are fair here. Even if you don't agree with the conclusion, we've looked at and presented a lot of evidence here.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Damage.

The OP said that the light reaching the bottom of the mini ocean made by the rain water is LESS THAN A KILOMETER in depth because light can reach the bottom.
That depth is MUCH LARGER than THE WIDTH OF WANO. Then it says that Onigashima is damn near THE SIZE OF THE SUNNY.

That was my ENTIRE POINT.

You are saying THAT WANO IS TINY.

"If you actually read my previous argument" IF YOU LOOKED AT THE IMPLICATIONS OF THE OP you would notice the consequence by using "light and water" as an argument to size.

I gave 2 different ends, 1 or 6 KM, depending of whether you want to use only what's found in the manga or whether you want to use external information too. Even if you disagree with the first end of 1KM, the second of 6KM end stands on it's own. Although you have failed to refute any of those ends as far as I'm concerned. My argument is supported by the narrative AND more than enough visuals. If you think that a calculation of a few nitpicked panels is more reliable than that, that's all good. We'll just have to disagree on this one.

You seem to be strawmanning again. Nobody ever said anything about Onigashima being Sunny sized. The map you're using, as explained previously, is not suggested to be to scale.

 

[Nami_Kami]

I appreciate that you are going in detail in the implication that would arise as a result from this - but it doesn't seem to me that you're taking into account the implications that would arise from the current calculation either.

Let me show you what I mean. This is the map you cited earlier. Using your own measurements and the current value for Onigashima's size, we get:

Onigashima Base Width = 13 px = 57103.142857143 m

Wano Country Walls = 154 px = 672060.065934 m

So, 672 kilometers for the depth of Wano's sea, in other words 672 kilometers down from the surface of Wano to the surface of Old Wano.

There are a few issues I take with this.

Firstly, there is the scene in which Sukiyaki, Robin and Law descend from Sukiyaki's room in the Flower Capital down the stairs to the cavern at the level where Old Wano lies.

They travelled all that way down the stairs all in the same night that the celebrations and festivities are going on, when Aramaki is on his way to attack the Flower Capital. Much of their travel time is cut out but we can infer that it took them a while. If the depth of Wano was a few kilometers then this kind of journey time, while lengthy, still fits within the same night as it would take no more than a few hours to get down there.

If the depth of Wano was 672 kilometers as your map implies, then that be a journey of several days, if not weeks of constant walking. It is an impractically long distance for the scene to make sense.

Secondly, we get multiple views of the exterior walls of Wano and the waterfalls of Wano.

You pointed out earlier that the small size of the Queen Mama Chanter compared to the massively large of the waterfall was a reason to go against our proposal. That this was proof that Wano Country's depth couldn't be small. All I'm asking is, does that hold up with these visuals?

Using the Queen Mama Chanter, YmTheSuper was able to calculate a height of the waterfall to be nearly 5 kilometers tall. The map that you cited, if it was proportional, would've put them closer to 672 kilometers...

Both the Thousand Sunny and the Queen Mama Chanter make it up the waterfalls quickly thanks to the Koi fish; a few panels for the Sunny and in the Queen Mama Chanter's case we can see the scene of Kaido panicking as Big Mom's ship climbs the waterfalls. It's clearly events that are happening over the course of mere minutes, if not seconds. This makes sense for fish swimming up the length of a waterfall a few kilometers high... It makes considerably less sense if these fish were traversing hundreds of kilometers vertically. These Koi fish swim alongside the Sunny at comparable speeds; the Sunny doesn't have the capability to sail hundreds of kilometers in several seconds.

I think you can see why this would be an issue? The waterfalls are only a few times wider than the Queen Mama Chanter itself, and they're only a few times taller than they are wide.

If Wano Country was truly deeper than it was wide like you said, then not one of these visuals for the waterfalls would make any sense. Even if we didn't calculate the size of Onigashima at all, calculating the size of these waterfalls would make Wano Country tiny.

So the best way that this all makes sense if that your initial argument - that the depth of Wano is much deeper than Wano is wide - isn't correct.

I'd also like to add that the proportions of the map is clearly not to scale, as by that logic Mount Fuji's top half would be more than half of Wano's width, and that is, in fact, not true. Not even close.

 

[Dalesean027]

What are the current arguments here

 

[Damage3245]

What are the current arguments here

I can provide a TL;DR but it'll have to be in an hour or two.

 

[KingTempest]

I'd also like to add that the proportions of the map is clearly not to scale, as by that logic Mount Fuji's top half would be more than half of Wano's width, and that is, in fact, not true. Not even close.

There is a difference between "not fit to scale" and "shows things bigger"

A map can show a continent 1000x bigger than a country in there. Ofc it's not fit to scale so it's not 1000x bigger, but it doesn't mean that the continent isn't bigger than the country.

 

[KingTempest]

What are the current arguments here

I'll provide a TLDR of my own liking before my arguments get misconstrued. @Kachon123 and @Damage3245 can do so with their own side if they wish.

The OP is saying that because Onigashima can fit in the mini-sea created by the rainwater held in, and because in certain areas of irl and in-series that light can't reach deep depths of water, Onigashima is smaller than a 1km (or even 6km) because light can't reach that deep but we can see light in certain places, effectively making Onigashima immensely tiny.

Due to this and the showings of the walls that border Wano being even larger than Wano in every showing, it effectively doesn't just make Onigashima less than a few km, but it makes the entirety of the nation of Wano under a km. The multi nation of Wano with different countries from all around the world is now the size of a neighborhood, when Wano is clearly not that tiny.

Onigashima is shown and portrayed to be absolutely massive, as an island that dwarves ships over 60 meters tall, yet Damage and Nami_Kami keep utilizing fallacious arguments tying to the points contradicted in this thread that show that small or inconsistent creatures are not valid enough to use (which is weird because Damage said a creature had a stated size but then ended up saying that the creature isn't supposed to be that big by using another creature, but I digress).

Basically, a repeat of the many threads saying "small size because the author doesn't want their characters to look like dots". And it's annoying that it's getting traction because in itself it is fallacious.

The OP is trying to downgrade Onigashima but in turn they fail to realize that they end up just downgrading Wano to ridiculous extents.

The flower capital is now dwarved as well, because it's drawn to look like... a town, even though it's larger than Onigashima.

They keep saying "no one is saying this" but if you try to say that the entire depth of the original nation of Wano under the sea is under 6km, you turn a continent of multi-nations into a handful of football fields and the island of Onigashima into a basketball court.

I honestly don't have the time nor the care to go back and forth with them so I'm honestly just waiting for staff agreeals/disagreeals/evaluations, so unless an evaluating CGM other than Damage has a question for me regarding my point to further understand my point, I do not care to argue much unless I see something that is just blatantly wrong. So far Damage has agreed, Clover has disagreed, and we're waiting for more staff.

Because Clover disagreed fully due to my arguments and points, I'll just post the reasons of his disagreeal below.

This stuff should do it really, I'm not exactly convinced by any rebuttals here. There's a lot of cherrypicking necessary evils to display things as points against a larger size, and I think you should know from previous discussions like with MHA that this is a massive no for me. Like, I think Onigashima is in fact, that huge.

Your approach is fundamentally different from mine, because what I'm using comes from a clearer narrative intent given that the size calculation is the result of a stated size (Oars and the Numbers being 67 meters tall), whereas you expect everything drawn in a visual medium to be completely consistent which is a losing battle and then taking any inconsistencies as a sign to go as low as humanly possible. If you want to play the semantics game, every scan is "cherrypicked" to an extent, but I'd rather take something that comes from a stated size. Something stated signifies narrative intent more than anything else.

Also even in the worst case if we were to use the newer lower size, that still is in direct contention with so many of the OP's points that result in Wano being comically small

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Onigashima is shown and portrayed to be absolutely massive, as an island that dwarves ships over 60 meters tall, yet Damage and Nami_Kami keep utilizing fallacious arguments tying to the points contradicted in this thread that show that small or inconsistent creatures are not valid enough to use (which is weird because Damage said a creature had a stated size but then ended up saying that the creature isn't supposed to be that big by using another creature, but I digress).

I saw multiple calculations using Sunny's size as basis to reach the size of onigashima they would range from 10km to 15km which is about 4 to 5 times smaller than the current accepted size, it's much closer to the 6km the OP is proposing, so why you using it as an argument to support 57km island size I have no idea.

Basically, a repeat of the many threads saying "small size because the author doesn't want their characters to look like dots". And it's annoying that it's getting traction because in itself it is fallacious.

The OP is trying to downgrade Onigashima but in turn they fail to realize that they end up just downgrading Wano to ridiculous extents.

The flower capital is now dwarved as well, because it's drawn to look like... a town, even though it's larger than Onigashima.

Flower capital is accepted as 404km real world capital cities even among the biggest ones are less than 1/4 of what is accepted and look like this

This is the city where Oda was born and raised

And this is how Oda choose to portray the flower Capital

They keep saying "no one is saying this" but if you try to say that the entire depth of the original nation of Wano under the sea is under 6km, you turn a continent of multi-nations into a handful of football fields and the island of Onigashima into a basketball court.

I honestly don't have the time nor the care to go back and forth with them so I'm honestly just waiting for staff agreeals/disagreeals/evaluations, so unless an evaluating CGM other than Damage has a question for me regarding my point to further understand my point, I do not care to argue much unless I see something that is just blatantly wrong. So far Damage has agreed, Clover has disagreed, and we're waiting for more staff.

Because Clover disagreed fully due to my arguments and points, I'll just post the reasons of his disagreeal below.

Honestly reading KingTempest's arguments even more in this comment seems a lot more like bad faith, he focus on how the size of the city is going to be affected by the decrease in size and completely ignores how the giant size affects everything else, multiple of those comparisons were made in this very post and many of those inconsistencies are shown in the OP

 

[KingTempest]

Literally nobody cares about real life cities so idky half of your argument resides in that
The OP's result isn't saying "Onigashima is 6km long", it's saying "it's under it" because light can reach.

You don't even know what the hell the implications are.

The 6km end is wrong because that's pitch blackness when there's still light. It's just the OP's way of trying to appease to the masses by saying "oh it could be bigger". The only end in the OP that works with the argument is the 1km.

You literally have 0 idea what the arguments are and you made a point founded on pure nothingness.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Literally nobody cares about real life cities so idky half of your argument resides in that

I'm showing how Oda could have possibly shown the flower capital without making it look really small like he did, as the OP already mentions small buildings are clearly visible, I'm showing how the way Oda portrayed the flower Capital is clearly meant to be much smaller than 400km, heck Oda made a much better job when he showed Dressrosa

The OP's result isn't saying "Onigashima is 6km long", it's saying "it's under it" because light can reach.

The OP is using various arguments of why Onigashima and flower capital being that big makes no sense, I don't necessarily agree with 1 to 6km range but it sure as hell sounds more reasonable than almost 60km.

You don't even know what the hell the implications are.

I know for sure than the each floor clearly isn't over a 1km big.

The 6km end is wrong because that's pitch blackness when there's still light. It's just the OP's way of trying to appease to the masses by saying "oh it could be bigger". The only end in the OP that works with the argument is the 1km.

You literally have 0 idea what the arguments are and you made a point founded on pure nothingness.

So your argument about Sunny being dwarfed by the island is supposed to be nothingness because it actually supports a much smaller size now?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I saw multiple calculations using Sunny's size as basis to reach the size of onigashima they would range from 10km to 15km which is about 4 to 5 times smaller than the current accepted size, it's much closer to the 6km the OP is proposing, so why you using it as an argument to support 57km island size I have no idea.

That's just isn't true, probably inaccurate scalings

Sunny = 63 px (56m)

Gate width = 688.5 px (612 m)

Gate width = 7 px (612 m)

Onigashima width = 315 px (27540 m)

And thats just 2x less, using things that are also slightly lowballed as the ship isn't directly between them and is closer to the screen, appearing bigger from our pov (would be around 34400 m using the top corners of the rock between sunny... 1.6 x less than the current)

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

That's just isn't true, probably inaccurate scalings

Sunny = 63 px (56m)

Gate width = 688.5 px (612 m)

That's not the gate those are statues after they already went past the gate

Gate width = 7 px (612 m)

Onigashima width = 315 px (27540 m)

And thats just 2x less, using things that are also slightly lowballed as the ship isn't directly between them and is closer to the screen, appearing bigger from our pov

You used a little doodle how would that even count?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

That's not the gate those are statues after they already went past the gate

Sunny = 63 px (56m)

Gate width = 890.4 px (791.46 m)
There you go then, more accurate scaling

Gate width = 7 px (791.46 m)

Onigashima width = 315 px (35615.7 m)

1.6x less than current

You used a little doodle how would that even count?

Because it's that tiny compared to Onigashima? Like what, that's how small Oda himself made it, it's even closer to the screen compared to all of Onighashima

 

[KingTempest]

Sunny = 63 px (56m)

Gate width = 890.4 px (791.46 m)
There you go then, more accurate scaling

Gate width = 7 px (791.46 m)

Onigashima width = 315 px (35615.7 m)

1.6x less than current

Wow, good job

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Sunny = 63 px (56m)

Gate width = 890.4 px (791.46 m)
There you go then, more accurate scaling

You just put the line on the furthest rock which is already inside.
In this scan you can clearly see that the part of the entrance with the side walls, it can barely fit 3 ships clearly not 14

Gate width = 7 px (791.46 m)

Onigashima width = 315 px (35615.7 m)

1.6x less than current


Because it's that tiny compared to Onigashima? Like what, that's how small Oda himself made it, it's even closer to the screen compared to all of Onighashima

No, you are using a doodle instead of the actual manga art, heck this thread is exacly how Oda is very innacurate with his art but for some reason a doodle is now important?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

In this scan you can clearly see that the part of the entrance with the side walls, it can barely fit 3 ships clearly not 14

that's because there's a hill in the way blocking the view... At this point your just lying, arguing out of bad faith or have no clue what your on about

No, you are using a doodle instead of the actual manga art, heck this thread is exacly how Oda is very innacurate with his art but for some reason a doodle is now important?

That's an in depth model and scaling of it

Same way he did for whole cake island... That IS the actual manga art and scaling used in the manga

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

that's because there's a hill in the way blocking the view... At this point your just lying, arguing out of bad faith or have no clue what your on about

That hill is on the inside of the onigashima after the tunnel of the entrance it's also closer to the camera.
That scan clearly shows the ships on the entrance the thing you were supposed to measure.

That's an in depth model and scaling of it

Same way he did for whole cake island... That IS the actual manga art and scaling used in the manga

Both are just doodles, use an actual finished image of the manga.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Both are just doodles, use an actual finished image of the manga.

I don't need to.

That hill is on the inside of the onigashima after the tunnel of the entrance it's also closer to the camera.
That scan clearly shows the ships on the entrance the thing you were supposed to measure.

You don't know what your talking about

This is in a way how it would look without the hill being there, with the same angles the ships are facing forward

I'm simply going to ignore you at this point because you're clearly trying to dismiss everything out of bad faith

 

[Nami_Kami]

That's just isn't true, probably inaccurate scalings

Sunny = 63 px (56m)

Gate width = 688.5 px (612 m)

Gate width = 7 px (612 m)

Onigashima width = 315 px (27540 m)

And thats just 2x less, using things that are also slightly lowballed as the ship isn't directly between them and is closer to the screen, appearing bigger from our pov (would be around 34400 m using the top corners of the rock between sunny... 1.6 x less than the current)

It's incredibly easy to pick and choose panels to calculate. Let me demonstrate.

Sunny length = 39 meters, entry width = 315.658 meters off it

Onigashima diamater = 5.1KM scaling from the entry

Pixel-scales are not absolute, especially when yours make baseless assumptions about the PoV and the statue positioning relative to the entry, and is inconsistent with majority of visuals when it comes to the island. Your calculation is virtually meaningless when the narrative tells us that Onigashima is less than 6KM in height.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

It's incredibly easy to pick and choose panels to calculate. Let me demonstrate.

Sunny length = 39 meters, entry width = 315.658 meters off it

that isn't even the width of the entrance... The ships are way past the fox statues, which the entrance is located behind of

Onigashima diamater = 5.1KM scaling from the entry

Ahh yes, this map layout is definitely meant to be scaled, the shrine is onigashima sized

Pixel-scales are not absolute, especially when yours make baseless assumptions about the PoV and the statue positioning relative to the entry, and is inconsistent with majority of visuals when it comes to the island. Your calculation is virtually meaningless when the narrative tells us that Onigashima is less than 6KM in height.

The difference is your pixel scaling is wrong and inaccurate, a calculation based off of not to scale showcases of Onighashima, which mine isn't.

Nothing narratively tells us it's less than 6km, that's based off of your own headcanon via an assumption of how shallow the water is by the statement of "dim light" and comparing that to Oni and Wano which will ACTUALLY go against the narrative of how big things are

The way to convey important messages to the castles of each region is by "Yabumi" (arrows). In Wano Country, arrows are sent across thousands of miles.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I'm busy... So I will not be responding anymore, I've also said enough. I'll let others continue on this if they wish instead

 

[Nami_Kami]

that isn't even the width of the entrance... The ships are way past the fox statues, which the entrance is located behind of

This actually makes Onigashima even smaller, funnily enough.

They are PAST the entry, which is the circular area we see on the map and is actually WIDER than the entry itself.

You can also see that the entry had snow on it, while the walls of the circular part past it don't, AND you see the fence leading to the bridge next to the ships.

Ahh yes, this map is definitely meant to be scaled, the shrine is onigashima sized

You're using a different panel from the one I used, which is plainly dishonest. You can see my ACTUAL scan above, and it contains no such contradiction.

I'd also like to say that since you say that an inaccurate structure entails that a map is not to use, you should be equally against tempest's argument since it used a map with far more contradictions to it than the panel you showed here ( Which isn't even the panel I used ).

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I'd also like to say that since you say that an inaccurate structure entails that a map is not to use, you should be equally against tempest's argument since it used a map with far more contradictions to it than the panel you showed here ( Which isn't even the panel I used ).

Tempest did not use a map to accurately scale Oni, he used it as an argument how bs it is to use that

Yes, using that specific map/layout to scale isn't accurate...

You're using a different panel from the one I used, which is plainly dishonest. You can see my ACTUAL scan above, and it contains no such contradiction.

you're being dishonest in it not being the same map layout... Like be fr

 

[Nami_Kami]

you're being dishonest in it not being the same map layout... Like be fr

They are literally 2 different drawings. Just because they look similar does not mean a contradiction from a whole other panel applies to mine, when it's not even present in it.

 

[Damage3245]

What are the current arguments here

The proposal in the OP is to remove the currently used size calc for Onigashima (57 km in diameter) and the two size calcs that are derived from that, the Flower Capital (404 km in diameter) and Luffy's Bajrang Gun attack (89 km long, 32 km across).

The OP's points covering why they should be removed are in the opening post.

KingTempest delivered his initial counter-arguments here. He addresses size inconsistency issues of both Onigashima and the waterfalls of Wano, and takes issue with the light-based argument for the depth of Wano's sea. You can read all of his points there.

I address KingTempest's points here, and after that there is a bit of back and forth between us on these points so you can just scroll down that page a bit for the full discussion.

What KT focuses on a bit later is primarily the counter-argument that if we reduce Onigashima's size to something small, i.e. between less than 1 kilometer to less than 6 kilometers, that we end up making the size of the entire Wano Country itself tiny, and he uses a side-profile view of Wano Country for this argument.

I wrote this post here on the second page addressing the argument and explained how using the same side-profile with the currently accepted calc would also introduce significant contradictions anyway. There are significantly fewer narrative, logical and visual issues with going with the smaller size than the currently accepted size.

That pretty much brings the discussion up to the present because that post and the points I brought up have not been responded to yet. The thread honeslty isn't very long at this point so should be fine to go over all of the relevant posts.

 

[Damage3245]

The difference is your pixel scaling is wrong and inaccurate, a calculation based off of not to scale showcases of Onighashima, which mine isn't.

Nothing narratively tells us it's less than 6km, that's based off of your own headcanon via an assumption of how shallow the water is by the statement of "dim light" and comparing that to Oni and Wano which will ACTUALLY go against the narrative of how big things are

Credit to Arc7Kuroi for this:

各郷の城に大事を伝えるのは“矢文”である
Letters affixed to arrows are used to communicate important messages to castles across every region
「ワノ国」矢文は千里を越え伝達する
In Wano, letter arrows transmit across grand distances

The kanji for “grand distances” 千里 literally translates to 1000 ri (which is like 4000 km); however, it’s far more commonly used to simply denote a large distance in stylized literature (like comics or novels), and is less likely to take on its hyperliteral meaning. That doesn’t mean it can’t be literal, but given the context is “letter arrows” (a historical Japanese means of delivering messages) and 千里 historically was used as a common hyperbole, it probably just means “large distance”

This supports the official translation for it:

 

[Deceived3596]

The 6km end is wrong because that's pitch blackness when there's still light. It's just the OP's way of trying to appease to the masses by saying "oh it could be bigger". The only end in the OP that works with the argument is the 1km.

It is really important that this issue is addressed. We need an explicit, held position by the proponents for a smaller Onigashima and Wano. Especially when the OP is technically proposing a size below 1km with the Sunlight argument.

We either accept this argument fully, consequences and all. Or this argument should be explicitly discarded, and a different argument should be raised.

 

[Damage3245]

It is really important that this issue is addressed. We need an explicit, held position by the proponents for a smaller Onigashima and Wano. Especially when the OP is technically proposing a size below 1km with the Sunlight argument.

We either accept this argument fully, consequences and all. Or this argument should be explicitly discarded, and a different argument should be raised.

For the record there are already multiple different arguments that have been raised; it doesn't hinge on just that issue alone.

 

[Deceived3596]

For the record there are already multiple different arguments that have been raised; it doesn't hinge on just that issue alone.

I know. I am saying it should be explicitly denounced or explicitly corroborated. If denounced, then we can focus on other arguments without that existing in the back of everyone's mind. If corroborated, it's easier for the opposition to understand what you're actually arguing, specifically. It's just a way to cut out any unneeded ambiguity.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Credit to Arc7Kuroi for this:


This supports the official translation for it:

the "great distances" here would mean thousands of miles... As it's already been supported by road to laugh tale that people could've felt the affects of Bajrang gun from thousands of miles away which wano's distances is based off of

 

[Damage3245]

the "great distances" here would mean thousands of miles... As it's already been supported by road to laugh tale that people could feel the affects of Bajrang gun from thousands of miles away

I don't think is particularly relevant; not only is that seemingly just idea notes that Oda wrote (which didn't necessarily make it into the manga and nobody is shown feeling the reverberations from that far away), that could also be a translation mistake.

And even more importantly, our argument has never been that Wano Country is a very short distance across. This is being misconstrued from what our argument actually is which focuses on just Onigashima, the Flower Capital, and the Bajrang Gun. It is better to save these types of arguments for if we actually have a revision on the Wano Country itself.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I don't think is particularly relevant; not only is that seemingly just idea notes that Oda wrote (which didn't necessarily make it into the manga and nobody is shown feeling the reverberations from that far away), that could also be a translation mistake.

Either way, thousand of miles or not... Wano narratively is way bigger than the "way less than 6 km" arguments you guys make to downplay the size of Oni

And even more importantly, our argument has never been that Wano Country is a very short distance across. This is being misconstrued from what our argument actually is which focuses on just Onigashima, the Flower Capital, and the Bajrang Gun. It is better to save these types of arguments for if we actually have a revision on the Wano Country itself.

Yee but you can't just nitpick every small thing to downplay Oni size when those sizes and nitpicks doesn't even have any validity when looking at how it also affects others

As a removal... It's just not fair at all, as a thing to look out for, for in upcoming information is fine... Like the "debunk" is still made out of an assumption that has it's own issues